eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »So the Stamina Sorc has Thundering Presence now as a stamina morph. I still have zero Sorc abilities that I have to use regularly. Thundering Presence has a 20s duration and is a fire and forget deal AND not to mention stamina Sorc were already using Boundless Storm for the speed buff and PVP stam sorcs may still use Boundless over Thundering for the speed buff.
Come on ZOS, change Crystal Blast to some kind of stamina morph where we actually have to use our Sorc abilities more than every 20-30 seconds.
I'm happy with the changes. I didn't use thundering presence anyway.
eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »So the Stamina Sorc has Thundering Presence now as a stamina morph. I still have zero Sorc abilities that I have to use regularly. Thundering Presence has a 20s duration and is a fire and forget deal AND not to mention stamina Sorc were already using Boundless Storm for the speed buff and PVP stam sorcs may still use Boundless over Thundering for the speed buff.
Come on ZOS, change Crystal Blast to some kind of stamina morph where we actually have to use our Sorc abilities more than every 20-30 seconds.
I'm happy with the changes. I didn't use thundering presence anyway.
Nobody is going to use thundering presence in its current form. Just tested the damage and its completely irrelevant. No stam sorc will use it for damage because its about half of what caltrops does.
So yea thundering presence doesnt even have the speed boost that youd naturally want on a stamina played that cant use blink nearly as much as a magicka sorc.
Theyve really taken the weakest class setup and beat it down in this patch.
This is absolutely awful.
And it doesnt even do that much damage. 510 a second for me with a template character, which just barely makes it worth using from a DPS point of view over just another Wrecking Blow.
I was being glib. I don 't play as a stamina sorc because I read the description when I made the class and nothing indicated to me that it should be played as a stamina build....eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »So the Stamina Sorc has Thundering Presence now as a stamina morph. I still have zero Sorc abilities that I have to use regularly. Thundering Presence has a 20s duration and is a fire and forget deal AND not to mention stamina Sorc were already using Boundless Storm for the speed buff and PVP stam sorcs may still use Boundless over Thundering for the speed buff.
Come on ZOS, change Crystal Blast to some kind of stamina morph where we actually have to use our Sorc abilities more than every 20-30 seconds.
I'm happy with the changes. I didn't use thundering presence anyway.
Nobody is going to use thundering presence in its current form. Just tested the damage and its completely irrelevant. No stam sorc will use it for damage because its about half of what caltrops does.
So yea thundering presence doesnt even have the speed boost that youd naturally want on a stamina played that cant use blink nearly as much as a magicka sorc.
Theyve really taken the weakest class setup and beat it down in this patch.
This is absolutely awful.
And it doesnt even do that much damage. 510 a second for me with a template character, which just barely makes it worth using from a DPS point of view over just another Wrecking Blow.
Yep - just tested with a flat no buff on my build.
Caltrops doing 1.2k, thundering doing 700
Other morph
Caltrops doing 1.2k, boundless doing 350
This is with no food or anything so my magicka is completely unbuffed. My equipment is full dps here though, which is more than Id normally run on a stam sorc.
So you can do a couple hundred extra damage on the occasions you just happen to be adjacent to someone youre fighting, or you can have major expedition.
Will try to say it as nicely as possible but this is an absolute joke/slap in the face. Nobody is even trying with stam sorc @ZOS.
Tune in to for the next month to enjoy how fun a stam sorc can be to play. Its all going away pretty soon it looks like.
eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »So yea thundering presence doesnt even have the speed boost that youd naturally want on a stamina played that cant use blink nearly as much as a magicka sorc.
Theyve really taken the weakest class setup and beat it down in this patch.
This is absolutely awful.
And it doesnt even do that much damage. 510 a second for me with a template character, which just barely makes it worth using from a DPS point of view over just another Wrecking Blow.
Yep - just tested with a flat no buff on my build.
Caltrops doing 1.2k, thundering doing 700
Other morph
Caltrops doing 1.2k, boundless doing 350
This is with no food or anything so my magicka is completely unbuffed. My equipment is full dps here though, which is more than Id normally run on a stam sorc.
