JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »Blackwidow wrote: »cliveklgb14_ESO wrote: »Except the mod architecture doesn't allow for that. So your point is moot.
No, it was an example. Let the concept wash over you.Same with your lumping bot programs that have nothing to do with mod architecture, with addons.
I have never said the word bot one time in this whole thread.If something unexpected happens they didn't intend, they can and will likely fix it.
You think that if a mod screws up our game, ZOS will fix it? Please show me any reason for believing that other than blind faith in ZOS.But that is their decision on what they find acceptable, not yours. And clearly, they don't agree with you, as most responses.
And so we end up with you unable to find a single example of a mod that allows people to cheat by ZOS's definitions, in the addons.
I think they do see it as a cheat, but they know that it would be futile to stop it because the information is on websites anyway, so they let it in game.No you do it whenever people present facts you can't rebut.
Right. That is why I am not here arguing my side.
It is a shame when I say, "okay guys we don't agree, let's just let it go", and you still want to ask me questions like you have to change my mind.
Look guys. You want me to say you win? Will that make you feel all macho?
You win.
Have a nice day.
Let me guess you will say something immature next. Probably that I'm being passive aggressive.
And no, if an add-on/UI Mod breaks, it is up to the person who created it to fix it. ZeniMax didn't write the code, ZeniMax isn't responsible for the code.
Tannakaobi wrote: »Rocksteady wrote: »I vote indifference as long as they're limited a little so people can't get too crazy with them. One example being in WoW, most people expect you to have certain addons to do your job. A customizable UI should be where it ends in my opinion but I don't bother with them either way.
This is a Myth, I played WoW for the better part of Six years, I was a tank, a healer and DPS. I ran PVP I ran dungeons. A did a little raiding. Not once was I asked if I had X add-on to continue in a group. Not once.
Tannakaobi wrote: »Rocksteady wrote: »I vote indifference as long as they're limited a little so people can't get too crazy with them. One example being in WoW, most people expect you to have certain addons to do your job. A customizable UI should be where it ends in my opinion but I don't bother with them either way.
This is a Myth, I played WoW for the better part of Six years, I was a tank, a healer and DPS. I ran PVP I ran dungeons. A did a little raiding. Not once was I asked if I had X add-on to continue in a group. Not once.
You were just lucky.
Nearly every raid I participated in demanded that I have certain addons downloaded or I wasn't allowed to participate. I even had friends kicked from groups because of it. I assure you it's no myth.
ttwinklerub17_ESO wrote: »the problem with Add-ins - is lack of control
1. hacking/backdoors/cheating
2. virus and monitoring by other users
3. bugs and un-intended effects on zenimax's already working code - nerfing working stuff
what id rather see is some system that no add-ins are allowed in unless the go thru Quality control by zenimax
that means submission and testing and then getting some form of approval checksum/key that unless it has one that corresponds with that app and code ...it cannot be installed
I would like to see zenimax offer the add-ins on their website and have a small fee for each one that goes back to the original developer
this would spring up mini developers writing game code add-ins that would benefit iutside developers and zenimax - because there is profit for developers (or at leastbreak even status) and zeni gets more people writing apps and possible content in the future
alphawolph wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »Rocksteady wrote: »I vote indifference as long as they're limited a little so people can't get too crazy with them. One example being in WoW, most people expect you to have certain addons to do your job. A customizable UI should be where it ends in my opinion but I don't bother with them either way.
This is a Myth, I played WoW for the better part of Six years, I was a tank, a healer and DPS. I ran PVP I ran dungeons. A did a little raiding. Not once was I asked if I had X add-on to continue in a group. Not once.
You were just lucky.
Nearly every raid I participated in demanded that I have certain addons downloaded or I wasn't allowed to participate. I even had friends kicked from groups because of it. I assure you it's no myth.
My guild in wow requires add-ons to raid. I wouldn't have it any other way.
alphawolph wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »Rocksteady wrote: »I vote indifference as long as they're limited a little so people can't get too crazy with them. One example being in WoW, most people expect you to have certain addons to do your job. A customizable UI should be where it ends in my opinion but I don't bother with them either way.
