Should add-ons be allowed?

Blackwidow · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

You are being polite. I will answer your polite questions. Thank you.

EliteZ wrote: »

1. Options? Yes they provide us with options with being able to create the UI that we like the look of, again I will repeat, Zeni can't provide enough options to appeal to every person so they let them do it themselves.

That is why I am for addons.

I know, your next response is, "no your not, you voted no!"

Yes. I voted no, because I was not given a better choice in the stupid poll. (sorry, who ever made the poll)

I have no problems with addons. I use addons. I even use the ones I consider cheats.

I know most of you don't think they are cheats. I'm okay with you not thinking they are cheats.

However, I feel we should not need to use many addons if ZOS did a better job with user friendly tools.

4. Basic user-friendly tools are going to help how? What tools are not user-friendly and how would they make somebody like the default UI any more?

As an example, the AH GUI is horrible. That is not very user friendly. I feel it needs to be made much more user friendly.

I use a lot of crafting and inventory addons. I think those addons are very user friendly and should be part of the options in the actual game.

I don't like having my hp, magi and stam all spread out across the screen, so how would that help me in the slightest?

First, it would not help you in your game, because you don't like them.

Second, that is why they are called options.

Instead I use addons to allow me to change the bars/styles/position/sizes to how I want them.

Right, and IMHO, a lot of those should be in game tools.

Again, options are a good thing.

3. No, add-ons that show you "hidden items" are not cheats, or else every single guide on the internet which SS of them are also cheats. QUICK BAN THE INTERNET BECAUSE IT SHOWED ME THE LOCATION OF A SKYSHARD!!!!

I really don't want to keep arguing the merits of what is cheating and what is not.

BTW, those guides were called cheat guides in my day. Just FYI.

I understand you guys think that having access to information you really should not have is not cheating. I'm okay if you feel that way.

I do.

Can we please just leave it at that and be friends?

Thank you.

Jade1986 · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

They should have had an UI editor INCLUDED IN THE GAME! Mods should not be allowed in MMOs.

Blackwolfe5 · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

skarvika wrote: »

Blackwolfe5 wrote: »

skarvika wrote: »

While certain UI things such as health percentage indicators, pvp kill counters, minimaps, etc are fine, I do know there is also an addon that shows where enemy players are in Cyrodiil. This kind of addon should be disallowed.

There is? In what way?

This one?
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info319-CyrodiilAlert.html

Not that one...forgot the name of it since I never had an interest in using it. It lets you check the map and see exactly where other players are located regardless if they are stealthed or not.

If there is such an addon functions, I agree that whatever makes it possible should be fixed. Non-grouped players shouldn't even be visible on the map and certainly not enemy players.

Talmet · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

skarvika wrote: »

Blackwolfe5 wrote: »

skarvika wrote: »

While certain UI things such as health percentage indicators, pvp kill counters, minimaps, etc are fine, I do know there is also an addon that shows where enemy players are in Cyrodiil. This kind of addon should be disallowed.

There is? In what way?

This one?
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info319-CyrodiilAlert.html

Not that one...forgot the name of it since I never had an interest in using it. It lets you check the map and see exactly where other players are located regardless if they are stealthed or not.

JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »

skarvika wrote: »

While certain UI things such as health percentage indicators, pvp kill counters, minimaps, etc are fine, I do know there is also an addon that shows where enemy players are in Cyrodiil. This kind of addon should be disallowed.

Okay, but you can also get most of that information by looking at the map, or by being in voice chat with your friend who is in another alliance but on the same pvp server.

Just knowing where someone, or a group of people, might be, doesn't have much of an affect on the outcome of the battle if you have no clue how to PvP.

It has a big impact on strategy. You can see players on the map even if they are stealthed and you can easily see where groups are headed even if no friendly players are near them. It's practically cheating.

I don't want to be rude....but, you aren't going to convince anyone that there exists some magical addon that allows you to cheat, unless you provide some proof.

What you are saying is the equivalent of this:

You:
"guys, there's an addon that lets you instantly max all skill lines, and grants you 1000 skill points"

Other poster:
"huh? what's the name?"

You:
"Oh, I don't remember, but it TOTALLY EXISTS! AND it ALSO gives you multiple skill bars so you can have every skill in the game running & hotkeyed."

I have no idea if this mythical addon of which you speak is real, maybe it is, maybe it isn't...I'm skeptical, because of the limitations on the API, I don't think that what you are talking is possible...but I don't know for sure. If it exists, it's bad...but I really really doubt it exists.

