Radiant ********* Destruction... Seriously

Fizzlewizzle

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

If I'm understanding this the argument is that it's an execute so it should do a lot of damage. The problem being of course is that unlike every other execute in the game it's a channel. So you can start it at full health and suddenly get the full effect when their HP drops past the 25% mark? I honestly don't think it should get the bonus damage unless the channeling starts when they are at the 25% threshold. Otherwise you will have templars basically one-shotting people. Am I not understanding this mechanic correctly?

You understand it correctly.
The overall damage isn't that high. I stacked a lot of magicka, Spell damage and spell penetrate on my templar, and can hit for around 750 a tick now (1.5K a second) During the non-execute phase. When i get in the execute phase it goes up to around 3.5-4K a tick (7-8K a second) max. I'm sort of a glass canon build, but without the Light armor.

A lot of Templars are using Radiant Destruction to feed of the damage other players are doing until the target reaches the execute stage, after that they "take over" the DPS and use the bolstered damage to finish off the target.
Since its pretty hard to figure out when a target reaches the execute phase (healing, shields and other stuff like that) its often more easy to just keep the beam going then to tag along when the target is close to death.

Itoq

Observant wrote: »

Arioco396 wrote: »

no, radiant destruction....

~23k/3 seconds=
< 7.6k DPS

That's low compared to other skills. AND IT'S AN EXECUTE.

3.6 3.6 3.6 3.6..

edit: I think. three times reported there. Timing it in game by counting in my head seems like 3.

So nm - dunno.

Fizzlewizzle

Itoq wrote: »

Observant wrote: »

Arioco396 wrote: »

no, radiant destruction....

~23k/3 seconds=
< 7.6k DPS

That's low compared to other skills. AND IT'S AN EXECUTE.

3.6 3.6 3.6 3.6

Read a bit lower, the second line of the skill description.
It only deals damage for 3 seconds. the first 0.6 seconds is the casting animation.

Itoq

I am not going to rely on any tootip in this game for info. It gets a 20% duration buff from Enduring Rays passive.

Fizzlewizzle

Itoq wrote: »

I am not going to rely on any tootip in this game for info. It gets a 20% duration buff from Enduring Rays passive.

Then why post that picture if you're not going to rely on any tooltips?
Both of the numbers are shown in your picture. You wanna tell us one is true and the other isn't?
Hypocrite.

Itoq

Personally, I would save name calling for something other than some numbers in a video game.

In either case - there are three numbers in my picture. I quoted the one that I had previously thought was accurate - from counting while casting it in game. It would probably be a lot more accurate to use a stopwatch rather than count in my head though.

When calculating dps it seems to me you would include the first .6 seconds (although I am not so sure that it doesn't do damage for the first .6) since that is part of the time that actually passes (as in the s in dps.) Insta cast spells, for example, don't have infinite dps after all.

wanderlustx5

From Patch Notes:

"Radiant Destruction: Fixed an issue where this ability was scaling too quickly when your target was below 50% health."


Now perhaps raise the cost of or put a longer immunity on the uncheckable fear spam which sucks up resources despite repeat cc brak, and burning talons spam which really should have a lockout timer and perhaps pvp and ava balance will be closer (notice I didn't say bolt escape and I don't even have a sorc).

Make no doubt despite all the QQ this is how the game should have been from the start.

mortuusbae

The problem is not the fact that its damage is high, it's that the range is literally way to long and the fact that its base damage can be 9k+ even when you go full stam. Also the fact that it's not purgeable, blockeable, or can be cloaked or LoS'd.

Fizzlewizzle

mortuusbae wrote: »

The problem is not the fact that its damage is high, it's that the range is literally way to long and the fact that its base damage can be 9k+ even when you go full stam. Also the fact that it's not purgeable, blockeable, or can be cloaked or LoS'd.

I'm rather curious how you can get the base damage at 9K+ at full stam, if i can't even manage that when i focus on magicka and spell damage.
Ill just assume you mean the complete channel damage, not the base damage (which is for me 744, which can become around 3-4K a tick when executing).

Galalin

The problem is the nirn weapons and this.... gives us a nirn that increases weapon damage by 22% and see how you like wrecking blow

tplink3r1

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

Itoq wrote: »

Observant wrote: »

Arioco396 wrote: »

no, radiant destruction....

~23k/3 seconds=
< 7.6k DPS

That's low compared to other skills. AND IT'S AN EXECUTE.

