Maintenance for the week of September 1:
• [COMPLETE] Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 3, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• [COMPLETE] PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 3, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• [COMPLETE] Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 3, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• [COMPLETE] PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 3, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
ESO needs a simple difficulty slider.
-
Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Alphashado wrote: »
I've been levelling a new sorc (currently level 22ish) she wore prison break out gear for the bulk of that time. . I finally realized I might need access to the passives such as magicka regen to have any sort of sustainable spell casting as I progress. As such o have now equipped 5/1/1 to level my skills to 50 and will likely craft some level 1 gear I find attractive ... Now given I have 110 CP, several other vr characters, 30 years of gaming experience, and my character is a glass cannon build what other choice with no armor)....long story short I still kill on level mobs (including packs, or even chain pulls of 10-15 mobs...yes on level) and now them down. I think the slider suggestion is a step in the right direction but even the combat mechanics could be beefed up a bit.
See, that's just it: If the lvl 1-50 zones were made challenging for you, new players with none of the above bold text, would be quitting this game left and right out of frustration. Just go to a low level zone and hang out for a while. You can tell the difference between a true newb and someone leveling an alt. Watch the true newb for a while. They still nearly die on very mob of 3 or more.
There HAS to be a place for new players to enjoy the game.
If ZoS can figure out a way to put a debuff on vet players in lowbie zones then so be it. That is the only viable method I see. But we can't just increase the difficulty.
That's fine I love new players and think that they should enjoy it too...this is why a slider would be great for difficulty (now as for the exp debuff slider, ehh why not program it in... I would never use that as the current system seems painfully slow but if others would then fine....well a complete exp off button I might use for non vet cyrodil, but that's the exception).
I think the biggest things killing new players are:
1) standing in the fire
2) not blocking
3) not kiting
4) not having a good initial build to evolve from.
I think if you fix these things then you can ramp up the mechanics a bit.
In a sec I will post some ideas on how,to address the above problems.
Well of course those things are killing new players. That is precisely my point. 1-50 is designed to give new players time to learn how to do all that stuff. It will take them time to learn how to block. It takes time and practice to learn how to kite and avoid big hits. It takes time and ALOT of mistakes to learn which builds work and which builds don't work. This is precisely what the 1-50 zones are designed for. A learning curve.
Now when you go back there having already mastered all this stuff, then add gear sets and Champion Points, of course it's gonna be easy.
1 -
Faugaun✭✭✭✭✭OK basically I think it is a game companies responsibility to train their players in all the effective mechanics an effective way to do so would be to introduce a more comprehensive in game tutorial. Which really hammers in how important these skills are very quickly.
So to address the player problem I would make new accounts have a mandatory zone (like then current skippable intro) if your account has never gone through it then it cannot be skipped. The voyage along the way should be very guided. I am talking freeze frame mid combat and introduce the shield "now press the right click mouse key and block this attack that would otherwise kill you".
Then an aoe battle where it says " in this next fight the enemies will be putting damage spells on the ground, these are indicated by red circles. You will have to step out of the circles to live long enough to kill the enemies".
Healing aoe's "Here is a green circle you need to block and remain in the circle to survive until your allies kill the enemy".
Walk them through equipping gear, the character stats screen, equipping and morphing skills, all current combat mechanics in the game....not the champion system (they need that tutorial when their first character hits VR, make it part of using the cs the first time).
These should be very structured just like the crafting training quests when you are trained by master craftsmen. With detailed explanations for every screen, menu, action etc... that players could need. Then have subsequent training for new features as the player unlocks them (the cyrodil training is good, dual wield might need some working on).
All of this training should be mandatory to educate players so they fully understand the game controls and mechanics before getting to the real game and then becoming frustrated.
Some of this is already in the game it just needs to be beefed up to put everyone on equal footing.
Once completed the first time then players should be allowed to skip the tutorial stuff in the future.
Said training should be both quick and concise and clear without opportunity for misunderstanding and the combat mechanics portion should be exagerrated to show how for instance blocking can really save your life. Standing in fire can really kill you.Running off without your healer can really kill you...etc...
Additionally some consideration needs to occur and not front load so much information and train the player so much that they do not remember what they learned at the beginning after the training is over. Simultaneously, it needs to be attractively done and in a way that it doesn't interrupt the player if they are in a dungeon or grouped or something else.
Perhaps even adding a helper ....for instance if the game detects that you died 3x in a row to a certain skill then the game will say "Hey we noticed you have been dying a lot to <insert name of skill> this is a skill that <insert skill description here> an effective way to deal with this mechanic is to <insert directions here> click here to see the animation that goes with this skill." <clicking shows an embedded video of an NPC using the skill (to show the graphic) and a player following the suggested advice to effectivly handle the mechanic (heck even add a slow motion and a live speed option)>.
So the player can read (and even watch) what is killing them and receive a suggested (not necessarily the best, just an effective) method to counter the problem they are facing.
Maybe hire an education specialist who specializes in teaching the demographic that is the target player base (in this case I think that is adult education). This person should focus solely on ways to improve the player base's understanding of the game without interfering with the game.My new startup social network for Theorycrafting
Champion Point Calculators
Sharable samples:
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Warrior.htm?ba=5&bl=&e=12&ha=10&he=&l=&m=&n=5&q=20&r=15&s=15&t=18
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Thief.htm?a=5&b=22&d=2&e=18&h=8&ma=0&mo=5&sh=9&sp=19&te=12&tu=13&w=1
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Mage.htm?bla=5&ble=1&bo=6&ele=2&elf=3&h=7&m=9&pi=10&pr=20&sp=4&st=8&t=401 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
Despite your assertions that this is a "different type of MMO", you've actually ignored a lot of the mechanical issues presented by segmenting the population in this way. I know you believe the population is already segmented, but it simply isn't. There aren't people running around experiencing the same content as I am at a totally different level of difficulty (which, by the way, is more than just making things hit harder).
This is a completely unfeasible mechanic in an MMO, and it defeats the very purpose of the game being massively multiplayer. If you want a solo Elder Scrolls experience, you have five fantastic games to choose from. No need to try and make this one of them.
If I want to solo this game, then I will solo this game. That is why, so far, I have experienced almost my entire playthrough - so far, about 100 hours total - solo. This is why the only RL friend I know who also plays this game also plays it solo, and he's played more than I have. Are we not allowed to have fun? Is our "segmented" experience going to rain on your parade in any way?
Tell me - name ONE THING - that would change in your life if my 100 hours of SOLO PLAY were in a context in which I took more damage when enemies hit me. All this time I've been playing 100% solo, segmented, completely detached from what others are doing, completely removed from your experience of the game, and both you and I have been completely oblivious of one another - yes, that's right, you and I have played this game for a total of zero hours together.
And you know what? I AM enjoying the game. Immensely, in fact. As a SINGLE PLAYER GAME, doing virtually no group content, just questing, gearing up, crafting, exploring, finding treasure maps, occasionally asking for help in the /trade section - which just saves me a couple minutes searching google. THAT is the extent of my "multiplayer" experience so far.
So please stop telling me how I am supposed to play this game. I already know how.
The only thing I am requesting is one simple feature which would make MY SOLO EXPERIENCE OF THIS GAME a little bit more challenging, which would IN NO WAY infringe upon your ability to experience it as a multiplayer adventure.
Yes, it would be incredibly easy to implement. I have explained how.
No, it would not "segment" me from the rest of the players, as I am already 100% segmented from all other players except for one colleague from work whom I occasionally (like once every 3 weeks) group with.
It would not affect you or people you play with in any way whatsoever.
And yes, it is entirely possible with a tiny amount of effort from the developers, and far less negativity from condescending naysayers who believe that they somehow know all the secrets about the inner workings of an MMO and the catastrophic effects that one small change would incur.
Changes happen in MMOs ALL THE BLOODY TIME. Literally every. single. patch. something major is changing. Indeed fundamental, revolutionary changes happen on a regular basis in MMOs (did you not know this, or is this your first MMO?)... so you can't tell me that this simple slider which effects only my character will somehow change the entire dynamic of the entire MMO community for all time.
Finally, the "agree to disagree" point is not well taken. I've found that no matter how hard you try, you just can't convince people on the internet about anything, which is why I am getting fed up.
It's like I'm telling you that 2+2=4, then you're going off about the molecular structure of Jupiter to disprove my point.
The game works in the way that calculations and interactions are based on static
IF the difficulty of your experience is altered for you enjoyed, by default EVERYONE who is online when you're online has to play with that difficulty. This presents a problem for you and others
IF they allowed this, what happens is whomever sets the ease or difficulty controls EVERYONE else's experience. You describe wanting something to only alter your character vs the NPC's.
Again, if you change yourself the game has to adjust its calculations to you and everyone else. Unfortunately, when playing in an online world...be instances is the only way to accomplish this so in essence, for solo only, this limits you to changing the difficulty in solo only areas. That's a very small part of the game and a one and done situation.
I know it's hard to comprehend why ZOS can't just change your player only for your benefit but every variable requires server calculations so if not instances, the added millions of calculations for each person who wants what you desire overloads the server.
Yet another person who completely misses the point. Read my post again.
There are NO calculations to do. No NPC tweaking to do. No mobs to adjust. Everything in the entire game world stays EXACTLY as it is.
THE ONLY ASSET IN THE ENTIRE GAME WORLD WHICH WOULD CHANGE WOULD BE MY CHARACTER'S STATS.
If your character casts a buff on himself, does every NPC in the entire game world change for every player on the server?
No, of course it doesn't. It just changes YOUR stats, nobody else's.
If they used this same buff/debuff principle ON MY CHARACTER AND ONLY ON MY CHARACTER to debuff me, NOTHING WOULD CHANGE in the world, in the same way that nothing would change in the game world when you eat a piece of buff food.
Yet another "expert" coming in here with their naysaying condescension who hasn't even bothered to understand the post.
It's getting frustrating now.
I read it all...do you understand how games work when played on a server?
Do you realize that your character is not on your computer nor the world they interact with.
IF your character stats were able to be changed, others would have the same option.
The way your character does damage, takes damage and collide with the world is all based on calculations.
Just making the character stats change are calculations. So in order for you to have this experience, others will also get the option...not just you. I don't want this but you do...so if you and I are hitting the same areas, the game is going to calculate the two different interactions just like it does today BUT your adding another player variable so this doubles the calculations
In order for any change in cause and affect to occur, calculations have to be programmed and then done server side so your gaming experience represents any adjustments.
If your character is to take more damage or have a tougher experience but another chapter has today's experience...the server has to be able to process both simultaneously because unless you're in a solo only instances zone, any other player can collide and different calculations must occur for each collision.