Blackwidow · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

Talmet wrote: »

I don't want to be rude....but, you aren't going to convince anyone that there exists some magical addon that allows you to cheat, unless you provide some proof.

I'm not defending his point of view, because I do not see what he is seeing, but the term cheating is apparently a very subjective word.

I think it might be easier to determine what actual addon he feels is cheating.

Then you can decide for yourself if he has a point, from your view.

There are some addons I feel is cheating that apparently most here feel is not.

JessieColt · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

skarvika wrote: »

Blackwolfe5 wrote: »

skarvika wrote: »

While certain UI things such as health percentage indicators, pvp kill counters, minimaps, etc are fine, I do know there is also an addon that shows where enemy players are in Cyrodiil. This kind of addon should be disallowed.

There is? In what way?

This one?
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info319-CyrodiilAlert.html

Not that one...forgot the name of it since I never had an interest in using it. It lets you check the map and see exactly where other players are located regardless if they are stealthed or not.

JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »

skarvika wrote: »

While certain UI things such as health percentage indicators, pvp kill counters, minimaps, etc are fine, I do know there is also an addon that shows where enemy players are in Cyrodiil. This kind of addon should be disallowed.

Okay, but you can also get most of that information by looking at the map, or by being in voice chat with your friend who is in another alliance but on the same pvp server.

Just knowing where someone, or a group of people, might be, doesn't have much of an affect on the outcome of the battle if you have no clue how to PvP.

It has a big impact on strategy. You can see players on the map even if they are stealthed and you can easily see where groups are headed even if no friendly players are near them. It's practically cheating.

Sure, you can stand two opposing groups of people facing each other across a battle field, but if you cannot hit the broadside of a barn with a cannon, knowing that they are 100 yards across the field will impart NO inherent guarantee that you will be the last one standing when the smoke clears.

ZurinArctus · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Yes.

Plenty of talent within the community have made such useful addons. They are not necessary to play the game, but if you wish, you can use them. Even those that are disabled have plenty to gain with some of the addons out there.

If it's a concern of whether or not an addon is advantageous or performing something outside the bounds of metrics or automating mundane tasks, a change in the API itself would resolve these issues without effecting the addon platform as a whole.

JessieColt · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

laced wrote: »

They should have had an UI editor INCLUDED IN THE GAME! Mods should not be allowed in MMOs.

And how much code bloat is acceptable in order to try to cater to the whims and desires of every user?

JessieColt · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Blackwidow wrote: »

Talmet wrote: »

I don't want to be rude....but, you aren't going to convince anyone that there exists some magical addon that allows you to cheat, unless you provide some proof.

I'm not defending his point of view, because I do not see what he is seeing, but the term cheating is apparently a very subjective word.

I think it might be easier to determine what actual addon he feels is cheating.

Then you can decide for yourself if he has a point, from your view.

There are some addons I feel is cheating that apparently most here feel is not.

I am curious to know which add-ons you feel are cheating

Talmet · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Blackwidow wrote: »

Talmet wrote: »

I don't want to be rude....but, you aren't going to convince anyone that there exists some magical addon that allows you to cheat, unless you provide some proof.

I'm not defending his point of view, because I do not see what he is seeing, but the term cheating is apparently a very subjective word.

I think it might be easier to determine what actual addon he feels is cheating.

Then you can decide for yourself if he has a point, from your view.

There are some addons I feel is cheating that apparently most here feel is not.

...that was my point.

He claimed there exists an addon that lets you see player positions on the map.

Another poster asked what addon he was talking about.

He claimed he couldn't remember the name, but that the addon ALSO showed enemy and friendly players who were stealthed.

The question is. Does it exist? What addon is he talking about? I can make up fake addons as well....

i.e. Hey, guys. There's an addon that disables every other players addons if they are in the same zone as you. I like addons, so I don't use it, and I can't remember the name, but it exists. If you don't like addons, go get it, and stop complaining here.

Blackwidow · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »

I am curious to know which add-ons you feel are cheating

You'd be the millionth person to ask me that on this thread.

I think addons that show you stuff, that the game purposely had hidden from players, is a cheat mod, from my point of view.

I think ZOS allows it, because it is easy enough to just cheat by looking it up on websites, so why bother banning it.

I'm not saying it is game breaking. But from a pure morals point of view, it gives players an advantage I don't think was meant to be given.

Addons are supposed to help you have better gui tools, right?

How is showing where the shards are or mage books an improvement on the GUI?

Anyway, just my opinion.

Talmet · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

Talmet wrote: »

I don't want to be rude....but, you aren't going to convince anyone that there exists some magical addon that allows you to cheat, unless you provide some proof.

