The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Detailed Feedback on Miat's PvP Alerts after Testing and Some Concerns with the Capacity of Add-ons
susmitds
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Greetings,
I have been doing some tests with the forementioned add-on in multiple cases. I am stating my findings below in a case by case analysis.
Now, given my findings, I got some concerns with Miat's PvP Alerts.
Also I have some concerns about the extent to which add-ons can affect the game.
There are some private scripts and add-ons, that are highly intrusive in nature. For e.g. a certain modder created a memory hook that allows add-ons to use Protected LUA API including actual activation of skills, dodges, etc (check Hook64 premium). It is most likely also possible to achieve to achieve the same by hexediting the executable and also via memory-altering tools like Cheat Engine, Art Money, etc. Even if Cheat Engine gets somehow blocked, there are many other less known memory-altering tools available and it is fairly easy for a modder to make a memory-altering program. While that certain person never released his version of the hook, at least publicly, it is possible to have been circulated privately. There are quite a few hooks, modded executables and similar tools in circulation, allowing existence of even more intrusive private add-ons and scripts and even direct memory hacks (like infinite ultimate that was disclosed few months ago). As such, I think there should be some changes need to be made to make the game code somewhat more secure and have better regulation to what information add-ons can access.
I have been doing some tests with the forementioned add-on in multiple cases. I am stating my findings below in a case by case analysis.
- In a group with 16 players doing regular keep sieges - Everyone was instructed to have Radiant Magelight, 4 of us had detection potions and 2 of us were using Infernal Guardian. I personally was using Sentry and Way of the Air to test with the add-on. The add-on seems to have a figuratively large radius. We were getting pretty regular stealth alerts from the add-on and it was pretty accurate on that point. Generally speaking, popping Magelight all at once (albeit it was pretty damn hard to get everybody use it at once in a PUG) nearly always seemed to stop an inpending gank. Combined with Sentry and Way of the Air, it was rather easy to detect the stealthed players even without Magelight and detect pots. Even if those failed, double Infernal Guardian detected the hidden players each and every time. Also if somebody managed to start a gank attempt without triggering the stealth alert, the add-on basically sends out an emergency alert to everybody else, making it pretty easy to pin them down. It was pretty useful to detect and kill incoming defenders and camp placers in sieges.
- With a friend in his magicka nightblade in another alliance - I am not using any stealth detection gear here. While the overall detection capabilities of the add-on seemed to be a bit lesser while not in group, I noticed some interesting things. Some alliance guard NPCs have a significantly large detection radius and pulls players out of true stealth when nearby though it is possible to cloak through it. This action also triggers a stealth alert in the add-on even though, I technically had no prior awareness of the incoming stealthed player; making it possible for the add-on to detect cloaked enemies once they regain true stealth. This becomes incredibly useful in inside keeps and in resources, where simply the presence of nearby NPCs is enough to register an stealth event in the add-on. Also, there are several skills that momentarily break stealth, like Rapid Manouver, Vigor, Lightweight Beast Trap, Refreshing Path. Practically any ground based AoE, any summoning skill and anything that affects more than one enemy will break stealth. The most significantly skill with this behavior is Shadow Image, which is pretty common in the arsenal of many nightblades of both resource variants. It is most commonly used before attempting to bomb groups and also before ganking targets in big groups as a possible escape. The case is that the moment the user restealths after activating Shadow Image, it trigger a stealth alert in the add-on.
- Running solo - Paired with stealth-detection gear, I was getting quite a lot of stealth alerts. In one particular case, the opponent managed to cloak out very fast without giving enough of a window to fully detect the player (in fact I did not still notice him) but he triggered a stealth alert and it was easy to find him with Caltrops. Once you know that there are nearby gankers, it is not generally hard to guess where they are, if you got some prior experience ganking. Given the builds of gankers, it is not really hard to kill them if you catch them pants-down (unless they stack proc sets and you don't
). Also, if there is a nearby gank attempt on somebody closeby, you still get an alert even if you are not in a group with them.
Now, given my findings, I got some concerns with Miat's PvP Alerts.