Sorry but this is how server based technology works. Please don't be rude to others because you're not hearing what you want to hear
The server is struggling as is
Edited by NewBlacksmurf on April 19, 2015 1:11PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5011 -
Faugaun✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
Despite your assertions that this is a "different type of MMO", you've actually ignored a lot of the mechanical issues presented by segmenting the population in this way. I know you believe the population is already segmented, but it simply isn't. There aren't people running around experiencing the same content as I am at a totally different level of difficulty (which, by the way, is more than just making things hit harder).
This is a completely unfeasible mechanic in an MMO, and it defeats the very purpose of the game being massively multiplayer. If you want a solo Elder Scrolls experience, you have five fantastic games to choose from. No need to try and make this one of them.
If I want to solo this game, then I will solo this game. That is why, so far, I have experienced almost my entire playthrough - so far, about 100 hours total - solo. This is why the only RL friend I know who also plays this game also plays it solo, and he's played more than I have. Are we not allowed to have fun? Is our "segmented" experience going to rain on your parade in any way?
Tell me - name ONE THING - that would change in your life if my 100 hours of SOLO PLAY were in a context in which I took more damage when enemies hit me. All this time I've been playing 100% solo, segmented, completely detached from what others are doing, completely removed from your experience of the game, and both you and I have been completely oblivious of one another - yes, that's right, you and I have played this game for a total of zero hours together.
And you know what? I AM enjoying the game. Immensely, in fact. As a SINGLE PLAYER GAME, doing virtually no group content, just questing, gearing up, crafting, exploring, finding treasure maps, occasionally asking for help in the /trade section - which just saves me a couple minutes searching google. THAT is the extent of my "multiplayer" experience so far.
So please stop telling me how I am supposed to play this game. I already know how.
The only thing I am requesting is one simple feature which would make MY SOLO EXPERIENCE OF THIS GAME a little bit more challenging, which would IN NO WAY infringe upon your ability to experience it as a multiplayer adventure.
Yes, it would be incredibly easy to implement. I have explained how.
No, it would not "segment" me from the rest of the players, as I am already 100% segmented from all other players except for one colleague from work whom I occasionally (like once every 3 weeks) group with.
It would not affect you or people you play with in any way whatsoever.
And yes, it is entirely possible with a tiny amount of effort from the developers, and far less negativity from condescending naysayers who believe that they somehow know all the secrets about the inner workings of an MMO and the catastrophic effects that one small change would incur.
Changes happen in MMOs ALL THE BLOODY TIME. Literally every. single. patch. something major is changing. Indeed fundamental, revolutionary changes happen on a regular basis in MMOs (did you not know this, or is this your first MMO?)... so you can't tell me that this simple slider which effects only my character will somehow change the entire dynamic of the entire MMO community for all time.
Finally, the "agree to disagree" point is not well taken. I've found that no matter how hard you try, you just can't convince people on the internet about anything, which is why I am getting fed up.
It's like I'm telling you that 2+2=4, then you're going off about the molecular structure of Jupiter to disprove my point.
The game works in the way that calculations and interactions are based on static
IF the difficulty of your experience is altered for you enjoyed, by default EVERYONE who is online when you're online has to play with that difficulty. This presents a problem for you and others
IF they allowed this, what happens is whomever sets the ease or difficulty controls EVERYONE else's experience. You describe wanting something to only alter your character vs the NPC's.
Again, if you change yourself the game has to adjust its calculations to you and everyone else. Unfortunately, when playing in an online world...be instances is the only way to accomplish this so in essence, for solo only, this limits you to changing the difficulty in solo only areas. That's a very small part of the game and a one and done situation.
I know it's hard to comprehend why ZOS can't just change your player only for your benefit but every variable requires server calculations so if not instances, the added millions of calculations for each person who wants what you desire overloads the server.
Yet another person who completely misses the point. Read my post again.
There are NO calculations to do. No NPC tweaking to do. No mobs to adjust. Everything in the entire game world stays EXACTLY as it is.
THE ONLY ASSET IN THE ENTIRE GAME WORLD WHICH WOULD CHANGE WOULD BE MY CHARACTER'S STATS.
If your character casts a buff on himself, does every NPC in the entire game world change for every player on the server?
No, of course it doesn't. It just changes YOUR stats, nobody else's.
If they used this same buff/debuff principle ON MY CHARACTER AND ONLY ON MY CHARACTER to debuff me, NOTHING WOULD CHANGE in the world, in the same way that nothing would change in the game world when you eat a piece of buff food.
Yet another "expert" coming in here with their naysaying condescension who hasn't even bothered to understand the post.
It's getting frustrating now.
I read it all...do you understand how games work when played on a server?
Do you realize that your character is not on your computer nor the world they interact with.
IF your character stats were able to be changed, others would have the same option.
The way your character does damage, takes damage and collide with the world is all based on calculations.
Just making the character stats change are calculations. So in order for you to have this experience, others will also get the option...not just you. I don't want this but you do...so if you and I are hitting the same areas, the game is going to calculate the two different interactions just like it does today BUT your adding another player variable so this doubles the calculations
In order for any change in cause and affect to occur, calculations have to be programmed and then done server side so your gaming experience represents any adjustments.
If your character is to take more damage or have a tougher experience but another chapter has today's experience...the server has to be able to process both simultaneously because unless you're in a solo only instances zone, any other player can collide and different calculations must occur for each collision.
Sorry but this is how server based technology works. Please don't be rude to others because you're not hearing what you want to hear
The server is struggling as is
I'm sorry @NewBlacksmurf I am not understanding your view, could you please clarify the mechanical problems with a player based debuff? I mean suppose we made the debuff a food item ( a slider is better but a food item for explanation). Suppose when I eat a "questionable meat sack" I get sick and it causes my health and stamina to be decreased by 25% for an hour (or any other combination of stats). The extra calculations you refer to are simply a one time calculation that occurs when the change applies and reassigning the stored constants utilized for the other calculations which already occur. This is no more difficult on the server than simply equipping / unequippimg a set of gear. It only impacts your player and those whom your player groups with....and guess what if someone doesn't like how my settings are there are two easy fixes (I can slide my slider and accommodate them or they can find someone else to play with).
Suppose I am cruising along on difficult mode and run into a fight and die a few times....slider down beat the encounter, slider back up....no frustration on my part (well not more than I choose). Noobie players can learn and more advanced players can be required strict adherence to the mechanics.
I still think the difficulty of the mechanics should be increased (and a slider added in) easy mode messing up on mechanics you can still be just fine. Hard mode if you mess up too much you can easily die. The enemy uses the same mechanics now matter what your difficulty but on harder difficulty the mechanics are a range of increases in how punishing they are.
I do not see how you find this to be problematic from a server standpoint a mechanics stand point or even a community standpoint if it is a slider in your options window that can be changed at anytime. Please elaborate your concerns?My new startup social network for Theorycrafting
Champion Point Calculators
Sharable samples:
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Warrior.htm?ba=5&bl=&e=12&ha=10&he=&l=&m=&n=5&q=20&r=15&s=15&t=18
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Thief.htm?a=5&b=22&d=2&e=18&h=8&ma=0&mo=5&sh=9&sp=19&te=12&tu=13&w=1
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Mage.htm?bla=5&ble=1&bo=6&ele=2&elf=3&h=7&m=9&pi=10&pr=20&sp=4&st=8&t=402 -
Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't have a problem with the idea of debuff food. I would however have a problem with getting better rewards while using it leading to group members being required to use it.
"LFM Vet FG. V12+, must have debuff food". <~ I don't want to see that. It's already hard enough to find a group.2 -
Faugaun✭✭✭✭✭Alphashado wrote: »I don't have a problem with the idea of debuff food. I would however have a problem with getting better rewards while using it leading to group members being required to use it.
"LFM Vet FG. V12+, must have debuff food". <~ I don't want to see that. It's already hard enough to find a group.
I don't have an opinion either way on the rewards I would not want to see a change that impedes players interacting with other players. I think an increased gear/exp system might be implementable if your setting only impacted your personal loot/gear gains and not the other members of your group. This way (if it were a slider) you could scale up your difficulty and reward and if you die to much or fail to function in your roll, then you can simply dial back your difficulty to finish the content and go find a new group. I think the slider bar is a great way to achieve a custom difficulty scale and the more sliders the better....maybe a slider for health, a slider for magicka, a slider for outgoing damage, a slider for incoming damage, a slider for armor resist, a slider for spell resist. So you can really customize where difficulty is added. The ability to save your personal favorites and some premade (like graphic settings) difficulty settings so that you can quickly adjust if needed with minimal downtime.
I think if they did go for changes in loot/exp tables based on difficulty settings it should be implemented gradually and player behavior monitored to ensure no abuse or unwanted side effects.Edited by Faugaun on April 19, 2015 1:52PMMy new startup social network for Theorycrafting
Champion Point Calculators
Sharable samples:
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Warrior.htm?ba=5&bl=&e=12&ha=10&he=&l=&m=&n=5&q=20&r=15&s=15&t=18
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Thief.htm?a=5&b=22&d=2&e=18&h=8&ma=0&mo=5&sh=9&sp=19&te=12&tu=13&w=1
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Mage.htm?bla=5&ble=1&bo=6&ele=2&elf=3&h=7&m=9&pi=10&pr=20&sp=4&st=8&t=401 -
eliisra✭✭✭✭✭
✭God, it's so easy it's mind-boggling. Yet the naysayers will keep coming to threads like these with their condescending "expertise" about how complex an MMO is and how everyone's head would explode if my character had a simple debuff placed on him.
I just don't get it.
It's not about complex MMO blah blah. It's the fact that a system like yours would be situational and only used by a few.
How many players would willingly gimp their character in relation to everyone running about around them? Than add the lack of actual benefits from being a gimp. You wont even get the immersion bit, because the other guys doing the same quest still 2 shots everything like demi-gods. You will also get less exp and loot, because your dps cant keep up with others in the area hunting the same things. Ever tried doing a dolmen in 1.6.5 not solo? Half the mobs or more die so fast you're not getting any exp.
Considering those things, a debuff like this would only function well for solo exclusive instances, but those could already have their own scaling or slider. I guess you could activate it early morning or night when no one around for some nice solo game play, but again that's situational. One guy can show up any time and wipe the entire area in one AoE and you will curse over the fact that you only do 10% of his dps.1 -
Faugaun✭✭✭✭✭God, it's so easy it's mind-boggling. Yet the naysayers will keep coming to threads like these with their condescending "expertise" about how complex an MMO is and how everyone's head would explode if my character had a simple debuff placed on him.
