Rise of The Perma-Dodger

Ezareth

Zielijiek wrote: »

Ezareth,

We get it. You can't kill dodge rollers. Figure it out man. Btw, try Soul Assault, you may win from now on.

I kill dodge rollers all the time. You don't get it because you didn't (or can't) read anything. Soul assault much like Meteor only works on bad players with any consistency. I love when people soul assault me.

Cody wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

After seeing it from both sides of the fence (Magic Sorc since launch, recent convert to stamina) i'd say Ball of Lighting/Bolt Escape and dodge roll are equal or on par.

Both skills do the same thing which is avoid damage and move the player. Ball of Lighting Absorbs spells and teleports the Sorc farther, Roll Dodge avoids a single target projectile, but doesn't move the player any where near as far as bolt escape does.

Its a two way street. I think the fact that high regen builds allow folks to spam Bolt Escape and Dodge roll way more then we used to is probably part of the problem. I think if we can cut down on the infinite resource regen builds, a lot of these problems will solve themselves.

I think a big part of the complain about dodge roll is this:

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Crusader+Set

That set extends the time you dodge, in essence it makes you much harder to hit. Its no more OP then BOL(Actually less) look at the traits on that set! total trash, look at how much weapon damage, etc you have to give up to use that set effectivly.

You must use Vet 10 regen food, and forgo weapon damage for stamina recovery to be able to pull it off. Its just like a Sorc who specs to Bolt Escape as much as possible, they give up a considerable amount of damage and such to be able to do that, its no different with dodge roll.

I still think if we can get rid of the infinite resource insane high regen builds, these problems will sort themselves.

This has nothing to do with Bolt escape or Sorcs at all.

Dodge roll is nothing like Bolt escape (read the previous half dozen pages on this) so they aren't equal or on par as they are nothing alike. If you want to compare them you then you can't by any build in the game that exists bolt escape forever. You can Dodge roll forever however with many builds in the game. The real issue is it is exceedingly easy to create a build that allows you to dodge roll whenever you need to without concern for cost.

I'm not trying to get Dodge roll nerfed, only change it so that people who want to do this have to actually trade something to be able to do it. Stamina regeneration and Stamina Cost Reduction and Medium armor are not tradeoffs.

When I use seducer or archmage or both to reduce the cost of my spells I lose the ability to use martial knowledge and adroitness or other sets that give me quite a bit of bonus damage. You can use a Medium armor build with stamina reduction enchants as many classes and combos in this game and dodge roll for several minutes straight. That's the issue, not that it is too powerful or that people are using a set with it.

Let's not forget that dodge rolls will grant resistance and knock opponents off balance when dodging abilities before long as well. The top end stacking of this ability needs to be limited in some way that only impacts those who are abusing it.

they are doing that with dodge rolling?

hmm... i do not forsee great things.

Yeah the champion system heavily benefits stamina builds and dodge rollers. Check out some of those passives.

jelliedsoup

Ezareth wrote: »

Zielijiek wrote: »

Ezareth,

We get it. You can't kill dodge rollers. Figure it out man. Btw, try Soul Assault, you may win from now on.

I kill dodge rollers all the time. You don't get it because you didn't (or can't) read anything. Soul assault much like Meteor only works on bad players with any consistency. I love when people soul assault me.

Cody wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

After seeing it from both sides of the fence (Magic Sorc since launch, recent convert to stamina) i'd say Ball of Lighting/Bolt Escape and dodge roll are equal or on par.

Both skills do the same thing which is avoid damage and move the player. Ball of Lighting Absorbs spells and teleports the Sorc farther, Roll Dodge avoids a single target projectile, but doesn't move the player any where near as far as bolt escape does.

Its a two way street. I think the fact that high regen builds allow folks to spam Bolt Escape and Dodge roll way more then we used to is probably part of the problem. I think if we can cut down on the infinite resource regen builds, a lot of these problems will solve themselves.

I think a big part of the complain about dodge roll is this:

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Crusader+Set

That set extends the time you dodge, in essence it makes you much harder to hit. Its no more OP then BOL(Actually less) look at the traits on that set! total trash, look at how much weapon damage, etc you have to give up to use that set effectivly.

You must use Vet 10 regen food, and forgo weapon damage for stamina recovery to be able to pull it off. Its just like a Sorc who specs to Bolt Escape as much as possible, they give up a considerable amount of damage and such to be able to do that, its no different with dodge roll.

I still think if we can get rid of the infinite resource insane high regen builds, these problems will sort themselves.

This has nothing to do with Bolt escape or Sorcs at all.

Dodge roll is nothing like Bolt escape (read the previous half dozen pages on this) so they aren't equal or on par as they are nothing alike. If you want to compare them you then you can't by any build in the game that exists bolt escape forever. You can Dodge roll forever however with many builds in the game. The real issue is it is exceedingly easy to create a build that allows you to dodge roll whenever you need to without concern for cost.

I'm not trying to get Dodge roll nerfed, only change it so that people who want to do this have to actually trade something to be able to do it. Stamina regeneration and Stamina Cost Reduction and Medium armor are not tradeoffs.

When I use seducer or archmage or both to reduce the cost of my spells I lose the ability to use martial knowledge and adroitness or other sets that give me quite a bit of bonus damage. You can use a Medium armor build with stamina reduction enchants as many classes and combos in this game and dodge roll for several minutes straight. That's the issue, not that it is too powerful or that people are using a set with it.

Let's not forget that dodge rolls will grant resistance and knock opponents off balance when dodging abilities before long as well. The top end stacking of this ability needs to be limited in some way that only impacts those who are abusing it.

they are doing that with dodge rolling?

hmm... i do not forsee great things.

Yeah the champion system heavily benefits stamina builds and dodge rollers. Check out some of those passives.

