ESO needs a simple difficulty slider.

Dahveed

EDIT - A few of you seem a bit confused about the mechanic I am suggesting here, so I will copy/paste a couple paragraphs from a response I added on page 2 to really cut through to the point:

It would simply apply a debuff to your character. This "phasing" nonsense you guys are talking about is quite frankly baffling. Adding a very simple debuff to your character - i.e., "all damage taken is increased by 100%" - is already in their code: any food buff in the game, drink buff, potion buff, ability buff, enemy debuff.... does any of this require "phasing" or complex computational systems of earth-shattering complexity?

Just use this exact same code, apply a debuff to my specific character, and presto! You have fundamentally changed the ENTIRE GAME for the rest of my playthrough. And you have accomplished this with about two hours of dev time, by copy/pasting existing debuff code and putting in an added sub-section to the in-game menu called "difficulty".

ORIGINAL POST:

I won't get into a long-winded and detailed post here about ESO's difficulty, or lack thereof. For those interested in a good discussion about this topic, I encourage you to take a look at this thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/163184/this-game-is-so-frustratingly-easy-and-i-just-cant-take-it-anymore/p1 (EDIT: changed because of wrong link)

Basically, my suggestion would be a very simple difficulty slider just like Oblivion and Skyrim have, from very easy (which, let's face it, is the base difficulty for ESO at the time I am typing this) to "very hard" or "master".

This slider would only work on an individual player level, so that none of the in-game content is actually affected. The slider would work as a player-specific debuff which affects only the individual player. (Those of you who know WoW, just think of the Resurrection Sickness debuff.)

What the slider(s) would do would effectively nerf the player's damage output and healing received, and increase the damage they receive from monsters. There could even be a separate slider for xp gained, if I decided I wanted to slow down the game as well.

This kind of slider would be extremely easy for ZOS to implement and would not affect those players who enjoy the game as it is currently. Indeed those players literally wouldn't even know that anything has changed.

However players like myself - and there are a LOT of us, I believe - who find ESO to be just way, WAY too easy; childishly so, in fact - can easily make it more challenging without going through the dance of "nerfing ourselves" by choosing non-optimal builds, crappy gear, avoiding strong talents or using ultimates, etc.

I believe this very simple idea would bring the game truly back to life for a lot of people who are tired of the monotony of a very easy quest grind.

I appreciate any support you guys can give, and please let's keep the discussion civil.

liammozzb16_ESO

Then how would two people using two difficulty settings fight the same mob?

One way you could do it to yourself would to wear lower level gear.

Tabbycat

What you are proposing sounds a lot like how handicapping racehorses work. The horses that are the strongest and fastest are weighted so that the other horses have a better chance of competing against them. It brings them all on a fairly even level.

As competitive as MMOs tend to be, I don't see players willingly handicapping themselves just so the game is more difficult for them to play.

Dahveed

liammozzb16_ESO wrote: »

Then how would two people using two difficulty settings fight the same mob?

I don't understand the question.

If a regular player attacked the mob, he would deal 100% of his damage to it. If my "hard mode" player attacked the same mob at the same time, I would simply deal my nerfed damage to it.

Not meaning to sound condescending, but what is wrong with this?

Dahveed

Tabbycat wrote: »

What you are proposing sounds a lot like how handicapping racehorses work. The horses that are the strongest and fastest are weighted so that the other horses have a better chance of competing against them. It brings them all on a fairly even level.

As competitive as MMOs tend to be, I don't see players willingly handicapping themselves just so the game is more difficult for them to play.

I suggest you take a look at the discussion I linked to in my OP. There are a lot of players who would do this, I believe.

Not everyone plays MMOs to be competitive. I certainly don't. And I believe Elder Scrolls players, by and large, are not competitive.

And even assuming you are correct, that (let's say) 95% of players don't use this... What harm would be done? You could simply keep playing the game as it is, and nothing would change for you; furthermore, it would have taken ZOS virtually no resources to implement.