So you can do a couple hundred extra damage on the occasions you just happen to be adjacent to someone youre fighting, or you can have major expedition.
Will try to say it as nicely as possible but this is an absolute joke/slap in the face. Nobody is even trying with stam sorc @ZOS.
Tune in to for the next month to enjoy how fun a stam sorc can be to play. Its all going away pretty soon it looks like.
There are three other classes that stamina builds work great for. Leave the sorc alone.
eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »So yea thundering presence doesnt even have the speed boost that youd naturally want on a stamina played that cant use blink nearly as much as a magicka sorc.
Theyve really taken the weakest class setup and beat it down in this patch.
This is absolutely awful.
And it doesnt even do that much damage. 510 a second for me with a template character, which just barely makes it worth using from a DPS point of view over just another Wrecking Blow.
Yep - just tested with a flat no buff on my build.
Caltrops doing 1.2k, thundering doing 700
Other morph
Caltrops doing 1.2k, boundless doing 350
This is with no food or anything so my magicka is completely unbuffed. My equipment is full dps here though, which is more than Id normally run on a stam sorc.
So you can do a couple hundred extra damage on the occasions you just happen to be adjacent to someone youre fighting, or you can have major expedition.
Will try to say it as nicely as possible but this is an absolute joke/slap in the face. Nobody is even trying with stam sorc @ZOS.
Tune in to for the next month to enjoy how fun a stam sorc can be to play. Its all going away pretty soon it looks like.
There are three other classes that stamina builds work great for. Leave the sorc alone.
eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »So yea thundering presence doesnt even have the speed boost that youd naturally want on a stamina played that cant use blink nearly as much as a magicka sorc.
Theyve really taken the weakest class setup and beat it down in this patch.
This is absolutely awful.
And it doesnt even do that much damage. 510 a second for me with a template character, which just barely makes it worth using from a DPS point of view over just another Wrecking Blow.
Yep - just tested with a flat no buff on my build.
Caltrops doing 1.2k, thundering doing 700
Other morph
Caltrops doing 1.2k, boundless doing 350
This is with no food or anything so my magicka is completely unbuffed. My equipment is full dps here though, which is more than Id normally run on a stam sorc.
So you can do a couple hundred extra damage on the occasions you just happen to be adjacent to someone youre fighting, or you can have major expedition.
Will try to say it as nicely as possible but this is an absolute joke/slap in the face. Nobody is even trying with stam sorc @ZOS.
Tune in to for the next month to enjoy how fun a stam sorc can be to play. Its all going away pretty soon it looks like.
There are three other classes that stamina builds work great for. Leave the sorc alone.
Stam sorc actually works fine in its current state. Most cant make it work because it is not easy to play.
This patch is just tearing it to pieces and the only 'buffs' put in place are actually worse options than sticking to the magicka counterparts.
I'm sick of people making a sorcerer and then complaining that it's only good with magic. Yet I'm the one accused of trolling. Too funny.kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »So yea thundering presence doesnt even have the speed boost that youd naturally want on a stamina played that cant use blink nearly as much as a magicka sorc.
Theyve really taken the weakest class setup and beat it down in this patch.
This is absolutely awful.
And it doesnt even do that much damage. 510 a second for me with a template character, which just barely makes it worth using from a DPS point of view over just another Wrecking Blow.
Yep - just tested with a flat no buff on my build.
Caltrops doing 1.2k, thundering doing 700
Other morph
Caltrops doing 1.2k, boundless doing 350
This is with no food or anything so my magicka is completely unbuffed. My equipment is full dps here though, which is more than Id normally run on a stam sorc.
So you can do a couple hundred extra damage on the occasions you just happen to be adjacent to someone youre fighting, or you can have major expedition.
Will try to say it as nicely as possible but this is an absolute joke/slap in the face. Nobody is even trying with stam sorc @ZOS.
Tune in to for the next month to enjoy how fun a stam sorc can be to play. Its all going away pretty soon it looks like.
There are three other classes that stamina builds work great for. Leave the sorc alone.
Stam sorc actually works fine in its current state. Most cant make it work because it is not easy to play.