I just don't get it.
It's not about complex MMO blah blah. It's the fact that a system like yours would be situational and only used by a few.
How many players would willingly gimp their character in relation to everyone running about around them? Than add the lack of actual benefits from being a gimp. You wont even get the immersion bit, because the other guys doing the same quest still 2 shots everything like demi-gods. You will also get less exp and loot, because your dps cant keep up with others in the area hunting the same things. Ever tried doing a dolmen in 1.6.5 not solo? Half the mobs or more die so fast you're not getting any exp.
Considering those things, a debuff like this would only function well for solo exclusive instances, but those could already have their own scaling or slider. I guess you could activate it early morning or night when no one around for some nice solo game play, but again that's situational. One guy can show up any time and wipe the entire area in one AoE and you will curse over the fact that you only do 10% of his dps.
You cannot know that! I have personally Gimped my character for more challenge with no increase (and in fact a potential comparative decrease as you so aptly put) in reward. Op would and some others....judging by this thread a percent of the population significantly greater than 1% might consider using this feature at some point.it would be fairly easy to program and not require much resources from ZoS and could potentially generate more interest from players seeking a challenge which in turn could increase the game population which indirectly put more money in zos' pockets, which could be used to further development if they choose, and makes the game profitable longer meaning we all get to have this virtual world available longer. All of this for designing a slider bar (s) ui and implementing a debuff system using already existing code from in the game. I bet a working beta could be programmed in an afternoon by a single programmer.
The question then becomes is an afternoon of work worth the potential benefits from said system?
Suppose the game has 1,000,000 players and only .1% of players use the feature and since the game is B2P only 1% (the whale population) spend additional money. Then you are left with 100 paying customers who appreciate the feature if only 10% of those sub for ESOplus then that is a guaranteed $150 a month (recurring) for an afternoon of programming. Not to mention the other 90% of that 100 players who pay money in non sub ways and also appreciate the feature. Why not then?Edited by Faugaun on April 19, 2015 2:37PMMy new startup social network for Theorycrafting
Champion Point Calculators
Sharable samples:
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Warrior.htm?ba=5&bl=&e=12&ha=10&he=&l=&m=&n=5&q=20&r=15&s=15&t=18
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Thief.htm?a=5&b=22&d=2&e=18&h=8&ma=0&mo=5&sh=9&sp=19&te=12&tu=13&w=1
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Mage.htm?bla=5&ble=1&bo=6&ele=2&elf=3&h=7&m=9&pi=10&pr=20&sp=4&st=8&t=401 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭God, it's so easy it's mind-boggling. Yet the naysayers will keep coming to threads like these with their condescending "expertise" about how complex an MMO is and how everyone's head would explode if my character had a simple debuff placed on him.
I just don't get it.
It's not about complex MMO blah blah. It's the fact that a system like yours would be situational and only used by a few.
How many players would willingly gimp their character in relation to everyone running about around them? Than add the lack of actual benefits from being a gimp. You wont even get the immersion bit, because the other guys doing the same quest still 2 shots everything like demi-gods. You will also get less exp and loot, because your dps cant keep up with others in the area hunting the same things. Ever tried doing a dolmen in 1.6.5 not solo? Half the mobs or more die so fast you're not getting any exp.
Considering those things, a debuff like this would only function well for solo exclusive instances, but those could already have their own scaling or slider. I guess you could activate it early morning or night when no one around for some nice solo game play, but again that's situational. One guy can show up any time and wipe the entire area in one AoE and you will curse over the fact that you only do 10% of his dps.
You cannot know that! I have personally Gimped my character for more challenge with no increase (and in fact a potential comparative decrease as you so aptly put) in reward. Op would and some others....judging by this thread a percent of the population greater than 1% might consider using this feature at some point.it would be fairly easy to program and not require much resources from ZoS and could potentially generate more interest from players seeking a challenge which in turn could increase the game population which indirectly put more money in zos' pockets, which could be used to further development if they choose, and makes the game profitable longer meaning we all get to have this virtual world available longer. All of this for designing a slider bar (s) ui and implementing a debuff system using already existing code from in the game. I bet a working beta could be programmed in an afternoon.
The question then becomes is an afternoon of work worth the potential benefits from said system?
Suppose the game has 1,000,000 sub's and only .1% of players like the feature and since the game is B2P only 1% (the whale population) spend additional money. Then you are left with 100 paying customers who appreciate the feature if only 10% of those sub for ESOplus then that is a guaranteed $150 a month (recurring) for an afternoon of programming. Not to mention the other 90% of that pay money in non sub ways and also appreciate the feature. Why not then?
It's much more than an afternoon of work.
Even the "difficulty debuff" that you guys are now proposing (after initially wanting phasing) would require quite a bit of coding, and it would completely wreck group mechanics.
Rewards are just one issue. What happens when one DPS in the group wants to have their difficulty higher and keeps dying because no one else in the group is equipped to deal with them taking so much damage? Or what if someone wants to play on an easier setting? How many difficulty levels should there be? How will we deal with the extremely specific kinds of groups that will inevitably form as a result?----
Murray?0 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
Despite your assertions that this is a "different type of MMO", you've actually ignored a lot of the mechanical issues presented by segmenting the population in this way. I know you believe the population is already segmented, but it simply isn't. There aren't people running around experiencing the same content as I am at a totally different level of difficulty (which, by the way, is more than just making things hit harder).
This is a completely unfeasible mechanic in an MMO, and it defeats the very purpose of the game being massively multiplayer. If you want a solo Elder Scrolls experience, you have five fantastic games to choose from. No need to try and make this one of them.
If I want to solo this game, then I will solo this game. That is why, so far, I have experienced almost my entire playthrough - so far, about 100 hours total - solo. This is why the only RL friend I know who also plays this game also plays it solo, and he's played more than I have. Are we not allowed to have fun? Is our "segmented" experience going to rain on your parade in any way?
Tell me - name ONE THING - that would change in your life if my 100 hours of SOLO PLAY were in a context in which I took more damage when enemies hit me. All this time I've been playing 100% solo, segmented, completely detached from what others are doing, completely removed from your experience of the game, and both you and I have been completely oblivious of one another - yes, that's right, you and I have played this game for a total of zero hours together.
And you know what? I AM enjoying the game. Immensely, in fact. As a SINGLE PLAYER GAME, doing virtually no group content, just questing, gearing up, crafting, exploring, finding treasure maps, occasionally asking for help in the /trade section - which just saves me a couple minutes searching google. THAT is the extent of my "multiplayer" experience so far.
So please stop telling me how I am supposed to play this game. I already know how.
The only thing I am requesting is one simple feature which would make MY SOLO EXPERIENCE OF THIS GAME a little bit more challenging, which would IN NO WAY infringe upon your ability to experience it as a multiplayer adventure.
Yes, it would be incredibly easy to implement. I have explained how.
No, it would not "segment" me from the rest of the players, as I am already 100% segmented from all other players except for one colleague from work whom I occasionally (like once every 3 weeks) group with.
It would not affect you or people you play with in any way whatsoever.
And yes, it is entirely possible with a tiny amount of effort from the developers, and far less negativity from condescending naysayers who believe that they somehow know all the secrets about the inner workings of an MMO and the catastrophic effects that one small change would incur.
Changes happen in MMOs ALL THE BLOODY TIME. Literally every. single. patch. something major is changing. Indeed fundamental, revolutionary changes happen on a regular basis in MMOs (did you not know this, or is this your first MMO?)... so you can't tell me that this simple slider which effects only my character will somehow change the entire dynamic of the entire MMO community for all time.
Finally, the "agree to disagree" point is not well taken. I've found that no matter how hard you try, you just can't convince people on the internet about anything, which is why I am getting fed up.
It's like I'm telling you that 2+2=4, then you're going off about the molecular structure of Jupiter to disprove my point.
The game works in the way that calculations and interactions are based on static
IF the difficulty of your experience is altered for you enjoyed, by default EVERYONE who is online when you're online has to play with that difficulty. This presents a problem for you and others
IF they allowed this, what happens is whomever sets the ease or difficulty controls EVERYONE else's experience. You describe wanting something to only alter your character vs the NPC's.
Again, if you change yourself the game has to adjust its calculations to you and everyone else. Unfortunately, when playing in an online world...be instances is the only way to accomplish this so in essence, for solo only, this limits you to changing the difficulty in solo only areas. That's a very small part of the game and a one and done situation.
I know it's hard to comprehend why ZOS can't just change your player only for your benefit but every variable requires server calculations so if not instances, the added millions of calculations for each person who wants what you desire overloads the server.
Yet another person who completely misses the point. Read my post again.
There are NO calculations to do. No NPC tweaking to do. No mobs to adjust. Everything in the entire game world stays EXACTLY as it is.
THE ONLY ASSET IN THE ENTIRE GAME WORLD WHICH WOULD CHANGE WOULD BE MY CHARACTER'S STATS.
If your character casts a buff on himself, does every NPC in the entire game world change for every player on the server?
No, of course it doesn't. It just changes YOUR stats, nobody else's.
If they used this same buff/debuff principle ON MY CHARACTER AND ONLY ON MY CHARACTER to debuff me, NOTHING WOULD CHANGE in the world, in the same way that nothing would change in the game world when you eat a piece of buff food.
Yet another "expert" coming in here with their naysaying condescension who hasn't even bothered to understand the post.
It's getting frustrating now.
I read it all...do you understand how games work when played on a server?
Do you realize that your character is not on your computer nor the world they interact with.
IF your character stats were able to be changed, others would have the same option.
The way your character does damage, takes damage and collide with the world is all based on calculations.
Just making the character stats change are calculations. So in order for you to have this experience, others will also get the option...not just you. I don't want this but you do...so if you and I are hitting the same areas, the game is going to calculate the two different interactions just like it does today BUT your adding another player variable so this doubles the calculations
In order for any change in cause and affect to occur, calculations have to be programmed and then done server side so your gaming experience represents any adjustments.
If your character is to take more damage or have a tougher experience but another chapter has today's experience...the server has to be able to process both simultaneously because unless you're in a solo only instances zone, any other player can collide and different calculations must occur for each collision.
