Should add-ons be allowed?

magic_is_might · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Ciarán wrote: »

ttwinklerub17_ESO wrote: »

then I would further you to read online on how the bot makers are using the ESO API and are posting about it

I won't bother posting you the two sites that talk about it

Can you link that information here? Since you have already found this information online, it only makes sense that to support this claim you provide links, rather than force people to search for it (and potentially find nothing.) If I sound snarky, then I do apologize, but I am genuinely curious on this topic, and preliminary google searches have not yielded any results.

Yeah, if you're going to claim these things. The burden of proof falls on the person claiming them.

Blackwolfe5 · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Addons are written with Lua, some bot software scripts is also written with lua. Because, you know, Lua is a widely used scripting language. I think this is what confuses some of the clueless people. This does not mean that one lua script can do the same things in one scripting engine as it can in another because it works completely different in a botting program compared to ESOs implementation.

Furthermore, addons are not even loaded until you enter the gameworld with a character.

AND since addons are in no way executables, and run in a sandbox enviroment it is simply impossible to in any way get hacked or get a virus from using an addon.

MrBeatDown · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

NO, this is the top reason why this game has bots. Its because you allow 3rd party programs to be used with this game. It is Op and needs to be nerfed.

ttwinklerub17_ESO · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

try reading Ownedcore or ESOMinion

if the API wasn't open in the first place it would be much tougher to hack

If it was me I would be shutting these sites down as fast as I can

Blackwolfe5 · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Clueless people are clueless.

Dayv · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

I vote yes. I really struggled with VR content until I had some addons. Particulary timers. You can get through early levels in first-person with a minimal HUD. This is fine, you shouldn't have to learn everything at once, but the later game is really about situational awareness and resource management and you need all the tools you can get for that. Of course, you could agree with me on that, but argue that ZOS should be providing those tools, but I'm happy to use addons, some are extremely professional, an I'm very grateful to the people who have made them. It's also a great way for gaming to evolve, people can try experimental things that may seem to leftfield for the main developer to try.

magic_is_might · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

ttwinklerub17_ESO wrote: »

try reading Ownedcore or ESOMinion

if the API wasn't open in the first place it would be much tougher to hack

If it was me I would be shutting these sites down as fast as I can

Those are not addons. All I see are 3rd party apps that are modifying Minion software. And forcing it to use their own Lua scripts.

Again, this would happen if addons were not allowed.

roflcopter · May 2014

Yeah addons should be allowed, but heavily monitored by Zen on what info can be pulled / displayed as they are doing. I don't think it should be an open API party to us developers.

Ciarán · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

ttwinklerub17_ESO wrote: »

try reading Ownedcore or ESOMinion

if the API wasn't open in the first place it would be much tougher to hack

If it was me I would be shutting these sites down as fast as I can

Is it really that difficult for you to find and link the specific posts which you are trying to reference? Or do you really not care to prove your point? I do not have the time to sit down and read every single thread in those forums, nor do I particularly want to. That said, I really do not want to just dismiss your statement for lacking supporting evidence, but you are not making that easy.

magic_is_might · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Ciarán wrote: »

ttwinklerub17_ESO wrote: »

try reading Ownedcore or ESOMinion

if the API wasn't open in the first place it would be much tougher to hack

If it was me I would be shutting these sites down as fast as I can

Is it really that difficult for you to find and link the specific posts which you are trying to reference? Or do you really not care to prove your point? I do not have the time to sit down and read every single thread in those forums, nor do I particularly want to. That said, I really do not want to just dismiss your statement for lacking supporting evidence, but you are not making that easy.

Because none of the threads there are actual addons. They're mods that require changing code/scripts.

Blackwolfe5 · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Third party software with a Lua scripting engine running on top of ESO that can among other things simulate keystrokes. Completely zero reliance on the ESO addon API. Get this in your thick skulls.