I'm not defending his point of view, because I do not see what he is seeing, but the term cheating is apparently a very subjective word.

I think it might be easier to determine what actual addon he feels is cheating.

Then you can decide for yourself if he has a point, from your view.

There are some addons I feel is cheating that apparently most here feel is not.

I am curious to know which add-ons you feel are cheating

oops, sry for double post.

He is apparently a part of a very small group of players who have existed for a very long time.

In their view, accessing anything that is not in the base game is cheating.

-Alt-tabbing to look at a map on line=cheating
-Looking up the solution to a puzzle (he hasn't talked about this, but I'd guess from what he has posted that he'd say it was cheating as well.)

There have always been people like that in games, people who viewed game guides/walkthroughs as cheating. Of course most people do have some views on what is cheating and what isn't...i.e. is saving, attempting to perform an action & if you fail, then loading and trying again cheating? Some people say yes, some people say no.

Blackwolfe5 · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

And we've been over this already with the lorebook/skyshard/harvestmap things. I'd say that this particular thing has been done to death and is basically down to perspective. Arguing over semantics on this on these three specific addons is pointless, no matter which side you are on.

But we have not yet seen a single actual example of an addon that people think is cheating above the mentioned ones.

There have also been good points on both sides of the argument and bad points on both sides of the argument. (although personally I feel that the no side has had the larger amount of bad points)

What we can all agree on however (by the sound of it), is that there are certain things that should be in the vanilla UI, such as a proper guild store search, better inventory filters or a grid view and I personally hope ZOS eventually implements these things, while still maintaining the freedom that addon developers currently have.

Furthermore, if an addon ever pops up that does unintended things (an example would be decursive in wow, which allowed for autocleansing, however the capability to automatically de-curse/cleanse etc was later removed by Blizzard, leaving people having to do it manually) those functions should be locked down. Being able to place custom markers on the map is a very important feature that some addons use, but while it might be seen as cheating by some (in the case or lorebooks/harvestmaps/skyshards) I do not think that custom markers should be disallowed.

Blackwidow · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

Talmet wrote: »

n their view, accessing anything that is not in the base game is cheating.

Not anything.

-Alt-tabbing to look at a map on line=cheating

Only if that map shows stuff you should not know about.

-Looking up the solution to a puzzle (he hasn't talked about this, but I'd guess from what he has posted that he'd say it was cheating as well.)

Yes. True.

There have always been people like that in games, people who viewed game guides/walkthroughs as cheating. Of course most people do have some views on what is cheating and what isn't...i.e. is saving, attempting to perform an action & if you fail, then loading and trying again cheating? Some people say yes, some people say no.

That does pretty much sum it up. It's not exactly how I feel, but it is close enough.

Edit: Just to be clear, it does not mean I don't use them.

Madirishman76 · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

david271749 wrote: »

Please state why you voted yes or no below.

Add-ons are needed for some stuff right now like the guildstore I would never find what I wanted without the add-on. Also until they get some of the proc/buff animations right an add-on seemed necessary. I don't like add-ons that warn you of boss mechanics before they hit or count down to the next boss mechanic cause IMO it takes the skill/awareness out of the fight. For now lots of addons are needed to make this game play properly unless ZOS wanted you to not be able to find anything in the guild store or not know when your abilities proc or buffs wear off.

Jade1986 · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »

laced wrote: »

They should have had an UI editor INCLUDED IN THE GAME! Mods should not be allowed in MMOs.

And how much code bloat is acceptable in order to try to cater to the whims and desires of every user?

They shouldn't have to cater to the whims of every player. They should have included a UI editor like SWTOR and basta. Then there was a level playing field, and we wouldnt have to worry about people saying "there is an add on for that" when ZoS should be optimizing and fixing things. Perfect example, the guild store. Instead of fixing it, all we get is "there is an add on for that". I dont use add ons, and never will, I dont pay to have amateurs make add ons. I pay for official patches and support. And before you get offended for me saying the word amateur. They are not getting paid by ZoS, so they are amateurs.

KeynesAlley · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Someone at the start of this thread said that add-ons give "some players" an advantage over others.

This is simply BS because everyone can use add-ons and the ones I've seen are all free. If you don't want to use add-ons, then that's your issue and no reason to prevent others from using them.

diwie · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

I've heard that some guys using teamspeak and other external cheat and trading programs. Compared to this add ons are pretty harmless and some making the game more valuable.

I would agree that spawn points for treasures, harvested and perhaps even skyshards should be more dynamic. Anyway location map add ons are useless to me.