Sorry but this is how server based technology works. Please don't be rude to others because you're not hearing what you want to hear
The server is struggling as is
I'm sorry @NewBlacksmurf I am not understanding your view, could you please clarify the mechanical problems with a player based debuff? I mean suppose we made the debuff a food item ( a slider is better but a food item for explanation). Suppose when I eat a "questionable meat sack" I get sick and it causes my health and stamina to be decreased by 25% for an hour (or any other combination of stats). The extra calculations you refer to are simply a one time calculation that occurs when the change applies and reassigning the stored constants utilized for the other calculations which already occur. This is no more difficult on the server than simply equipping / unequippimg a set of gear. It only impacts your player and those whom your player groups with....and guess what if someone doesn't like how my settings are there are two easy fixes (I can slide my slider and accommodate them or they can find someone else to play with).
Suppose I am cruising along on difficult mode and run into a fight and die a few times....slider down beat the encounter, slider back up....no frustration on my part (well not more than I choose). Noobie players can learn and more advanced players can be required strict adherence to the mechanics.
I still think the difficulty of the mechanics should be increased (and a slider added in) easy mode messing up on mechanics you can still be just fine. Hard mode if you mess up too much you can easily die. The enemy uses the same mechanics now matter what your difficulty but on harder difficulty the mechanics are a range of increases in how punishing they are.
I do not see how you find this to be problematic from a server standpoint a mechanics stand point or even a community standpoint if it is a slider in your options window that can be changed at anytime. Please elaborate your concerns?
Do you understand how food n drink buffs work now?
The same would have to be programmed
The problem isn't with a food debuff but it's with the "slider" ideas. That just can't happen in this type of game because content is either scaled or set. You're desiring a real time customizable experience per player.
Every time the slider is moved a player would have to either log off and back on or completely reload into the world (because the world won't change) so this requires the server to build in "x" amount of calculations per notch on the slider and per player multiplied by however many players are online.
What I'm saying is your idea requires a super computer server and no game with a mega server is running that kinda juice. Also the cou and ram requirements to up exponentially with this idea so again....nope
Edit. All this considering any other player will change your slider once they hit anything your engaged in combat with. Human nature is when someone is struggling others come to help so the MMO structure prevents any of this unless you're in a solo only instance.
As far as rewards...NO. Rewards should not be given for this idea. The reward is survivalEdited by NewBlacksmurf on April 19, 2015 3:06PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »
Even the "difficulty debuff" that you guys are now proposing (after initially wanting phasing) would require quite a bit of coding, and it would completely wreck group mechanics.
Rewards are just one issue. What happens when one DPS in the group wants to have their difficulty higher and keeps dying because no one else in the group is equipped to deal with them taking so much damage? Or what if someone wants to play on an easier setting? How many difficulty levels should there be? How will we deal with the extremely specific kinds of groups that will inevitably form as a result?
Two issues.
1-How hard is this, really? Take a five point scale, and compare it to the standardized buffs/debuffs in the game. So we'd have 1-Major Difficulty (say 25% harder less damage given & 25% more damage taken & +25% EP/XP), 2-Minor Difficulty (10%), 3-Standard, 4-Minor Ease/Blessing (-10% to all of those mentioned), 5-Major Ease/Blessing (-25%)
2-Have the difficulty slider in a group scale to the group leader AND DISPLAY so that people can immediately agree/disagree or negotiate.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis0 -
Faugaun✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »God, it's so easy it's mind-boggling. Yet the naysayers will keep coming to threads like these with their condescending "expertise" about how complex an MMO is and how everyone's head would explode if my character had a simple debuff placed on him.
I just don't get it.
It's not about complex MMO blah blah. It's the fact that a system like yours would be situational and only used by a few.
How many players would willingly gimp their character in relation to everyone running about around them? Than add the lack of actual benefits from being a gimp. You wont even get the immersion bit, because the other guys doing the same quest still 2 shots everything like demi-gods. You will also get less exp and loot, because your dps cant keep up with others in the area hunting the same things. Ever tried doing a dolmen in 1.6.5 not solo? Half the mobs or more die so fast you're not getting any exp.
Considering those things, a debuff like this would only function well for solo exclusive instances, but those could already have their own scaling or slider. I guess you could activate it early morning or night when no one around for some nice solo game play, but again that's situational. One guy can show up any time and wipe the entire area in one AoE and you will curse over the fact that you only do 10% of his dps.
You cannot know that! I have personally Gimped my character for more challenge with no increase (and in fact a potential comparative decrease as you so aptly put) in reward. Op would and some others....judging by this thread a percent of the population greater than 1% might consider using this feature at some point.it would be fairly easy to program and not require much resources from ZoS and could potentially generate more interest from players seeking a challenge which in turn could increase the game population which indirectly put more money in zos' pockets, which could be used to further development if they choose, and makes the game profitable longer meaning we all get to have this virtual world available longer. All of this for designing a slider bar (s) ui and implementing a debuff system using already existing code from in the game. I bet a working beta could be programmed in an afternoon.
The question then becomes is an afternoon of work worth the potential benefits from said system?
Suppose the game has 1,000,000 sub's and only .1% of players like the feature and since the game is B2P only 1% (the whale population) spend additional money. Then you are left with 100 paying customers who appreciate the feature if only 10% of those sub for ESOplus then that is a guaranteed $150 a month (recurring) for an afternoon of programming. Not to mention the other 90% of that pay money in non sub ways and also appreciate the feature. Why not then?
It's much more than an afternoon of work.
Even the "difficulty debuff" that you guys are now proposing (after initially wanting phasing) would require quite a bit of coding, and it would completely wreck group mechanics.
Rewards are just one issue. What happens when one DPS in the group wants to have their difficulty higher and keeps dying because no one else in the group is equipped to deal with them taking so much damage? Or what if someone wants to play on an easier setting? How many difficulty levels should there be? How will we deal with the extremely specific kinds of groups that will inevitably form as a result?
I never supported phasing of players with different buffs...do you want players that eat sweet rolls to be phased different than you? Of course not that's dumb.
You're right to create the code for this from scratch is a fair bit of coding and much more than an afternoon however in an object oriented coding world and with existing systems already coded to build upon that are currently used in this game. It would be very little coding actually required. For instance I already can goto cyrodil and get debuffed in various ways by enemy players. Hey let's link that same mechanic to a slide bar ...voila. Hey guess what there are also slide bars already in the settings menu .... Why don't I use that code voila....done oh let me link the slide bar to my debuff mechanic <types a few lines of code> voila a slide bar that debuffs you...
Oh BTW check this link: http://asolutionaday.com/general/proposed-mmo-pvp-time-delayed-exp-calculator/
Which demonstrates making slide bars and linking them to mathematical calculations...that took about 30 minutes of actual work beyond developing the formulas behind the numbers. I know a little bit about doing this and I doubt it would take a ZoS programmer more than an afternoon to complete if the go ahead was given.
Reference group mechanics a simple slide bar can simply be unslid for groups by players voluntarily or ZoS could toggle it such that the debuff only functions while solo. Again not difficult to program an if then else logic to determine that (maybe 7 lines of code right there...) And zos can completely prevent it from impacting groups (if they choose) I prefer it be left up to players to responsibly use but if that fails it can be forced.
As far as how many levels just do a range that goes from current build (default is the easiest Zos wants it to be) and scale it up to impossible ...make it a percent difficulty increase 0-100 and let players slide to their hearts content...you're making this out to be much more difficult than it actually needs to be.My new startup social network for Theorycrafting
Champion Point Calculators
Sharable samples:
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Warrior.htm?ba=5&bl=&e=12&ha=10&he=&l=&m=&n=5&q=20&r=15&s=15&t=18
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Thief.htm?a=5&b=22&d=2&e=18&h=8&ma=0&mo=5&sh=9&sp=19&te=12&tu=13&w=1
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Mage.htm?bla=5&ble=1&bo=6&ele=2&elf=3&h=7&m=9&pi=10&pr=20&sp=4&st=8&t=400 -
Faugaun✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
Despite your assertions that this is a "different type of MMO", you've actually ignored a lot of the mechanical issues presented by segmenting the population in this way. I know you believe the population is already segmented, but it simply isn't. There aren't people running around experiencing the same content as I am at a totally different level of difficulty (which, by the way, is more than just making things hit harder).
This is a completely unfeasible mechanic in an MMO, and it defeats the very purpose of the game being massively multiplayer. If you want a solo Elder Scrolls experience, you have five fantastic games to choose from. No need to try and make this one of them.
If I want to solo this game, then I will solo this game. That is why, so far, I have experienced almost my entire playthrough - so far, about 100 hours total - solo. This is why the only RL friend I know who also plays this game also plays it solo, and he's played more than I have. Are we not allowed to have fun? Is our "segmented" experience going to rain on your parade in any way?
Tell me - name ONE THING - that would change in your life if my 100 hours of SOLO PLAY were in a context in which I took more damage when enemies hit me. All this time I've been playing 100% solo, segmented, completely detached from what others are doing, completely removed from your experience of the game, and both you and I have been completely oblivious of one another - yes, that's right, you and I have played this game for a total of zero hours together.
And you know what? I AM enjoying the game. Immensely, in fact. As a SINGLE PLAYER GAME, doing virtually no group content, just questing, gearing up, crafting, exploring, finding treasure maps, occasionally asking for help in the /trade section - which just saves me a couple minutes searching google. THAT is the extent of my "multiplayer" experience so far.
So please stop telling me how I am supposed to play this game. I already know how.
The only thing I am requesting is one simple feature which would make MY SOLO EXPERIENCE OF THIS GAME a little bit more challenging, which would IN NO WAY infringe upon your ability to experience it as a multiplayer adventure.
Yes, it would be incredibly easy to implement. I have explained how.
No, it would not "segment" me from the rest of the players, as I am already 100% segmented from all other players except for one colleague from work whom I occasionally (like once every 3 weeks) group with.
It would not affect you or people you play with in any way whatsoever.
And yes, it is entirely possible with a tiny amount of effort from the developers, and far less negativity from condescending naysayers who believe that they somehow know all the secrets about the inner workings of an MMO and the catastrophic effects that one small change would incur.
Changes happen in MMOs ALL THE BLOODY TIME. Literally every. single. patch. something major is changing. Indeed fundamental, revolutionary changes happen on a regular basis in MMOs (did you not know this, or is this your first MMO?)... so you can't tell me that this simple slider which effects only my character will somehow change the entire dynamic of the entire MMO community for all time.
Finally, the "agree to disagree" point is not well taken. I've found that no matter how hard you try, you just can't convince people on the internet about anything, which is why I am getting fed up.
It's like I'm telling you that 2+2=4, then you're going off about the molecular structure of Jupiter to disprove my point.