3.6 3.6 3.6 3.6

Read a bit lower, the second line of the skill description.
It only deals damage for 3 seconds. the first 0.6 seconds is the casting animation.

http://elderscrollsonline.info/enduring-rays

Fizzlewizzle

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

Itoq wrote: »

Observant wrote: »

Arioco396 wrote: »

no, radiant destruction....

~23k/3 seconds=
< 7.6k DPS

That's low compared to other skills. AND IT'S AN EXECUTE.

3.6 3.6 3.6 3.6

Read a bit lower, the second line of the skill description.
It only deals damage for 3 seconds. the first 0.6 seconds is the casting animation.

http://elderscrollsonline.info/enduring-rays

I know what the passive does. If the timer he pointed out changed by said passive, then the second timer (which i pointed out) should have had the same percentage increase. If the passive doesn't get displayed, then neither should change. Either the display is wrong (in which case niether number should be trusted), or its correct, which would put us back by my last statement.

danno8

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

mortuusbae wrote: »

The problem is not the fact that its damage is high, it's that the range is literally way to long and the fact that its base damage can be 9k+ even when you go full stam. Also the fact that it's not purgeable, blockeable, or can be cloaked or LoS'd.

I'm rather curious how you can get the base damage at 9K+ at full stam, if i can't even manage that when i focus on magicka and spell damage.
Ill just assume you mean the complete channel damage, not the base damage (which is for me 744, which can become around 3-4K a tick when executing).

I assume he means the full 3 seconds, which is terrible DPS for an execute, especially when Executioner will hit for 10k-15k per hit in execute range and you can do 3 of them in 3 seconds for 30k easily.

Even Wrecking Blow can hit 10k all the time, not even in execute range.

Switching to bow and Sniping would probably yield better results than full stamina using RD.

david.haypreub18_ESO

There were 2 bugs and one feature making it much more powerful than intended.

Bug 1 had it damage scaling like an execute before opponents got to 30%. This has been fixed.

Bug 2 is the Nirnhoned bug which has weapons completely bypassing all spell resistance. This has been acknowledged, but unfortunately not fixed yet.

The feature is that damage for skills is given in the death recap as if it were done all at once, even if it is channeled over 3 seconds.

Once those 2 bugs are fixed, and people realize the channel occured over 3 seconds, I think people will see the skill is nowhere near as OP as it first seemed.

Joy_Division

Panda244 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

An all-in-one high damage, unblockable, unreflectable ranged ability with built in execute is a lot of awesome packed into one skill slot.

It's good but don't go overboard. It's not high damage (except when executing), it can be blocked, and no execute can be reflected excepting eclipse I believe.

@Joy_Division I like you. I like you a lot. But...

It has substantial damage.
It can't be reflected.
Execute part. (Currently Broke.)
Block? (Not sure, haven't played 1.6 yet.)

How do I know this without playing? Well, screenshots, it's always above 10k Health in the screenshot, regardless of the fact that it's a channeled ability. (Which is why it can't be reflected, channels can't be.) It is a Soul Assault that can be spammed, it does less damage, but the fact that it's currently broken so the execute happens earlier, and the fact that you can use it over and over and over, makes it relatively OP.

It's not the be-all end-all ability people make it out to be, but it is a tad bit overpowered, if they lowered the range so you have to be in gap closer range, then it'll help, but because you can use it 28m away, no one can interrupt you if you're that far away, because no gap closer is longer than 24m. So fix that, fix the execute proc issue. Lower the damage by 5-10%, problem solved. Ability brought back on Nirn-Worthy terms, and it's still an awesome ability.

Either way, the ability will start being used less eventually, every Templar and their mother is using it at the moment because it looks pretty, and it's new.

Panda, I like you too!

First I think you misunderstood me. I said it can't be reflected (which is a good thing because DKs reflect too much stuff as it is). an exception might be if a templar was under the effect of the eclipse, i'd imagine it would reflect back at them.