What WOULD change is that a lot of players out there, like myself, would have a LOT more fun.

Celless

I support this option.
If a player dies multiple times to content, the game might prompt the player to lower the difficulty.

Perhaps the dungeons / Trials would not be impacted by this. Or if there are, the slider prompt is at the dungeon entrance and starts from Normal and only gets harder. Maybe an achievement for clearing content on the harder difficulty.

I mean, it's really not that much different from most game difficulties being released. Where difficulty just means the enemy has more health and deals more damage (e.g. Call of Duty, Skyrim, etc.)

Side note: For those looking for a small spice of difficulty, turn combat cues off and run Vet City of Ash. Rely on them visual cues.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Dahveed wrote: »

Not meaning to sound condescending, but what is wrong with this?

Everything.

I presume ESO is your first MMO, that'll explain why this apparently 'simple' idea appeals to you. Simply nerfing your damage based on this 'slider' is so laughably simplistic that I really don't think I can explain why this won't work.

Hint: battles consist of a damned sight more than just PCs hitting NPCs with weapons, PCs also use skills that are acquired while leveling ... the solution to that is why level-capping is so hated by many players in games where it levels-down.

liammozzb16_ESO

Dahveed wrote: »

liammozzb16_ESO wrote: »

Then how would two people using two difficulty settings fight the same mob?

I don't understand the question.

If a regular player attacked the mob, he would deal 100% of his damage to it. If my "hard mode" player attacked the same mob at the same time, I would simply deal my nerfed damage to it.

Not meaning to sound condescending, but what is wrong with this?

Because say it's a boss, those fights are balanced before hand. You need to do a minimum amount of DPS, HPS and take enough damage depending on your role. If you nerf your self you can do that and you just become a hindrance to everyone else.

Argoniawind

While I am a true elder scrolls veteran and I agree with the original poster to this difficulty slider thing since it has been in since Morrowind, as I can remember the first version of Morrowind for the xbox didn’t have it and then people complained it was too hard or too easy, so Bethesda put one in. Although I don’t touch the difficulty slider, I feel like it would be excellent to have it in there for ESO as well, after all this is what separates the Elder Scrolls players from the mmo players is the fact by nature Elder Scrolls is a world in which you decide how you wanna play it, kinda like burger king have it your way thing.. Now for mmo players they have what I call play by numbers game play style, being hand held and critiquing everything down to the armor to add ons to keep track of everyone else, deadly boss mobs to a dps counter etc etc and they have their own incomprehensible lingo aka nerf, pug and whatever else. The point is this is gonna be a 2 sided topic and due to the fact that Bethesda wanted to bring Elder Scrolls online and to bring both the elder scrolls and mmo fan bases together in this “open world online rpg”. Now whether or not us as players feel that this slider can be implemented or not is really up to the devs, I would like to see my own summoned daedroth and I would also like to see underwater combat which was not in Skyrim. Again it’s about how much noise from the elder scrolls players that should voice their statements in what we want and not let the voices of the mmo crowd be only heard.. Like they said if people want something and it makes enough noise they will consider it.. after all this is an Elder Scrolls game not a run of the mill mmo!!!

liammozzb16_ESO

Argoniawind wrote: »

While I am a true elder scrolls veteran and I agree with the original poster to this difficulty slider thing since it has been in since Morrowind, as I can remember the first version of Morrowind for the xbox didn’t have it and then people complained it was too hard or too easy, so Bethesda put one in. Although I don’t touch the difficulty slider, I feel like it would be excellent to have it in there for ESO as well, after all this is what separates the Elder Scrolls players from the mmo players is the fact by nature Elder Scrolls is a world in which you decide how you wanna play it, kinda like burger king have it your way thing.. Now for mmo players they have what I call play by numbers game play style, being hand held and critiquing everything down to the armor to add ons to keep track of everyone else, deadly boss mobs to a dps counter etc etc and they have their own incomprehensible lingo aka nerf, pug and whatever else. The point is this is gonna be a 2 sided topic and due to the fact that Bethesda wanted to bring Elder Scrolls online and to bring both the elder scrolls and mmo fan bases together in this “open world online rpg”. Now whether or not us as players feel that this slider can be implemented or not is really up to the devs, I would like to see my own summoned daedroth and I would also like to see underwater combat which was not in Skyrim. Again it’s about how much noise from the elder scrolls players that should voice their statements in what we want and not let the voices of the mmo crowd be only heard.. Like they said if people want something and it makes enough noise they will consider it.. after all this is an Elder Scrolls game not a run of the mill mmo!!!