The game works in the way that calculations and interactions are based on static
IF the difficulty of your experience is altered for you enjoyed, by default EVERYONE who is online when you're online has to play with that difficulty. This presents a problem for you and others
IF they allowed this, what happens is whomever sets the ease or difficulty controls EVERYONE else's experience. You describe wanting something to only alter your character vs the NPC's.
Again, if you change yourself the game has to adjust its calculations to you and everyone else. Unfortunately, when playing in an online world...be instances is the only way to accomplish this so in essence, for solo only, this limits you to changing the difficulty in solo only areas. That's a very small part of the game and a one and done situation.
I know it's hard to comprehend why ZOS can't just change your player only for your benefit but every variable requires server calculations so if not instances, the added millions of calculations for each person who wants what you desire overloads the server.
Yet another person who completely misses the point. Read my post again.
There are NO calculations to do. No NPC tweaking to do. No mobs to adjust. Everything in the entire game world stays EXACTLY as it is.
THE ONLY ASSET IN THE ENTIRE GAME WORLD WHICH WOULD CHANGE WOULD BE MY CHARACTER'S STATS.
If your character casts a buff on himself, does every NPC in the entire game world change for every player on the server?
No, of course it doesn't. It just changes YOUR stats, nobody else's.
If they used this same buff/debuff principle ON MY CHARACTER AND ONLY ON MY CHARACTER to debuff me, NOTHING WOULD CHANGE in the world, in the same way that nothing would change in the game world when you eat a piece of buff food.
Yet another "expert" coming in here with their naysaying condescension who hasn't even bothered to understand the post.
It's getting frustrating now.
I read it all...do you understand how games work when played on a server?
Do you realize that your character is not on your computer nor the world they interact with.
IF your character stats were able to be changed, others would have the same option.
The way your character does damage, takes damage and collide with the world is all based on calculations.
Just making the character stats change are calculations. So in order for you to have this experience, others will also get the option...not just you. I don't want this but you do...so if you and I are hitting the same areas, the game is going to calculate the two different interactions just like it does today BUT your adding another player variable so this doubles the calculations
In order for any change in cause and affect to occur, calculations have to be programmed and then done server side so your gaming experience represents any adjustments.
If your character is to take more damage or have a tougher experience but another chapter has today's experience...the server has to be able to process both simultaneously because unless you're in a solo only instances zone, any other player can collide and different calculations must occur for each collision.
Sorry but this is how server based technology works. Please don't be rude to others because you're not hearing what you want to hear
The server is struggling as is
I'm sorry @NewBlacksmurf I am not understanding your view, could you please clarify the mechanical problems with a player based debuff? I mean suppose we made the debuff a food item ( a slider is better but a food item for explanation). Suppose when I eat a "questionable meat sack" I get sick and it causes my health and stamina to be decreased by 25% for an hour (or any other combination of stats). The extra calculations you refer to are simply a one time calculation that occurs when the change applies and reassigning the stored constants utilized for the other calculations which already occur. This is no more difficult on the server than simply equipping / unequippimg a set of gear. It only impacts your player and those whom your player groups with....and guess what if someone doesn't like how my settings are there are two easy fixes (I can slide my slider and accommodate them or they can find someone else to play with).
Suppose I am cruising along on difficult mode and run into a fight and die a few times....slider down beat the encounter, slider back up....no frustration on my part (well not more than I choose). Noobie players can learn and more advanced players can be required strict adherence to the mechanics.
I still think the difficulty of the mechanics should be increased (and a slider added in) easy mode messing up on mechanics you can still be just fine. Hard mode if you mess up too much you can easily die. The enemy uses the same mechanics now matter what your difficulty but on harder difficulty the mechanics are a range of increases in how punishing they are.
I do not see how you find this to be problematic from a server standpoint a mechanics stand point or even a community standpoint if it is a slider in your options window that can be changed at anytime. Please elaborate your concerns?
Do you understand how food n drink buffs work now?
The same would have to be programmed
The problem isn't with a food debuff but it's with the "slider" ideas. That just can't happen in this type of game because content is either scaled or set. You're desiring a real time customizable experience per player.
Every time the slider is moved a player would have to either log off and back on or completely reload into the world (because the world won't change) so this requires the server to build in "x" amount of calculations per notch on the slider and per player multiplied by however many players are online.
What I'm saying is your idea requires a super computer server and no game with a mega server is running that kinda juice. Also the cou and ram requirements to up exponentially with this idea so again....nope
Edit. All this considering any other player will change your slider once they hit anything your engaged in combat with. Human nature is when someone is struggling others come to help so the MMO structure prevents any of this unless you're in a solo only instance.
As far as rewards...NO. Rewards should not be given for this idea. The reward is survival
So you have to log on and off each time your armor is equipped? Or each time you eat food? Or anytime your stats change? That's all this is, a simple stat change, no relog required, no complex calculations a one time logic activated on change.
Player adjusts bar
Base stats are calculated through the defuff
Calculated variables are stored
Stored calculated variables are used for live calculations...
Its not that complicated or intensive on the servers ....no more so than current combat calculations.
Do you propose we only allow players to change their equipment once per hour to help the servers? Again its fairly simple...how about we focus on the idea itself and let ZoS evaluate how difficult it is to code and if it is worth the effort?
My new startup social network for Theorycrafting
Champion Point Calculators
Sharable samples:
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Warrior.htm?ba=5&bl=&e=12&ha=10&he=&l=&m=&n=5&q=20&r=15&s=15&t=18
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Thief.htm?a=5&b=22&d=2&e=18&h=8&ma=0&mo=5&sh=9&sp=19&te=12&tu=13&w=1
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Mage.htm?bla=5&ble=1&bo=6&ele=2&elf=3&h=7&m=9&pi=10&pr=20&sp=4&st=8&t=400 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
Despite your assertions that this is a "different type of MMO", you've actually ignored a lot of the mechanical issues presented by segmenting the population in this way. I know you believe the population is already segmented, but it simply isn't. There aren't people running around experiencing the same content as I am at a totally different level of difficulty (which, by the way, is more than just making things hit harder).
This is a completely unfeasible mechanic in an MMO, and it defeats the very purpose of the game being massively multiplayer. If you want a solo Elder Scrolls experience, you have five fantastic games to choose from. No need to try and make this one of them.
If I want to solo this game, then I will solo this game. That is why, so far, I have experienced almost my entire playthrough - so far, about 100 hours total - solo. This is why the only RL friend I know who also plays this game also plays it solo, and he's played more than I have. Are we not allowed to have fun? Is our "segmented" experience going to rain on your parade in any way?
Tell me - name ONE THING - that would change in your life if my 100 hours of SOLO PLAY were in a context in which I took more damage when enemies hit me. All this time I've been playing 100% solo, segmented, completely detached from what others are doing, completely removed from your experience of the game, and both you and I have been completely oblivious of one another - yes, that's right, you and I have played this game for a total of zero hours together.
And you know what? I AM enjoying the game. Immensely, in fact. As a SINGLE PLAYER GAME, doing virtually no group content, just questing, gearing up, crafting, exploring, finding treasure maps, occasionally asking for help in the /trade section - which just saves me a couple minutes searching google. THAT is the extent of my "multiplayer" experience so far.
So please stop telling me how I am supposed to play this game. I already know how.
The only thing I am requesting is one simple feature which would make MY SOLO EXPERIENCE OF THIS GAME a little bit more challenging, which would IN NO WAY infringe upon your ability to experience it as a multiplayer adventure.
Yes, it would be incredibly easy to implement. I have explained how.
No, it would not "segment" me from the rest of the players, as I am already 100% segmented from all other players except for one colleague from work whom I occasionally (like once every 3 weeks) group with.
It would not affect you or people you play with in any way whatsoever.
And yes, it is entirely possible with a tiny amount of effort from the developers, and far less negativity from condescending naysayers who believe that they somehow know all the secrets about the inner workings of an MMO and the catastrophic effects that one small change would incur.
Changes happen in MMOs ALL THE BLOODY TIME. Literally every. single. patch. something major is changing. Indeed fundamental, revolutionary changes happen on a regular basis in MMOs (did you not know this, or is this your first MMO?)... so you can't tell me that this simple slider which effects only my character will somehow change the entire dynamic of the entire MMO community for all time.
Finally, the "agree to disagree" point is not well taken. I've found that no matter how hard you try, you just can't convince people on the internet about anything, which is why I am getting fed up.
It's like I'm telling you that 2+2=4, then you're going off about the molecular structure of Jupiter to disprove my point.
The game works in the way that calculations and interactions are based on static
IF the difficulty of your experience is altered for you enjoyed, by default EVERYONE who is online when you're online has to play with that difficulty. This presents a problem for you and others
IF they allowed this, what happens is whomever sets the ease or difficulty controls EVERYONE else's experience. You describe wanting something to only alter your character vs the NPC's.
Again, if you change yourself the game has to adjust its calculations to you and everyone else. Unfortunately, when playing in an online world...be instances is the only way to accomplish this so in essence, for solo only, this limits you to changing the difficulty in solo only areas. That's a very small part of the game and a one and done situation.
I know it's hard to comprehend why ZOS can't just change your player only for your benefit but every variable requires server calculations so if not instances, the added millions of calculations for each person who wants what you desire overloads the server.
Yet another person who completely misses the point. Read my post again.
There are NO calculations to do. No NPC tweaking to do. No mobs to adjust. Everything in the entire game world stays EXACTLY as it is.
THE ONLY ASSET IN THE ENTIRE GAME WORLD WHICH WOULD CHANGE WOULD BE MY CHARACTER'S STATS.
If your character casts a buff on himself, does every NPC in the entire game world change for every player on the server?
No, of course it doesn't. It just changes YOUR stats, nobody else's.
If they used this same buff/debuff principle ON MY CHARACTER AND ONLY ON MY CHARACTER to debuff me, NOTHING WOULD CHANGE in the world, in the same way that nothing would change in the game world when you eat a piece of buff food.
Yet another "expert" coming in here with their naysaying condescension who hasn't even bothered to understand the post.
It's getting frustrating now.
I read it all...do you understand how games work when played on a server?
Do you realize that your character is not on your computer nor the world they interact with.
IF your character stats were able to be changed, others would have the same option.
The way your character does damage, takes damage and collide with the world is all based on calculations.
Just making the character stats change are calculations. So in order for you to have this experience, others will also get the option...not just you. I don't want this but you do...so if you and I are hitting the same areas, the game is going to calculate the two different interactions just like it does today BUT your adding another player variable so this doubles the calculations
In order for any change in cause and affect to occur, calculations have to be programmed and then done server side so your gaming experience represents any adjustments.