But, you haven't played? Really? How can you be so confident about this skill? I have played every day in Cyrodiil on 3 different classes, each with a different build and I will say this. I have been targeted by many a templar trying to Jesus Beam me and it has only been on my death recap for greater than 8k twice. If it is on there it is usually for stuff like 5k and indistinct from most other attacks in the game. I'm not saying these people are lying or there isn't a bug that procs it at incorrect times. I am saying, and I'd imagine many experienced PvPers would agree with me, is that when I am targeted by this spell, 9 times out of 10 I do something to prevent it from killing me: damage shield, interrupt, heal, or, if desperate, block. The other 10% of the time, I am CCed or am just overwhelmed by so many opponents that the Jesus Beam is not going to proc all it's ticks so it isn't going to register much damage. And that is what separates it from other executes: a NB who procs impales or a sorc who procs mages' fury, both of which you cannot interrupt and are instant casts, will kill you. A templar *might* kill you.

I do play a Templar so I also have experience using this against other players. Most of the time when I try to use this against a player I can tell is experienced and has a versatile build, they will do something to survive my beam's entire channel - and I usually only target people who are being attacked by other players. If a player is CCed or just overwhelmed by attackers, then they will die from the beam, but that is true of any execute. The non-executable damage is *not* good and using it in such a way is almost always a poor choice because you can always do something else for more damage and, importantly, can still defend yourself as well. I will say that a Templar who uses this skill on a high-health opponent getting beat on by half a dozen players will (eventually) get the skill to proc and probably get a killing blow. This isn't any different from a sorcerer just casts endless fury on some dude getting eviscerated by a mob and being a vulture when it comes to killing blows.

Naturally I think that the bug allowing this to proc should be fixed immediately. I don't see the logic why this should be cleansed or purged - this is not a DoT or after-effect, this is continuous damage that is immediately done on contact. I do, however, believe that breaking LOS should end the effect (which at current is does not), it should be blockable (pretty sure it is), moving out of range should break the channel (this I am not certain), and it should not get its proc against damage shields (I think it works this way right now).

I see a lot of posts asking to lower the range and I think this is a lazy solution that ignores the reality that the spell is a channel from which the Templar cannot defend herself for 3 seconds. That channel is the intended balancing mechanism and it works. You say nobody can interrupt a Jesus Beaming Templar but that is not true, venom arrow, crushing shock, and other range interrupts will all do the trick just fine. As for melee types, it really isn't that hard: they just have to pop a damage shield while moving the 7 or 8 meters or so and then charge. If you counter this isn't fair, I will counter with what is so fair about a sorcerer pressing a single button, with no risk to herself and no warning to the enemy player, and in an instant vaporizing same melee from 38 meters away? There is no interrupting that, only dying if you are under 20% health and don't happen to pop a strong damage shield at the right instant. Use Mage's Fury as the baseline. 38 meters away and instant death at 20%. If we are going to lower the range to 24 meters to make it "fair" for melee types, then that channel time for radiant oppression has to go. Fair is fair, right?

Also what is being ignored is that a player does not have to interrupt a Jesus Beam to survive: they can damage shield, block, heal, or have a teammate interrupt the templar. All of these work against radiant oppression. 90% of the time, none of these will save you if the sorcerer presses their mage's fury button before you press your button.

Now I know people will read this an call me a Templar apologist and claim I am biased because I play one. They are free to believe what they want and I wasn't going to change their minds anyway. But the fact of the matter is 2/3 of the time I go into Cyrodiil this skill is not on my bar, and 100% of the time I am there, I am competing against this skill. And this does not even factor into PvE where I also have to compete against Templars using this skill in stuff like trials. If I felt this skill was unbalanced, it would be in my interest the vast majority of the time I played, to communicate my concerns to ZoS. On the whole, I do not fear this spell. In fact, in the game's current meta, I actually think its overuse is to my advantage. With all those templars spamming this skill, leaving themselves vulnerable to attack while doing mediocre damage, it has presented more easy targets and less lethal arrows, crushing shocks, and blazing spears - spells that I actually do worry about.

Durham

The biggest issue is that's its a channeled execute... Extreamly easy to get off the execute for that reason.... 3.6 secs duration

Fizzlewizzle

Durham wrote: »

The biggest issue is that's its a channeled execute... Extreamly easy to get off the execute for that reason.... 3.6 secs duration

So... what would you suggest?
Boost the damage by 3-5 times and make it a single cast (instant) execute?
I wouldn't mind... damage is damage, whatever way it comes.

Joy_Division

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

The biggest issue is that's its a channeled execute... Extreamly easy to get off the execute for that reason.... 3.6 secs duration

So... what would you suggest?
Boost the damage by 3-5 times and make it a single cast (instant) execute?
I wouldn't mind... damage is damage, whatever way it comes.