- Firstly, even though the add-on does not detect players that never breaks stealth, actually currently moving around in full stealth in medium-large scale conflicts while looking for potential targets is like walking on very thin ice. Sooner or later, it will break somehow or the other. Now even if you cloak and regain stealth, you will be detected in the stealth alert.
- Now, at this point even if you have no idea that the enemies know of your presence, they can check some of the valid areas with proper skills to sniff you out. Also, with Infernal Guardian even that's not necessary, just an enemy spamming shields will get your exact location and pull you out. This add-on, when paired with Infernal Guardian, will make users nearly ungankable.
- At this point, even if you get a perfect gank without alerting anybody, the add-on immediately sends an alert to everybody nearby about it making it much harder to get away and almost impossible against organized groups.
- Most of the attack detections have been primarily designed against gankers. It pretty much nullifies the playstyle of melee bow builds (bow heavy attack canceled by Ambush/Suprise Attack is staple for such builds). Destro heavy attack, Assassin's Will are primary attacks of the magblade gankers. 2H/DW heavies and ambush are staple for the usual stamblade gankers. Bow heavy, Lethal Arrow are staple for DK and NB snipers.
- Prior information of certain players in a range will allow you to change your gear/skills to counter their build.
- Also, most actions in the game break stealth like burning siege, using doors, fixing walls. So basically the moment you execute one such action, even if not detected directly, the enemies will be alerted. This will be make defending keeps when outnumbered much harder, especially against organized groups, as you wont be able to fix walls behind them. In fact, they will be alerted the moment defenders enter or exit the keep. This benefits only the side with higher numbers.
- In fact lots of tactics and strategies of the alliance war revolves around stealth play. Trivializing stealth affects these badly.
- Organized guilds and ball zergs are more rewarded with the addon than small groups and soloers.
Also I have some concerns about the extent to which add-ons can affect the game.
There are some private scripts and add-ons, that are highly intrusive in nature. For e.g. a certain modder created a memory hook that allows add-ons to use Protected LUA API including actual activation of skills, dodges, etc (check Hook64 premium). It is most likely also possible to achieve to achieve the same by hexediting the executable and also via memory-altering tools like Cheat Engine, Art Money, etc. Even if Cheat Engine gets somehow blocked, there are many other less known memory-altering tools available and it is fairly easy for a modder to make a memory-altering program. While that certain person never released his version of the hook, at least publicly, it is possible to have been circulated privately. There are quite a few hooks, modded executables and similar tools in circulation, allowing existence of even more intrusive private add-ons and scripts and even direct memory hacks (like infinite ultimate that was disclosed few months ago). As such, I think there should be some changes need to be made to make the game code somewhat more secure and have better regulation to what information add-ons can access.
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Aztlan✭✭✭✭Excellent, well-thought-out analysis. Miat, through his arrogant attempt to "level the playing field," has instead ruined PvP even further.20 -
Wollust✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭But using a bugged set like infernal guardian to detect and prevent stealth is totally legit? Susano'o
Zerg Squad10 -
Grabmoore✭✭✭✭✭As I thought, this hurts small scale and promotes zerging even more. We need proc sets to vanish, not structured PvP!EU - PC - Ebonheart Pact
Iggy Grabmoore - Argonian Magicka Templar | Nyctasha - Redguard Stamina Nightblade
Do-Ra'Zhar - Khajiit Stamina DK | Ashmedi - Dunmer Magicka DK
Vanya Darchow - AD Altmer Magicka Sorc | Malek gro'Kash - Orc Stam Sorc
GM of "Handelshaus von Riften" - Trading & PvX Community3 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ZoS should ban this add-on. It gives out info you should never know.
Wrong. They should ensure that the functionality of the lua api that allows this addon, is blocked.4 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So it does exactly what everyone thought it would, ruin an entire litany of abilities that the game is partially balanced around.
Why can't you (addon writers) just make your own game to ruin?5 -
Vythri✭✭✭✭Oh boy, another reason for me to quit PvP'ing. I like using a Bow, and ZOS has forced me into a ganker role because of it. Now what's the damn point of PvP'ing at all?6 -
Publius_Scipio✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Well, there was a reason PAUL SAGE was very wary of having the APIs available to players....