If your character is to take more damage or have a tougher experience but another chapter has today's experience...the server has to be able to process both simultaneously because unless you're in a solo only instances zone, any other player can collide and different calculations must occur for each collision.
Sorry but this is how server based technology works. Please don't be rude to others because you're not hearing what you want to hear
The server is struggling as is
I'm sorry @NewBlacksmurf I am not understanding your view, could you please clarify the mechanical problems with a player based debuff? I mean suppose we made the debuff a food item ( a slider is better but a food item for explanation). Suppose when I eat a "questionable meat sack" I get sick and it causes my health and stamina to be decreased by 25% for an hour (or any other combination of stats). The extra calculations you refer to are simply a one time calculation that occurs when the change applies and reassigning the stored constants utilized for the other calculations which already occur. This is no more difficult on the server than simply equipping / unequippimg a set of gear. It only impacts your player and those whom your player groups with....and guess what if someone doesn't like how my settings are there are two easy fixes (I can slide my slider and accommodate them or they can find someone else to play with).
Suppose I am cruising along on difficult mode and run into a fight and die a few times....slider down beat the encounter, slider back up....no frustration on my part (well not more than I choose). Noobie players can learn and more advanced players can be required strict adherence to the mechanics.
I still think the difficulty of the mechanics should be increased (and a slider added in) easy mode messing up on mechanics you can still be just fine. Hard mode if you mess up too much you can easily die. The enemy uses the same mechanics now matter what your difficulty but on harder difficulty the mechanics are a range of increases in how punishing they are.
I do not see how you find this to be problematic from a server standpoint a mechanics stand point or even a community standpoint if it is a slider in your options window that can be changed at anytime. Please elaborate your concerns?
Do you understand how food n drink buffs work now?
The same would have to be programmed
The problem isn't with a food debuff but it's with the "slider" ideas. That just can't happen in this type of game because content is either scaled or set. You're desiring a real time customizable experience per player.
Every time the slider is moved a player would have to either log off and back on or completely reload into the world (because the world won't change) so this requires the server to build in "x" amount of calculations per notch on the slider and per player multiplied by however many players are online.
What I'm saying is your idea requires a super computer server and no game with a mega server is running that kinda juice. Also the cou and ram requirements to up exponentially with this idea so again....nope
Edit. All this considering any other player will change your slider once they hit anything your engaged in combat with. Human nature is when someone is struggling others come to help so the MMO structure prevents any of this unless you're in a solo only instance.
As far as rewards...NO. Rewards should not be given for this idea. The reward is survival
So you have to log on and off each time your armor is equipped? Or each time you eat food? Or anytime your stats change? That's all this is, a simple stat change, no relog required, no complex calculations a one time logic activated on change.
Player adjusts bar
Base stats are calculated through the defuff
Calculated variables are stored
Stored calculated variables are used for live calculations...
Its not that complicated or intensive on the servers ....no more so than current combat calculations.
Do you propose we only allow players to change their equipment once per hour to help the servers? Again its fairly simple...how about we focus on the idea itself and let ZoS evaluate how difficult it is to code and if it is worth the effort?
I was honestly trying to share why this doesn't fit into an MMO world but your last comment is just arguing.
I see many other forums comments as well giving more technical explanations
Always consider that if the player gains control of constantly altering their world (outside of the static) then extra coding and calculations server side are required. There is literally no way for "one" person to alter their difficulty in an MMO unless that player is instances out of the world. This is where the loading comes in as you're leaving the norm and loading a different phase, calculation, coding......which has nothing to do with changing weapons, armor, food buffs, stats or skills.
You're literally asking for the game to take the static information and caculate different result for you only based on a "slider" BUT also calculate any other unique players "slider" or non-"slider" settings in a world
IF YOU change your game with a slider there are others that will do the same. It doesn't matter if it's a lot of just one other person. This idea requires options for all...it's not just about you. You have to let go of the "me" thought process. It's not about "your" experience but instead about EVERYONEs experience.
Your idea requires everyone's preferences to be calculated simultaneously as you forget that what you see isn't everything. Phasing is also happening so while you perceive it's just you, there are others always around you at different stages of quests.
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]Edited by ZOS_UlyssesW on April 19, 2015 6:27PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭newtinmpls wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
Even the "difficulty debuff" that you guys are now proposing (after initially wanting phasing) would require quite a bit of coding, and it would completely wreck group mechanics.
Rewards are just one issue. What happens when one DPS in the group wants to have their difficulty higher and keeps dying because no one else in the group is equipped to deal with them taking so much damage? Or what if someone wants to play on an easier setting? How many difficulty levels should there be? How will we deal with the extremely specific kinds of groups that will inevitably form as a result?
Two issues.
1-How hard is this, really? Take a five point scale, and compare it to the standardized buffs/debuffs in the game. So we'd have 1-Major Difficulty (say 25% harder less damage given & 25% more damage taken & +25% EP/XP), 2-Minor Difficulty (10%), 3-Standard, 4-Minor Ease/Blessing (-10% to all of those mentioned), 5-Major Ease/Blessing (-25%)
2-Have the difficulty slider in a group scale to the group leader AND DISPLAY so that people can immediately agree/disagree or negotiate.
1. Again, the difficulty is not necessarily in implementing the debuff. Although anyone who thinks that difficulty equates to damage taken and damage given is deluding themselves, but that's a different debate.
2. That sounds like it would work great. Players are already fantastic at negotiating in a calm and reasoned manner. It would only be made easier by adding five different difficulty settings to the game, each of which affected XP gain and rewards.----
Murray?0 -
Faugaun✭✭✭✭✭OK where to start:
First, I will ignore the parts irrelevant to the conversationAlways consider that if the player gains control of constantly altering their world (outside of the static) then extra coding and calculations server side are required.
How do you think that this occurs? There are live calculations and stored calculations. For instance when you equip a ring that increases your magicka by x amount the tool tip is updated. Now hopefully those calculated values are then stored as variables with all the precalculation work done. Then when you're in combat it simply takes the damage value of your skill calculates that against the targets mitigation (which is already precalculated, hopefully). The result is a simple integer calculation (hopefully when the variable was stored it was stored without floating point values. This live calculation is minimally taxing on a solar powered calculator from the 80's...much less on a microprocessor from today. You seem caught up on the mass amount of calculations when in reality this slide bar simply modifies the precalculated number which remains a fixed stored variable used in the live calculations. This is in effect about as processor intensive as swapping your gear set.There is literally no way for "one" person to alter their difficulty in an MMO unless that player is instances out of the world. This is where the loading comes in as you're leaving the norm and loading a different phase, calculation, coding......which has nothing to do with changing weapons, armor, food buffs, stats or skills.
Wait, so if I wear light armor and then swap to heavy armor the amount of damage I take has not changed? This has everything to do with stats.....its a simple slide bar that debuffs your stats example "minus 25% to health, stamina and magicka, and minus 10% to health stamina and magicka regen" it is a slide bar that modifies stats thereby modifying difficulty. Same thing occurs when you eat sweetrolls your stats are increased by x amount.You're literally asking for the game to take the static information and caculate different result for you only based on a "slider"
Doesn't the game already do this for eso plus members, when someone eats or drinks a food or beverage, or when they use a potion? Last time I checked someone with different stats took different damage, dealt different damage etc... From every other player in the vicinity bases on their individual stats....BUT also calculate any other unique players "slider" or non-"slider" settings in a world
Again the game already does this...IF YOU change your game with a slider there are others that will do the same. It doesn't matter if it's a lot of just one other person. This idea requires options for all...it's not just about you. You have to let go of the "me" thought process. It's not about "your" experience but instead about EVERYONEs experience.
Right and it is about everyone being able to customize their experience to how they like it while not impacting others....Your idea requires everyone's preferences to be calculated simultaneously as you forget that what you see isn't everything. Phasing is also happening so while you perceive it's just you, there are others always around you at different stages of quests.
No they are precalculated, stored as variable (which should already occur) then the stored calculated variables are utilized in live calculations during combat etc...same as already occurs. This means that the precalculation which stores the variable is equivalent to equipping or unequipping gear (as far as changes go) because the change occurs...then it is stored and those same stored variables are called for the more frequently changing combat situations without needing to recalculate the buff/debuff for each combat action.
As far as phasing...yeah i realize there are lotsnof players and if 10k players are on one segment of a megaserver adding an action is actually adding 10,000 actions. I also realize that this action occurs about as frequently as swapping gear and has about the same level of processing requirements. It doesn't need to be done every time you mash a button....
Hopefully it is a little more clear now?
Edited by Faugaun on April 19, 2015 4:09PMMy new startup social network for Theorycrafting
Champion Point Calculators
Sharable samples:
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Warrior.htm?ba=5&bl=&e=12&ha=10&he=&l=&m=&n=5&q=20&r=15&s=15&t=18
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Thief.htm?a=5&b=22&d=2&e=18&h=8&ma=0&mo=5&sh=9&sp=19&te=12&tu=13&w=1
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Mage.htm?bla=5&ble=1&bo=6&ele=2&elf=3&h=7&m=9&pi=10&pr=20&sp=4&st=8&t=401 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Gotta say I'm quite fond of your unrelenting cynicism and curmudgeon-ly-ness.nerevarine1138 wrote: »
1. Again, the difficulty is not necessarily in implementing the debuff. Although anyone who thinks that difficulty equates to damage taken and damage given is deluding themselves, but that's a different debate.
2. That sounds like it would work great. Players are already fantastic at negotiating in a calm and reasoned manner. It would only be made easier by adding five different difficulty settings to the game, each of which affected XP gain and rewards.
1-since they have added the Major/minor this-n-that various debuffs, I figured that it would be no great shakes to add a variation on it to attach to a difficulty slider. It's just adapting something that they already did (and sounds like it wasn't easy, so I hit on it to avoid asking for the wheel to be re-invented).
2-After I stopped chuckling, I have to say that I think this will be both harder and easier than you think. In zone chat instead of just "looking for DPS v10-14 for Spindleclutch" it would now be "looking for DPS c10-14 for Spindleclutch 5/hard; wussies need not apply" which would potentially add to immersion.
YMMVTenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis2 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭newtinmpls wrote: »Gotta say I'm quite fond of your unrelenting cynicism and curmudgeon-ly-ness.nerevarine1138 wrote: »
1. Again, the difficulty is not necessarily in implementing the debuff. Although anyone who thinks that difficulty equates to damage taken and damage given is deluding themselves, but that's a different debate.
2. That sounds like it would work great. Players are already fantastic at negotiating in a calm and reasoned manner. It would only be made easier by adding five different difficulty settings to the game, each of which affected XP gain and rewards.
