Was biting jabs nerfed?

  • oxylus
    oxylus
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    Just to add another definitive test to the pile, I cast 13 consecutive biting jabs, and measured the time between the start of the first to the start of the 13th (thus getting a time for 12 casts). This yielded 29.35 seconds, which is 2.45s per cast.

    I think an extra delay might be better than increasing the cost from a user perspective, it's just that 1.35s is too much. Even just increasing it to 0.8 from the original 0.5 would be a big difference but not destroy the skill either. 2.45s as compared to 1.6s corresponds to a 35% cut to dps. That's a bit insane and makes me wonder if there's a math problem in the balance department. This type of change needs to be done in small increments in order to see the impact and not create big issues.

    There's no question it is not 1.2s though, so the current length is both bad balance and a bug :\

    To be honest, considering the number of complaints about how this skill really scales poorly and becomes lackluster in vet content, I'm a little confused that anyone would think a nerf is in order at all.
    Edited by oxylus on 23 May 2014 19:32
  • tplink3r1
    tplink3r1
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    Crystal Shards is our only good spell BUT it costs more magicka than anything the templar has
    eclipse costs 476 magicka, and aurora javeling 420(same as shards), blinding light 420(same), rushed ceremony 476, AND sorcerers have more magicka management.
    you clearly never played a templar and have no clue what you are talking about.
    Edited by tplink3r1 on 23 May 2014 19:36
    VR16 Templar
    VR3 Sorcerer
  • Dagoth_Rac
    Dagoth_Rac
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    Thank you all for your patience as we tracked this one down. We have an answer for you.

    In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds. Unfortunately, this change was not documented in the patch notes. This was not intended, and we do apologize.

    This change was made to balance the ability's high single target damage. However we have been reading your feedback, and agree that the ability feels too unresponsive now. We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible), and instead will slightly increase the ability's resource cost.

    Thank you for the quick response to the problem, but I hope the fix will come along very quickly, too. Also, if one of Templar's best skills is being made more expensive, it is *really* time to finally address resource management for Templar. We have such high class skill magicka costs and so few tools to aid in getting anything back. Maybe the Templar magicka recovery passives in beta were too powerful but I don't think removing magicka recovery completely was a good answer.
  • oxygen_boarderb16_ESO
    oxylus wrote: »
    Just to add another definitive test to the pile, I cast 13 consecutive biting jabs, and measured the time between the start of the first to the start of the 13th (thus getting a time for 12 casts). This yielded 29.35 seconds, which is 2.45s per cast.

    I think an extra delay might be better than increasing the cost from a user perspective, it's just that 1.35s is too much. Even just increasing it to 0.8 from the original 0.5 would be a big difference but not destroy the skill either. 2.45s as compared to 1.6s corresponds to a 35% cut to dps. That's a bit insane and makes me wonder if there's a math problem in the balance department. This type of change needs to be done in small increments in order to see the impact and not create a big issues.

    There's no question it is not 1.2s though, so the current length is both bad balance and a bug :\

    To be honest, considering the number of complaints about how this skill really scales poorly and becomes lackluster in vet content, I'm a little confused that anyone would think a nerf is in order at all.

    The skills effectiveness (pre-change) didn't scale down with vet content. Its probably hands down the go to for pvp abilities as well.
    Toktok - Vet8 Orc Templar - 2 Hand, Medium/Heavy Armor Grunt - Blacksmith/Clothier/Enchanter/Alchemist
  • NordJitsu
    NordJitsu
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    Thank you all for your patience as we tracked this one down. We have an answer for you.

    In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds. Unfortunately, this change was not documented in the patch notes. This was not intended, and we do apologize.

    This change was made to balance the ability's high single target damage. However we have been reading your feedback, and agree that the ability feels too unresponsive now. We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible), and instead will slightly increase the ability's resource cost.

    No....just no.

    Its not OP as is. Its fine. Its perfect. Maybe hitting a bit too light.