This patch is just tearing it to pieces and the only 'buffs' put in place are actually worse options than sticking to the magicka counterparts.
Wow Fengrush. I really respect you for managing to answer to such posts with such composure. I am sure if I tried to answer his two previous posts I would get a forum infraction for the simple fact that these posts are not trolling which makes it even worse......
So yea thundering presence doesnt even have the speed boost that youd naturally want on a stamina played that cant use blink nearly as much as a magicka sorc.
Theyve really taken the weakest class setup and beat it down in this patch.
This is absolutely awful.
And it doesnt even do that much damage. 510 a second for me with a template character, which just barely makes it worth using from a DPS point of view over just another Wrecking Blow.
Yep - just tested with a flat no buff on my build.
Caltrops doing 1.2k, thundering doing 700
Other morph
Caltrops doing 1.2k, boundless doing 350
This is with no food or anything so my magicka is completely unbuffed. My equipment is full dps here though, which is more than Id normally run on a stam sorc.
So you can do a couple hundred extra damage on the occasions you just happen to be adjacent to someone youre fighting, or you can have major expedition.
Will try to say it as nicely as possible but this is an absolute joke/slap in the face. Nobody is even trying with stam sorc @ZOS.
Tune in to for the next month to enjoy how fun a stam sorc can be to play. Its all going away pretty soon it looks like.
eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »I'm sick of people making a sorcerer and then complaining that it's only good with magic. Yet I'm the one accused of trolling. Too funny.kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »So yea thundering presence doesnt even have the speed boost that youd naturally want on a stamina played that cant use blink nearly as much as a magicka sorc.
Theyve really taken the weakest class setup and beat it down in this patch.
This is absolutely awful.
And it doesnt even do that much damage. 510 a second for me with a template character, which just barely makes it worth using from a DPS point of view over just another Wrecking Blow.
Yep - just tested with a flat no buff on my build.
Caltrops doing 1.2k, thundering doing 700
Other morph
Caltrops doing 1.2k, boundless doing 350
This is with no food or anything so my magicka is completely unbuffed. My equipment is full dps here though, which is more than Id normally run on a stam sorc.
So you can do a couple hundred extra damage on the occasions you just happen to be adjacent to someone youre fighting, or you can have major expedition.
Will try to say it as nicely as possible but this is an absolute joke/slap in the face. Nobody is even trying with stam sorc @ZOS.
Tune in to for the next month to enjoy how fun a stam sorc can be to play. Its all going away pretty soon it looks like.
There are three other classes that stamina builds work great for. Leave the sorc alone.
Stam sorc actually works fine in its current state. Most cant make it work because it is not easy to play.
This patch is just tearing it to pieces and the only 'buffs' put in place are actually worse options than sticking to the magicka counterparts.
Wow Fengrush. I really respect you for managing to answer to such posts with such composure. I am sure if I tried to answer his two previous posts I would get a forum infraction for the simple fact that these posts are not trolling which makes it even worse......
eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »I'm sick of people making a sorcerer and then complaining that it's only good with magic. Yet I'm the one accused of trolling. Too funny.kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »So yea thundering presence doesnt even have the speed boost that youd naturally want on a stamina played that cant use blink nearly as much as a magicka sorc.
Theyve really taken the weakest class setup and beat it down in this patch.
This is absolutely awful.
And it doesnt even do that much damage. 510 a second for me with a template character, which just barely makes it worth using from a DPS point of view over just another Wrecking Blow.
Yep - just tested with a flat no buff on my build.
Caltrops doing 1.2k, thundering doing 700
Other morph
Caltrops doing 1.2k, boundless doing 350
This is with no food or anything so my magicka is completely unbuffed. My equipment is full dps here though, which is more than Id normally run on a stam sorc.
So you can do a couple hundred extra damage on the occasions you just happen to be adjacent to someone youre fighting, or you can have major expedition.
Will try to say it as nicely as possible but this is an absolute joke/slap in the face. Nobody is even trying with stam sorc @ZOS.
Tune in to for the next month to enjoy how fun a stam sorc can be to play. Its all going away pretty soon it looks like.
There are three other classes that stamina builds work great for. Leave the sorc alone.