TetsuMaru · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

While I voted yes I will state that I dont use addons at all. But just because I don't it doesn't mean no one else should if they choose to.

david271749 · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

I've voted no, but I'm slowly starting to love add-ons. There are a lot of good ones out there. I just got one that lets me use an xbox controller.

jvh808 · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

Bit late to be asking this question, don't ya think?

david271749 · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

jvh808 wrote: »

Bit late to be asking this question, don't ya think?

Nope

wizzerd_lg_ESO · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

It seems absurd to me that so many claim they shouldn't be allowed because they shouldn't be needed...

It's just not possible for any game (at this point) to be sufficiently customizable to appeal to every player's individual style and preferences. So the game will fall short of many player's desires, and addons take up a lot of that slack without requiring major overhauls of the game itself.

Yes, some addons can allow undesirable effects an exploitation. Those need to be taken off the board, and they seem to do a pretty good job of that for the most part. Oh my god your world isn't going to end because some guild can recruit in pink text...

Blackwidow · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

wizzerd_lg_ESO wrote: »

It seems absurd to me that so many claim they shouldn't be allowed because they shouldn't be needed...

In all fairness, the poll sucked.

It's just not possible for any game (at this point) to be sufficiently customizable to appeal to every player's individual style and preferences. So the game will fall short of many player's desires, and addons take up a lot of that slack without requiring major overhauls of the game itself.

True dat.

However, there still needs to be a higher level of user tools in the actual game.

justin903b14a_ESO · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

laced wrote: »

JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »

laced wrote: »

They should have had an UI editor INCLUDED IN THE GAME! Mods should not be allowed in MMOs.

And how much code bloat is acceptable in order to try to cater to the whims and desires of every user?

They shouldn't have to cater to the whims of every player. They should have included a UI editor like SWTOR and basta. Then there was a level playing field, and we wouldnt have to worry about people saying "there is an add on for that" when ZoS should be optimizing and fixing things. Perfect example, the guild store. Instead of fixing it, all we get is "there is an add on for that". I dont use add ons, and never will, I dont pay to have amateurs make add ons. I pay for official patches and support. And before you get offended for me saying the word amateur. They are not getting paid by ZoS, so they are amateurs.

So if a programmers day time job is 9-5 and they come home and make an addon and get donations for the addons and they make more of them and get a good enough income to quit they're job and make money from just donations for the game does that promotion title become poser?

Jeremy · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

cliveklgb14_ESO wrote: »

Except the mod architecture doesn't allow for that. So your point is moot.

No, it was an example. Let the concept wash over you.

Same with your lumping bot programs that have nothing to do with mod architecture, with addons.

I have never said the word bot one time in this whole thread.

If something unexpected happens they didn't intend, they can and will likely fix it.

You think that if a mod screws up our game, ZOS will fix it? Please show me any reason for believing that other than blind faith in ZOS.

But that is their decision on what they find acceptable, not yours. And clearly, they don't agree with you, as most responses.

And so we end up with you unable to find a single example of a mod that allows people to cheat by ZOS's definitions, in the addons.

I think they do see it as a cheat, but they know that it would be futile to stop it because the information is on websites anyway, so they let it in game.

No you do it whenever people present facts you can't rebut.

Right. That is why I am not here arguing my side.

It is a shame when I say, "okay guys we don't agree, let's just let it go", and you still want to ask me questions like you have to change my mind.

Look guys. You want me to say you win? Will that make you feel all macho?

You win.

Have a nice day.

Let me guess you will say something immature next. Probably that I'm being passive aggressive.

And no, if an add-on/UI Mod breaks, it is up to the person who created it to fix it. ZeniMax didn't write the code, ZeniMax isn't responsible for the code.

That's part of the reason games should not rely on them for important features. They cannot be trusted, and often times provide the user with flawed codes that lead to bugs and system lag. And Zenimax has no responsibility to fix them.

None of which impart any kind of "feature" that does not already exist in the game.

But they do.

The ability to mark multiple node locations on your map is a feature that does not already exist in the game. The ability to do specific searches in the guild store is a feature that does not exist in the game (to be fair you did mention this). The ability to view research times from anywhere is a feature that does not already exist in the game etc. I'll stop here to be brief.

Many many addons supply features that do not already exist in the game.

The ability to mark multiple node locations on your map is not in the current game...true. But if you can tell me how it is different than taking a screenshot of the map, printing it & then marking it with a pen...please do. That "feature" is just convenience, it lets me do the same thing as I could with a printer and a pen.