This is a Myth, I played WoW for the better part of Six years, I was a tank, a healer and DPS. I ran PVP I ran dungeons. A did a little raiding. Not once was I asked if I had X add-on to continue in a group. Not once.
You were just lucky.
Nearly every raid I participated in demanded that I have certain addons downloaded or I wasn't allowed to participate. I even had friends kicked from groups because of it. I assure you it's no myth.
My guild in wow requires add-ons to raid. I wouldn't have it any other way.
That was my point. They have a tendency to become required and players who do not have these addons are ostracized because of it.
We disagree about that being a good thing.
The verdict is in, 81% say YES to addons. End of discussion. Move onto another game 18%'ers.
They have to be fine with addons otherwise they should have given a crap about the ui.alphawolph wrote: »Add-ons are not going any where Zen is running a featured add-on blog I think they are fine with them.
alphawolph wrote: »alphawolph wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »Rocksteady wrote: »I vote indifference as long as they're limited a little so people can't get too crazy with them. One example being in WoW, most people expect you to have certain addons to do your job. A customizable UI should be where it ends in my opinion but I don't bother with them either way.
This is a Myth, I played WoW for the better part of Six years, I was a tank, a healer and DPS. I ran PVP I ran dungeons. A did a little raiding. Not once was I asked if I had X add-on to continue in a group. Not once.
You were just lucky.
Nearly every raid I participated in demanded that I have certain addons downloaded or I wasn't allowed to participate. I even had friends kicked from groups because of it. I assure you it's no myth.
My guild in wow requires add-ons to raid. I wouldn't have it any other way.
That was my point. They have a tendency to become required and players who do not have these addons are ostracized because of it.
We disagree about that being a good thing.
I know we disagree on this but I thought i would help you make your point.
Add-ons are not going any where Zen is running a featured add-on blog I think they are fine with them.
sevcik.miroslaveb17_ESO wrote: »I voted no, because I never liked any multyplayer game to allow using different software than pure game and official patches. I know there are several harmless addons there, but still I prefer clean game.
Sooner or later we may see addons with huge icons screaming at you that your ulti is ready, that you are low on stamina, mana etc. Even worse it may warn you enemy has ulti ready and what skill are they using etc... I just saw way too much of this crap in WoW. So I might be paranoid now.
Good post and pretty much echoes how I feel about this.
WoW definitely left me paranoid about addons... possibly even a little traumatized. I would loath to see that kind of environment make its way into ESO.
JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »sevcik.miroslaveb17_ESO wrote: »I voted no, because I never liked any multyplayer game to allow using different software than pure game and official patches. I know there are several harmless addons there, but still I prefer clean game.
Sooner or later we may see addons with huge icons screaming at you that your ulti is ready, that you are low on stamina, mana etc. Even worse it may warn you enemy has ulti ready and what skill are they using etc... I just saw way too much of this crap in WoW. So I might be paranoid now.
Good post and pretty much echoes how I feel about this.
WoW definitely left me paranoid about addons... possibly even a little traumatized. I would loath to see that kind of environment make its way into ESO.
TESO isn't WoW.
Blizzard exposed that information in their API's. ZeniMax does not.
And yes, hopefully ZeniMax learned from the screw-up that was/is WoW and learned what NOT to do when it comes to Add-Ons.
And so far, they have been spot on with what they are and are not allowing.
But your fear of what "another game" did should not translate to what this game does.
As I said, TESO is not WoW.
JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »Blackwidow wrote: »cliveklgb14_ESO wrote: »Except the mod architecture doesn't allow for that. So your point is moot.
No, it was an example. Let the concept wash over you.Same with your lumping bot programs that have nothing to do with mod architecture, with addons.
I have never said the word bot one time in this whole thread.If something unexpected happens they didn't intend, they can and will likely fix it.
You think that if a mod screws up our game, ZOS will fix it? Please show me any reason for believing that other than blind faith in ZOS.But that is their decision on what they find acceptable, not yours. And clearly, they don't agree with you, as most responses.
And so we end up with you unable to find a single example of a mod that allows people to cheat by ZOS's definitions, in the addons.