Swtor has bots, gw2 has bots. Yet no addons.

magic_is_might · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Blackwolfe5 wrote: »

Third party software with a Lua scripting engine running on top of ESO that can among other things simulate keystrokes. Completely zero reliance on the ESO addon API. Get this in your thick skulls.

Swtor has bots, gw2 has bots. Yet no addons.

Once again proving that people do not know the difference between a mod and an addon. Which is like the 1st thing I said in this thread.

ttwinklerub17_ESO · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

they use ESO API
and some of their own API

ie..
MAIN FEATURES:
Full access to the ESO LUA API
Full access to the ESO LUA EVENT system
Full access to our LUA API
Using our awesome mesh-navigation-system with an improved mesher and the new dynamic avoidance features included -> never walk stupidly the same path like all the other bots!
3D and 2D Radar /ESP / whatever you call it
(For now) AssistMode, GrindMode, GatherMode etc.
Deconstruction, Refining, AutoMail, Potions, Block/Int

they have to use ESO API functions to some degree - at least for part of it

they fact is they didn't close the system and put protections is was a big mistake

Im all for add-ins - under conditions that the API is locked down (barring memory hacks- and encryption mechs/duplication checksuming for hack prevention)

code has to go thru inspection and OK

Blackwolfe5 · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

magic_is_might wrote: »

Blackwolfe5 wrote: »

Third party software with a Lua scripting engine running on top of ESO that can among other things simulate keystrokes. Completely zero reliance on the ESO addon API. Get this in your thick skulls.

Swtor has bots, gw2 has bots. Yet no addons.

Once again proving that people do not know the difference between a mod and an addon. Which is like the 1st thing I said in this thread.

I know, it's like they refuse to read. I'm amazed that they found the on button on their computer.

Blackwolfe5 · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Well of course they use it to a degree. But looking down the addon API would have close to zero impact to the bots. They don't have any more access to the api than we do.

But hey, let's ban cars, because you know they can be used as getaway cars on robberies. (also, no, they do this even without a drivers license.

Locking down the api or remove any addon capability is NOT the way to go.

Ciarán · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

ttwinklerub17_ESO wrote: »

they use ESO API
and some of their own API

ie..
MAIN FEATURES:
Full access to the ESO LUA API
Full access to the ESO LUA EVENT system
Full access to our LUA API
Using our awesome mesh-navigation-system with an improved mesher and the new dynamic avoidance features included -> never walk stupidly the same path like all the other bots!
3D and 2D Radar /ESP / whatever you call it
(For now) AssistMode, GrindMode, GatherMode etc.
Deconstruction, Refining, AutoMail, Potions, Block/Int

they have to use ESO API functions to some degree - at least for part of it

they fact is they didn't close the system and put protections is was a big mistake

Im all for add-ins - under conditions that the API is locked down (barring memory hacks- and encryption mechs/duplication checksuming for hack prevention)

code has to go thru inspection and OK

I would ask you once more for a link, but I do know what exactly you are quoting. That being the features list of ESOMinion. There are multiple problems with your "proof".

First off, ESOMinion is not a bot. It is a tool/common library to aid in the development of addons, and something to enable consumers to easily manage addons.

Second, it allows access to the ESO LUA API. It does not state that the functions it defines, the Minion LUA API, depend upon the ESO LUA API. It may, it may not, but either way that is pure speculation and without seeing the source code one cannot say it does.

Third, have you looked at the ESOMinion documentation? I doubt you have, otherwise you would know that any of the functions which would enable someone to create a bot are either private and not allowed at all (movement, attack, etc) or disallowed during battle (targeting, use item, etc). If those functions were available and allowed all of the time, then I would have to agree with you, but they are not.

None of this supports your original claim. What you have linked is not a bot, is not intended to be used to create a bot, and as far as I can tell from reading the documentation cannot be used to create a bot.

Talmet · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Jeremy wrote: »

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

PhoenixWing wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

PhoenixWing wrote: »

P.S. @ZeroInspiration‌ I think that add-on don't work anymore since the patch that stop allowing you to teleport to yourself.

link:
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info224-Jumper.html

But for awhile at least it did work.