1-since they have added the Major/minor this-n-that various debuffs, I figured that it would be no great shakes to add a variation on it to attach to a difficulty slider. It's just adapting something that they already did (and sounds like it wasn't easy, so I hit on it to avoid asking for the wheel to be re-invented).
2-After I stopped chuckling, I have to say that I think this will be both harder and easier than you think. In zone chat instead of just "looking for DPS v10-14 for Spindleclutch" it would now be "looking for DPS c10-14 for Spindleclutch 5/hard; wussies need not apply" which would potentially add to immersion.
YMMV
And again, if you think that will go well, you should talk to all the twinks in WoW who cried and cried until they finally got Blizzard to allow frozen XP. They got their own battlegrounds, and they had no players in them. Because no one really plays that way. It's only a tiny subset of the population.
Sorting the population into 5 distinct groups would make it nearly impossible to get people together for a dungeon run.
----
Murray?0 -
Necrelios✭✭✭✭✭@nerevarine1138 RIFT is an MMO with a difficulty slider almost exactly like the OP suggests. There are some others as well that provide a debuff feature. It's actually fairly simple to implement as it's a mechanic already in the game.Terms & Conditions ["We revoke permission to fictional legal constructs or private/public persons for selling of any private data, censorship, surveillance, personage or conversion as a trespass of law. We prohibit the practice of "procedural law" or corporate statues in place of divine law."]1 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »
Sorting the population into 5 distinct groups would make it nearly impossible to get people together for a dungeon run.
Not 5 groups; this isn't like an alliance that's permanent to a character. This would be a slider that folks could adjust if needed/desired and then reload UI.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis1 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭newtinmpls wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
Sorting the population into 5 distinct groups would make it nearly impossible to get people together for a dungeon run.
Not 5 groups; this isn't like an alliance that's permanent to a character. This would be a slider that folks could adjust if needed/desired and then reload UI.
Doesn't matter if it's permanent or not. You're creating 5 different "tiers" of dungeon groups.@nerevarine1138 RIFT is an MMO with a difficulty slider almost exactly like the OP suggests. There are some others as well that provide a debuff feature. It's actually fairly simple to implement as it's a mechanic already in the game.
How's Rift doing these days?
----
Murray?0 -
Necrelios✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »newtinmpls wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
Sorting the population into 5 distinct groups would make it nearly impossible to get people together for a dungeon run.
Not 5 groups; this isn't like an alliance that's permanent to a character. This would be a slider that folks could adjust if needed/desired and then reload UI.
Doesn't matter if it's permanent or not. You're creating 5 different "tiers" of dungeon groups.@nerevarine1138 RIFT is an MMO with a difficulty slider almost exactly like the OP suggests. There are some others as well that provide a debuff feature. It's actually fairly simple to implement as it's a mechanic already in the game.
How's Rift doing these days?
Not good, mostly due to the grind system implementation and server lag issues (lag issues that have been around since beta). Sounds familiar actually ;-)Edited by Necrelios on April 19, 2015 5:26PMTerms & Conditions ["We revoke permission to fictional legal constructs or private/public persons for selling of any private data, censorship, surveillance, personage or conversion as a trespass of law. We prohibit the practice of "procedural law" or corporate statues in place of divine law."]0 -
Look when the game was more difficult everyone complained.. They made it easier.
If you want things to be more challenging make a bunch of poison potions and drink them every time they are off timer...0 -
There is no point in ZoS wasting time developing this slider for the very few people who would use it.
I would rather they spend time creating new content to explore.1 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »
Doesn't matter if it's permanent or not. You're creating 5 different "tiers" of dungeon groups.
Yup, which I see as an advantage.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis0 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OK where to start:
First, I will ignore the parts irrelevant to the conversationAlways consider that if the player gains control of constantly altering their world (outside of the static) then extra coding and calculations server side are required.
How do you think that this occurs? There are live calculations and stored calculations. For instance when you equip a ring that increases your magicka by x amount the tool tip is updated. Now hopefully those calculated values are then stored as variables with all the precalculation work done. Then when you're in combat it simply takes the damage value of your skill calculates that against the targets mitigation (which is already precalculated, hopefully). The result is a simple integer calculation (hopefully when the variable was stored it was stored without floating point values. This live calculation is minimally taxing on a solar powered calculator from the 80's...much less on a microprocessor from today. You seem caught up on the mass amount of calculations when in reality this slide bar simply modifies the precalculated number which remains a fixed stored variable used in the live calculations. This is in effect about as processor intensive as swapping your gear set.There is literally no way for "one" person to alter their difficulty in an MMO unless that player is instances out of the world. This is where the loading comes in as you're leaving the norm and loading a different phase, calculation, coding......which has nothing to do with changing weapons, armor, food buffs, stats or skills.
Wait, so if I wear light armor and then swap to heavy armor the amount of damage I take has not changed? This has everything to do with stats.....its a simple slide bar that debuffs your stats example "minus 25% to health, stamina and magicka, and minus 10% to health stamina and magicka regen" it is a slide bar that modifies stats thereby modifying difficulty. Same thing occurs when you eat sweetrolls your stats are increased by x amount.You're literally asking for the game to take the static information and caculate different result for you only based on a "slider"
Doesn't the game already do this for eso plus members, when someone eats or drinks a food or beverage, or when they use a potion? Last time I checked someone with different stats took different damage, dealt different damage etc... From every other player in the vicinity bases on their individual stats....BUT also calculate any other unique players "slider" or non-"slider" settings in a world
Again the game already does this...IF YOU change your game with a slider there are others that will do the same. It doesn't matter if it's a lot of just one other person. This idea requires options for all...it's not just about you. You have to let go of the "me" thought process. It's not about "your" experience but instead about EVERYONEs experience.
Right and it is about everyone being able to customize their experience to how they like it while not impacting others....Your idea requires everyone's preferences to be calculated simultaneously as you forget that what you see isn't everything. Phasing is also happening so while you perceive it's just you, there are others always around you at different stages of quests.
No they are precalculated, stored as variable (which should already occur) then the stored calculated variables are utilized in live calculations during combat etc...same as already occurs. This means that the precalculation which stores the variable is equivalent to equipping or unequipping gear (as far as changes go) because the change occurs...then it is stored and those same stored variables are called for the more frequently changing combat situations without needing to recalculate the buff/debuff for each combat action.
As far as phasing...yeah i realize there are lotsnof players and if 10k players are on one segment of a megaserver adding an action is actually adding 10,000 actions. I also realize that this action occurs about as frequently as swapping gear and has about the same level of processing requirements. It doesn't need to be done every time you mash a button....
Hopefully it is a little more clear now?
You're just arguing to argue. Or rather now trolling.
This isn't even as constructive conversation as its all centered around "you"
The MMO type is centered around "us" experiences as the world is interactive all at the same time. You're suggesting something that can only apply to online multiplayer games rather than MMO games which is a big difference.
It's never been unclear to me what you're idea is. Trying to explain it differently doesn't make it any more possible or likely.
-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
Faugaun✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »OK where to start:
First, I will ignore the parts irrelevant to the conversationAlways consider that if the player gains control of constantly altering their world (outside of the static) then extra coding and calculations server side are required.
How do you think that this occurs? There are live calculations and stored calculations. For instance when you equip a ring that increases your magicka by x amount the tool tip is updated. Now hopefully those calculated values are then stored as variables with all the precalculation work done. Then when you're in combat it simply takes the damage value of your skill calculates that against the targets mitigation (which is already precalculated, hopefully). The result is a simple integer calculation (hopefully when the variable was stored it was stored without floating point values. This live calculation is minimally taxing on a solar powered calculator from the 80's...much less on a microprocessor from today. You seem caught up on the mass amount of calculations when in reality this slide bar simply modifies the precalculated number which remains a fixed stored variable used in the live calculations. This is in effect about as processor intensive as swapping your gear set.There is literally no way for "one" person to alter their difficulty in an MMO unless that player is instances out of the world. This is where the loading comes in as you're leaving the norm and loading a different phase, calculation, coding......which has nothing to do with changing weapons, armor, food buffs, stats or skills.
Wait, so if I wear light armor and then swap to heavy armor the amount of damage I take has not changed? This has everything to do with stats.....its a simple slide bar that debuffs your stats example "minus 25% to health, stamina and magicka, and minus 10% to health stamina and magicka regen" it is a slide bar that modifies stats thereby modifying difficulty. Same thing occurs when you eat sweetrolls your stats are increased by x amount.You're literally asking for the game to take the static information and caculate different result for you only based on a "slider"
Doesn't the game already do this for eso plus members, when someone eats or drinks a food or beverage, or when they use a potion? Last time I checked someone with different stats took different damage, dealt different damage etc... From every other player in the vicinity bases on their individual stats....BUT also calculate any other unique players "slider" or non-"slider" settings in a world
Again the game already does this...IF YOU change your game with a slider there are others that will do the same. It doesn't matter if it's a lot of just one other person. This idea requires options for all...it's not just about you. You have to let go of the "me" thought process. It's not about "your" experience but instead about EVERYONEs experience.
Right and it is about everyone being able to customize their experience to how they like it while not impacting others....Your idea requires everyone's preferences to be calculated simultaneously as you forget that what you see isn't everything. Phasing is also happening so while you perceive it's just you, there are others always around you at different stages of quests.
No they are precalculated, stored as variable (which should already occur) then the stored calculated variables are utilized in live calculations during combat etc...same as already occurs. This means that the precalculation which stores the variable is equivalent to equipping or unequipping gear (as far as changes go) because the change occurs...then it is stored and those same stored variables are called for the more frequently changing combat situations without needing to recalculate the buff/debuff for each combat action.
As far as phasing...yeah i realize there are lotsnof players and if 10k players are on one segment of a megaserver adding an action is actually adding 10,000 actions. I also realize that this action occurs about as frequently as swapping gear and has about the same level of processing requirements. It doesn't need to be done every time you mash a button....
Hopefully it is a little more clear now?
You're just arguing to argue. Or rather now trolling.
This isn't even as constructive conversation as its all centered around "you"
The MMO type is centered around "us" experiences as the world is interactive all at the same time. You're suggesting something that can only apply to online multiplayer games rather than MMO games which is a big difference.
It's never been unclear to me what you're idea is. Trying to explain it differently doesn't make it any more possible or likely.