Stam sorc actually works fine in its current state. Most cant make it work because it is not easy to play.
This patch is just tearing it to pieces and the only 'buffs' put in place are actually worse options than sticking to the magicka counterparts.
Wow Fengrush. I really respect you for managing to answer to such posts with such composure. I am sure if I tried to answer his two previous posts I would get a forum infraction for the simple fact that these posts are not trolling which makes it even worse......
eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »I'm sick of people making a sorcerer and then complaining that it's only good with magic. Yet I'm the one accused of trolling. Too funny.kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »So yea thundering presence doesnt even have the speed boost that youd naturally want on a stamina played that cant use blink nearly as much as a magicka sorc.
Theyve really taken the weakest class setup and beat it down in this patch.
This is absolutely awful.
And it doesnt even do that much damage. 510 a second for me with a template character, which just barely makes it worth using from a DPS point of view over just another Wrecking Blow.
Yep - just tested with a flat no buff on my build.
Caltrops doing 1.2k, thundering doing 700
Other morph
Caltrops doing 1.2k, boundless doing 350
This is with no food or anything so my magicka is completely unbuffed. My equipment is full dps here though, which is more than Id normally run on a stam sorc.
So you can do a couple hundred extra damage on the occasions you just happen to be adjacent to someone youre fighting, or you can have major expedition.
Will try to say it as nicely as possible but this is an absolute joke/slap in the face. Nobody is even trying with stam sorc @ZOS.
Tune in to for the next month to enjoy how fun a stam sorc can be to play. Its all going away pretty soon it looks like.
There are three other classes that stamina builds work great for. Leave the sorc alone.
Stam sorc actually works fine in its current state. Most cant make it work because it is not easy to play.
This patch is just tearing it to pieces and the only 'buffs' put in place are actually worse options than sticking to the magicka counterparts.
Wow Fengrush. I really respect you for managing to answer to such posts with such composure. I am sure if I tried to answer his two previous posts I would get a forum infraction for the simple fact that these posts are not trolling which makes it even worse......
Youre the one insisting its only good with magicka. The reality is theyve designed the game to allow all classes to be played in any hybrid fashion. When ZOS clearly has stated they intend to make changes for stam sorc then only put changes in that negatively impact it - theres a right to complain. Unfortunately the crowd of stam sorcs is very small.
Your arguments hold no water.
kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »I'm sick of people making a sorcerer and then complaining that it's only good with magic. Yet I'm the one accused of trolling. Too funny.kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »So yea thundering presence doesnt even have the speed boost that youd naturally want on a stamina played that cant use blink nearly as much as a magicka sorc.
Theyve really taken the weakest class setup and beat it down in this patch.
This is absolutely awful.
And it doesnt even do that much damage. 510 a second for me with a template character, which just barely makes it worth using from a DPS point of view over just another Wrecking Blow.
Yep - just tested with a flat no buff on my build.
Caltrops doing 1.2k, thundering doing 700
Other morph
Caltrops doing 1.2k, boundless doing 350
This is with no food or anything so my magicka is completely unbuffed. My equipment is full dps here though, which is more than Id normally run on a stam sorc.
So you can do a couple hundred extra damage on the occasions you just happen to be adjacent to someone youre fighting, or you can have major expedition.
Will try to say it as nicely as possible but this is an absolute joke/slap in the face. Nobody is even trying with stam sorc @ZOS.
Tune in to for the next month to enjoy how fun a stam sorc can be to play. Its all going away pretty soon it looks like.
There are three other classes that stamina builds work great for. Leave the sorc alone.
Stam sorc actually works fine in its current state. Most cant make it work because it is not easy to play.
This patch is just tearing it to pieces and the only 'buffs' put in place are actually worse options than sticking to the magicka counterparts.
Wow Fengrush. I really respect you for managing to answer to such posts with such composure. I am sure if I tried to answer his two previous posts I would get a forum infraction for the simple fact that these posts are not trolling which makes it even worse......