Who knows what addons people have cooked up and kept under wraps....
Personally, I've always thought it was cheesy when players had these addons that in bold text would tell them "cleanse now". They can't pay attention like those without addons?0 -
Greifenherz✭✭✭Publius_Scipio wrote: »Well, there was a reason PAUL SAGE was very wary of having the APIs available to players....
Maybe cut down with the Paul Sage talk a bit, the first three posts in other threads about this addon were insightful enough.
@Topic:
Great analysis, thanks for putting time and effort into dissecting the addon. I feel like if news about this addon spreads like a bushfire it might effectively nuke PvP. Well, the stealth aspect of it. One could contemplate if keeping it secret would have been the better route long-term...1 -
kuro-dono✭✭✭✭god i would sell my house and give the money to zenimax if they would remove completely all addons.
+ make it so that you cant run single program that could steal information from eso screen to transform it to second screen into readable dataEdited by kuro-dono on 19 December 2016 11:051 -
InvitationNotFound✭✭✭✭✭
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Well, sounds like cheating.There are some private scripts and add-ons, that are highly intrusive in nature. For e.g. a certain modder created a memory hook that allows add-ons to use Protected LUA API including actual activation of skills, dodges, etc (check Hook64 premium).
Haven't thought about it yet. Had to google a bit for afformentioned application and read the forums.
What i got so far is, that you can buy the premium version of that application, which allows using the restricted API.
Well, there's a reason why this API is restricted. It isn't meant to be used by addons. I don't like to hear that people (if they pay) could get an advantage by using addons which are abusing the restricted API. >_<We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome... - The Wrobler
You know you don't have to be here right? - Rich Lambert
Verrätst du mir deinen Beruf? Ich würde auch gerne mal Annahmen dazu schreiben, wie simple die Aufgaben anderer sind. - Kai Schober
Addons:
RdK Group Tool: esoui DE EN FR
Port to Friend's House: esoui DE EN FR - Library: DE EN
Yet another Compass: esoui DE EN FR
Group Buffs: esoui DE EN FR1 -
silky_soft✭✭✭✭✭
✭Basically what we already know. That ZOS code isn't secure and [insert country name here] can give out handys to get their account back even after using the most intrusive of cheats.
Everyone has to run an independent separate anti cheat client. Which bans your hardware on an industry wide scale.Here $15, goat mount please. Not paying 45 : lol :
Netch is free with a cleanse and free magika. You nerf siphon into the ground. Nice balance team.
How do you go home every night and say, I did a great job at work today. You actually do your job properly.
Step 1: roll templar. Step 2: level up jabs. Step 3: slap on weapon damage build. Step 4: que for bg. Step 5: leap...jabsjabsjabsjabs0 -
Bumblebeelzebub✭✭✭
...even if you cloak and regain stealth, you will be detected in the stealth alert...
... even if you get a perfect gank without alerting anybody, the add-on immediately sends an alert to everybody nearby about it making it much harder to get away and almost impossible against organized groups...
... Most of the attack detections have been primarily designed against gankers. It pretty much nullifies the playstyle of melee bow builds (bow heavy attack canceled by Ambush/Suprise Attack is staple for such builds). Destro heavy attack, Assassin's Will are primary attacks of the magblade gankers. 2H/DW heavies and ambush are staple for the usual stamblade gankers. Bow heavy, Lethal Arrow are staple for DK and NB snipers...
... Prior information of certain players in a range will allow you to change your gear/skills to counter their build...
So in a nutshell this add-on allows you to subvert all of the counterplay required to fend off a stealth attack?
Stealth is an intended part of this game. Using add-ons to do the work of countering a legitimate and intended playstyle is straight up cheating. I don't know how anyone could interpret this differently.Edited by Bumblebeelzebub on 19 December 2016 12:416 -
Knootewoot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Well i don't think Miat should be held accountable for this.
Yes, i really do dislike addons which give to much information just as i dislike the proc sets
But @Zos is the one responsible for giving access to this information and is therefore also accountable.