Now make it work with a boss that has a 3min enrage and 100k HP you nerfed your damage, your never going to pull your own weight and get everyone killed.

Ffastyl

The two ways I had thought of implementing it were as you have suggested and by making alternate phases of the world with different mob strengths. The latter will solve the issue of two different difficulties in the same fight, but separate the playerbase. I cannot comment on which is easier for ZOS to code/implement but I can comment on this discussion.

A difficulty slider should be either just that, a slider, or a number/multiplier value. Using "Easy," "Normal," "Hard," and other difficulty terms carry biases on them, which can be best explained in this video.

This covers more than what this post deals with, so bear in mind not all information is pertinent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM2dDF4B9a4

Argoniawind

liammozzb16_ESO wrote: »

Argoniawind wrote: »

While I am a true elder scrolls veteran and I agree with the original poster to this difficulty slider thing since it has been in since Morrowind, as I can remember the first version of Morrowind for the xbox didn’t have it and then people complained it was too hard or too easy, so Bethesda put one in. Although I don’t touch the difficulty slider, I feel like it would be excellent to have it in there for ESO as well, after all this is what separates the Elder Scrolls players from the mmo players is the fact by nature Elder Scrolls is a world in which you decide how you wanna play it, kinda like burger king have it your way thing.. Now for mmo players they have what I call play by numbers game play style, being hand held and critiquing everything down to the armor to add ons to keep track of everyone else, deadly boss mobs to a dps counter etc etc and they have their own incomprehensible lingo aka nerf, pug and whatever else. The point is this is gonna be a 2 sided topic and due to the fact that Bethesda wanted to bring Elder Scrolls online and to bring both the elder scrolls and mmo fan bases together in this “open world online rpg”. Now whether or not us as players feel that this slider can be implemented or not is really up to the devs, I would like to see my own summoned daedroth and I would also like to see underwater combat which was not in Skyrim. Again it’s about how much noise from the elder scrolls players that should voice their statements in what we want and not let the voices of the mmo crowd be only heard.. Like they said if people want something and it makes enough noise they will consider it.. after all this is an Elder Scrolls game not a run of the mill mmo!!!

Now make it work with a boss that has a 3min enrage and 100k HP you nerfed your damage, your never going to pull your own weight and get everyone killed.

I'm not worried about anyone else I play solo!!!! Do you use nerf guns in this game too?? SMH

Dahveed

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Dahveed wrote: »

Not meaning to sound condescending, but what is wrong with this?

Everything.

I presume ESO is your first MMO, that'll explain why this apparently 'simple' idea appeals to you. Simply nerfing your damage based on this 'slider' is so laughably simplistic that I really don't think I can explain why this won't work.

Hint: battles consist of a damned sight more than just PCs hitting NPCs with weapons, PCs also use skills that are acquired while leveling ... the solution to that is why level-capping is so hated by many players in games where it levels-down.

You accuse me of being "simplistic", say "everything" is wrong with my idea. Then proceed to give exactly zero reasons.

Please be more constructive than this, thank you.

