"cramming4+ skills into a one second" is a very imprecise description and completely ignores the amount of gcd consumed by Sorc. These skills take effect at the same time, but it does not mean that they are cast at the same time within one second.
In order for these skills to take effect at the same time, Sorc must accurately calculate the time of skill casting in "seconds" and must maintain stable and smooth PING.
Ignoring these prerequisites and costs would be unobjective or malicious.
And even though Sorc consumes so much GCD, the damage it ultimately causes is only equal to or lower than other classes.

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

"cramming4+ skills into a one second" is a very imprecise description and completely ignores the amount of gcd consumed by Sorc. These skills take effect at the same time, but it does not mean that they are cast at the same time within one second.
In order for these skills to take effect at the same time, Sorc must accurately calculate the time of skill casting in "seconds" and must maintain stable and smooth PING.
Ignoring these prerequisites and costs would be unobjective or malicious.
And even though Sorc consumes so much GCD, the damage it ultimately causes is only equal to or lower than other classes.

If this were a hard hitting easily achieved combo at range I'd want to put it right up there with corrosive dk 1 shoting with a flame staff but if anything this sounds like something that someone just keeps doing because they enjoy it and find it to be a good combo but here's the thing, we can't compare that kind of event to the easier more powerful NB with incap and bow.

What I'm saying is we're talking about something a lot of people use at the moment to good or great affect. This combo does not meet that criteria as evidenced by how uncommon it is other than one person bringing it up.

I've used the overload ganking build before. Realistically, you could only 1 shot people less than 30k HP with low armor.

That was before though. The combo is harder to pull off now though since you can't precast Cwep in stealth anymore. You also don't have the same stats that a NB has. Keep in mind, NB can stack a crazy amount of crit damage and crit chance because it has 3k pen from flanking and an unnamed 10% crit damage.

So I put my best stat hybrid sorc build on a NB and the result is well.. unsurprising. I think it's still worth it to put it up here so people who are unaware can look at the current situation.

Link to Sorc build:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=590518

Link to NB build:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=590929

I disabled CP, included all possible buffs and debuffs (applied to targets), and kept all sets the same for both classes. The only thing I changed was attribute points. Here are the stats for both classes fully buffed without continuous:

Sorc:



The 1000 pen from Cwep isn't added to the pen stat, so I have to manually add it:




NB:




The 300 WD from Assassin's Will isn't added to the WD stat, so I have to manually add it:





So basically, these are the things that NB has over Sorc:

- 555 more WD
- 8% more crit chance
- 12% more crit damage
- 10% dmg done at all times compared to Amplitude (which is only 10% at 100% HP and diminishes when your target's HP gets lower)
- 20% unnamed vulnerability
- Major Evasion
- 4s snare cleanse and immunity
- Free dodge roll every few seconds
- Minor Cowardice, making the NB tankier
- Invisibility
- Forced 100% crit chance
- Major Endurance for not needing to use crit potions
- Minor Mending
- Access to an execute because its burst has equivalent dmg to 2 of Sorc's burst abilities (Cwep + Bound Armaments)
- AoE spammable to wipe groups if using Soul Tether or Dawnbreaker

I won't be biased though. These are the things Sorc has over NB:

- Unmatched offensive healing (with this particular build of course)
- Shield to prevent dying from a burst combo
- Several soft counters to stealthy players ( Curse, Streak, and Bound Armaments)
- Better AoE DoTs
- Offensive combo is less likely to be fully mitigated by block/roll dodge (Curse can only be cleansed)
- Better ability to create distance with Streak (if you have a high magicka pool and your opponent isn't speed capped with a gap closer)
- Can block better due to having several sustain passives from blocking and Dark Deal

That's just about everything Sorc has over NB. Sorc can't match NB in terms of stat density, bar space efficiency, or tankiness. I won't even mention Sorc having an AoE stun as an advantage because NB does have Mass Hysteria, which not only is an unblockable/undodgable AoE stun, but also applies Major Cowardice to affected targets. You can basically reduce your opponents' weapon/spell damage by a total of 645, making you even tankier.