Your defence of sorcs and criticism of dodge rolling just shows what you play, nothing else.

trimsic_ESO

You can do a very simple test: a 1v1 combat, one magicka class who can stack damage shield vs one stamina class who can dodge roll. You will end up always to the same result: the stamina class will exhaust his stamina pool way before the magicka class exhausts his magicka pool.

A damage shield is way more efficient than a dodge roll. With a damage shield you can often absorb two or three hits. With a dodge roll, you can only avoid one hit.

If dodge rolls were to be nerf'd, damage shields would have to be nerf'd twice harder.

Zielijiek

Ezareth wrote:

Yeah the champion system heavily benefits stamina builds and dodge rollers. Check out some of those passives.

So what does Bastion do for Hardened Ward, Healing Ward, and Whitestrakes?

Soarin'

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

You can do a very simple test: a 1v1 combat, one magicka class who can stack damage shield vs one stamina class who can dodge roll. You will end up always to the same result: the stamina class will exhaust his stamina pool way before the magicka class exhausts his magicka pool.

A damage shield is way more efficient than a dodge roll. With a damage shield you can often absorb two or three hits. With a dodge roll, you can only avoid one hit.

If dodge rolls were to be nerf'd, damage shields would have to be nerf'd twice harder.

I agree with Trismic here, the main advantage of roll dodge is that it mitigates ALL damage for an attack, a shield will only absorb damage equal to its hit point strength. Fact is that no attacks currently exist in game that can burst a shield down in 1 hit so the advantage here of the dodge roll is somewhat negated.

I have found shield stacking much more efficient as a defence mechanic, I can drop shields and tank with them whilst stam regens then block letting magicka pool regen, then shield again letting the HP/stam regen kick in. You can tank effectively using all 3 resource pools which with their combined regens makes this far more effective than tanking on one pool alone.

I still think blocking in game is a bit of an issue, keep in mind I only really started using it since its nerf and my DK has no problems whatsoever. Block damage mitigation should be relevant to your equipped weapon, a staff or bow should not mitigate as much as a shield for instance.

RinaldoGandolphi

Ezareth wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

After seeing it from both sides of the fence (Magic Sorc since launch, recent convert to stamina) i'd say Ball of Lighting/Bolt Escape and dodge roll are equal or on par.

Both skills do the same thing which is avoid damage and move the player. Ball of Lighting Absorbs spells and teleports the Sorc farther, Roll Dodge avoids a single target projectile, but doesn't move the player any where near as far as bolt escape does.

Its a two way street. I think the fact that high regen builds allow folks to spam Bolt Escape and Dodge roll way more then we used to is probably part of the problem. I think if we can cut down on the infinite resource regen builds, a lot of these problems will solve themselves.

I think a big part of the complain about dodge roll is this:

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Crusader+Set

That set extends the time you dodge, in essence it makes you much harder to hit. Its no more OP then BOL(Actually less) look at the traits on that set! total trash, look at how much weapon damage, etc you have to give up to use that set effectivly.

You must use Vet 10 regen food, and forgo weapon damage for stamina recovery to be able to pull it off. Its just like a Sorc who specs to Bolt Escape as much as possible, they give up a considerable amount of damage and such to be able to do that, its no different with dodge roll.

I still think if we can get rid of the infinite resource insane high regen builds, these problems will sort themselves.

This has nothing to do with Bolt escape or Sorcs at all.

Dodge roll is nothing like Bolt escape (read the previous half dozen pages on this) so they aren't equal or on par as they are nothing alike. If you want to compare them you then you can't by any build in the game that exists bolt escape forever. You can Dodge roll forever however with many builds in the game. The real issue is it is exceedingly easy to create a build that allows you to dodge roll whenever you need to without concern for cost.

I'm not trying to get Dodge roll nerfed, only change it so that people who want to do this have to actually trade something to be able to do it. Stamina regeneration and Stamina Cost Reduction and Medium armor are not tradeoffs.

When I use seducer or archmage or both to reduce the cost of my spells I lose the ability to use martial knowledge and adroitness or other sets that give me quite a bit of bonus damage. You can use a Medium armor build with stamina reduction enchants as many classes and combos in this game and dodge roll for several minutes straight. That's the issue, not that it is too powerful or that people are using a set with it.

Let's not forget that dodge rolls will grant resistance and knock opponents off balance when dodging abilities before long as well. The top end stacking of this ability needs to be limited in some way that only impacts those who are abusing it.

Yes it is, bolt escape and dodge roll are both escape skills. Furthermore its not possible to dodge roll forever, I have nearly 1.8k stamina regen, ( i can push this to around 2k or so probably) 20+ points in champ stamina cost reduction, 20+ in stamina regen, 3 stamina regen enchants, and I guarantee you that your bolt escape will cover more then twice as much ground as I can dodge rolling.

Both bolt escape and dodge rolling are good, one better then others in certain situations. I dont have the magic to spam.BOL anymore and their are times I wish I did because dodge rolling wont cut it. There is pro and cons to both.

Lastly, dodge rollers have to give up just as much. We can't use Hundings Rage, Morag ting, shadow walker, etc if we want to dodge roll a lot, were forced to give up the best stamina and weapon damage/ crit sets in the game to do it. Unless you want run out of stamina and die real quick.


I think dodge roll, bolt escape, and stamina cost reductions should just be left alone..it does cost stamina to dodge so it makes sense they reduce it, just like magic cost reductions reduce healing costs or anything associated with magic, isn't it only purdent stamina cost reductions reduce the costs of using anything that uses stamina?

Look on the stamina side, I can see folks frustrations with shields, when someone lethal arrow + light attack + poison injection combo with surge/ momentum buffed weapon damage and it don't even scratch hardened ward, I understand folks frustrations.