So it enabled cheating. That is proof enough right there that these add-ons can be used to cheat. Because it has already happened.

I agree with you that add-ons should not be allowed to perform features that do not exist.

However, in this case (Jumper add-on), it is the fault on Zenimax part, not the add-ons' that let this feature slipped.
Also, the fact that they fixed it confirms that they mistakenly made it available, so please do not use these bugs as an argument.

You can't just ignore that it happened for the sake of debate.

The fact remains there has already been at least one add-on that allowed players to cheat. Rather it was Zenimax's fault or not is irrelevant to my argument.

It has already happened and will happen again. It's a legitimate concern and shouldn't be mocked or discounted (I'm not saying you did).

Jumper did not provide a feature that someone who didn't have jumper did not have.

Prior to the fix, any player (both those with & without jumper), could open up their guild screen & teleport to themselves.

Jumper's only function was to save you like...10 seconds of time, so that instead of having to press G & then find your name, right click & click "teleport to player", you could just use the addon to do those things. (note, you can still do it to any other player in a guild you are a member of, the fix was that you can't go to yourself anymore.) (note, I never used jumper, as I rarely want to teleport to the closest wayshrine...instead I just teleport to another guild member in the same zone, which usually puts me back in a city with merchants/crafting/etc).

There was nothing that the addon did, that could not be easily done by someone who did not have the addon.

So...no, there has not been an instance of an addon that provided a feature that did not exist in the game for ESO yet.

As to the whole..."ESO dev's are lazy" nonsense.....no, they just have other priorities.

Do I want a search function for the guild store? Yes.
Do I want ZOS to take a programmer off of fixing quest breaking bugs, and have them work on the guild store UI instead? No.

The problem here is, that many of you seem to believe that ZOS has infinite resources & personnel. They don't...they have to prioritize where to spend their time.

UI fixes are important, so are breaking botting programs, fixing bugs, preparing to move the EU servers actually to EU, finishing content that was promised (i.e. dark brotherhood, crime system, thieves guild, housing, etc), and many many other things. ZOS does not have the money or the personnel to have hundreds of programmers working on everything at once (no company does), so they have to prioritize.

You may disagree with their priorities, but claiming that a company is lazy because they put something you care about lower on the priority list than you would prefer is rather self-centered.

I don't ever remember claiming the company is lazy. But I will, at least when it comes to certain things. And I do believe an over-reliance on addons is at least partly to blame in this regard.

The guild store interface for example is sloppy and lazily put together. It's barely usable in fact. And pointing that out doesn't mean I'm self-centered. It just means I can recognize lazy design.

I like this game. But I'm not going to excuse their mistakes simply because they don't have infinite resources and personal like you seem to suggest. Because no company has infinite resources and personal. That's a cop out and be used to justify anything.

Many people in this thread have stated that ZOS is lazy.

I was not really talking about the viewpoint behind the complaints in this thread, but with the manner the complaints are made...

I agree, with addons, the game dev's can shelve pretty much all UI concerns & focus on other things. If you believe that they should shelve other concerns & focus on the UI instead, that's fine....I disagree, & apparently so do the dev's.

If you want the dev's to actually switch their priorities & work on the UI, then you should provide reasons other than just telling them it's a cop out. Provide reasons, and not just because "the UI is important" or because "I want you to". Why is fixing the UI more important (not just to you, but to the entire game) than <insert some other feature that you believe should be shelved>?....they are a business, if people gave them reasons why fixing the UI would make more business sense then adding new content or fixing bugs, they'd be more likely to do it than if people just call them lazy.

Prior to SWTOR's launch, there was an interview with one of the head dev's where he talked about how people complaining about specific content not being included in a game was basically ignored by every dev in the industry...because they can't do everything, and complaints never take that into account. It is always just "WHAT? THERE ISN'T HOUSING?!?!? THIS GAME WILL FAIL!!!!" If you want game dev's to actually listen to your complaints, take into account that there are only X number of programmers working for the company, if you want some new feature added, then some other feature will have fewer programmers working on it & will not be done as quickly/well/etc...