The ability to do specific searches in the guild store is a feature that is not currently in the game...true. But I can look through the items myself, and find the items. That feature is just convenience, as anyone can look through a list & find things themselves.

The ability to view research times from anywhere is a feature that does not already exist in the game...true But, I can use these things called watches/clocks/timers that exist in the real world & do the exact same thing. All the addon does is let someone set up timers in the game instead of having to use a clock...so, just convenience.

There is no addon that provides you with a feature that can not be easily provided with a pen/paper, a watch, etc..

Do watches/clocks/timers really exist in the real world? This I did not know so thanks for illuminating me

You admit these addons add features that are not currently in the game. Which is what I said.

I also disagree with you that these addons provide features that can be easily provided by other means. Easily is a subjective term to be sure. Especially in this case. Because I would find nothing easy about having to draw my own maps and mark the nodes myself with a pencil. I also find nothing easy about having to search through page after page in nearly a half dozen guild stores trying to find something I would like to buy.

So I agree with you that these addons provide the user with features that would not otherwise exists on the game. I disagree with you that they offer only mild conveniences that are easy to do manually. Because in my opinion, they are not. Which is precisely why these addons are popular to begin with.

Jeremy · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

PhoenixWing wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

PhoenixWing wrote: »

P.S. @ZeroInspiration‌ I think that add-on don't work anymore since the patch that stop allowing you to teleport to yourself.

link:
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info224-Jumper.html

But for awhile at least it did work.

So it enabled cheating. That is proof enough right there that these add-ons can be used to cheat. Because it has already happened.

I agree with you that add-ons should not be allowed to perform features that do not exist.

However, in this case (Jumper add-on), it is the fault on Zenimax part, not the add-ons' that let this feature slipped.
Also, the fact that they fixed it confirms that they mistakenly made it available, so please do not use these bugs as an argument.

You can't just ignore that it happened for the sake of debate.

The fact remains there has already been at least one add-on that allowed players to cheat. Rather it was Zenimax's fault or not is irrelevant to my argument.

It has already happened and will happen again. It's a legitimate concern and shouldn't be mocked or discounted (I'm not saying you did).

Jumper did not provide a feature that someone who didn't have jumper did not have.

Prior to the fix, any player (both those with & without jumper), could open up their guild screen & teleport to themselves.

Jumper's only function was to save you like...10 seconds of time, so that instead of having to press G & then find your name, right click & click "teleport to player", you could just use the addon to do those things. (note, you can still do it to any other player in a guild you are a member of, the fix was that you can't go to yourself anymore.) (note, I never used jumper, as I rarely want to teleport to the closest wayshrine...instead I just teleport to another guild member in the same zone, which usually puts me back in a city with merchants/crafting/etc).

There was nothing that the addon did, that could not be easily done by someone who did not have the addon.

So...no, there has not been an instance of an addon that provided a feature that did not exist in the game for ESO yet.

As to the whole..."ESO dev's are lazy" nonsense.....no, they just have other priorities.

Do I want a search function for the guild store? Yes.
Do I want ZOS to take a programmer off of fixing quest breaking bugs, and have them work on the guild store UI instead? No.

The problem here is, that many of you seem to believe that ZOS has infinite resources & personnel. They don't...they have to prioritize where to spend their time.

UI fixes are important, so are breaking botting programs, fixing bugs, preparing to move the EU servers actually to EU, finishing content that was promised (i.e. dark brotherhood, crime system, thieves guild, housing, etc), and many many other things. ZOS does not have the money or the personnel to have hundreds of programmers working on everything at once (no company does), so they have to prioritize.

You may disagree with their priorities, but claiming that a company is lazy because they put something you care about lower on the priority list than you would prefer is rather self-centered.

I don't ever remember claiming the company is lazy. But I will, at least when it comes to certain things. And I do believe an over-reliance on addons is at least partly to blame in this regard.

The guild store interface for example is sloppy and lazily put together. It's barely usable in fact. And pointing that out doesn't mean I'm self-centered. It just means I can recognize lazy design.

I like this game. But I'm not going to excuse their mistakes simply because they don't have infinite resources and personal like you seem to suggest. Because no company has infinite resources and personal. That's a cop out and be used to justify anything.

Many people in this thread have stated that ZOS is lazy.

I was not really talking about the viewpoint behind the complaints in this thread, but with the manner the complaints are made...

I agree, with addons, the game dev's can shelve pretty much all UI concerns & focus on other things. If you believe that they should shelve other concerns & focus on the UI instead, that's fine....I disagree, & apparently so do the dev's.