Seriously, NB is just 3x better while in the same build. I don't even know why I'm playing Sorc when I can hop on NB, slot Mist Form, and be a pseudo Sorc with better burst, better healing and tankiness, and overall just a better class.

StaticWave wrote: »

So I put my best stat hybrid sorc build on a NB and the result is well.. unsurprising. I think it's still worth it to put it up here so people who are unaware can look at the current situation.

Link to Sorc build:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=590518

Link to NB build:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=590929

I disabled CP, included all possible buffs and debuffs (applied to targets), and kept all sets the same for both classes. The only thing I changed was attribute points. Here are the stats for both classes fully buffed without continuous:

Sorc:



The 1000 pen from Cwep isn't added to the pen stat, so I have to manually add it:




NB:




The 300 WD from Assassin's Will isn't added to the WD stat, so I have to manually add it:





So basically, these are the things that NB has over Sorc:

- 555 more WD
- 8% more crit chance
- 8% more crit damage
- 10% dmg done at all times compared to Amplitude (which is only 10% at 100% HP and diminishes when your target's HP gets lower)
- 20% unnamed vulnerability
- Major Evasion
- 4s snare cleanse and immunity
- Free dodge roll every few seconds
- Minor Cowardice, making the NB tankier
- Invisibility
- Forced 100% crit chance
- Major Endurance for not needing to use crit potions
- Minor Mending
- Access to an execute because its burst has equivalent dmg to 2 of Sorc's burst abilities (Cwep + Bound Armaments)
- AoE spammable to wipe groups if using Soul Tether or Dawnbreaker

I won't be biased though. These are the things Sorc has over NB:

- Unmatched offensive healing (with this particular build of course)
- Shield to prevent dying from a burst combo
- Several soft counters to stealthy players ( Curse, Streak, and Bound Armaments)
- Better AoE DoTs
- Offensive combo is less likely to be fully mitigated by block/roll dodge (Curse can only be cleansed)
- Better ability to create distance with Streak (if you have a high magicka pool and your opponent isn't speed capped with a gap closer)
- Can block better due to having several sustain passives from blocking and Dark Deal

That's just about everything Sorc has over NB. Sorc can't match NB in terms of stat density, bar space efficiency, or tankiness. I won't even mention Sorc having an AoE stun as an advantage because NB does have Mass Hysteria, which not only is an unblockable/undodgable AoE stun, but also applies Major Cowardice to affected targets. You can basically reduce your opponents' weapon/spell damage by a total of 645, making you even tankier.

Seriously, NB is just 3x better while in the same build. I don't even know why I'm playing Sorc when I can hop on NB, slot Mist Form, and be a pseudo Sorc with better burst, better healing and tankiness, and overall just a better class.

Basically, you can put whatever you use on Sorc on NB and NB will have better time. This has been what I've been thinking for a while now and glad to see the confirmation from others.

Antrox41 wrote: »

If i were to nerf NB here are what I would do.

Cloak
-Remove the crit bonus and introduce ramping cost to the stealth morph. Or could also introduce a mechanic if you are taken out of stealth abruptly in between the 3 seconds you cannot re-enter for at least another 1 second. (Point is you should not be able to spam this and dodge everything thrown at you while at the same time resetting a fight completely)

Merciless
-Remove the burst heal and reduce the damage done by at least 20-40% for both morphs or less (This ability should not be doing more damage then incap or other ultimate's as a base ability.)

Incap
-Increase the ultimate cost to at least 100-125 and have the stun proc at 150 ultimate. Reduce the increased damage taken to 15%.

Tether
-Increase the cost of both morphs to 170. This an AOE burst damage/heal ultimate that both does damage and heals you for a pretty insane amount and should be in line with others of the sort like meteor which doesn't heal you.

If you were nerfing NB, i'd go play my overpowered DK in pvp.