I wont call for a nerf, but with an escape mechanism like ball of lighting and a nice shield like hardened ward, sorcs have it nice from a survivability perspective. Try playing without a damage shield. I no longer have the magic to make it viable, If I didn't have dodge roll, I would be a sitting duck. calling for a nerf to dodge roll is hypocritical and taking that away would be no different then taking hardened ward away from light armor sorc builds, they wouldn't be viable. Furthermore bastion continues to make Ward stronger

Both dodging and bolting both have their uses and can be equally annoying, I wont call for nerfs to either, and making stamina cost reduction not apply to block or dodge will be ok when magic cost reduction no longer applies to healing or damage shields.

Laerwen

This dodge rolling stupidity is getting worse every day. Everyone is doing it now.

Panda244

I don't have issue with it... They can't dodge flame lash.


Besides, complaining about the fact that Rollerblades can dodge roll forever is silly, @Ezareth Sorcs can Bolt Escape/Streak/Ball of Light behind terrain and recharge Magicka and do that forever. How is it any different?

Magicka Nightblades can spam Cloak and get away from combat or make every one of your attacks miss forever, especially my Altmer NB. I can spam Cloak and Double Take forever and never run out of Magicka, don't even need a Potion, 36k Magicka and 2k Recovery is just that good.

Dodge Roll just works better in open fields I guess, Curse, Soul Assault, Magicka Detonation, blow the Rollerblade up and move on with your life.... or just do what I do when you're fighting what you can't catch/kill, ignore it!

It's entertaining watching a zerg of EP die and having a Sorcerer or two survive and spam BoL to get away like. "Sorry guys! I'll come back for you, I promise!"


If you want to mess with an ability that can be spammed to get away from combat easily you're going to need to look at Mist Form & Morphs, Bolt Escape & Morphs, Cloak & Morphs, because as you pointed out, all of these abilities are pretty much spammable when you build for it, and don't tell me Ball of Light isn't spammable, all you need to do is hide behind a rock for 4 seconds and you can use it 3 more times. And 3 times is enough to get away from everyone but the people spamming Crit Charge.

Ezareth

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

You can do a very simple test: a 1v1 combat, one magicka class who can stack damage shield vs one stamina class who can dodge roll. You will end up always to the same result: the stamina class will exhaust his stamina pool way before the magicka class exhausts his magicka pool.

A damage shield is way more efficient than a dodge roll. With a damage shield you can often absorb two or three hits. With a dodge roll, you can only avoid one hit.

If dodge rolls were to be nerf'd, damage shields would have to be nerf'd twice harder.

Tell that to AoE BBQ @corx3. He had no problem dodge rolling every one of my attacks that were dodgeable last night while every single time he attacked me he not only took out my shields but he took a good 50% of my health and knocked me back pretty much instantly. I'd almost guarantee he ended the fight with nearly full stamina minus the final wrecking blow that killed me. Just because you guys are having problems with Damage Shields, doesn't mean damage shields are a problem. Damage shields have just as many counters as dodge rolling does.

But once again this isn't about damage shields, or bolt escape or Sorcs. It isn't even about dodge roll itself....it is about the fact that you can reduce the cost of dodge roll to a negligible amount and maintain a nearly pure damage build with no tradeoffs.

Zielijiek wrote: »

Ezareth wrote:

Yeah the champion system heavily benefits stamina builds and dodge rollers. Check out some of those passives.

So what does Bastion do for Hardened Ward, Healing Ward, and Whitestrakes?

Is Bastion a Champion System Passive? No. It increases Hardened Ward and Healing Ward (not sure about Whitestrakes), so what is your point? Let me know when you have one.

Soarin' wrote: »

I agree with Trismic here, the main advantage of roll dodge is that it mitigates ALL damage for an attack, a shield will only absorb damage equal to its hit point strength. Fact is that no attacks currently exist in game that can burst a shield down in 1 hit so the advantage here of the dodge roll is somewhat negated.

Not true at all I have my damage shield with over 60 points into Bastion killed in 1 hit all the time. Constantly. Wrecking Blow, Lethal Arrow, Power Overload, DK heavy Staff attacks. It receives zero mitigation and any damage that exceeds its absorb is then blew into the targets health also with zero mitigation.
[/quote]

woodsro wrote: »

Yes it is, bolt escape and dodge roll are both escape skills. Furthermore its not possible to dodge roll forever, I have nearly 1.8k stamina regen, ( i can push this to around 2k or so probably) 20+ points in champ stamina cost reduction, 20+ in stamina regen, 3 stamina regen enchants, and I guarantee you that your bolt escape will cover more then twice as much ground as I can dodge rolling.

Both bolt escape and dodge rolling are good, one better then others in certain situations. I dont have the magic to spam.BOL anymore and their are times I wish I did because dodge rolling wont cut it. There is pro and cons to both.

Lastly, dodge rollers have to give up just as much. We can't use Hundings Rage, Morag ting, shadow walker, etc if we want to dodge roll a lot, were forced to give up the best stamina and weapon damage/ crit sets in the game to do it. Unless you want run out of stamina and die real quick.


I think dodge roll, bolt escape, and stamina cost reductions should just be left alone..it does cost stamina to dodge so it makes sense they reduce it, just like magic cost reductions reduce healing costs or anything associated with magic, isn't it only purdent stamina cost reductions reduce the costs of using anything that uses stamina?

Look on the stamina side, I can see folks frustrations with shields, when someone lethal arrow + light attack + poison injection combo with surge/ momentum buffed weapon damage and it don't even scratch hardened ward, I understand folks frustrations.


I wont call for a nerf, but with an escape mechanism like ball of lighting and a nice shield like hardened ward, sorcs have it nice from a survivability perspective. Try playing without a damage shield. I no longer have the magic to make it viable, If I didn't have dodge roll, I would be a sitting duck. calling for a nerf to dodge roll is hypocritical and taking that away would be no different then taking hardened ward away from light armor sorc builds, they wouldn't be viable. Furthermore bastion continues to make Ward stronger

Both dodging and bolting both have their uses and can be equally annoying, I wont call for nerfs to either, and making stamina cost reduction not apply to block or dodge will be ok when magic cost reduction no longer applies to healing or damage shields.