That would be too strong. The channel is the spell's weakness and needs to be a part of its mechanics: the templar should put themselves at risk for using this good spell and the target should have time to react against it.

Fizzlewizzle

Joy_Division wrote: »

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

The biggest issue is that's its a channeled execute... Extreamly easy to get off the execute for that reason.... 3.6 secs duration

So... what would you suggest?
Boost the damage by 3-5 times and make it a single cast (instant) execute?
I wouldn't mind... damage is damage, whatever way it comes.

That would be too strong. The channel is the spell's weakness and needs to be a part of its mechanics: the templar should put themselves at risk for using this good spell and the target should have time to react against it.

The channel is also the spells strong point (according to the guy i quoted), so finding a middle way seems close to impossible.

- Keep the channel + Shorten the Distance = Spell needs to be stronger because the risk-factor increases.
- Remove the channel + increase the damage = Just another execute, nothing special.
- Keep the channel + Keep the range + lower the damage = spell becomes useless.

A lot of people will disagree with option 1.
A lot of people will disagree with option 2.
A lot of people will disagree with option 3.
No way to please everyone.

azoriangaming

Francescolg wrote: »

rdbrown1987 wrote: »

sadly you're in the wrong forum post please read the title of the post before you comment.

No no, it is you, playing a templar twink and coming to the forums to complain about a single skill, while sorcerers still rock at single target damage.

Imo, a normal Templar player wouldn't do so! Otherwise many others would have come to the forums to write like you! THESE templars are still testing several builds, several skills. This leads them to deeper understanding of the situation. Especially of a pvp system that was nurfed/changed/etc. Our class lost more that they gave us in this patch and players are still working hard to find new builds.

You can't tell me that after 3-4 days you tested everything and that this skill is the most evil, most overpowered skill, etc. This feels just wrong. You should test this skill in duels, etc. and for a longer time, before you start crying for nurf!

Some templar spec's have become glass cannons and and are now able to do damage from distance. I know that this fact can frustrate some sorcerers but they got to live with it!

A thing which you don't understand, as you demonstrate while solely focussing on one singular OP skill, while the game has changed so much around that skill and around you (!)

rdbrown1987 wrote: »

I play a templar in pvp and after several tests in builds la,ma,ha running through spell dmg, weapon dmg, crit builds etc, I've got to admit that this skill is just ridiculous whatever build you go for eg even in ha this skill is ticking for 4.5k per second if the players hp is 50% or below.

I really can't believe other templar players are arguing that this is not op when it clearly is, I'm not going to go into the nerfs to templars because this post is about 1 ability.

I'm going to give you la wearers a tip to reduce the damage from spell skills it's called nirnhoned look it up if you want to keep using la in pvp because you have remember that spell resist is now nerfed on la.

Ok please read my post correctly because i think you've misunderstood, here is a little part of it for you. (I'm not going to go into the nerfs to templars because this post is about 1 ability.) I know it's in english and you might not speak or understand it very well so I'll tell you in a more simple way so you can understand.

I could write a long list of issues with templars because we both know that there are issues but this post is about 1 ability not about the state of all other templar abilities.

Fizzlewizzle

Some (strange) ideas for other "effects" for the Radiant Destruction skill (if people dislike the current one so much).
They are just some random thoughts. I found them pretty funny.

(Suggestion 1)
A channeled skill that lasts 12 seconds which throws a line between the caster and the target (current Laser).
Every 2 seconds (the first one 2 seconds after the line is cast) an Orb much like the Harverster Orbs will be released by the Templar, which will then travel along the line towards the target.
Each of these orbs deal a high amount of damage when they hit a/ the target (any hostile target trigger these orbs, making them explode).
Enemies can damage these orbs (like we can with Harvester Orbs), lessening their destructive force or destroying them altogether. Interrupting the target is also an option, which will break the line and destroys the orbs in the process.

Extra info:
- Because the orbs follow the line they will always be between the Templar and the target. Using a gapcloser would mean diving headfirst into the orbs.
- Same rules as the current Radiant Destruction apply (Breaking LoS, dodge rolling, CC break and reflects don't work). Just break the orbs and you won't get hurt.
- You can block the damage of the orbs.