Zabulus wrote: »

GooGa592 wrote: »

NB's are way over the top OP in PvP right now. It's a gankfest. And with so much burst damage and so much burst heals all with a stun, they don't even need cloak anymore. It's an S tier class even without cloak now. This really needs to change. The number of NB players in cyrodiil has almost doubled in the last few weeks, that's how bad it is.

Then try to play NB against this tank meta, and come back to tell us how you feel.

Playing NB is too much like cheating in a PvP situation, so I won't play one. I prefer fair fights. NB's tend to attract players that aren't looking for fair fights. That's not me.

Zabulus wrote: »

buahaha
bragging NB is op but not knowing anything about it since you would never play one ...
hmm ok.

Yep, NB's in PvP do attract a certain personality type.

I play against them every day, and am better at killing them and defending against their attacks than most. But I build for it specifically.

Zabulus wrote: »

buahaha
bragging NB is op but not knowing anything about it since you would never play one ...
hmm ok.

The implication seemed to be that the person played it, saw how op it was and became disinterested.

I'm only chiming in because I can relate. Some of us just don't prefer to have to much of an advantage because then you don't enjoy the kills as much.

Currently as a sorc I can indeed blow some people out of the water but I appreciate that if I mess up it's very punishing which means that if I do well I actually played well.

With NB there's a lot more chances to recover from a bad play or almost bully other players in a variety of ways. Better players can stand up to you for sure but it's easy to 1vx a few potatoes without even thinking about it that much. Not saying any of that is right or wrong, just that it's not everyone's idea of fun.

StaticWave wrote: »

So I put my best stat hybrid sorc build on a NB and the result is well.. unsurprising. I think it's still worth it to put it up here so people who are unaware can look at the current situation.

Link to Sorc build:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=590518

Link to NB build:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=590929

I disabled CP, included all possible buffs and debuffs (applied to targets), and kept all sets the same for both classes. The only thing I changed was attribute points. Here are the stats for both classes fully buffed without continuous:

Sorc:



The 1000 pen from Cwep isn't added to the pen stat, so I have to manually add it:




NB:




The 300 WD from Assassin's Will isn't added to the WD stat, so I have to manually add it:





So basically, these are the things that NB has over Sorc:

- 555 more WD
- 8% more crit chance
- 12% more crit damage
- 10% dmg done at all times compared to Amplitude (which is only 10% at 100% HP and diminishes when your target's HP gets lower)
- 20% unnamed vulnerability
- Major Evasion
- 4s snare cleanse and immunity
- Free dodge roll every few seconds
- Minor Cowardice, making the NB tankier
- Invisibility
- Forced 100% crit chance
- Major Endurance for not needing to use crit potions
- Minor Mending
- Access to an execute because its burst has equivalent dmg to 2 of Sorc's burst abilities (Cwep + Bound Armaments)
- AoE spammable to wipe groups if using Soul Tether or Dawnbreaker

I won't be biased though. These are the things Sorc has over NB:

- Unmatched offensive healing (with this particular build of course)
- Shield to prevent dying from a burst combo
- Several soft counters to stealthy players ( Curse, Streak, and Bound Armaments)
- Better AoE DoTs
- Offensive combo is less likely to be fully mitigated by block/roll dodge (Curse can only be cleansed)
- Better ability to create distance with Streak (if you have a high magicka pool and your opponent isn't speed capped with a gap closer)
- Can block better due to having several sustain passives from blocking and Dark Deal

That's just about everything Sorc has over NB. Sorc can't match NB in terms of stat density, bar space efficiency, or tankiness. I won't even mention Sorc having an AoE stun as an advantage because NB does have Mass Hysteria, which not only is an unblockable/undodgable AoE stun, but also applies Major Cowardice to affected targets. You can basically reduce your opponents' weapon/spell damage by a total of 645, making you even tankier.

Seriously, NB is just 3x better while in the same build. I don't even know why I'm playing Sorc when I can hop on NB, slot Mist Form, and be a pseudo Sorc with better burst, better healing and tankiness, and overall just a better class.