If you want the dev's to actually switch their priorities & work on the UI, then you should provide reasons other than just telling them it's a cop out. Provide reasons, and not just because "the UI is important" or because "I want you to". Why is fixing the UI more important (not just to you, but to the entire game) than <insert some other feature that you believe should be shelved>?....they are a business, if people gave them reasons why fixing the UI would make more business sense then adding new content or fixing bugs, they'd be more likely to do it than if people just call them lazy.

Prior to SWTOR's launch, there was an interview with one of the head dev's where he talked about how people complaining about specific content not being included in a game was basically ignored by every dev in the industry...because they can't do everything, and complaints never take that into account. It is always just "WHAT? THERE ISN'T HOUSING?!?!? THIS GAME WILL FAIL!!!!" If you want game dev's to actually listen to your complaints, take into account that there are only X number of programmers working for the company, if you want some new feature added, then some other feature will have fewer programmers working on it & will not be done as quickly/well/etc...

Our basic disagreement seems to be you think its ok for the developers to rely on addons to provide a quality and customizable interface and I don't. And as you say that's fine and people disagree.

That being said though, it's mostly my past experiences with addons in other games that have lead me to be so against them. It doesn't really have much to do with the UI.

I think that there are only X number of programmers working at ZOS.
I think that there are many issues that need to be addressed in the game.
I think that there aren't enough programmers working at ZOS to fix everything by next week.
I think that some fixes have a higher priority than others.
I think that by allowing addons to fix UI issues, they can redirect their focus to other issues.

Is any of what I listed above wrong?

If you were a player that could not progress in the main quest (and therefore, could not access veteran content), would you think it was ok if ZOS put out a statement saying "we're going to stop working on all quest breaking bugs, and focus instead on adding UI features to the game for the foreseeable future."?

Some of the UI in this game - such as the guild store - is just atrocious. That should be a priority of there's, at least in my opinion. And relying on addons to do that for them is a mistake. Again, at least in my opinion.

We can disagree about what their priorities should be. But I do believe an effective UI is crucial to providing a quality game. And to delegate such an important aspect over to addons is a foolish decision from my perspective.

I agree, fixing the guild store should be a priority. The question is, how high?
You didn't answer my question, so I'll restate it.

Should fixing the guild store be a higher priorit than fixing quest breaking bugs? Meaning, should ZOS take programmers who are currently working on fixing quest breaking bugs and reassign them to fixing the guild store?

Oh, and any claim that fixing the guild store would take just a few hours, would be a) silly, and just show how little you know about adding/editing a program as complex as ESO & b) pointless, as I could make the same claim about fixing a single quest bug.

I don't remember making any claims that it would take only a few hours to streamline the guild store interface. So I'm not really sure why you are directing that claim at me. So you might be getting me confused with someone else.

I am sure it would be many hours of programming and testing. But so what. That is their job. If spending a lot of time programming is a problem for them - then they are in the wrong occupation. So that's not an excuse I'm inclined to be sympathetic to.

Now as far as your question: I would prefer that they make giving us an updated and more efficient guild store interface a top priority. This game's economy is bad enough. It doesn't need a sloppy, inefficent and bug-ridden interface to compound it even further.

Talmet · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Jeremy wrote: »

You admit these addons add features that are not currently in the game. Which is what I said.

I also disagree with you that these addons provide features that can be easily provided by other means. Easily is a subjective term to be sure. Especially in this case. Because I would find nothing easy about having to draw my own maps and mark the nodes myself with a pencil. I also find nothing easy about having to search through page after page in nearly a half dozen guild stores trying to find something I would like to buy.

So I agree with you that these addons provide the user with features that would not otherwise exists on the game. I disagree with you that they offer only mild conveniences that are easy to do manually. Because in my opinion, they are not. Which is precisely why these addons are popular to begin with.

Easily is a subjective term...and I said nothing about drawing your own map, I said take a screenshot of the map & print it. And looking through a list to find something is difficult to you? Time consuming sure...but difficult?

Addons are either completely cosmetic (i.e. moving health bars around the screen). Or, they save time (i.e. guild store search, not having to print out the map & mark it with a pen, etc). Cosmetic addons provide nothing other than cater to person preference. I suppose if you really tried you could make an arguement against the addons that save time, claiming that by saving time they provide some advantage by allowing the player to spend that time somewhere else...but a person with a very good memory could do the same thing, is having a good memory something that is unfair?