Dodge Roll is *not* an escape skill. It's an evade skill, there's a huge difference in the distinction. Bolt Escape can be coupled with Dodge Roll to become a more effective Escape. Dodge Roll by itself can be used to escape if there are safe havens close by but usually a dodge roller using it to escape *by itself* instead of attack ends up dying.

Your first issue is you're using Stamina Regen enchants instead of Stamina Cost reduction enchants. Why you think that is even remotely a good idea, especially as a Sorc and reading my thread is beyond me.

Secondly Stamina cost reduction(Warlord) champion points don't impact dodge rolls...tumbling does.

Secondly, you *can* use good sets as well as a dodge roll set. The Requirements are Stamina/Magicka Drink. Medium Armor. and Stamina Cost Reduction enchants. If you can get even 1 or 2 Stamina regen passives on your sets then you're Golden.

In your case you should be a Werewolf, be running full Medium Armor (28% Dodge roll reduction, 28% Stamina Regen) be using Tri-pots (+20%) and with 20 points into stamina regen

You could be running both full Shadow Walker and Way of the Air sets (There are plenty of other combos as well) to get 3 Stamina Regen bonuses.

Base Regen 514
3 Set bonuses (373)
V10 Mag/Stam Drink 372

1259 Base
1448 Werewolf
1800 Medium Armor
2052 Tri-Pot
20 Points into Mooncalf: 2218 Magicka Regen

With 20 points into Tumbling the cost of your dodge roll would be reduced to 2062 Stamina from the base 3591.

With this while popping Tripots you could dodge roll every 1.72 seconds without every dropping below 100% stamina.

Keep in mind that you're a freaking Sorc! You don't have a Racial bonus or a Class bonus that benefits playing a stamina build. There are players who have it far easier. Bosmer have 21% more stamina regen. Redguard 9%. Nightblades have 30% plus abilities that increase it by another 10%. Dks have stamina regen options as well.

With your current build my suggestions wouldn't impact you at all since you're not even using Stamina Cost reduction enchants to start with. It just seems like you're drinking the kool-aid or something here. You usually are way off base, but this is over the top. Can't even Scratch Hardened Ward? What an absurd comment.

As far as Bastion making Ward Strong, Damage Scaling in the champion System *far* exceeds the defensive increase provided by stacking points into Bastion. For one bastion is a single ability with rapidly diminishing returns and there are at least 2 abilities to increase most physical attacks in the game that will diminish far slower since they're put into mulitple abilities, not to mention those increasing abilities are multiplicative with other damage increasing abilities and passives while Basiton is not.

Iyas

What a wall of text. Play a stamina build and tell me how you perform with dodge rolling.

All the 'i shout out how imba something is and prove it with some theorycrafting'. You simply want the game easier for your playstyle.

Nothing more.

Ezareth

Iyas wrote: »

What a wall of text. Play a stamina build and tell me how you perform with dodge rolling.

All the 'i shout out how imba something is and prove it with some theorycrafting'. You simply want the game easier for your playstyle.

Nothing more.

jelliedsoup

Ezareth wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

What a wall of text. Play a stamina build and tell me how you perform with dodge rolling.

All the 'i shout out how imba something is and prove it with some theorycrafting'. You simply want the game easier for your playstyle.

Nothing more.

Sorry rants and gifs have reached their limit of effectiveness in this thread.

Ezareth

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

What a wall of text. Play a stamina build and tell me how you perform with dodge rolling.

All the 'i shout out how imba something is and prove it with some theorycrafting'. You simply want the game easier for your playstyle.

Nothing more.

Sorry rants and gifs have reached their limit of effectiveness in this thread.

Sorry actual replies to people who didn't read the thread, obviously understand nothing about its content, and still think their 2 cents is adding anything useful have reached their limit as well.

Cody

woodsro wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

After seeing it from both sides of the fence (Magic Sorc since launch, recent convert to stamina) i'd say Ball of Lighting/Bolt Escape and dodge roll are equal or on par.

Both skills do the same thing which is avoid damage and move the player. Ball of Lighting Absorbs spells and teleports the Sorc farther, Roll Dodge avoids a single target projectile, but doesn't move the player any where near as far as bolt escape does.

Its a two way street. I think the fact that high regen builds allow folks to spam Bolt Escape and Dodge roll way more then we used to is probably part of the problem. I think if we can cut down on the infinite resource regen builds, a lot of these problems will solve themselves.

I think a big part of the complain about dodge roll is this:

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Crusader+Set

That set extends the time you dodge, in essence it makes you much harder to hit. Its no more OP then BOL(Actually less) look at the traits on that set! total trash, look at how much weapon damage, etc you have to give up to use that set effectivly.

You must use Vet 10 regen food, and forgo weapon damage for stamina recovery to be able to pull it off. Its just like a Sorc who specs to Bolt Escape as much as possible, they give up a considerable amount of damage and such to be able to do that, its no different with dodge roll.

I still think if we can get rid of the infinite resource insane high regen builds, these problems will sort themselves.

This has nothing to do with Bolt escape or Sorcs at all.

Dodge roll is nothing like Bolt escape (read the previous half dozen pages on this) so they aren't equal or on par as they are nothing alike. If you want to compare them you then you can't by any build in the game that exists bolt escape forever. You can Dodge roll forever however with many builds in the game. The real issue is it is exceedingly easy to create a build that allows you to dodge roll whenever you need to without concern for cost.

I'm not trying to get Dodge roll nerfed, only change it so that people who want to do this have to actually trade something to be able to do it. Stamina regeneration and Stamina Cost Reduction and Medium armor are not tradeoffs.

When I use seducer or archmage or both to reduce the cost of my spells I lose the ability to use martial knowledge and adroitness or other sets that give me quite a bit of bonus damage. You can use a Medium armor build with stamina reduction enchants as many classes and combos in this game and dodge roll for several minutes straight. That's the issue, not that it is too powerful or that people are using a set with it.