Dahveed

liammozzb16_ESO wrote: »

Argoniawind wrote: »

While I am a true elder scrolls veteran and I agree with the original poster to this difficulty slider thing since it has been in since Morrowind, as I can remember the first version of Morrowind for the xbox didn’t have it and then people complained it was too hard or too easy, so Bethesda put one in. Although I don’t touch the difficulty slider, I feel like it would be excellent to have it in there for ESO as well, after all this is what separates the Elder Scrolls players from the mmo players is the fact by nature Elder Scrolls is a world in which you decide how you wanna play it, kinda like burger king have it your way thing.. Now for mmo players they have what I call play by numbers game play style, being hand held and critiquing everything down to the armor to add ons to keep track of everyone else, deadly boss mobs to a dps counter etc etc and they have their own incomprehensible lingo aka nerf, pug and whatever else. The point is this is gonna be a 2 sided topic and due to the fact that Bethesda wanted to bring Elder Scrolls online and to bring both the elder scrolls and mmo fan bases together in this “open world online rpg”. Now whether or not us as players feel that this slider can be implemented or not is really up to the devs, I would like to see my own summoned daedroth and I would also like to see underwater combat which was not in Skyrim. Again it’s about how much noise from the elder scrolls players that should voice their statements in what we want and not let the voices of the mmo crowd be only heard.. Like they said if people want something and it makes enough noise they will consider it.. after all this is an Elder Scrolls game not a run of the mill mmo!!!

Now make it work with a boss that has a 3min enrage and 100k HP you nerfed your damage, your never going to pull your own weight and get everyone killed.

Then those player have the option not to invite you to their group. They would immediately know that you are a nerfed player before they dungeon even begins, and would have the option to kick you out.

However a group of players wanting more challenge could all agree to bump up the difficulty. If they fail, they simply readjust the slider again. Easy.

Dahveed

liammozzb16_ESO wrote: »

Because say it's a boss, those fights are balanced before hand. You need to do a minimum amount of DPS, HPS and take enough damage depending on your role. If you nerf your self you can do that and you just become a hindrance to everyone else.

Then everyone else to whom I am a hindrance will just ask me to readjust my difficulty, or else they will kick me from the group. In the same way they already have the option of removing terrible players from their group if they are a hindrance. Easy.

grimsfield

I'm lazy so I only read the title.

I disagree. No it doesn't.

Rune_Relic

We actually discussed a similar idea with being overlevelled for content and not getting XP.
We have a range or levels from +5 ~ -5 levels.
Most of eso works off a level multiplier anyway.
So its not a massive issue.

It was to be used in concert with rewards being scaled to suit.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

I cannot believe this is even being brought up. Mother of god. This game is super easy mode as it is. I...I...can't even.....*head explodes*

xDonMega

The difficulty in this game isn't the content... It's having the metal fortitude to grind through 14 veteran ranks with an xp nerf...

And by this game going subscription free after only 1 year, I think that difficulty setting might be way too high already.

Dahveed

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

I cannot believe this is even being brought up. Mother of god. This game is super easy mode as it is. I...I...can't even.....*head explodes*

You misunderstood the intention of this thread. Read it again.

TL;DR: We need the difficulty slider to make it MORE difficult, because it is WAY too easy.

Dahveed

xDonMega wrote: »

The difficulty in this game isn't the content... It's having the metal fortitude to grind through 14 veteran ranks with an xp nerf...

And by this game going subscription free after only 1 year, I think that difficulty setting might be way too high already.

This is where we disagree. I think the big gap in the player base are the "MMO gu;ys" and the "Elder Scrolls/RP guys". I would put myself in the latter category.

The "MMO guys" are all about level cap; this is what most MMOs seem to be about. Get to the end level, get the best loot, kill the boss and get the achievement. Feel like you've won.

The "Elder Scrolls/RP guys" are all about taking their time to soak in the atmosphere, delve into the lore, explore the zones and see all the sights, listen to the quest dialogue and try to stay in character. For us (I wouldn't presume to speak for all of "us" of course), we want fun and challenging quests and dungeons as our character progresses and explores Tamriel.