Your dissertation is focused on specific skill choices and ignores that there are trade offs involved in using those specific skills.

6 of your points are assuming that the nb uses power extraction and phantasmal escape specifically. Does every good nightblade build use those 2 skills? Those compete with Race against time (or shuffle, or elusive mist) and Rally which are both universally available and very very good. If you don't use rally/momentum you do have to use pots to get major sorc/brut before combat just like sorcs need to use crit pots if they don't slot a guild detect skill.

Then the 10% damage point is concealed weapon. That skill is stacked right now and probably going to get nerfed soon, but as a skill that you actually use to do damage it's kind of lacking and it doesn't feel good to sustain on a DW build. I know this, I switch back to Surprise attack every time I check out what's so great about CW. If theres one nerf that would put NB where it should be though, it would be revert the minor expedition on CW back to the 10% movespeed while stealthed and lower major berserk to minor berserk to further reinforce the redundancy of camo hunter.

DrNukenstein wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

So I put my best stat hybrid sorc build on a NB and the result is well.. unsurprising. I think it's still worth it to put it up here so people who are unaware can look at the current situation.

Link to Sorc build:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=590518

Link to NB build:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=590929

I disabled CP, included all possible buffs and debuffs (applied to targets), and kept all sets the same for both classes. The only thing I changed was attribute points. Here are the stats for both classes fully buffed without continuous:

Sorc:



The 1000 pen from Cwep isn't added to the pen stat, so I have to manually add it:




NB:




The 300 WD from Assassin's Will isn't added to the WD stat, so I have to manually add it:





So basically, these are the things that NB has over Sorc:

- 555 more WD
- 8% more crit chance
- 12% more crit damage
- 10% dmg done at all times compared to Amplitude (which is only 10% at 100% HP and diminishes when your target's HP gets lower)
- 20% unnamed vulnerability
- Major Evasion
- 4s snare cleanse and immunity
- Free dodge roll every few seconds
- Minor Cowardice, making the NB tankier
- Invisibility
- Forced 100% crit chance
- Major Endurance for not needing to use crit potions
- Minor Mending
- Access to an execute because its burst has equivalent dmg to 2 of Sorc's burst abilities (Cwep + Bound Armaments)
- AoE spammable to wipe groups if using Soul Tether or Dawnbreaker

I won't be biased though. These are the things Sorc has over NB:

- Unmatched offensive healing (with this particular build of course)
- Shield to prevent dying from a burst combo
- Several soft counters to stealthy players ( Curse, Streak, and Bound Armaments)
- Better AoE DoTs
- Offensive combo is less likely to be fully mitigated by block/roll dodge (Curse can only be cleansed)
- Better ability to create distance with Streak (if you have a high magicka pool and your opponent isn't speed capped with a gap closer)
- Can block better due to having several sustain passives from blocking and Dark Deal

That's just about everything Sorc has over NB. Sorc can't match NB in terms of stat density, bar space efficiency, or tankiness. I won't even mention Sorc having an AoE stun as an advantage because NB does have Mass Hysteria, which not only is an unblockable/undodgable AoE stun, but also applies Major Cowardice to affected targets. You can basically reduce your opponents' weapon/spell damage by a total of 645, making you even tankier.

Seriously, NB is just 3x better while in the same build. I don't even know why I'm playing Sorc when I can hop on NB, slot Mist Form, and be a pseudo Sorc with better burst, better healing and tankiness, and overall just a better class.

Your dissertation is focused on specific skill choices and ignores that there are trade offs involved in using those specific skills.

6 of your points are assuming that the nb uses power extraction and phantasmal escape specifically. Does every good nightblade build use those 2 skills? Those compete with Race against time (or shuffle, or elusive mist) and Rally which are both universally available and very very good. If you don't use rally/momentum you do have to use pots to get major sorc/brut before combat just like sorcs need to use crit pots if they don't slot a guild detect skill.