@NewBlacksmurf I don't know where you're getting any of this from.....are you blending my posts and someone else's posts together? Is this your defacto response when confronted with information? Listen when you wanna stop bashing people and start talking points I am open ears until then I am done conversing with you as it is obviously non productive.My new startup social network for Theorycrafting
Champion Point Calculators
Sharable samples:
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Warrior.htm?ba=5&bl=&e=12&ha=10&he=&l=&m=&n=5&q=20&r=15&s=15&t=18
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Thief.htm?a=5&b=22&d=2&e=18&h=8&ma=0&mo=5&sh=9&sp=19&te=12&tu=13&w=1
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Mage.htm?bla=5&ble=1&bo=6&ele=2&elf=3&h=7&m=9&pi=10&pr=20&sp=4&st=8&t=400 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »The MMO type is centered around "us" experiences as the world is interactive all at the same time. You're suggesting something that can only apply to online multiplayer games rather than MMO games which is a big difference.
?? I really don't understand this objection. The difference between the two would be.... ?Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis0 -
Dahveed✭✭✭✭✭
✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
Despite your assertions that this is a "different type of MMO", you've actually ignored a lot of the mechanical issues presented by segmenting the population in this way. I know you believe the population is already segmented, but it simply isn't. There aren't people running around experiencing the same content as I am at a totally different level of difficulty (which, by the way, is more than just making things hit harder).
This is a completely unfeasible mechanic in an MMO, and it defeats the very purpose of the game being massively multiplayer. If you want a solo Elder Scrolls experience, you have five fantastic games to choose from. No need to try and make this one of them.
If I want to solo this game, then I will solo this game. That is why, so far, I have experienced almost my entire playthrough - so far, about 100 hours total - solo. This is why the only RL friend I know who also plays this game also plays it solo, and he's played more than I have. Are we not allowed to have fun? Is our "segmented" experience going to rain on your parade in any way?
Tell me - name ONE THING - that would change in your life if my 100 hours of SOLO PLAY were in a context in which I took more damage when enemies hit me. All this time I've been playing 100% solo, segmented, completely detached from what others are doing, completely removed from your experience of the game, and both you and I have been completely oblivious of one another - yes, that's right, you and I have played this game for a total of zero hours together.
And you know what? I AM enjoying the game. Immensely, in fact. As a SINGLE PLAYER GAME, doing virtually no group content, just questing, gearing up, crafting, exploring, finding treasure maps, occasionally asking for help in the /trade section - which just saves me a couple minutes searching google. THAT is the extent of my "multiplayer" experience so far.
So please stop telling me how I am supposed to play this game. I already know how.
The only thing I am requesting is one simple feature which would make MY SOLO EXPERIENCE OF THIS GAME a little bit more challenging, which would IN NO WAY infringe upon your ability to experience it as a multiplayer adventure.
Yes, it would be incredibly easy to implement. I have explained how.
No, it would not "segment" me from the rest of the players, as I am already 100% segmented from all other players except for one colleague from work whom I occasionally (like once every 3 weeks) group with.
It would not affect you or people you play with in any way whatsoever.
And yes, it is entirely possible with a tiny amount of effort from the developers, and far less negativity from condescending naysayers who believe that they somehow know all the secrets about the inner workings of an MMO and the catastrophic effects that one small change would incur.
Changes happen in MMOs ALL THE BLOODY TIME. Literally every. single. patch. something major is changing. Indeed fundamental, revolutionary changes happen on a regular basis in MMOs (did you not know this, or is this your first MMO?)... so you can't tell me that this simple slider which effects only my character will somehow change the entire dynamic of the entire MMO community for all time.
Finally, the "agree to disagree" point is not well taken. I've found that no matter how hard you try, you just can't convince people on the internet about anything, which is why I am getting fed up.
It's like I'm telling you that 2+2=4, then you're going off about the molecular structure of Jupiter to disprove my point.
The game works in the way that calculations and interactions are based on static
IF the difficulty of your experience is altered for you enjoyed, by default EVERYONE who is online when you're online has to play with that difficulty. This presents a problem for you and others
IF they allowed this, what happens is whomever sets the ease or difficulty controls EVERYONE else's experience. You describe wanting something to only alter your character vs the NPC's.
Again, if you change yourself the game has to adjust its calculations to you and everyone else. Unfortunately, when playing in an online world...be instances is the only way to accomplish this so in essence, for solo only, this limits you to changing the difficulty in solo only areas. That's a very small part of the game and a one and done situation.
I know it's hard to comprehend why ZOS can't just change your player only for your benefit but every variable requires server calculations so if not instances, the added millions of calculations for each person who wants what you desire overloads the server.
Yet another person who completely misses the point. Read my post again.
There are NO calculations to do. No NPC tweaking to do. No mobs to adjust. Everything in the entire game world stays EXACTLY as it is.
THE ONLY ASSET IN THE ENTIRE GAME WORLD WHICH WOULD CHANGE WOULD BE MY CHARACTER'S STATS.
If your character casts a buff on himself, does every NPC in the entire game world change for every player on the server?
No, of course it doesn't. It just changes YOUR stats, nobody else's.
If they used this same buff/debuff principle ON MY CHARACTER AND ONLY ON MY CHARACTER to debuff me, NOTHING WOULD CHANGE in the world, in the same way that nothing would change in the game world when you eat a piece of buff food.
Yet another "expert" coming in here with their naysaying condescension who hasn't even bothered to understand the post.
It's getting frustrating now.
I read it all...do you understand how games work when played on a server?
Do you realize that your character is not on your computer nor the world they interact with.
IF your character stats were able to be changed, others would have the same option.
The way your character does damage, takes damage and collide with the world is all based on calculations.
Just making the character stats change are calculations. So in order for you to have this experience, others will also get the option...not just you. I don't want this but you do...so if you and I are hitting the same areas, the game is going to calculate the two different interactions just like it does today BUT your adding another player variable so this doubles the calculations
In order for any change in cause and affect to occur, calculations have to be programmed and then done server side so your gaming experience represents any adjustments.
If your character is to take more damage or have a tougher experience but another chapter has today's experience...the server has to be able to process both simultaneously because unless you're in a solo only instances zone, any other player can collide and different calculations must occur for each collision.
Sorry but this is how server based technology works. Please don't be rude to others because you're not hearing what you want to hear
The server is struggling as is
You seem like you're trying REALLY hard to overthink this, so I'll make it simple.
Right now, there is one calculation that the game does to figure out how much damage I take.
If I had an increased damage debuff... there would be precisely ONE more calculation to do. Damage times two.
Are you saying that taking a number and multiplying it by two is beyond the technological capabilities of ZOS?
Why is it that every time I enter an anchor battle in which 4-5 other players have buffs or debuffs, the servers don't melt?
Probably because it's just one tiny calculation amongst 8,000,000,000 other calculations that the game is doing simultaneously.
I'm terribly sorry but your theory that somehow changing one multiplier would somehow crash the entire system is just laughable.
0 -
Dahveed✭✭✭✭✭
✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »God, it's so easy it's mind-boggling. Yet the naysayers will keep coming to threads like these with their condescending "expertise" about how complex an MMO is and how everyone's head would explode if my character had a simple debuff placed on him.
I just don't get it.
It's not about complex MMO blah blah. It's the fact that a system like yours would be situational and only used by a few.
How many players would willingly gimp their character in relation to everyone running about around them? Than add the lack of actual benefits from being a gimp. You wont even get the immersion bit, because the other guys doing the same quest still 2 shots everything like demi-gods. You will also get less exp and loot, because your dps cant keep up with others in the area hunting the same things. Ever tried doing a dolmen in 1.6.5 not solo? Half the mobs or more die so fast you're not getting any exp.
Considering those things, a debuff like this would only function well for solo exclusive instances, but those could already have their own scaling or slider. I guess you could activate it early morning or night when no one around for some nice solo game play, but again that's situational. One guy can show up any time and wipe the entire area in one AoE and you will curse over the fact that you only do 10% of his dps.
You cannot know that! I have personally Gimped my character for more challenge with no increase (and in fact a potential comparative decrease as you so aptly put) in reward. Op would and some others....judging by this thread a percent of the population greater than 1% might consider using this feature at some point.it would be fairly easy to program and not require much resources from ZoS and could potentially generate more interest from players seeking a challenge which in turn could increase the game population which indirectly put more money in zos' pockets, which could be used to further development if they choose, and makes the game profitable longer meaning we all get to have this virtual world available longer. All of this for designing a slider bar (s) ui and implementing a debuff system using already existing code from in the game. I bet a working beta could be programmed in an afternoon.
The question then becomes is an afternoon of work worth the potential benefits from said system?
Suppose the game has 1,000,000 sub's and only .1% of players like the feature and since the game is B2P only 1% (the whale population) spend additional money. Then you are left with 100 paying customers who appreciate the feature if only 10% of those sub for ESOplus then that is a guaranteed $150 a month (recurring) for an afternoon of programming. Not to mention the other 90% of that pay money in non sub ways and also appreciate the feature. Why not then?
It's much more than an afternoon of work.
Even the "difficulty debuff" that you guys are now proposing (after initially wanting phasing) would require quite a bit of coding, and it would completely wreck group mechanics.
Rewards are just one issue. What happens when one DPS in the group wants to have their difficulty higher and keeps dying because no one else in the group is equipped to deal with them taking so much damage? Or what if someone wants to play on an easier setting? How many difficulty levels should there be? How will we deal with the extremely specific kinds of groups that will inevitably form as a result?
It's gotten to the point where you are seemingly purposefully misunderstanding or misrepresenting what we are saying.
1 - Nobody here has EVER suggested that we want phasing. I have repeatedly gone out of my way to correct people who have accused me of wanting this. You are either a) thick or b) disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
2 - The group issue has already been dealt with repeatedly. There are several VERY easy ways to address it (one of which ALREADY EXISTS IN THE GAME), but you keep bringing it up anyway.
3 - I never once suggested anything about rewards. I don't CARE about rewards, I care about the game.
4 - "What if someone wants to play on an easier setting"? - The entire point of this thread is that it's too easy, and we want a HARDER setting.
5 - To deal with "extremely specific types of groups", not sure how "extremely specific" they could possibly get. "LFG grotto hardmode" isn't hard for a player to do. They already have this mechanic in MMOs all over the place. Someone mentioned that indeed it already exists in other games, but I cannot confirm because I haven't played those games.
If nobody joins your group, too bad, you're the one who decided to choose hardmode, you should be willing to wait. I would rather wait an hour for a group to do a dungeon that is challenging and fun then faceroll stupid content. If you just want to get it over with because you're an MMO grinder zombie, fine, leave it on easy mode and you'll get your free win in 15 minutes.0