    Its got a high resource cost and a moderate amount of damage. Its best used as a finisher.

    I'm guessing this only looked OP in your internal metrics because ALL OF THE BOTS were using it due to the fact that it was spammable and didn't have to be aimed. Its easy for dumb machines to use.

    It was not and is not over powered when used by a player. Especially in PvP where it can be blocked, interrupted, dodged away from, ect.
    @NordJitsu - Guild Master (Main Character = Hlaalu Idas)
    GREAT HOUSE HLAALU
  • dermottib14_ESO
    dermottib14_ESO
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    I heard alot of players in cyrodil complaining how powerful biting jabs was. True story.....

    Noone ever complained about biting jabs, and they ninja nerf it in a night. While bash spam, dark talons, etc took forver and hundreds of players complaining.

    This makes no sense to me at all. How bout you let the players judge if its too powerful, like you have done with the Dragon Knights?
    Edited by dermottib14_ESO on 23 May 2014 19:40
  • hamon
    hamon
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    Thank you all for your patience as we tracked this one down. We have an answer for you.

    In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds. Unfortunately, this change was not documented in the patch notes. This was not intended, and we do apologize.

    This change was made to balance the ability's high single target damage. However we have been reading your feedback, and agree that the ability feels too unresponsive now. We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible), and instead will slightly increase the ability's resource cost.

    i,m sorry but it seems like you tried to ninja nerf us hoping we wouldnt notice. i've lost trust because of this. I also dont think this needs nerfing without buffing us somewhere else. templars in melee and melee ingeneral are weak as is and heres another slap in the face.

    Be honest if you want everyone to wear light armour and use nothing but staffs just be honest and tell us because every move you make just makes doing otherwise less attractive

  • grizzbi
    grizzbi
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    Templar could use some help on many aspects. But everybody will just focus their attention on a single poor dps skill, once a year.

    Now ZOS just have to revert it back to what it was and...
    VOILA: "We are done, templar are fine now!"

    Great job!
  • tplink3r1
    tplink3r1
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    I heard alot of players in cyrodil complaining how powerful biting jabs was. True story.....
    i never heard it, and they are probably crying noobs.
    bitting jabs is under powered in pvp because it has no auto-targeting, the enemy can simply keep turning around me to evade the 4 hits.
    i rarely hit the enemy 4 times with it (PVP).
    Edited by tplink3r1 on 23 May 2014 19:44
    VR16 Templar
    VR3 Sorcerer
  • temjiu
    temjiu
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    Its good to hear that they're reversing the "internal CD". I honestly thought that a regular CD would be OK. this wasn't an internal CD...this was a skill lockdown. but hey...glad they're reversing it.

    I guess resource cost is the next best option. Honestly, I've gone back and forth on resource cost vs. CD on many skills in many MMO's, and to me it depends on the skill and the situation.

    I think ultimately, as long as the tools are there to make a choice regarding resource recovery I'm OK with it. only downside is that this is a skill that is often used in stamina heavy builds, and those builds will now have to devote more resources to magick if they want to use this skill more often.

    But perhaps this is needed. perhaps they want people to have to make a resource choice if they want to spam the skill. One thing I do know...in it's original form. it was pretty easy to spam mobs to death with it, even in my high stamina build (like zero mana regen stats).

    Even if i couldn't kill them outright with it, I usually got enough ultimate points to unleash my ultimate, which usually killed them anyways.
  • oxygen_boarderb16_ESO
    temjiu wrote: »
    Its good to hear that they're reversing the "internal CD". I honestly thought that a regular CD would be OK. this wasn't an internal CD...this was a skill lockdown. but hey...glad they're reversing it.

    I guess resource cost is the next best option. Honestly, I've gone back and forth on resource cost vs. CD on many skills in many MMO's, and to me it depends on the skill and the situation.

    I think ultimately, as long as the tools are there to make a choice regarding resource recovery I'm OK with it. only downside is that this is a skill that is often used in stamina heavy builds, and those builds will now have to devote more resources to magick if they want to use this skill more often.