I think they do see it as a cheat, but they know that it would be futile to stop it because the information is on websites anyway, so they let it in game.No you do it whenever people present facts you can't rebut.
Right. That is why I am not here arguing my side.
It is a shame when I say, "okay guys we don't agree, let's just let it go", and you still want to ask me questions like you have to change my mind.
Look guys. You want me to say you win? Will that make you feel all macho?
You win.
Have a nice day.
Let me guess you will say something immature next. Probably that I'm being passive aggressive.
And no, if an add-on/UI Mod breaks, it is up to the person who created it to fix it. ZeniMax didn't write the code, ZeniMax isn't responsible for the code.
That's part of the reason games should not rely on them for important features. They cannot be trusted, and often times provide the user with flawed codes that lead to bugs and system lag. And Zenimax has no responsibility to fix them.
JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »None of which impart any kind of "feature" that does not already exist in the game.JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »Blackwidow wrote: »cliveklgb14_ESO wrote: »Except the mod architecture doesn't allow for that. So your point is moot.
No, it was an example. Let the concept wash over you.Same with your lumping bot programs that have nothing to do with mod architecture, with addons.
I have never said the word bot one time in this whole thread.If something unexpected happens they didn't intend, they can and will likely fix it.
You think that if a mod screws up our game, ZOS will fix it? Please show me any reason for believing that other than blind faith in ZOS.But that is their decision on what they find acceptable, not yours. And clearly, they don't agree with you, as most responses.
And so we end up with you unable to find a single example of a mod that allows people to cheat by ZOS's definitions, in the addons.
I think they do see it as a cheat, but they know that it would be futile to stop it because the information is on websites anyway, so they let it in game.No you do it whenever people present facts you can't rebut.
Right. That is why I am not here arguing my side.
It is a shame when I say, "okay guys we don't agree, let's just let it go", and you still want to ask me questions like you have to change my mind.
Look guys. You want me to say you win? Will that make you feel all macho?
You win.
Have a nice day.
Let me guess you will say something immature next. Probably that I'm being passive aggressive.
And no, if an add-on/UI Mod breaks, it is up to the person who created it to fix it. ZeniMax didn't write the code, ZeniMax isn't responsible for the code.
That's part of the reason games should not rely on them for important features. They cannot be trusted, and often times provide the user with flawed codes that lead to bugs and system lag. And Zenimax has no responsibility to fix them.
JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »Blackwidow wrote: »cliveklgb14_ESO wrote: »Except the mod architecture doesn't allow for that. So your point is moot.
No, it was an example. Let the concept wash over you.Same with your lumping bot programs that have nothing to do with mod architecture, with addons.
I have never said the word bot one time in this whole thread.If something unexpected happens they didn't intend, they can and will likely fix it.
You think that if a mod screws up our game, ZOS will fix it? Please show me any reason for believing that other than blind faith in ZOS.But that is their decision on what they find acceptable, not yours. And clearly, they don't agree with you, as most responses.
And so we end up with you unable to find a single example of a mod that allows people to cheat by ZOS's definitions, in the addons.
I think they do see it as a cheat, but they know that it would be futile to stop it because the information is on websites anyway, so they let it in game.No you do it whenever people present facts you can't rebut.
Right. That is why I am not here arguing my side.
It is a shame when I say, "okay guys we don't agree, let's just let it go", and you still want to ask me questions like you have to change my mind.
Look guys. You want me to say you win? Will that make you feel all macho?
You win.
Have a nice day.
Let me guess you will say something immature next. Probably that I'm being passive aggressive.
And no, if an add-on/UI Mod breaks, it is up to the person who created it to fix it. ZeniMax didn't write the code, ZeniMax isn't responsible for the code.
That's part of the reason games should not rely on them for important features. They cannot be trusted, and often times provide the user with flawed codes that lead to bugs and system lag. And Zenimax has no responsibility to fix them.
Arsenic_Touch wrote: »
Mods alter the game in ways that were not intended.
Addons unlock API functions that are already present in the game.
There's a huge difference, they are not the same.
JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »snip
JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »Blackwidow wrote: »cliveklgb14_ESO wrote: »Except the mod architecture doesn't allow for that. So your point is moot.
No, it was an example. Let the concept wash over you.Same with your lumping bot programs that have nothing to do with mod architecture, with addons.
I have never said the word bot one time in this whole thread.If something unexpected happens they didn't intend, they can and will likely fix it.
You think that if a mod screws up our game, ZOS will fix it? Please show me any reason for believing that other than blind faith in ZOS.But that is their decision on what they find acceptable, not yours. And clearly, they don't agree with you, as most responses.
And so we end up with you unable to find a single example of a mod that allows people to cheat by ZOS's definitions, in the addons.
I think they do see it as a cheat, but they know that it would be futile to stop it because the information is on websites anyway, so they let it in game.No you do it whenever people present facts you can't rebut.
Right. That is why I am not here arguing my side.
It is a shame when I say, "okay guys we don't agree, let's just let it go", and you still want to ask me questions like you have to change my mind.
Look guys. You want me to say you win? Will that make you feel all macho?
You win.
Have a nice day.
Let me guess you will say something immature next. Probably that I'm being passive aggressive.
And no, if an add-on/UI Mod breaks, it is up to the person who created it to fix it. ZeniMax didn't write the code, ZeniMax isn't responsible for the code.
That's part of the reason games should not rely on them for important features. They cannot be trusted, and often times provide the user with flawed codes that lead to bugs and system lag. And Zenimax has no responsibility to fix them.
TESO doesn't rely on them for important features, other than, as I mentioned in previous posts, GSS, that I am aware of.
You can chose to trust, or not trust them, that is your choice.
magic_is_might wrote: »Wow... Improving functionality = advantageous? You'd have to be a crappy player if having better navigation of a games UI and in-game menus gives me an advantage over you.
That is probably the lamest and weakest reason against addons. Oh no, I can filter my inventory better. Somehow that gives me an advantage.
You are grasping.
This will be my last post for the day
It's not grasping to suggest a more functional and efficient UI is advantageous. I would consider that common sense.
If there was no advantage/benefit (which ever word you prefer) to these types of addons then no one would want them to begin with.
It's mostly the addons that give gameplay advantages I have a problem with. UI customization is alright.
No matter how nice or pretty the UI is, there will always be people who want to change it to suit their own personal tastes. There will be people who want to be able to rearrange everything. Maybe they want a percentage number instead of a bar or to use a different font, or what-have-you. This is because everybody has different tastes and preferences.
To say that people want addons simply because of the advantage/benefit they bestow is simply naive - people will want what they want, for a multitude of reasons. Some will want to make the UI even more minimalistic to improve immersion. Some just want changes made for aesthetic purposes. Some people want to be able to have rainbow colored text when they type in chat. They do not have to confer any sort of advantage or benefit; it just gives them a better player experience.
.
Well first I was self centered. Then I was a crappy player. Not I am naïve because I said addons give players advantages
What ever the reasons are that player may want a certain addon, they still offer the player advantages. That's just the simple truth. And its time you and others stop being so defensive about this and just admit that plain and basic fact.
Now rather they are unfair or not is a different discussion and I would have to judge that on a case by case basis. I have seen addons that were unfair. I have seen addons that weren't.
A few things. First, your assertion that I and others need to "stop being so defensive" is, quite frankly, unfair and a bit arrogant. Don't try assume the moral high ground here. Also, I did not say you were naive for saying addons give people an advantage. I said it was naive to claim people only wanted addons because they gave an advantage, i.e. if they gave no advantages then nobody would want them.
Second, I had more than one point in that post. Which, even with your cherry picking, you did not address anything in my post. You just reasserted your claim. So let me reiterate: Before a meaningful middle ground or any form of mutual understanding can be reached, a single set of terminology needs to be agreed upon. What constitutes something that alters gameplay? What does not? Additionally, you keep throwing around the word "advantage". I would argue that, in order for an add-on to provide a player an advantage, the use of that add on would need to put other players at a disadvantage.