Get. Out. Of. This. Thread......Now. This is a discussion on stamina sorcs. Unless you have something useful to contribute.
eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »I'm sick of people making a sorcerer and then complaining that it's only good with magic. Yet I'm the one accused of trolling. Too funny.kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »So yea thundering presence doesnt even have the speed boost that youd naturally want on a stamina played that cant use blink nearly as much as a magicka sorc.
Theyve really taken the weakest class setup and beat it down in this patch.
This is absolutely awful.
And it doesnt even do that much damage. 510 a second for me with a template character, which just barely makes it worth using from a DPS point of view over just another Wrecking Blow.
Yep - just tested with a flat no buff on my build.
Caltrops doing 1.2k, thundering doing 700
Other morph
Caltrops doing 1.2k, boundless doing 350
This is with no food or anything so my magicka is completely unbuffed. My equipment is full dps here though, which is more than Id normally run on a stam sorc.
So you can do a couple hundred extra damage on the occasions you just happen to be adjacent to someone youre fighting, or you can have major expedition.
Will try to say it as nicely as possible but this is an absolute joke/slap in the face. Nobody is even trying with stam sorc @ZOS.
Tune in to for the next month to enjoy how fun a stam sorc can be to play. Its all going away pretty soon it looks like.
There are three other classes that stamina builds work great for. Leave the sorc alone.
Stam sorc actually works fine in its current state. Most cant make it work because it is not easy to play.
This patch is just tearing it to pieces and the only 'buffs' put in place are actually worse options than sticking to the magicka counterparts.
Wow Fengrush. I really respect you for managing to answer to such posts with such composure. I am sure if I tried to answer his two previous posts I would get a forum infraction for the simple fact that these posts are not trolling which makes it even worse......
Get. Out. Of. This. Thread......Now. This is a discussion on stamina sorcs. Unless you have something useful to contribute.
Don't. Break. My. Class. I have a vested interest in making sure that dumb ideas don't break the class I love.
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Hey guys, thanks for your patience. We do have a status to share regarding Sorcerers as they currently stand.
First, there is one outstanding issue with Crystal Fragments not proccing when you cast Bolt Escape; we are aiming to fix this by time Update 6 is live. While we aren’t planning to implement any additional changes before Update 6 goes live, we will be keeping a very close eye on how Sorcerers – and all classes – perform in a Live environment, and will make tweaks as necessary. With Update 6 just around the corner, we don’t want to make any drastic changes that could affect gameplay in a negative way.
That said, we do have plans to make the Sorcerer more effective as a stamina DPS, tank, and healer. The first change we already made towards that direction is allowing the Clannfear to heal the caster based on their maximum health when the Clannfear is killed or dismissed. In a future update, we will be looking at giving the Sorcerer unique ways to fulfill the healer role, or deal damage with stamina-based abilities. Some specific issues we will also be evaluating are the number of toggled abilities on the class, Surge healing cooldown, and tweaks to make Dark Exchange more useful.
Please continue to report any issues you may come across, and thank you for all your support and feedback!
eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »I'm sick of people making a sorcerer and then complaining that it's only good with magic. Yet I'm the one accused of trolling. Too funny.kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »So yea thundering presence doesnt even have the speed boost that youd naturally want on a stamina played that cant use blink nearly as much as a magicka sorc.
Theyve really taken the weakest class setup and beat it down in this patch.
This is absolutely awful.
And it doesnt even do that much damage. 510 a second for me with a template character, which just barely makes it worth using from a DPS point of view over just another Wrecking Blow.
Yep - just tested with a flat no buff on my build.
Caltrops doing 1.2k, thundering doing 700
Other morph
Caltrops doing 1.2k, boundless doing 350
This is with no food or anything so my magicka is completely unbuffed. My equipment is full dps here though, which is more than Id normally run on a stam sorc.
So you can do a couple hundred extra damage on the occasions you just happen to be adjacent to someone youre fighting, or you can have major expedition.
Will try to say it as nicely as possible but this is an absolute joke/slap in the face. Nobody is even trying with stam sorc @ZOS.
Tune in to for the next month to enjoy how fun a stam sorc can be to play. Its all going away pretty soon it looks like.
There are three other classes that stamina builds work great for. Leave the sorc alone.