(Suggestion 2)
Using the skill will activate a "Toggled" Channel which will create a Barrier around the user and a link with the target (current laser).
The Barrier will be based on the users max magicka (100% of it), which will also be its resource pool.
Besides the initial cast cost the barrier will drain around 2% max magicka per second to sustain the barrier. Any damage received by the barrier will be redirected through the link to the target, as well as drained from the remaining Magicka the user has.

Extra info:
- Using this skill will basically put the Templar out of combat. Unable to use any skills until he blocks and breaks the link himself, which would make him vulnerable again. Just hope that your teammates don't try to kill him when he's linked to you.

Desdemonte

If this is a channeled execute, how am I getting hit with it multiple times from the same person in my death recap? And I'm talking 12-15k for each hit.

I have taken a hiatus from Cyrodiil until they fix this BS skill. It's as bad as the shield bash bug.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO

Get over it, sorc dps is still OP too don't see ppl complain about that.

Snit

kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »

Get over it, sorc dps is still OP too don't see ppl complain about that.

And why do you imagine that is?

Fizzlewizzle

Snit wrote: »

kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »

Get over it, sorc dps is still OP too don't see ppl complain about that.

And why do you imagine that is?

Because people don't complain about what's beneficial for them and yada yada yada (Fill in standard Rant here).

People don't want templars to outheal any other class and they don't want them to gain any damage.
Give us one of the two (I prefer the first one), and stop complaining.

Kupoking

I am a templar, and I find this ability way too strong.

Heck, it's stronger than soul assault which is an ultimate.

I've seen an organised group with only templar (except 2-3 sorcs) who were all deth raying 1 target after another.

Even magika tanks with this build does more damage in ganks than medium armor wearers.

And even non nirnhoned users do crazy dmg

Only plea to keep this ability now are templar who wants to own people and wreck face like the unbalanced DKs used to be...

Joy_Division

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

The biggest issue is that's its a channeled execute... Extreamly easy to get off the execute for that reason.... 3.6 secs duration

So... what would you suggest?
Boost the damage by 3-5 times and make it a single cast (instant) execute?
I wouldn't mind... damage is damage, whatever way it comes.

That would be too strong. The channel is the spell's weakness and needs to be a part of its mechanics: the templar should put themselves at risk for using this good spell and the target should have time to react against it.

The channel is also the spells strong point (according to the guy i quoted), so finding a middle way seems close to impossible.

- Keep the channel + Shorten the Distance = Spell needs to be stronger because the risk-factor increases.
- Remove the channel + increase the damage = Just another execute, nothing special.
- Keep the channel + Keep the range + lower the damage = spell becomes useless.

A lot of people will disagree with option 1.
A lot of people will disagree with option 2.
A lot of people will disagree with option 3.
No way to please everyone.

Well, the sorc execute is even easier to get off, it lasts longer, and does not put the sorc at risk, so I'm not sure this is as much a problem as is being suggested.

I mean, it is "easy" for a templar to get off the execute, but it is not easy for the templar to actually complete the execute because of the spell's inherent weakness of a channel. So there is an advantage and a disadvantage to this. That channel needs to stay to give the target the opportunity to react.

The channel also makes this spell strictly worse than Impale and Mage's Fury in common conditions. If the target is under 25% health and within 15 meters, Impale is 100% better. If the target is under 20% health and within 28 meters, Mage's Fury is 100% better. These situations happen in every battle - removing the channel would make this spell much more versatile in addition to making is just like another execute.

So again, strengths and weaknesses. The templar trades the instant execute convenience from which there is little defense for a channel that puts her at risk and allows the target more time to react so as to begin the execution process earlier.

I will admit this spell is the best execute in the game IF the Templar has little to fear against enemy attack and the target, for whatever reason, is incapable of reacting. But it is also the worst execute in the game if the target is at low health and is aware and able to react against the templar.

mortuusbae

It's funny when players try to justify a clearly broken ability that more than half the community realizes is broken, and their only argument is that it's channeled rofl.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Stapes

So just had this happen to me while chasing the scroll of Mnem in thornablade. @ZOS_JessicaFolsom can you please check this out? I was riding after the scroll but away from it and this was all I think i got hit with? Was dead before i got off my mount i think and happened within a few seconds (probably due to the ridicilous lag from the red zerg).

So i was at full health and rediant destruction did that much damage? Is there another bug its related to maybe because that seems excessive?

I am running 5pce heavy and 2 light with several impen traits @ 29k health.

Itoq

How much damage do you think the skill lines and/or classes represented below would do over eight seconds?