So now I am arrogant as well as naïve ^^
Again, addons offer players advantages over the current systems. That is one of the reasons they are used by players in the first place. Sometimes they may offer significant advantages over other players not using these addons as well. But not always.
Some of this is subjective. But yes, I do believe people including yourself are being far too defensive about the word advantage and reading way too much in to it. I don't see that as arrogance. I just think you are misjudging what I intend by using the word.
Something that alters gameplay would be an addon that allows you to do things with your character you could not otherwise do.
I should have mentioned it in my earlier post, but I truly do not mean to insult you or claim that you are naive or arrogant. I apologize if any offense was taken.
In case it was not clear in my earlier posts, let me state it plainly: until we can agree upon what constitutes an advantage, what is meant by "add-on", "mod", etc, then I'm not interested in debating whether or not third party alterations should be allowed to the game. I wasn't trying to debate that in my previous posts, either - hence my surprise at the"defensive" statement. The portion of your quote that I bolded is precisely why I want those terms defined.
I would ask that you clarify exactly what you mean by advantage. We also need to come to an agreement upon terminology. Regarding the term add-on - we seem to have very different ideas as to what that means. To me, an add-on does not impact gameplay, whereas to you it does. Things that impact gameplay I would call a mod or a bot. But technically, all mods could be labeled add-ons, and vice versa. Hence the confusion, which will remain until all parties present use the same term to indicate the same thing.
Thanks for the respectful post. And no apology is necessary.
Part of the problem is the broad context of this thread's opening. The poll doesn't distinguish which addons specifically it is referring too. It also implicates those which give players advantages. So that is likely the reason these types of addons are referred in this debate.
When I say the word advantage I mean to say the addon gives the player some benefit they would not otherwise have. I didn't mean it in a derogatory way. And if you view my initial post where I used this word - it was actually an attempt on my part to be less provocative in respects to the word cheating, which I felt was too controversial.
Let me clarify my position for you:
Addons that are purely cosmetic in nature, such as different skins for your interface or menu adjustments I have no problem with. They offer advantages in terms of personalization but nothing significant.
Addons that provide UI enhancements, such as the ability to more precisely search the guild store or mark multiple locations on the map I can live with. But I do feel these types of addons give significant advantages to the players who use them in terms of convenience and quality of life options. So I would prefer mechanics like these be implemented into the official game and not relied upon by outside sources
Addons that allow the player to be more effective in battle, such as spell detections/warning systems/instant targeting/complex macros etc. I strongly oppose. These sorts of addons do significantly disadvantage other players who do not use them. They also lead to gameplay imbalances, especially in regards to PvP.
This is why generally I am opposed to allowing addons.
Now if ESO is able to keep their impact to a minimal I may soften my position on this. But I am very skeptical that's going to happen - and I fully expect addons to eventually start dominating this game. I could be wrong. We'll see.
Apologies for the lengthy reply. But I felt your post was worthy of a detailed response
ttwinklerub17_ESO wrote: »the problem with Add-ins - is lack of control
1. hacking/backdoors/cheating
2. virus and monitoring by other users
3. bugs and un-intended effects on zenimax's already working code - nerfing working stuff
what id rather see is some system that no add-ins are allowed in unless the go thru Quality control by zenimax
that means submission and testing and then getting some form of approval checksum/key that unless it has one that corresponds with that app and code ...it cannot be installed
I would like to see zenimax offer the add-ins on their website and have a small fee for each one that goes back to the original developer
this would spring up mini developers writing game code add-ins that would benefit iutside developers and zenimax - because there is profit for developers (or at leastbreak even status) and zeni gets more people writing apps and possible content in the future
1. hacking/backdoors/cheating
2. virus and monitoring by other users
JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »But your fear of what "another game" did should not translate to what this game does.
As I said, TESO is not WoW.
ttwinklerub17_ESO wrote: »then I would further you to read online on how the bot makers are using the ESO API and are posting about it
I won't bother posting you the two sites that talk about it
ttwinklerub17_ESO wrote: »then I would further you to read online on how the bot makers are using the ESO API and are posting about it
I won't bother posting you the two sites that talk about it