Let's not forget that dodge rolls will grant resistance and knock opponents off balance when dodging abilities before long as well. The top end stacking of this ability needs to be limited in some way that only impacts those who are abusing it.

Yes it is, bolt escape and dodge roll are both escape skills. Furthermore its not possible to dodge roll forever, I have nearly 1.8k stamina regen, ( i can push this to around 2k or so probably) 20+ points in champ stamina cost reduction, 20+ in stamina regen, 3 stamina regen enchants, and I guarantee you that your bolt escape will cover more then twice as much ground as I can dodge rolling.

Both bolt escape and dodge rolling are good, one better then others in certain situations. I dont have the magic to spam.BOL anymore and their are times I wish I did because dodge rolling wont cut it. There is pro and cons to both.

Lastly, dodge rollers have to give up just as much. We can't use Hundings Rage, Morag ting, shadow walker, etc if we want to dodge roll a lot, were forced to give up the best stamina and weapon damage/ crit sets in the game to do it. Unless you want run out of stamina and die real quick.


I think dodge roll, bolt escape, and stamina cost reductions should just be left alone..it does cost stamina to dodge so it makes sense they reduce it, just like magic cost reductions reduce healing costs or anything associated with magic, isn't it only purdent stamina cost reductions reduce the costs of using anything that uses stamina?

Look on the stamina side, I can see folks frustrations with shields, when someone lethal arrow + light attack + poison injection combo with surge/ momentum buffed weapon damage and it don't even scratch hardened ward, I understand folks frustrations.


I wont call for a nerf, but with an escape mechanism like ball of lighting and a nice shield like hardened ward, sorcs have it nice from a survivability perspective. Try playing without a damage shield. I no longer have the magic to make it viable, If I didn't have dodge roll, I would be a sitting duck. calling for a nerf to dodge roll is hypocritical and taking that away would be no different then taking hardened ward away from light armor sorc builds, they wouldn't be viable. Furthermore bastion continues to make Ward stronger

Both dodging and bolting both have their uses and can be equally annoying, I wont call for nerfs to either, and making stamina cost reduction not apply to block or dodge will be ok when magic cost reduction no longer applies to healing or damage shields.

well put

trimsic_ESO

@Ezareth A few days ago, I ran after a sorc for about 10 minutes dealing him 1,200k damage without being even close to kill him. I was trying to determine how long that sorc could maintain his shields up. I think I could have run after him for the whole eternity.

I have about 2k stam regen when buffed, 3 stamina cost reduction glyphes, and about 10 points in dodge reduction cost, and believe me or not, but I can't dodge for ever. After 30s-60s, my stamina pool is depleted. A sorc can damage shield for ever, while dealing damage.

So yes, a nerf is required. But it's not dodge roll that has to be nerf'd.

All this thread is actually about people whining because some stamina players are a bit more difficult to kill since 1.6. They were used to kill them while watching the TV, and now they have to play well. Oh my God.

Iyas

Next time i make a gif for you ezareth, this seems the way to communicate now.

Zielijiek

This thread.

Btw, Basion isn't a passive, you are correct good sir. So, bolstering shield strength to the max without having to have 30 points in a specific tree, I find that a greater bonus than 600 armor/spell resist any day.

Wait until you see 360+ Cps - just wait for Ezareth's tears when that happens!

RinaldoGandolphi

Ezareth wrote: »

Dodge Roll is *not* an escape skill. It's an evade skill, there's a huge difference in the distinction. Bolt Escape can be coupled with Dodge Roll to become a more effective Escape. Dodge Roll by itself can be used to escape if there are safe havens close by but usually a dodge roller using it to escape *by itself* instead of attack ends up dying.

Your first issue is you're using Stamina Regen enchants instead of Stamina Cost reduction enchants. Why you think that is even remotely a good idea, especially as a Sorc and reading my thread is beyond me.

Secondly Stamina cost reduction(Warlord) champion points don't impact dodge rolls...tumbling does.

Secondly, you *can* use good sets as well as a dodge roll set. The Requirements are Stamina/Magicka Drink. Medium Armor. and Stamina Cost Reduction enchants. If you can get even 1 or 2 Stamina regen passives on your sets then you're Golden.

In your case you should be a Werewolf, be running full Medium Armor (28% Dodge roll reduction, 28% Stamina Regen) be using Tri-pots (+20%) and with 20 points into stamina regen

You could be running both full Shadow Walker and Way of the Air sets (There are plenty of other combos as well) to get 3 Stamina Regen bonuses.

Base Regen 514
3 Set bonuses (373)
V10 Mag/Stam Drink 372

1259 Base
1448 Werewolf
1800 Medium Armor
2052 Tri-Pot
20 Points into Mooncalf: 2218 Magicka Regen

With 20 points into Tumbling the cost of your dodge roll would be reduced to 2062 Stamina from the base 3591.

With this while popping Tripots you could dodge roll every 1.72 seconds without every dropping below 100% stamina.

Keep in mind that you're a freaking Sorc! You don't have a Racial bonus or a Class bonus that benefits playing a stamina build. There are players who have it far easier. Bosmer have 21% more stamina regen. Redguard 9%. Nightblades have 30% plus abilities that increase it by another 10%. Dks have stamina regen options as well.

With your current build my suggestions wouldn't impact you at all since you're not even using Stamina Cost reduction enchants to start with. It just seems like you're drinking the kool-aid or something here. You usually are way off base, but this is over the top. Can't even Scratch Hardened Ward? What an absurd comment.

As far as Bastion making Ward Strong, Damage Scaling in the champion System *far* exceeds the defensive increase provided by stacking points into Bastion. For one bastion is a single ability with rapidly diminishing returns and there are at least 2 abilities to increase most physical attacks in the game that will diminish far slower since they're put into mulitple abilities, not to mention those increasing abilities are multiplicative with other damage increasing abilities and passives while Basiton is not.