The problem is that most content, with rare exceptions, feels redundant. You just spent the last 60 minutes on this quest chain? gratz, here's the boss. A non-elite leveled NPC who might spout 1 or 2 lines of dialogue before you kill him in 4 seconds, finishing the fight at full health, barely even using your abilities. Then you complete the quest and the loot, while perhaps an upgrade, feels redundant because your character is OP as hell anyways compared to current leveled content.

This is why a simple difficulty slider would be perfect. Straight out of the gates at lvl 1 I could put it on "Master" difficulty to nerf my character's stats... the fights now just got way more challenging, and I can still feel like I can push myself and my character to the highest level possible using all the tools the game provides (gear, talents, buffs, interrupts dodge etc etc) while still having to stay on my toes against powerful opponents.

dido9880ub17_ESO

OMG people.... this is a MMO. If you want a single player game then go play Skyrim.

The game was more difficult and the majority of people complained and found it too difficult to be enjoyable so it is easier. If you have not played MMOs before this is how they always go. The start off about as difficult as they will be and get easier and easier as they try to attract a larger audience.

This is just not a realistic thing to implement in a MMO.

Dahveed

dido9880ub17_ESO wrote: »

This is just not a realistic thing to implement in a MMO.

Yes it is. I came up with the idea myself in 2 mintues, and it would probably take their dev team 24 or perhaps 48 hours to implement.

Since it only targets the specific player who wants it (as a player-specific debuff), they wouldn't have to balance anything else in the entire game, ever.

And this minuscule amount of effort on the part of ZOS would make the game exponentially more enjoyable for a sizable amount of players wanting greater difficulty in leveling.

I find that ideas like this are generally only frowned upon by people who don't understand them. (No offense.)

Ffastyl

Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Dark Souls II, Bloodborne, and the seven iterations of Etrian Odyssey show the market craves difficult but fair games. To borrow from Extra Credits, what affects a game's sales is how approachable it is, not how difficult - the above titles are good example(s). It's a bit complicated as to why, but developers mistake easy for approachable. Commonly. Difficulty is wanted, and by a sizeable portion of ESO's playerbase. There have been several forum polls on ESO's difficulty and the results are split roughly 50-50 every time, even among personal/guild discussions the opinion is split by the same proportion.

I fall into the too easy camp.
Mechanics can only go so far without stats to back them up.

Ffastyl

Here is the relevant Extra Credits episode to the above post, for any who want to watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea6UuRTjkKs

edit:(seems my info came from two episodes...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWFzFsHc75U

Dahveed

Thank you very much Ffastyl for those links and for your insightful comments about the polling. I tend to agree; difficulty is of course subjective.

As far as the mechanics go, I happen to think that the basic combat mechanics are very well done for an MMO: approachable and easy enough to grasp, but with great potential for fun and good, solid action combat.

But when you say that "mechanics can only go so far without stats to back them up" I really think you hit the nail on the head there. The mechanics are all interesting but totally redundant. If I have a mechanic to interrupt or dodge my enemy who is charging a big power attack, that sounds great on paper. But if said power attack just doesn't deal any damage to me on a consistent basis, then what is the point of dodging it? It just feels redundant.

I will definitely have a look at the vids you posted, thank you.

Argoniawind

dido9880ub17_ESO wrote: »

OMG people.... this is a MMO. If you want a single player game then go play Skyrim.
This is just not a realistic thing to implement in a MMO.

Actually this is not an mmo, infact this is an Elder Scrolls game with some mmo elements for the pc crowd. Elder Scrolls games are "Open World RPGs" ESO is an "Open World Online Rpg". So yeah by your comment about go play Skyrim tells me your new to this series, cus I for one have been playing Elder Scrolls since Morrowind came out on the original xbox. So and the other thing anything can be implemented to this or any other Elder Scrolls game only if Bethesda and the devs want to make it happen!!

Dahveed

Really great videos, thanks for sharing. Not sure to what extent they apply to ESO though; that would be for another thread altogether. I really think ESO's major problem is simple stat balancing.