I mean, lets assume that ZOS comes out and decides that addons can't be used anymore, they close API, institute some warden program that identifies people who use addons & ban them. If someone can just remember where node locations are, so they never used the harvestmap addon...should they be banned from playing because of the advantage they have as well? Didn't the addon just level the playing field between the person with a really good memory, and the person without...

Jeremy wrote: »

I am sure it would be many hours of programming and testing. But so what. That is their job. If spending a lot of time programming is a problem for them - then they are in the wrong occupation. So that's not an excuse I'm inclined to be sympathetic to.

I completely agree, it is their job to program for many hours...the point is that right now, they ARE programming already. It isn't like they show up to work & sit around watching netflix all day and then go home. They are working on other things, implying that they are doing nothing right now & that they are using an excuse to get out of working at all, is pretty insulting.

Jeremy wrote: »

Now as far as your question: I would prefer that they make giving us an updated and more efficient guild store interface a top priority. This game's economy is bad enough. It doesn't need a sloppy, inefficent and bug-ridden interface to compound it even further.

So fixing the UI should be a top priority?

Ok, then I assume you'd be completely fine if for the next few weeks there were no bug fixes, no quest bug fixes, skills weren't fixed, classes weren't balanced, server stability wasn't fixed, botting programs weren't analysed & hopefully broken, etc? Those are all lower priority than fixing the guild store UI, right? Somehow, I think you'd be in the very very small minority on that...

Oh, and as for the economy...the economy is less than 2 months old, it's going to take awhile for the economy to settle. The claim that the economy sucks, or that there is no economy, is a claim that is made in every new MMO & after every expansion of every MMO. Give the player base time so that a good portion of the people reach max lvl, and find what is & what is not useful...the economy will settle down & be fine.

Jeremy · May 2014

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

You admit these addons add features that are not currently in the game. Which is what I said.

I also disagree with you that these addons provide features that can be easily provided by other means. Easily is a subjective term to be sure. Especially in this case. Because I would find nothing easy about having to draw my own maps and mark the nodes myself with a pencil. I also find nothing easy about having to search through page after page in nearly a half dozen guild stores trying to find something I would like to buy.

So I agree with you that these addons provide the user with features that would not otherwise exists on the game. I disagree with you that they offer only mild conveniences that are easy to do manually. Because in my opinion, they are not. Which is precisely why these addons are popular to begin with.

Easily is a subjective term...and I said nothing about drawing your own map, I said take a screenshot of the map & print it. And looking through a list to find something is difficult to you? Time consuming sure...but difficult?

Addons are either completely cosmetic (i.e. moving health bars around the screen). Or, they save time (i.e. guild store search, not having to print out the map & mark it with a pen, etc). Cosmetic addons provide nothing other than cater to person preference. I suppose if you really tried you could make an arguement against the addons that save time, claiming that by saving time they provide some advantage by allowing the player to spend that time somewhere else...but a person with a very good memory could do the same thing, is having a good memory something that is unfair?

I mean, lets assume that ZOS comes out and decides that addons can't be used anymore, they close API, institute some warden program that identifies people who use addons & ban them. If someone can just remember where node locations are, so they never used the harvestmap addon...should they be banned from playing because of the advantage they have as well? Didn't the addon just level the playing field between the person with a really good memory, and the person without...

Jeremy wrote: »

I am sure it would be many hours of programming and testing. But so what. That is their job. If spending a lot of time programming is a problem for them - then they are in the wrong occupation. So that's not an excuse I'm inclined to be sympathetic to.

I completely agree, it is their job to program for many hours...the point is that right now, they ARE programming already. It isn't like they show up to work & sit around watching netflix all day and then go home. They are working on other things, implying that they are doing nothing right now & that they are using an excuse to get out of working at all, is pretty insulting.

Jeremy wrote: »

Now as far as your question: I would prefer that they make giving us an updated and more efficient guild store interface a top priority. This game's economy is bad enough. It doesn't need a sloppy, inefficent and bug-ridden interface to compound it even further.

So fixing the UI should be a top priority?

Ok, then I assume you'd be completely fine if for the next few weeks there were no bug fixes, no quest bug fixes, skills weren't fixed, classes weren't balanced, server stability wasn't fixed, botting programs weren't analysed & hopefully broken, etc? Those are all lower priority than fixing the guild store UI, right? Somehow, I think you'd be in the very very small minority on that...

Oh, and as for the economy...the economy is less than 2 months old, it's going to take awhile for the economy to settle. The claim that the economy sucks, or that there is no economy, is a claim that is made in every new MMO & after every expansion of every MMO. Give the player base time so that a good portion of the people reach max lvl, and find what is & what is not useful...the economy will settle down & be fine.