Our basic disagreement seems to be you think its ok for the developers to rely on addons to provide a quality and customizable interface and I don't. And as you say that's fine and people disagree.

That being said though, it's mostly my past experiences with addons in other games that have lead me to be so against them. It doesn't really have much to do with the UI.

I think that there are only X number of programmers working at ZOS.
I think that there are many issues that need to be addressed in the game.
I think that there aren't enough programmers working at ZOS to fix everything by next week.
I think that some fixes have a higher priority than others.
I think that by allowing addons to fix UI issues, they can redirect their focus to other issues.

Is any of what I listed above wrong?

If you were a player that could not progress in the main quest (and therefore, could not access veteran content), would you think it was ok if ZOS put out a statement saying "we're going to stop working on all quest breaking bugs, and focus instead on adding UI features to the game for the foreseeable future."?

Some of the UI in this game - such as the guild store - is just atrocious. That should be a priority of there's, at least in my opinion. And relying on addons to do that for them is a mistake. Again, at least in my opinion.

We can disagree about what their priorities should be. But I do believe an effective UI is crucial to providing a quality game. And to delegate such an important aspect over to addons is a foolish decision from my perspective.

I agree, fixing the guild store should be a priority. The question is, how high?
You didn't answer my question, so I'll restate it.

Should fixing the guild store be a higher priorit than fixing quest breaking bugs? Meaning, should ZOS take programmers who are currently working on fixing quest breaking bugs and reassign them to fixing the guild store?

Oh, and any claim that fixing the guild store would take just a few hours, would be a) silly, and just show how little you know about adding/editing a program as complex as ESO & b) pointless, as I could make the same claim about fixing a single quest bug.

JessieColt · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Jeremy wrote: »

JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

cliveklgb14_ESO wrote: »

Except the mod architecture doesn't allow for that. So your point is moot.

No, it was an example. Let the concept wash over you.

Same with your lumping bot programs that have nothing to do with mod architecture, with addons.

I have never said the word bot one time in this whole thread.

If something unexpected happens they didn't intend, they can and will likely fix it.

You think that if a mod screws up our game, ZOS will fix it? Please show me any reason for believing that other than blind faith in ZOS.

But that is their decision on what they find acceptable, not yours. And clearly, they don't agree with you, as most responses.

And so we end up with you unable to find a single example of a mod that allows people to cheat by ZOS's definitions, in the addons.

I think they do see it as a cheat, but they know that it would be futile to stop it because the information is on websites anyway, so they let it in game.

No you do it whenever people present facts you can't rebut.

Right. That is why I am not here arguing my side.

It is a shame when I say, "okay guys we don't agree, let's just let it go", and you still want to ask me questions like you have to change my mind.

Look guys. You want me to say you win? Will that make you feel all macho?

You win.

Have a nice day.

Let me guess you will say something immature next. Probably that I'm being passive aggressive.

And no, if an add-on/UI Mod breaks, it is up to the person who created it to fix it. ZeniMax didn't write the code, ZeniMax isn't responsible for the code.

That's part of the reason games should not rely on them for important features. They cannot be trusted, and often times provide the user with flawed codes that lead to bugs and system lag. And Zenimax has no responsibility to fix them.

TESO doesn't rely on them for important features, other than, as I mentioned in previous posts, GSS, that I am aware of.

You can chose to trust, or not trust them, that is your choice.

Well what is important and what isn't is subjective. But at least we can agree there is at least one feature of importance they rely on addons for. So that alone is enough that should at least give my argument fair consideration. So let's concentrate on that.

You are right when you say I can choose to trust them or not. The problem happens when I am disadvantaged on the game because I choose not to trust them. Which I already am to some extent - because I have to manually search through dozens of guild store pages to find what I am looking for while others who do trust them have a much easier time browsing.