Stam sorc actually works fine in its current state. Most cant make it work because it is not easy to play.
This patch is just tearing it to pieces and the only 'buffs' put in place are actually worse options than sticking to the magicka counterparts.
Wow Fengrush. I really respect you for managing to answer to such posts with such composure. I am sure if I tried to answer his two previous posts I would get a forum infraction for the simple fact that these posts are not trolling which makes it even worse......
Youre the one insisting its only good with magicka. The reality is theyve designed the game to allow all classes to be played in any hybrid fashion. When ZOS clearly has stated they intend to make changes for stam sorc then only put changes in that negatively impact it - theres a right to complain. Unfortunately the crowd of stam sorcs is very small.
Your arguments hold no water.
If it's viable, then it's your argument that holds no water.
So the Stamina Sorc has Thundering Presence now as a stamina morph. I still have zero Sorc abilities that I have to use regularly. Thundering Presence has a 20s duration and is a fire and forget deal AND not to mention stamina Sorc were already using Boundless Storm for the speed buff and PVP stam sorcs may still use Boundless over Thundering for the speed buff.
Come on ZOS, change Crystal Blast to some kind of stamina morph where we actually have to use our Sorc abilities more than every 20-30 seconds.
So the Stamina Sorc has Thundering Presence now as a stamina morph. I still have zero Sorc abilities that I have to use regularly. Thundering Presence has a 20s duration and is a fire and forget deal AND not to mention stamina Sorc were already using Boundless Storm for the speed buff and PVP stam sorcs may still use Boundless over Thundering for the speed buff.
Come on ZOS, change Crystal Blast to some kind of stamina morph where we actually have to use our Sorc abilities more than every 20-30 seconds.
Kronosphere wrote: »So the Stamina Sorc has Thundering Presence now as a stamina morph. I still have zero Sorc abilities that I have to use regularly. Thundering Presence has a 20s duration and is a fire and forget deal AND not to mention stamina Sorc were already using Boundless Storm for the speed buff and PVP stam sorcs may still use Boundless over Thundering for the speed buff.
Come on ZOS, change Crystal Blast to some kind of stamina morph where we actually have to use our Sorc abilities more than every 20-30 seconds.
well there is no spammable ability for stam DK either? a stam dot sure but thats why we use wep skills..
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »We do still have plans to make stamina-based Sorcerer builds more competitive. That said, it’s going to take some time to make comprehensive changes that are balanced, fully tested (both internally and on the PTS), and also include appropriate visual effects. We’re currently keeping an eye on data since Update 6 was published, and have some ideas on what we’d like to pursue. What would you all like to see to make stamina Sorcs a more viable build to use?
Quote from Gina around February in one of my many stamina sorc topics. It is ridiculous to go back to my post history and see all the suggestions and topics i have created and participated in talking about Stamina Sorc and not one single freaking time was it brought up by anyone to change a morph of Lightning Form. @ZOS_GinaBruno I'm not sure if you remember me from last round on PTS where you were the one reaching out to all of the players with Stam Sorc concerns, but Eric Wrobel does not have a grasp of what this class needs or wants. Please headbutt him with much gusto and inform him of what the people actually want.
- Sorc passives that actually help stamina users
- Active Sorc gameplay in a stamina build. Using a buff every 20 seconds is not fun. I feel like I am playing a class neutral weapon spec. There needs to be some kind of damaging stamina attack that is used in proper rotations.
It isn't much to ask and we've been asking for it for months on end. PVP stam sorcs will still use Boundless Storm over Thundering Presence by the way!
Kronosphere wrote: »So the Stamina Sorc has Thundering Presence now as a stamina morph. I still have zero Sorc abilities that I have to use regularly. Thundering Presence has a 20s duration and is a fire and forget deal AND not to mention stamina Sorc were already using Boundless Storm for the speed buff and PVP stam sorcs may still use Boundless over Thundering for the speed buff.
Come on ZOS, change Crystal Blast to some kind of stamina morph where we actually have to use our Sorc abilities more than every 20-30 seconds.
well there is no spammable ability for stam DK either? a stam dot sure but thats why we use wep skills..