My apologies, I meant Stamina cost reduction enchants not regen, I have been running 3 cost reduction enchants since i switched. I am a Breton, but in the case of a Sorc its for good reason. The Magic Cost Reduction and Max Magic makes it possible to keep Critical Surge and Boundless Storm up as needed much easier, and Surge + Momentum allows me to have both a HOT and a good chunk heal(Surge) when i need it adding some flexibility. I can hit over 50% crit right now and haven't even gotten the Champ Passive for the 12% yet. Its also far more friendly to pop Streak occasionally when in melee with two handed if you need that short stun to finish someone off. The 10% max magic and cost reduction makes this easier on my resource pools. The downside is i don't have the bosmer or redguard stamina bonus nor the nightblade passive, but i do have Bound Armaments for more max stamina and an 11% increase to heavy attack damage.

I do have points in both Warlord and Tumbling. I thought about going Werewolf, but decided on Vampire instead. I not only have a 10% boost to magic and stamina regen, improved stealth movement speed, but Clouding Swarm is too good for me to pass up.

I didn't take Tri-pots into consideration, but with The Air Set + 3 pieces of Nights Silence + Purple drink i can hit a little over 1900 stamina regen if im not mistaken.(Just an example) This includes 20 points in Mooncalf, 7 pieces of Med Armor, and the +10% Vamp passive. Tri-pot should put that over 2k. That wouldn't be as good as a Bosmer WW nightblade, but its not terrible either.

I was going to run Shadow Walker, but I have found the Covenant Eagle Eye set to be very good. I use it in conjunction with Focused Aim and it gives me an 8 meter increase in the range of my bow abilities. This is not counting when close a keep i get even more with the reach passive. It allows me to hit from farther away, while also making it easier to stay out of range of interrupts. Its insane how far it can reach which has its own advantages.

I was messing around the other night(still haven't decided 100% on what gear i want to use, Crusader and Air set is good but still weighing other options), and just for giggles i had my weapon damage up to i want to say...2.5k or so, perhaps a bit more. Anyways, a few times i popped Surge from stealth(weapon damge boost) Focused Aim + Light Attack + Poison Injection and seen it all absorbed by Ward spam. Now please understand, I can put that rotation on a full out tank wearing 7 pieces of heavy armor and put a huge dent in his HP, while not even putting a scratch on the Sorc's HP bar. Again, I won't call for any kind of damage shield nerf, I am just saying i "understand or sympathize" with how these folks can get frustrated with shield stacking from this perspective. I just wait until their shield is down now and instant kill them with a 3 attack burst(4 if camo hunter procs)

This is also why after now seeing things from the opposite side of the fence, dodge roll and such should be left alone. If magic users are able to absorb damage with shields(in essence trading magic for a temporary extension of max HP as well as being able to heal and burst heal) Stamina users should be able to dodge roll, cheap if speced that way, to avoid damage.

Please understand, Magic Sorcs should absolutely stack magic and use Ward, it makes sense for them to do so. I can't see any positives to stacking HP as a magic based Sorc, there is simply no incentive to.


I think Damage Shields should be left alone, and I think dodge roll should be left alone As both stamina and magic users should be allowed to enjoy their cheese. (for now)

After the Nirnhoned nonsense is addressed(which after seeing it in action, you were right it does need adjusted) Magic Sorcs are in a very good place. The crux comes down to this:

If Sorc's can Ward and Ball of Lighting away and run to avoid fighting, run from zerg, or set up more favorable fights, then stamina users should be able to barrell roll. Both of these mechanics are equally annoying to both parties on both sides of the fence. As a magic Sorc i used to get annoyed that dodge rollers could dodge my Mage's Wrath executes, and Crystal Frags, Crushing Shock, etc. I am sure the stamina user is equally annoyed that i could stack Hardned Ward, Heal up with Healing Ward, and Bolt Escape into the sun set.

At this juncture, one can't exist without the other, Both are equally annoying, yet they must co-exist. It will continue this way until certain core game mechanics are addressed.

Do understand, I do not want this to turn into an argument. I know we both have our views, and we both do our best to express them in a respectful manner. I have said my piece on this issue. I am not drinking any kool-aid, and I now give you the floor for your closing statements on the issue, as I do respect you as not only a player, but as big part of this community. You go out of your way to help other Sorc's, that says a lot about you, it speaks volumes actually. Regardless, its been educational talking to you, i always pickup something new speaking to you, so thank you for that.

Ezareth

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@Ezareth A few days ago, I ran after a sorc for about 10 minutes dealing him 1,200k damage without being even close to kill him. I was trying to determine how long that sorc could maintain his shields up. I think I could have run after him for the whole eternity.

I have about 2k stam regen when buffed, 3 stamina cost reduction glyphes, and about 10 points in dodge reduction cost, and believe me or not, but I can't dodge for ever. After 30s-60s, my stamina pool is depleted. A sorc can damage shield for ever, while dealing damage.

So yes, a nerf is required. But it's not dodge roll that has to be nerf'd.

All this thread is actually about people whining because some stamina players are a bit more difficult to kill since 1.6. They were used to kill them while watching the TV, and now they have to play well. Oh my God.

I cast 800 ultimate in overload at a Templar the other night and didn't kill him. He wasn't even using shields, he just healed through it spamming the same spell over and over. I determined that the templar had to be using magicka regen as I was and he could in theory spammed his heals forever. I know I could have tried CCing him and other things but sometimes I like to test things like this and at the end of the encounter when he continued on his merry way with me drained of ultimate I was glad to see templar healing was the counter to my damage.

How much Medium armor are you wearing? 2K stam regen when buffed is less than I had in my video, and 10 points in dodge cost reduction is the same as I have right now. Hell I have 1300 stam regen buffed and I'm a magicka sorc, and also have 3 Stamina cost reduction glyphs.