This effect was compounded a million times over in other games such as WoW where I could not even participate in raids without certain addons. So it nearly forces you to trust these addons. There really wasn't much of a choice in the matter.

Now I am aware this game hasn't reached that point. And addons have not - as of yet - dominated this game and forced players to use them. But I am worried it will happen. And my past experiences with games that did allow addons proves to me it's a very reasonable concern. That is why I oppose them.

Again, what is available and doable in TESO is not the same as the other games. Comparing apples and oranges does not improve your position.

You are not disadvantaged by not using Add-ons in TESO. You are not forced to use add-ons in the game.

It is disheartening to me though, to think that fear of what may happen some number of years in the future, appears to cause you stress about the fact that add-ons are available today, and what they are capable of doing, today, which comes no where close to what you fear.

It would be like saying you will never leave your house again because there was a car accident 10 years ago that hurt someone you knew in college/high school/your town, and you think all cars should be eliminated to prevent you from ever getting into a car accident in the future.

Talmet · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Jeremy wrote: »

JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

cliveklgb14_ESO wrote: »

Except the mod architecture doesn't allow for that. So your point is moot.

No, it was an example. Let the concept wash over you.

Same with your lumping bot programs that have nothing to do with mod architecture, with addons.

I have never said the word bot one time in this whole thread.

If something unexpected happens they didn't intend, they can and will likely fix it.

You think that if a mod screws up our game, ZOS will fix it? Please show me any reason for believing that other than blind faith in ZOS.

But that is their decision on what they find acceptable, not yours. And clearly, they don't agree with you, as most responses.

And so we end up with you unable to find a single example of a mod that allows people to cheat by ZOS's definitions, in the addons.

I think they do see it as a cheat, but they know that it would be futile to stop it because the information is on websites anyway, so they let it in game.

No you do it whenever people present facts you can't rebut.

Right. That is why I am not here arguing my side.

It is a shame when I say, "okay guys we don't agree, let's just let it go", and you still want to ask me questions like you have to change my mind.

Look guys. You want me to say you win? Will that make you feel all macho?

You win.

Have a nice day.

Let me guess you will say something immature next. Probably that I'm being passive aggressive.

And no, if an add-on/UI Mod breaks, it is up to the person who created it to fix it. ZeniMax didn't write the code, ZeniMax isn't responsible for the code.

That's part of the reason games should not rely on them for important features. They cannot be trusted, and often times provide the user with flawed codes that lead to bugs and system lag. And Zenimax has no responsibility to fix them.

None of which impart any kind of "feature" that does not already exist in the game.

But they do.

The ability to mark multiple node locations on your map is a feature that does not already exist in the game. The ability to do specific searches in the guild store is a feature that does not exist in the game (to be fair you did mention this). The ability to view research times from anywhere is a feature that does not already exist in the game etc. I'll stop here to be brief.

Many many addons supply features that do not already exist in the game.

The ability to mark multiple node locations on your map is not in the current game...true. But if you can tell me how it is different than taking a screenshot of the map, printing it & then marking it with a pen...please do. That "feature" is just convenience, it lets me do the same thing as I could with a printer and a pen.

The ability to do specific searches in the guild store is a feature that is not currently in the game...true. But I can look through the items myself, and find the items. That feature is just convenience, as anyone can look through a list & find things themselves.

The ability to view research times from anywhere is a feature that does not already exist in the game...true But, I can use these things called watches/clocks/timers that exist in the real world & do the exact same thing. All the addon does is let someone set up timers in the game instead of having to use a clock...so, just convenience.

There is no addon that provides you with a feature that can not be easily provided with a pen/paper, a watch, etc..

JessieColt · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Ciarán wrote: »

ttwinklerub17_ESO wrote: »

then I would further you to read online on how the bot makers are using the ESO API and are posting about it

I won't bother posting you the two sites that talk about it

Can you link that information here? Since you have already found this information online, it only makes sense that to support this claim you provide links, rather than force people to search for it (and potentially find nothing.) If I sound snarky, then I do apologize, but I am genuinely curious on this topic, and preliminary google searches have not yielded any results.