    But perhaps this is needed. perhaps they want people to have to make a resource choice if they want to spam the skill. One thing I do know...in it's original form. it was pretty easy to spam mobs to death with it, even in my high stamina build (like zero mana regen stats).

    Even if i couldn't kill them outright with it, I usually got enough ultimate points to unleash my ultimate, which usually killed them anyways.

    I use this as a finisher on my stam build between execute/BJ. Usually on boss fights if I have no stamina. I always have this on my pvp bar. It just decimates people.
    Toktok - Vet8 Orc Templar - 2 Hand, Medium/Heavy Armor Grunt - Blacksmith/Clothier/Enchanter/Alchemist
  • skarvika
    skarvika
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    NordJitsu wrote: »
    Its not OP as is. Its fine. Its perfect. Maybe hitting a bit too light.

    Its got a high resource cost and a moderate amount of damage.
    I don't think any changes need to be applied from the original. The drawback is that you have to aim it, and in pvp this is somewhat difficult to do against a moving target. You've got to know how and when exactly to use it and sometimes it takes just a little bit of luck to get every hit to connect as well.
    As it stands, it's already a fairly bit magicka eater for me. I can only cast it 5 times before my magicka is all gone, and against an average vet player in pvp, 5 hits from this isn't enough to typically finish them off.
    My group did some experimenting with the damage we can do while having friendly duels with some players in EP in Cyrodiil. It was fine as is.
    QQing is a full time job
  • Mortosk
    Mortosk
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    oxylus wrote: »
    Just to add another definitive test to the pile, I cast 13 consecutive biting jabs, and measured the time between the start of the first to the start of the 13th (thus getting a time for 12 casts). This yielded 29.35 seconds, which is 2.45s per cast.

    I think an extra delay might be better than increasing the cost from a user perspective, it's just that 1.35s is too much. Even just increasing it to 0.8 from the original 0.5 would be a big difference but not destroy the skill either. 2.45s as compared to 1.6s corresponds to a 35% cut to dps. That's a bit insane and makes me wonder if there's a math problem in the balance department. This type of change needs to be done in small increments in order to see the impact and not create big issues.

    There's no question it is not 1.2s though, so the current length is both bad balance and a bug :\

    To be honest, considering the number of complaints about how this skill really scales poorly and becomes lackluster in vet content, I'm a little confused that anyone would think a nerf is in order at all.

    Some people are saying the glowy hand animation at the end is being added to the 1.1 sec channel time making the channel time come to 1.6 seconds instead of the tool tip which states 1.1. So, the net change is +1.2 seconds or so.
    "Now I stand, the lion before the lambs and they do not fear. They can not fear." --Arthas Menethil (aka, The Lich King)
  • madangrypally
    madangrypally
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    If you increase the magicka cost can we please get some source of magicka resource ability/passive.

    What I think would be a decent fix is something similar to DKs Battle Roar with some changes.

    Passive Idea:
    Battle Recovery:
    WHEN ACTIVATING AN ULTIMATE ABILITY
    Restores Magicka based on Max Magicka. Rank 1: ??%, Rank 2: ??%

    I would vote to get rid of Light Weaver for the passive above.
  • ZakyUchiha
    ZakyUchiha
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    Not sure if it's only Biting Jabs, but this is the main DD skill as a Templar melee and now it got even more nerfed as templar melee is not even that bad already..
    Nobody rolls Templar melee and this makes me even more want to change to heal spec, as it just got buffed..
    Name: Zaky Warbringer
    Level: Veteran Rank 12
    Class: Templar
    Race: Imperial
    Faction: Ebonheart Pact
    Server: EU Megaserver
  • Enkshar
    Enkshar
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    This is just stupid, Templar have to use light armor and spell cost reduce jewrly to be able to spam something due to poor magicka regeneration and u want to increase the cost of skill and all because it can do some damage?