Then the 10% damage point is concealed weapon. That skill is stacked right now and probably going to get nerfed soon, but as a skill that you actually use to do damage it's kind of lacking and it doesn't feel good to sustain on a DW build. I know this, I switch back to Surprise attack every time I check out what's so great about CW. If theres one nerf that would put NB where it should be though, it would be revert the minor expedition on CW back to the 10% movespeed while stealthed and lower major berserk to minor berserk to further reinforce the redundancy of camo hunter.

Not every NB build include those 2 skills, but most NB builds do, so I'm using the majority for the argument. I don't really care about the niche NB builds that don't have them because they aren't a problem.

Same reason why I have a problem with brawlerblades but not gankblades or rollerblades that still use Rally. Both of the latter are a lot easier to kill and feel much fairer of a fight than the former.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabulus wrote: »

buahaha
bragging NB is op but not knowing anything about it since you would never play one ...
hmm ok.

Back in 2018 or so, I mained NB for 6 months before switching to Sorc. When NB received the unnamed 10% dmg done buff on Concealed Weapon a year ago, I got curious and decided to dust it off for some Cyrodiil PvP. From 2018 to 2022, that's 4 years of not playing the class. I made a lot of mistakes that a seasoned NB wouldn't because I haven't played it for so long, but I managed to complete a 1v5 without any sweat. Video included below:

https://youtu.be/3ZCuRe6oLHU

You know what I did afterwards? I put that class back in the storage because if I can hop on a class and 1vX after not playing it for 4 years, then there is ZERO enjoyment for me and quite frankly, that class needs to be adjusted lol.

This was my experience playing NB early last year as well after a similar duration of not playing it... No video because I don't record, but still how I felt playing the class after it got its buffs.

I didn't win the 1vX because I was going up against 4 good (known) players that were all stronger than me (2 of them were/are significantly better players than I am/was), but the fact that it took 4 players of that caliber, running the BiS procsorc build (after sorc got its "buffs" in U37) to take me down when I was solo, on a character that was just recently created (barely enough skill points to have the essentials), with a huge ping/delay advantage over me and I had 1 of them (1 of the better 2 of the 4) at 5-10% health and running for cover and they only took me down because I greeded for that kill, says everything about the state of NB and just how overpowered the class is, and tbh, just how broken cloak (invis) as a mechanic can be, especially when the strength of the class kit around it is really strong, even going up against multiple soft counters.

I benched that character shortly after that (well, after I had a ball group give up chasing me later that same session), because while it was fun to experience being that strong, it really did not feel like it was my skills that enabled me to do that. Playing the class felt like I was playing with ZOS approved cheats enabled, and while fun to experience it, it was not engaging or rewarding content that I could enjoy in the long term or that would help me grow as a player.

Yea, part of the fun in this game for me is having a challenging fight and finding out ways to somewhat fix my class' weakness with theorycrafting. On a NB, you don't really have a challenge unless you're fighting a super aids DoT build. Even then, you can make a build that counters DoTs effectively and still retain very strong killing power.

Theorycrafting wise, you don't need to think too much on NB. The class just has so many damage passives that you can literally put on random blue gear and still have a respectable amount of damage. I don't feel like proving this point on the forums but anyone can hop on UESP Editor and see for themselves.

If Sorc was given the same amount of buffs as NB, then I would grow bored of it too even though I main it. There's just no fun for me personally to kill people in 2 seconds and clearly be at an advantage because ZOS buffed the heck out of my class lol.

StaticWave wrote: »

You can't possibly defend this class at this point imo if a build with random gear pieces in blue quality can still match a proper golded out build.

You have shown for the 11th time that the same sources for additional WD add WD. This has changed my life.

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You can't possibly defend this class at this point imo if a build with random gear pieces in blue quality can still match a proper golded out build.

You have shown for the 11th time that the same sources for additional WD add WD. This has changed my life.

I’ll continue to show them. You can ignore my post lol.