The ESO API provides information for the bots (the same information that the Add-Ons have access to regarding timers, node locations, etc.), but it is not how the bots actually work. Removing access to the API (shutting down add-ons) would not in any way eliminate bots in the system, it would only serve to force the bot creators to pull that information manually or get it uploaded to their own servers by their users. Which would not, in any way, stop or slow them down, and would only serve to cut off convenience of the information by non botting users.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/77517/bots-the-technical-reasons-behind-them/p1

Battlefield 4 does not permit user mods, and they repeatedly say they will not in the future support or allow user mods in BF4. However, BF 4 has cheaters and game hacks.

Preventing add-ons/ui mods in BF 4 has done nothing to stem the flow of the tide regarding hacks and cheating.

This is because hacks and cheats and bots are not created and run through the API that serves the add-ons/UI mods, even if they do pull and use the same information that is available through the API.

EliteZ · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Blackwidow wrote: »

EliteZ wrote: »

Sorry, but you're an idiot.

Well, atleast you start off polite.

Ever thought that what the developers, you or I might like another person out there is going to like something else.

Yes, they are called options.

You might like the default UI, I personally don't like it and use a unit frame addon to get it looking how I want. Is Zeni suppose to make every possible UI so that everyone is happy with the box-standard game?

No.

What they are supposed to do is give basic user friendly tools. This game lacks that in a major way.

And no, there isn't a single add-on available for ESO that lets you "cheat" even in the slightest.

Wrong.

Showing where hidden items are in the world is a cheat.

You can't, so stop talking like you know everything just because you might not like to use add-ons.

If you did not have your head so far up your butt, you would know I am not against addons.

Sorry, but you are an idiot.

1. Options? Yes they provide us with options with being able to create the UI that we like the look of, again I will repeat, Zeni can't provide enough options to appeal to every person so they let them do it themselves.

2. Basic user-friendly tools are going to help how? What tools are not user-friendly and how would they make somebody like the default UI any more? I don't like having my hp, magi and stam all spread out across the screen, so how would that help me in the slightest? Instead I use addons to allow me to change the bars/styles/position/sizes to how I want them.

3. No, add-ons that show you "hidden items" are not cheats, or else every single guide on the internet which SS of them are also cheats. QUICK BAN THE INTERNET BECAUSE IT SHOWED ME THE LOCATION OF A SKYSHARD!!!!

JessieColt · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

MrBeatDown wrote: »

NO, this is the top reason why this game has bots. Its because you allow 3rd party programs to be used with this game. It is Op and needs to be nerfed.

It is not. Bots are not run through the ESO API. They use information from the API, but that information is not, and never has been, required to run the bot.

Blackwolfe5 · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Ciarán wrote: »

ttwinklerub17_ESO wrote: »

they use ESO API
and some of their own API

ie..
MAIN FEATURES:
Full access to the ESO LUA API
Full access to the ESO LUA EVENT system
Full access to our LUA API
Using our awesome mesh-navigation-system with an improved mesher and the new dynamic avoidance features included -> never walk stupidly the same path like all the other bots!
3D and 2D Radar /ESP / whatever you call it
(For now) AssistMode, GrindMode, GatherMode etc.
Deconstruction, Refining, AutoMail, Potions, Block/Int

they have to use ESO API functions to some degree - at least for part of it

they fact is they didn't close the system and put protections is was a big mistake

Im all for add-ins - under conditions that the API is locked down (barring memory hacks- and encryption mechs/duplication checksuming for hack prevention)

code has to go thru inspection and OK

I would ask you once more for a link, but I do know what exactly you are quoting. That being the features list of ESOMinion. There are multiple problems with your "proof".

First off, ESOMinion is not a bot. It is a tool/common library to aid in the development of addons, and something to enable consumers to easily manage addons.

Second, it allows access to the ESO LUA API. It does not state that the functions it defines, the Minion LUA API, depend upon the ESO LUA API. It may, it may not, but either way that is pure speculation and without seeing the source code one cannot say it does.