    A templar dps doing jab spamming is not even close to any other class dps out there

    And Templars dont spam jabs due to its overwhelming dmg but due to the lack of alternatives to do dmg. Give templars a more usefull melee skill and ull see no more jab spamming

    Really i still dont undesrtand why with so many broken mechanics out there u need to touch thing that noone ever sees as broken. U guys really need to review ur priorities cause this is only hurting this game more and more
    Edited by Enkshar on 23 May 2014 21:07
  • Mortosk
    Mortosk
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    Thank you all for your patience as we tracked this one down. We have an answer for you.

    In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds. Unfortunately, this change was not documented in the patch notes. This was not intended, and we do apologize.

    This change was made to balance the ability's high single target damage. However we have been reading your feedback, and agree that the ability feels too unresponsive now. We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible), and instead will slightly increase the ability's resource cost.

    Thank you for the response. By "as soon as possible" I am really hoping for a hotfix today that corrects this and other numerous issues (some game breaking) introduced in yesterdays patch. To leave the game in this state over the 3 day weekend would be unfortunate.

    Keep hoping. They honestly believe that leaving the templar class in the dreadful and unplayable state we are now in is acceptable. They think people will just put up with it and wait patiently. Probably won't see a patch for a week or more. I wonder how many will pull their hair out with frustration and unsub in the interim.
    Edited by Mortosk on 23 May 2014 21:21
    "Now I stand, the lion before the lambs and they do not fear. They can not fear." --Arthas Menethil (aka, The Lich King)
  • RoCoL
    RoCoL
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    I think the 'too much dmg.' is a joke of an excuse. It is moderate to almost high dps with passives, but not "too much." Lets hope its back in sooner than later.

    That being said; I has conspiracy: Maybe this was a giant *** for the spammer bots. I can only imagine...the train of corpses.. Here Lies JTYIMCD and his faithful companion CFPDDT and lest we forget QVMJUC. R.I.P.
  • Enkshar
    Enkshar
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    Mortosk wrote: »
    Thank you all for your patience as we tracked this one down. We have an answer for you.

    In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds. Unfortunately, this change was not documented in the patch notes. This was not intended, and we do apologize.

    This change was made to balance the ability's high single target damage. However we have been reading your feedback, and agree that the ability feels too unresponsive now. We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible), and instead will slightly increase the ability's resource cost.

    Thank you for the response. By "as soon as possible" I am really hoping for a hotfix today that corrects this and other numerous issues (some game breaking) introduced in yesterdays patch. To leave the game in this state over the 3 day weekend would be unfortunate.

    Keep hoping. They honestly believe that leaving the templar class in the dreadful and unplayable state we are now in is acceptable. They think people will just put up with it and wait patiently

    U just need to see how NB still lack fixes to lose all hope on templars
    Edited by Enkshar on 23 May 2014 21:47
  • Mortosk
    Mortosk
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    Thank you all for your patience as we tracked this one down. We have an answer for you.

    In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds. Unfortunately, this change was not documented in the patch notes. This was not intended, and we do apologize.

    This change was made to balance the ability's high single target damage. However we have been reading your feedback, and agree that the ability feels too unresponsive now. We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible), and instead will slightly increase the ability's resource cost.

    Jessica,

    I implore you to investigate this further. Something is not adding up and I think it may be related to the glowy hand effect part of the biting Jabs animation being counted as part of the channel time in effect extending the total time from the time you first cast to the time you can cast any other skill to 2.5 seconds. I'm fairly certain of this and several people have posted their findings similar to this.