Which - sorry to toot my own horn here, hehe - is exactly what my thread is asking for. Just a basic slider which would tweak my character's stats so that I can't steamroll monsters, and so that power attack which that bandit takes 3 full seconds to charge up will actually hurt like hell, motivating me to get the hell out of the way.

Gidorick

If XP increased proportionately with the difficulty I'd totally be for it. I could go to lower level areas... slide the difficulty WAY up and get SOME XP for those low level mobs.

Here's a question: would you be willing to PAY for it? What if they offered a difficulty slider that would do the following as you slid it to "more difficult"

1: Increased player damage taken
2: Decreased player damage dealt
3: Decreased Player Health
4: Decreased effectiveness of ALL player initiated potion/food/drink/spell effects
5: Increased experience gain

Then there could be a separate toggle to "Arrest Experience" that is simply an on/off switch. On, you do not gain XP, off you gain XP.

There could also be a toggle to "Level Character" where your character is leveled to the zone, up or down.

Access to these options could be sold in an "Advanced Challenger Pack"

I like the idea. Can anyone think of why this sort of thing might "break" anything?

Ffastyl

I asked about this to some guildmates ingame and one of them said it would be an unrealistic amount of work for the devs on the back end. They are "essentially instancing the world to each individual player." I could not probe him to elaborate, likely because he was involved in several conversations in Team Speak as well. In an attempt to alleviate dev work, there are two methods of implementing a 'difficulty slider' using ingame assets that I can think of.

Apply Battle Level to other zones, standardizing players' stats to just below the zone's average level. Create a separate phase(s) of the world where mobs possess higher stats.

The first is not necessarily a difficulty slider as much as deleveller. Considering the time it takes Brian Wheeler's team to adjust the Battle Level for Cyrodiil, this is likely not a fast nor easy solution. It may not even be possible to assign a separate Battle Level to each zone.
The latter involves doubling or tripling (or more depending on difficulty settings) the number of phases in the game. Phasing is already prevalent throughout quests and dungeons. This method is not a quick nor easy route either, as each phase must be copied and the mobs' stats altered. For every phase across 18 zones.

Implementing adjustable difficulty does not look to be easy, but not impossible either.
Given how burdened ZOS is with their major projects and small staff, adjustable difficulty would be too much at the moment.

In regards to @Gidorick , making this purchasable in the Crown Store would be to many of us (who seek challenge) the same as leaving the game as is. It would also not reflect well upon ZOS to add a paywall to a feature so ubiquitous in gaming. Making adjustable difficulty a standard feature available to all out of the box is the best course.
On a personal note, I would rather not receive an XP boost for increasing difficulty. I understand the logic is bigger challenge = bigger reward, but being a completionist I outlevel content at a ludicrous pace. To myself and at least a handful others, the satisfaction of clearing a tough challenge is reward enough in of itself. A quote from a guild forum thread on farming Dragonstar Arena sums up the sentiment on this:

Ya same xp for running Normal, but I mean, doing VDSA is more fun obv.

SapphireThunder

Argoniawind wrote: »

Actually this is not an mmo, infact this is an Elder Scrolls game with some mmo elements for the pc crowd. Elder Scrolls games are "Open World RPGs" ESO is an "Open World Online Rpg". So yeah by your comment about go play Skyrim tells me your new to this series, cus I for one have been playing Elder Scrolls since Morrowind came out on the original xbox. So and the other thing anything can be implemented to this or any other Elder Scrolls game only if Bethesda and the devs want to make it happen!!

Wrong, this IS an MMO, an MMORPG. MMORPG = Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.
This game is Massive (open-world) Multiplayer (a lot people) Online (online) RPG.
No matter what is said, that fact won't change.

Also this wouldn't work because:

It increases server load since the server has to keep a track on people on different difficulties and create instances differently for different people. this increases already bad performance.
It's not as easy as just nerfing stats. It would require different AI for enemies as well.