Third, have you looked at the ESOMinion documentation? I doubt you have, otherwise you would know that any of the functions which would enable someone to create a bot are either private and not allowed at all (movement, attack, etc) or disallowed during battle (targeting, use item, etc). If those functions were available and allowed all of the time, then I would have to agree with you, but they are not.

None of this supports your original claim. What you have linked is not a bot, is not intended to be used to create a bot, and as far as I can tell from reading the documentation cannot be used to create a bot.

Actually, mmoui's addon manager, minion.. is completely different than esominion. Esominion is indeed bot software. (why are we even talking about specific names. Posting this info is basically free advertising for the people who make these botting programs)

But that's beside the point. They have no more access to the addon api than what addon developers have.

magic_is_might · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

I'm really not sure what's so difficult to grasp. And again, 15 pages and not one of them can provide a legitimate reason against addons.

Here are the "reasons" I've seen. And none of then hold water and/or are based out of misinformation

1. "Cheating" by being able to see Skyshard/lorebook/chest/whatever location - not really cheating. More convenience as this info is readily available online.

2. Bots - not possible with actual addons. Only with the use of 3rd party software, aka mods. Botting will happen with or without addons/API.

3. Having a more efficient UI is unfair to other players - because being able to navigate my menus better than vanilla interface somehow gives me an edge over someone else.

4. Access to info on screen others might not have - like combat text that shows outgoing damage, etc. This is info we should already be privy to. Or we already have access to. It has zero effect on actual gameplay as it does not modify information. Because seeing information is somehow cheating or unfair?

Okay, what are some legit "cheats" that addons enable? I can tell you that there are none.

JessieColt · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

ttwinklerub17_ESO wrote: »

they use ESO API
and some of their own API

ie..
MAIN FEATURES:
Full access to the ESO LUA API
Full access to the ESO LUA EVENT system
Full access to our LUA API
Using our awesome mesh-navigation-system with an improved mesher and the new dynamic avoidance features included -> never walk stupidly the same path like all the other bots!
3D and 2D Radar /ESP / whatever you call it
(For now) AssistMode, GrindMode, GatherMode etc.
Deconstruction, Refining, AutoMail, Potions, Block/Int

they have to use ESO API functions to some degree - at least for part of it

they fact is they didn't close the system and put protections is was a big mistake

Im all for add-ins - under conditions that the API is locked down (barring memory hacks- and encryption mechs/duplication checksuming for hack prevention)

code has to go thru inspection and OK

No, they use their own LUA, and run it with the ESO LUA.

The only thing the API does is pull information regarding nodes, timers, etc. The exact same information that Add-ons use to show us a mini-map, research timers, and record nodes on the map.

Removing access to the API will do NOTHING to stop the bots because the bots do not run through the API. The API provides information only.

The bots can run without access to that information. The bots can, and would, gather their own information in logs and then use that information in the same way they use the information from the API (since it is exactly the same information).

The bots either get the information from their own users, or they get it from the API. It makes no difference where they get it from.

Blocking the information by disabling the API and preventing add-ons would have NO affect on the Bots, except maybe to make their code base larger because they would now need to log their own information instead of pulling it from the API.

AND.. they have been around long enough now that they have a nice full database of information already, so blocking the API would maybe, MAYBE slow the bots down by about 1 hour while the new code was added to their own LUA.

skarvika · May 2014

While certain UI things such as health percentage indicators, pvp kill counters, minimaps, etc are fine, I do know there is also an addon that shows where enemy players are in Cyrodiil. This kind of addon should be disallowed.

Blackwolfe5 · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

skarvika wrote: »

While certain UI things such as health percentage indicators, pvp kill counters, minimaps, etc are fine, I do know there is also an addon that shows where enemy players are in Cyrodiil. This kind of addon should be disallowed.

There is? In what way?