    This is why this change is being so negatively received I think. It seems like more than the 0.7 seconds intended. I do not recall having to wait 0.5 seconds for an icd before, I could cast a new one the instant the jabbing part of the animation completed.
    "Now I stand, the lion before the lambs and they do not fear. They can not fear." --Arthas Menethil (aka, The Lich King)
  • Noobie
    Noobie
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    This does it for me, No one on any forums i have read complained about biting jabs being overpowered. You did this in an attempt to fight bots and when all was said and done it bit you in your *&^%. Good job ZoS sorry but would have loved to support you, but you broke something that didnt need fixing in the first place. Consider my subscription canceled because of the official response of " In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds."
  • tplink3r1
    tplink3r1
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    bots are using templars, remove templars from the game.
    devs logic.
    VR16 Templar
    VR3 Sorcerer
  • Tendeep
    Tendeep
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    GD'it! With every official response from Zenimax, I feel more and more that they have the most lazy core dev teams working for this studio... it reminds me of my job when our internal software dev's try to shortcut *** just to make dead lines...

    Lets think and test before jumping to crazy conclusions on what you try to sneak in your patches ZEN!!!

    FACT: Healing is pretty much the only thing this class is good for now - There goes my Paladin type build I have been trying to master since release... Melee is trash now (sword and board even more so).
  • Mortosk
    Mortosk
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    tplink3r1 wrote: »
    bots are using templars, remove templars from the game.
    devs logic.

    That will happen on it's own when every dps templar quits playing until the next patch. Certainly won't see any PVPing any time soon.
    "Now I stand, the lion before the lambs and they do not fear. They can not fear." --Arthas Menethil (aka, The Lich King)
  • AngryNord
    AngryNord
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    NordJitsu wrote: »
    Not that I think this is a good change, but I'll share a little trick I've played with on a Templar that is RIDICULOUS for AoE.

    Open with Explosive Charge, then Alternate between Solar Barrage and Pulsar. Solar Barrage increases weapon and spell power for the next attack, which will make your Pulsar hit ridiculously hard. Its pretty much the best trash clearing build in the game. You can open with reflective light to keep them from getting away and have even more DPS. Extended ritual is your last skill, which is just for healing and purging.

    Pulsar is a destro staff skill, which hardly all Templars use
  • Noobie
    Noobie
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    AngryNord wrote: »
    NordJitsu wrote: »
    Not that I think this is a good change, but I'll share a little trick I've played with on a Templar that is RIDICULOUS for AoE.

    Open with Explosive Charge, then Alternate between Solar Barrage and Pulsar. Solar Barrage increases weapon and spell power for the next attack, which will make your Pulsar hit ridiculously hard. Its pretty much the best trash clearing build in the game. You can open with reflective light to keep them from getting away and have even more DPS. Extended ritual is your last skill, which is just for healing and purging.

    Pulsar is a destro staff skill, which hardly all Templars use

    would also like to add that biting jabs was good becuase after spamming all them mobs to about 25% your running low on magicka so it too me was the best finisher
  • Dev
    Dev
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    yes noticed this as well on punishing sweep....

    ninja nerfs for the lose... I am getting so sick of this amateur crap...

    lets see, the mess up the mobs so they are stronger then they are supposed to be, half the abilities are broken, and they go off and nerf the few that work...

    what type of head up the rear approval process do they have for these changes.

    it really is sad on how much of a failure this game is becoming...
  • Soulshine
    Soulshine
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    RoCoL wrote: »
    Soulshine wrote: »
    RoCoL wrote: »
    Soulshine wrote: »
    RoCoL wrote: »
    Soulshine wrote: »
    Given the read in this entire thread, it is pretty clear what the issue is. Templars are by far the most versatile class in the game and have been in quite a good place for some time. This is a tempest in a tea cup if you ask me.

    If you had been around last year in beta, you would know that this skill went through a number of animation issues and bugs, including getting frozen on you indefinitely if used to the point where it would lock out all other skills from being effective. Something similar is happening again for whatever reasons in the game tech, which I HIGHLY doubt were intentional on ZoS's part. Obviously it is a bug so do the right thing and file a bug report and please get on with it.

    There are tons of skills at your disposal to dispatch groups of mobs in no time flat in VR content - and yes! even when in LIGHT ARMOR and using a Restro staff for heaven sake. Aedric spear has some very fine options for AoE combined with other weapons and Dawn's Wrath for ST, so make use of what you have until this gets addressed and you are golden.