*some* sorcs can damage shield forever, but most can't. Believe it or not, not every sorc is running around with 3K Magicka resist like I am.

The other night I had a 17 minute fight with a 20 man raid group. They probably did 3 million damage to me and didn't kill me but it had nothing to do with sorcs being OP. The reason they didn't kill me is because they did very steady and predictable damage to me with very counterable forms of damage. I reflected meteors back at them, I purged soul assaults and Jesus beams, and I dodge rolled snipes. They were pretty much all bad players. No crit charge spam, no fear, no petrify, no coordinated burst, just all following me around a resource trying to sporadically kill me. They were playing to my *strengths* not to my weaknesses. Is that my fault or theirs? You obviously did the same to the sorc you were playing, just as I did to the templar I fought. I was playing to his strengths, I only should have killed him if he was bad.

Zielijiek wrote: »

This thread.

Btw, Basion isn't a passive, you are correct good sir. So, bolstering shield strength to the max without having to have 30 points in a specific tree, I find that a greater bonus than 600 armor/spell resist any day.

Wait until you see 360+ Cps - just wait for Ezareth's tears when that happens!

There are already people with well over 360s CPs. I'm not crying....I'll be one of them.

woodsro wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Dodge Roll is *not* an escape skill. It's an evade skill, there's a huge difference in the distinction. Bolt Escape can be coupled with Dodge Roll to become a more effective Escape. Dodge Roll by itself can be used to escape if there are safe havens close by but usually a dodge roller using it to escape *by itself* instead of attack ends up dying.

Your first issue is you're using Stamina Regen enchants instead of Stamina Cost reduction enchants. Why you think that is even remotely a good idea, especially as a Sorc and reading my thread is beyond me.

Secondly Stamina cost reduction(Warlord) champion points don't impact dodge rolls...tumbling does.

Secondly, you *can* use good sets as well as a dodge roll set. The Requirements are Stamina/Magicka Drink. Medium Armor. and Stamina Cost Reduction enchants. If you can get even 1 or 2 Stamina regen passives on your sets then you're Golden.

In your case you should be a Werewolf, be running full Medium Armor (28% Dodge roll reduction, 28% Stamina Regen) be using Tri-pots (+20%) and with 20 points into stamina regen

You could be running both full Shadow Walker and Way of the Air sets (There are plenty of other combos as well) to get 3 Stamina Regen bonuses.

Base Regen 514
3 Set bonuses (373)
V10 Mag/Stam Drink 372

1259 Base
1448 Werewolf
1800 Medium Armor
2052 Tri-Pot
20 Points into Mooncalf: 2218 Magicka Regen

With 20 points into Tumbling the cost of your dodge roll would be reduced to 2062 Stamina from the base 3591.

With this while popping Tripots you could dodge roll every 1.72 seconds without every dropping below 100% stamina.

Keep in mind that you're a freaking Sorc! You don't have a Racial bonus or a Class bonus that benefits playing a stamina build. There are players who have it far easier. Bosmer have 21% more stamina regen. Redguard 9%. Nightblades have 30% plus abilities that increase it by another 10%. Dks have stamina regen options as well.

With your current build my suggestions wouldn't impact you at all since you're not even using Stamina Cost reduction enchants to start with. It just seems like you're drinking the kool-aid or something here. You usually are way off base, but this is over the top. Can't even Scratch Hardened Ward? What an absurd comment.

As far as Bastion making Ward Strong, Damage Scaling in the champion System *far* exceeds the defensive increase provided by stacking points into Bastion. For one bastion is a single ability with rapidly diminishing returns and there are at least 2 abilities to increase most physical attacks in the game that will diminish far slower since they're put into mulitple abilities, not to mention those increasing abilities are multiplicative with other damage increasing abilities and passives while Basiton is not.

This is also why after now seeing things from the opposite side of the fence, dodge roll and such should be left alone. If magic users are able to absorb damage with shields(in essence trading magic for a temporary extension of max HP as well as being able to heal and burst heal) Stamina users should be able to dodge roll, cheap if speced that way, to avoid damage.

Please understand, Magic Sorcs should absolutely stack magic and use Ward, it makes sense for them to do so. I can't see any positives to stacking HP as a magic based Sorc, there is simply no incentive to.


I think Damage Shields should be left alone, and I think dodge roll should be left alone As both stamina and magic users should be allowed to enjoy their cheese. (for now)

After the Nirnhoned nonsense is addressed(which after seeing it in action, you were right it does need adjusted) Magic Sorcs are in a very good place. The crux comes down to this:

If Sorc's can Ward and Ball of Lighting away and run to avoid fighting, run from zerg, or set up more favorable fights, then stamina users should be able to barrell roll. Both of these mechanics are equally annoying to both parties on both sides of the fence. As a magic Sorc i used to get annoyed that dodge rollers could dodge my Mage's Wrath executes, and Crystal Frags, Crushing Shock, etc. I am sure the stamina user is equally annoyed that i could stack Hardned Ward, Heal up with Healing Ward, and Bolt Escape into the sun set.

At this juncture, one can't exist without the other, Both are equally annoying, yet they must co-exist. It will continue this way until certain core game mechanics are addressed.

Do understand, I do not want this to turn into an argument. I know we both have our views, and we both do our best to express them in a respectful manner. I have said my piece on this issue. I am not drinking any kool-aid, and I now give you the floor for your closing statements on the issue, as I do respect you as not only a player, but as big part of this community. You go out of your way to help other Sorc's, that says a lot about you, it speaks volumes actually. Regardless, its been educational talking to you, i always pickup something new speaking to you, so thank you for that.

I just want to try to make it clear I'm not trying to nerf Dodge rollers or Dodge rolling in any way. If people want to *spec* for it great! But many players in the game are being given in essence a "Free" defensive ability while still maintaining insane damage. As a Stam-Sorc it is much harder for you than it is for them until the patch comes out that gives sorcs better Stam synergies.