Now i hope they fix this sjit.٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶
"I am a nightblade. Blending the disciplines of the stealthy agent and subtle wizard, I move unseen and undetected, foil locks and traps, and teleport to safety when threatened, or strike like a viper from ambush. The College of Illusion hides me and fuddles or pacifies my opponents. The College of Mysticism detects my object, reflects and dispels enemy spells, and makes good my escape. The key to a nightblade's success is avoidance, by spell or by stealth; with these skills, all things are possible."1 -
Bumblebeelzebub✭✭✭Knootewoot wrote: »Well i don't think Miat should be held accountable for this.
Yes, i really do dislike addons which give to much information just as i dislike the proc sets
But @Zos is the one responsible for giving access to this information and is therefore also accountable.
Now i hope they fix this sjit.
Why shouldn't he?
ZOS gave him access to information. He decided to use that information to cheat. ZOS didn't force him to build an anti-stealth cheating system.1 -
bitels✭✭✭✭
He just bring into the light, what could be already used in private for quite some time.Bumblebeelzebub wrote: »Knootewoot wrote: »Well i don't think Miat should be held accountable for this.
Yes, i really do dislike addons which give to much information just as i dislike the proc sets
But @Zos is the one responsible for giving access to this information and is therefore also accountable.
Now i hope they fix this sjit.
Why shouldn't he?
ZOS gave him access to information. He decided to use that information to cheat. ZOS didn't force him to build an anti-stealth cheating system.
Im not defending this addon, but thanks to the publicity it gets now ZoS will look into the problem, and fix it.2 -
Bumblebeelzebub✭✭✭He just bring into the light, what could be already used in private for quite some time.
Im not defending this addon, but thanks to the publicity it gets now ZoS will look into the problem, and fix it.
He didn't just bring a vulnerability to light. He built an add-on that exploits that vulnerability, and invalidates the stealth playstyle. He's hardly a whistleblower. Although I agree that it's a good thing that ZOS is now paying attention to this.
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IronCrystal✭✭✭✭✭
✭Miat is not responsible for the addon. No developer is penalized for creating addons using a game's API. The whole purpose of supplying an API is the game company telling developers "here is all the info we are giving you. Now go make something great!" If there is info that an addon developer shouldn't have access to, then ZOS needs to simply stop supplying the info to the addon.
Stop blaming Miat!Make PC NA raiding great again!
Down with drama!
What Mechanics Healer - Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
Homestead Raid Scores
vHRC 157,030
vAA 138,287
vSO 153,393
vMoL 154,550
Not raiding in Morrowind4 -
Bumblebeelzebub✭✭✭EnviousStruggle wrote: »because people like bumbleblahblah eso community are so bad
lol wut?1 -
Bumblebeelzebub✭✭✭IronCrystal wrote: »Miat is not responsible for the addon. No developer is penalized for creating addons using a game's API. The whole purpose of supplying an API is the game company telling developers "here is all the info we are giving you. Now go make something great!" If there is info that an addon developer shouldn't have access to, then ZOS needs to simply stop supplying the info to the addon.
Stop blaming Miat!
It's not about blame, it's about accountability. He built the mod and he's responsible for it.2 -
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sometimes, I'm really glad I play on Xbox. Even if PC does look smoother, with less problems, etc. At least there are no add-ons that give certain advantages that should never exist in the first place. Remaining Ward time of an enemy or the "cleanse now" thing come to mind.@ Izaki #PCEU
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade1 -
Publius_Scipio✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The addon is definitely sneaky, cheesy, inspired by a nefarious idea, and not approved by Paul Sage. But they were made available by ZOS so Miat shouldn't face punishment. ZOS should immediately review API access and what's possible there, making appropriate changes.
Miat is a khajiit irl. And we are all left wondering if anyone cooked up something as or even more nefarious using the APIs and it never came to light.
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ZOS_RagnaradminWe have closed this thread. There is already a discussion about Miat's pvp alerts, on this thread. Feel free to continue the discussion there.The Elder Scrolls Online - ZeniMax Online Studios
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