    Your full of it.
    Please list a few of the "tons of skills at your disposal to dispatch VR mobs"

    As I stated, you have plenty to work with in Aedric Spear besides Biting Jabs, and I have already stated that earlier in the thread. If you rely on a single skill for your rotation to be effective, you have a lot to figure out. Go do some reading and find a build that works for you.

    So i already use spear for a single target 3.5 sec reprieve. That does nothing when facing more than 2 trash mobs. And you telling me to go copy someones build so i am viable.
    im vr 6 and am not going to farm vr 1 areas. I have no issue with the game being challenging, or hard or difficult- this is not the case. Its impossible for me to take on more than 2 opponents in "solo friendly" areas now.
    And i have changed skills, tried different combos, working with what i have. I have equipped heavy armor, sword and board- let me let you in on a little secret- its BROKEN and if this is as intended then prepare for the templar tsunami of cancelled accounts.

    I did not tell you to "copy someones build." I am saying very planly there is more than one way to skin a cat and there are plenty of builds in TF discussion which prove it.

    No one is disputing the Jabs is bugged atm. I already stated to bug it as we have done in the past. Meantime, manage some level of creativity and work around it. The problem is not as over the top and the reactions it's receiving. You do have choices. Use them.

    Dude. now youre talking down to me like im stuck on stupid.

    I look at my skill tree like a tool box. i dig around and find what works best-sometimes swapping skills between mage heavy mob or melee heavy mob. i play my templar similar to a classic D&D Paladin/ undead hunter. i can shut down mages, burn the heretics and clear trash while giving my party or myself some buffage or purification. when I approach a dungeon or an anchor i am a quick swap to resto staff away from being full time heals for the group.

    short of depleting my magic pool in exchange for more life or stamina based melee attacks my Templar/resto staff/sword and board-grind through 'solo' friendly content is not viable.

    I am not a child, I am not stuck in a rut and keep trying different variations using puncturing sweep- I have changed everything and tried my whole tool-box and magic heavy, healer spec, robe wearing templar is NOT viable when questing in appropriate or below my VR level.

    If your "tool box" and your build is not viable, then look at your build. There is no way you should be going down from taking on 2 trash mobs. Just because you have had that experience, that doesn't mean everyone else does.
  • jdroebuckb16_ESO
    jdroebuckb16_ESO
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    Templar here. I used BJ a lot (oooo err missus). Seriously though, this has impacted me but I have just evolved for now until the next patch comes. It's made heavy/light weapon combos more equal if not better single target dps, particularly if you throw in some BJ as part of it. I really do need to click many more buttons and to plan effectively my strategy for taking down 3 targets at once but its more than doable.

    This nerf is a bit too much but I think they will sort it, just as they have posted. However, it's not OMFG world ending like some are making out. Crap like this happens in every mmorpg and if you don't think it does just go scout every forum of every MMORPG out there... its full of the exact same complaints from the forums.

    Not to say people power is a bad thing, keep at it brothers... Just for the vast majority looking in they should see this as an opportunity to find a new rotation to be better than the rest, as opposed to getting peed off their rotation is now borked.
    "Home is where the heart is but the stars are made of platinum"
  • Humanistic
    Humanistic
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    @RoCoL & @Soulshine - I basically just decided to do what mobs were doing to me (I used the sword/shield/puncturing sweeps spec for a long time), reduce their armor and spell resistence.

    For a long time I was wondering why Cyrodil PvP mobs hit so freaking hard, then I started seeing that at the veteran levels. This is when I have buffed myself, having almost 3k armor and 2500 spell resistence - which didn't matter.

    I concluded that they must have 70-90% (or more) armor and spell penetration. So naturally, I started using an ability that did the same thing to them - Puncture. It has been working very well. Now I just need to find an ability to replace Puncturing Sweep and I'm all set.

    I definitely recommend anyone using one-hand/shield to use this, especially at the veteran levels.
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