I think I've lost track what we are debating here.

I never said addons didn't save time. I said they add features that are not currently in the game. Which you agreed with.

Where we disagreed is you think it's easy to track crafting nodes manually or search the guild store page by page. I don't.

I think fixing the Guild Store interface should be a top priority. You don't. We should probably just agree to disagree about this. Because I think you're exaggerating when you act as if they could not fix anything else if they took the time to improve it.

And we disagree about this game's economy. But that belongs in another thread so in the interest of staying on topic I'll refrain from getting into that.

Talmet · May 2014

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Jeremy wrote: »

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

You admit these addons add features that are not currently in the game. Which is what I said.

I also disagree with you that these addons provide features that can be easily provided by other means. Easily is a subjective term to be sure. Especially in this case. Because I would find nothing easy about having to draw my own maps and mark the nodes myself with a pencil. I also find nothing easy about having to search through page after page in nearly a half dozen guild stores trying to find something I would like to buy.

So I agree with you that these addons provide the user with features that would not otherwise exists on the game. I disagree with you that they offer only mild conveniences that are easy to do manually. Because in my opinion, they are not. Which is precisely why these addons are popular to begin with.

Easily is a subjective term...and I said nothing about drawing your own map, I said take a screenshot of the map & print it. And looking through a list to find something is difficult to you? Time consuming sure...but difficult?

Addons are either completely cosmetic (i.e. moving health bars around the screen). Or, they save time (i.e. guild store search, not having to print out the map & mark it with a pen, etc). Cosmetic addons provide nothing other than cater to person preference. I suppose if you really tried you could make an arguement against the addons that save time, claiming that by saving time they provide some advantage by allowing the player to spend that time somewhere else...but a person with a very good memory could do the same thing, is having a good memory something that is unfair?

I mean, lets assume that ZOS comes out and decides that addons can't be used anymore, they close API, institute some warden program that identifies people who use addons & ban them. If someone can just remember where node locations are, so they never used the harvestmap addon...should they be banned from playing because of the advantage they have as well? Didn't the addon just level the playing field between the person with a really good memory, and the person without...

Jeremy wrote: »

I am sure it would be many hours of programming and testing. But so what. That is their job. If spending a lot of time programming is a problem for them - then they are in the wrong occupation. So that's not an excuse I'm inclined to be sympathetic to.

I completely agree, it is their job to program for many hours...the point is that right now, they ARE programming already. It isn't like they show up to work & sit around watching netflix all day and then go home. They are working on other things, implying that they are doing nothing right now & that they are using an excuse to get out of working at all, is pretty insulting.

Jeremy wrote: »

Now as far as your question: I would prefer that they make giving us an updated and more efficient guild store interface a top priority. This game's economy is bad enough. It doesn't need a sloppy, inefficent and bug-ridden interface to compound it even further.

So fixing the UI should be a top priority?

Ok, then I assume you'd be completely fine if for the next few weeks there were no bug fixes, no quest bug fixes, skills weren't fixed, classes weren't balanced, server stability wasn't fixed, botting programs weren't analysed & hopefully broken, etc? Those are all lower priority than fixing the guild store UI, right? Somehow, I think you'd be in the very very small minority on that...

Oh, and as for the economy...the economy is less than 2 months old, it's going to take awhile for the economy to settle. The claim that the economy sucks, or that there is no economy, is a claim that is made in every new MMO & after every expansion of every MMO. Give the player base time so that a good portion of the people reach max lvl, and find what is & what is not useful...the economy will settle down & be fine.

I think I've lost track what we are debating here.

I never said addons didn't save time. I said they add features that are not currently in the game. Which you agreed with.

Where we disagreed is you think it's easy to track crafting nodes manually or search the guild store page by page. I don't.

I think fixing the Guild Store interface should be a top priority. You don't. We should probably just agree to disagree about this. Because I think you're exaggerating when you act as if they could not fix anything else if they took the time to improve it.

And we disagree about this game's economy. But that belongs in another thread so in the interest of staying on topic I'll refrain from getting into that.

If something is the top priority, then you have most/all of your people working on it. If they take most/all of their programmers and put them on fixing the guild store, then they won't have as many (or any) programmers working on fixing other things (which means those other things don't get fixed).

If you actually just meant that fixing the guild store should be higher on the priority list & have one or two people working on it. Ok, then what were those programmers working on before?

i.e. Should they be taking programmers who are currently working on fixing quest bugs & have them instead work on the guild store? If so, quest bugs won't get fixed as fast.

As for the economy, I agree it isn't part of this topic...but you brought it up.