This one?
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info319-CyrodiilAlert.html

JessieColt · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

skarvika wrote: »

While certain UI things such as health percentage indicators, pvp kill counters, minimaps, etc are fine, I do know there is also an addon that shows where enemy players are in Cyrodiil. This kind of addon should be disallowed.

Okay, but you can also get most of that information by looking at the map, or by being in voice chat with your friend who is in another alliance but on the same pvp server.

Just knowing where someone, or a group of people, might be, doesn't have much of an affect on the outcome of the battle if you have no clue how to PvP.

Ciarán · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Blackwolfe5 wrote: »

Ciarán wrote: »

ttwinklerub17_ESO wrote: »

they use ESO API
and some of their own API

ie..
MAIN FEATURES:
Full access to the ESO LUA API
Full access to the ESO LUA EVENT system
Full access to our LUA API
Using our awesome mesh-navigation-system with an improved mesher and the new dynamic avoidance features included -> never walk stupidly the same path like all the other bots!
3D and 2D Radar /ESP / whatever you call it
(For now) AssistMode, GrindMode, GatherMode etc.
Deconstruction, Refining, AutoMail, Potions, Block/Int

they have to use ESO API functions to some degree - at least for part of it

they fact is they didn't close the system and put protections is was a big mistake

Im all for add-ins - under conditions that the API is locked down (barring memory hacks- and encryption mechs/duplication checksuming for hack prevention)

code has to go thru inspection and OK

I would ask you once more for a link, but I do know what exactly you are quoting. That being the features list of ESOMinion. There are multiple problems with your "proof".

First off, ESOMinion is not a bot. It is a tool/common library to aid in the development of addons, and something to enable consumers to easily manage addons.

Second, it allows access to the ESO LUA API. It does not state that the functions it defines, the Minion LUA API, depend upon the ESO LUA API. It may, it may not, but either way that is pure speculation and without seeing the source code one cannot say it does.

Third, have you looked at the ESOMinion documentation? I doubt you have, otherwise you would know that any of the functions which would enable someone to create a bot are either private and not allowed at all (movement, attack, etc) or disallowed during battle (targeting, use item, etc). If those functions were available and allowed all of the time, then I would have to agree with you, but they are not.

None of this supports your original claim. What you have linked is not a bot, is not intended to be used to create a bot, and as far as I can tell from reading the documentation cannot be used to create a bot.

Actually, mmoui's addon manager, minion.. is completely different than esominion. Esominion is indeed bot software. (why are we even talking about specific names. Posting this info is basically free advertising for the people who make these botting programs)

But that's beside the point. They have no more access to the addon api than what addon developers have.

Yeah. I went back and looked more into it, and I discovered my mistake. I'm familiar with Minion, but not ESOMinion. I assumed they were the same due to the very similar names, which was my mistake. Futhermore, I'd like to amend my post to specify the API documentation I was looking at was the API provided by Zenimax. It was not very clear when I was looking into it previously that the API documentation was in fact Zenimaxs and not someone elses.

skarvika · May 2014

Blackwolfe5 wrote: »

skarvika wrote: »

While certain UI things such as health percentage indicators, pvp kill counters, minimaps, etc are fine, I do know there is also an addon that shows where enemy players are in Cyrodiil. This kind of addon should be disallowed.

There is? In what way?

This one?
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info319-CyrodiilAlert.html

Not that one...forgot the name of it since I never had an interest in using it. It lets you check the map and see exactly where other players are located regardless if they are stealthed or not.

JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »

skarvika wrote: »

While certain UI things such as health percentage indicators, pvp kill counters, minimaps, etc are fine, I do know there is also an addon that shows where enemy players are in Cyrodiil. This kind of addon should be disallowed.

Okay, but you can also get most of that information by looking at the map, or by being in voice chat with your friend who is in another alliance but on the same pvp server.

Just knowing where someone, or a group of people, might be, doesn't have much of an affect on the outcome of the battle if you have no clue how to PvP.

It has a big impact on strategy. You can see players on the map even if they are stealthed and you can easily see where groups are headed even if no friendly players are near them. It's practically cheating.