My suggestions would allow for people to spec into dodge rolling, spec into stamina cost reduction and it would cut the top end stamina/magicka regeneration for most people slightly which everyone already agrees is an issue!

People keep saying I'm crying about dodge rolling or can't kill them etc, I'm only pointing out the math behind the equations for evaluation by the devs and the community. I recognize things when they are too powerful and I make public note of it. I reported Grand Healing (got that fixed), Impenetrable, Nirnhoned Weapons, Nirnhoned Armor and Dodge rolling. Many of these things I fully take avantage of myself so me reporting them isn't in my best interests. These particular changes will hurt me far more than they will help me but I feel they must be done to even out the balance.

That's all I can really say on the matter.

TheBucket

You can't dodge roll forever. No matter what someone says.

Dodge roll keeps you alive in the field of combat, but has no escape tools. Where BoL can be used for both.

There are counters to everything in this game right now. Just because the build you have makes it more difficult doesn't mean it's overpowered.

Ezareth

TheBucket wrote: »

You can't dodge roll forever. No matter what someone says.

Dodge roll keeps you alive in the field of combat, but has no escape tools. Where BoL can be used for both.

There are counters to everything in this game right now. Just because the build you have makes it more difficult doesn't mean it's overpowered.

You *can* dodge roll forever with the right build and you know it is possible and becomes easier to do every day (with more CP).

Yes there are counters to dodge roll, just as there are counters to everything. My issue is the cost shouldn't be able to be reduced to a point that it is free without some significant tradeoffs.

TheBucket

Ezareth wrote: »

You *can* dodge roll forever with the right build and you know it is possible and becomes easier to do every day (with more CP).

Yes there are counters to dodge roll, just as there are counters to everything. My issue is the cost shouldn't be able to be reduced to a point that it is free without some significant tradeoffs.

I think 11 pages is enough and is basically beating a dead horse. If you are attempting to DPS, you cannot dodge roll forever effectively.

I'll just agree to disagree with you because you are commited to your ideas.

Ezareth

TheBucket wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

You *can* dodge roll forever with the right build and you know it is possible and becomes easier to do every day (with more CP).

Yes there are counters to dodge roll, just as there are counters to everything. My issue is the cost shouldn't be able to be reduced to a point that it is free without some significant tradeoffs.

I think 11 pages is enough and is basically beating a dead horse. If you are attempting to DPS, you cannot dodge roll forever effectively.

I'll just agree to disagree with you because you are commited to your ideas.

No I never implied that you could DPS and dodge roll, but you can alternate between a dodge roll and a DPS stamina ability without losing stamina with existing builds right now. You can animation cancel many abilities with a dodge roll as well. I do that all the time on my sorc.

Lava_Croft

This has turned into Ezareth vs World.

kijima

PvP u y no like Ezareth?

Sotha_Sil

nvm - please delete my post .

Ezareth

Lava_Croft wrote: »

This has turned into Ezareth vs World.

I think I'll name my next PvP Video 1vWorld. It certainly seems that way in Cyrodiil and the Forums.

Laerwen

You have to burst......period. Burst is a thing in this game, and you need do get it thorough your thick skulls. To kill a good NB I have to CC burst him. To kill a good DK I have to CC burst him. To kill a good Templar I have to CC burst him.

Guess what I have to do to kill a good sorc?

Chasing ANY decent player in this game with 10k dps isnt going to work. You have to burst. ProxDetLeap, FearBlowSpam, CuseFragMine, whatever, learn to burst.

jrkhan

Agree with Laerwen. There's simply no such thing as winning by attrition against many builds. Now, if they introduced abilities that drained resorce pools/debuffed regen rates, I think it would introduce a lot of interesting opportunities for counter play. I would think such abilities would be more impactful then slightly reducing regen rates via champ passives and putting dodge roll on a separate cost reduction enchant. I think there's an archer in vet dsa that has such an ability! Speaking of which, addressing this through counter abilities would also address OP's concern without negatively impacting pve.
I think it's a curious gap, because we have abilities that debuff healing received/damage output, but no debuffs for regen or attacking the stam/magika pool directly.
Of course, someone in the past 10 pages may have said something similar.

In fact, I can imagine a new morph/change to siphoning strikes, each light/heavy attack drains 2% magika from your target and applies a stacking 10% magika regen debuff (stacks up to 5)

Or, drainging shot, rather than (or in adition to) a snare, the ability drains 5% stamina every two seconds.

Just spitballing some ideas, but I think these sorts of things would be much more interesting than nerfs.

Ezareth

jrkhan wrote: »

Agree with Laerwen. There's simply no such thing as winning by attrition against many builds. Now, if they introduced abilities that drained resorce pools/debuffed regen rates, I think it would introduce a lot of interesting opportunities for counter play. I would think such abilities would be more impactful then slightly reducing regen rates via champ passives and putting dodge roll on a separate cost reduction enchant. I think there's an archer in vet dsa that has such an ability! Speaking of which, addressing this through counter abilities would also address OP's concern without negatively impacting pve.
I think it's a curious gap, because we have abilities that debuff healing received/damage output, but no debuffs for regen or attacking the stam/magika pool directly.
Of course, someone in the past 10 pages may have said something similar.

In fact, I can imagine a new morph/change to siphoning strikes, each light/heavy attack drains 2% magika from your target and applies a stacking 10% magika regen debuff (stacks up to 5)

Or, drainging shot, rather than (or in adition to) a snare, the ability drains 5% stamina every two seconds.

Just spitballing some ideas, but I think these sorts of things would be much more interesting than nerfs.

I'm open to all realistic scenarios, my suggestions as I noted were minor and would not fix the overall issues. This is why I rerolled a stamina nightblade. Because sometimes you can't just make a point, you have to prove it.