Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Ratzkifal

And it's official!

A_Silverius

Ratzkifal wrote: »

And it's official!

Bring us the one responsible for this change, we'll feast upon it.

Dalsinthus

Well there it is. Hundreds and hundreds of comments objecting to this and they ignored us. Clear explanations based on lore and game mechanics ignored. This sends a pretty clear message about how little ZOS values player feedback.

MartiniDaniels

ZOS won't see a single cent from me after this.

BlueRaven

And here is the absolutely stupid reasoning behind it;

"Previously if you weren’t able to utilize Stealth, you lost a large portion of effectiveness that Wood Elves provided, so we’ve put the bulk of their power into their flat bonuses to Stamina and recovery. We also wanted to have more of a distinct play pattern on how Wood Elves and Khajiit both engaged with Stealth, so we’ve repurposed Wood Elves’ passive into one that deals with turning their proficiency of Stealth into a proficiency of hunting Stealthed targets. Additionally, since Stealth is not always engaged with at the same rate across the game, we added a small boon to when you activate Roll Dodge to help enhance mobility and offensive turning power in order to slip to safety or reposition for an unexpected attack."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460633/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-3-5-wrathstone-update-21

zyk

I feel very bad for all the players negatively impacted by this. Through my travels in Tamriel after the TG patch, it seems there has always been a Bosmer sneaking around.

I think what ZOS has done here is an ethical violation. Maybe Rich Lambert left his empathy in his pants.

anadandy

BlueRaven wrote: »

And here is the absolutely stupid reasoning behind it;

"Previously if you weren’t able to utilize Stealth, you lost a large portion of effectiveness that Wood Elves provided, so we’ve put the bulk of their power into their flat bonuses to Stamina and recovery. We also wanted to have more of a distinct play pattern on how Wood Elves and Khajiit both engaged with Stealth, so we’ve repurposed Wood Elves’ passive into one that deals with turning their proficiency of Stealth into a proficiency of hunting Stealthed targets. Additionally, since Stealth is not always engaged with at the same rate across the game, we added a small boon to when you activate Roll Dodge to help enhance mobility and offensive turning power in order to slip to safety or reposition for an unexpected attack."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460633/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-3-5-wrathstone-update-21

Total BS. They didn't read a word we said. And still, STILL no comment on stealth detections utter uselessness in PVE

Bladerunner1

max_only wrote: »

Bosmer players: please put back the 3m stealth radius passive. It means a lot to us for several reasons.

Zos and Class Reps:

You parse just as good as everyone else!

Bosmer players:

What if I told you that isn’t the topic of discussion.

Yeah, and they didn't really get Bosmers up any closer to the top parse than before.

MartiniDaniels

Well, just loaded, i got ~ 1000 more stamina, ~ same recovery and 3 free skill points, not bad

MartiniDaniels

https://youtu.be/RYnFIRc0k6E?t=27

Cundu_Ertur

anadandy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

And here is the absolutely stupid reasoning behind it;

"Previously if you weren’t able to utilize Stealth, you lost a large portion of effectiveness that Wood Elves provided, so we’ve put the bulk of their power into their flat bonuses to Stamina and recovery. We also wanted to have more of a distinct play pattern on how Wood Elves and Khajiit both engaged with Stealth, so we’ve repurposed Wood Elves’ passive into one that deals with turning their proficiency of Stealth into a proficiency of hunting Stealthed targets. Additionally, since Stealth is not always engaged with at the same rate across the game, we added a small boon to when you activate Roll Dodge to help enhance mobility and offensive turning power in order to slip to safety or reposition for an unexpected attack."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460633/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-3-5-wrathstone-update-21

Total BS. They didn't read a word we said. And still, STILL no comment on stealth detections utter uselessness in PVE

You know, from some of the hints that the devs and reps have let slip, I suspect there will be a mechanic in an upcoming DLC or chapter that will support stealth detect in PVE. What they do not realize is that it wouldn't matter even then, since 99% of the base game PVE content still makes this a dead passive; and ultimately it is still 100% contrary to lore.

IF the detection bonus was in parallel with a hiding bonus, it would be fine, Bosmer are excellent scouts, hunters, yadda yadda yadda… . But to REPLACE the hiding bonus with the detection bonus IS COMPLETELY LORE BREAKING because it ignores the FACT that in the lore and in every previous iteration of the Elder Scrolls as a franchise BOSMER HAVE BEEN THIEVES. They have never NOT been thieves. The detection bonus without a hiding bonus is NOT a thief skill, IT IS A GUARD SKILL.

The kicker is, there is a race -- and only one race that I can find -- that is called out as being especially good at detecting people in stealth. Not Bosmer, though, and not even Khajiit -- Orcs. Wood Orcs specifically. But it works for Orcs overall. Orcs are repeatedly called paranoid, even by themselves; and this makes sense given their history. They are watchful for the next inevitable attack.

Nishastra

What utter trash this is. The stealth bonus was the only reason why I played a Bosmer.

Claiming the change is because "stealth isn't always useful" and then giving us stealth detection instead is really quite the joke.

anadandy

You're probably right. But with the ill will they've created with this, I don't care if they released a DLC called "Everyone stealths and Bosmer is King!" at this point.

I also got a kick out of this:

Additionally, since Stealth is not always engaged with at the same rate across the game

That's their way of sorta kinda not acknowledging the argument.

Cundu_Ertur

PSA: Be careful when reselecting Wood Elf Passives, for me the Hunter's Eye passive was the first one listed.

I just don't want someone to click on it by mistake and get stuck with skill points in a completely worthless garbage skill. So, 3 more skill points to sit with the 12 I already had. Such wow.

Great job, ZOS.

Left4Daud

They are so stubbornly determined to repurpose Bosmer into sentries they don’t even realize how wasteful the increased detection bonus really is. I can’t think of any part of any other racial passive that is completely useless for PVE except for the Breton AP flavor boost. But, there are still PVE quests in Cyrodiil which can utilize this bonus and ultimately even if you PVP all day everyday this bonus is quite small. Therefore it’s not really the best comparison but it’s the only other instance of a racial passive not having some use in PVE. Bosmer truly have the only passive with currently no actual use in PVE. Nope, it doesn’t even detect the one lousy enemy type in the game that cloaks for 2 seconds while charging up an awfully telegraphed heavy attack.

Now on the PVP side, this bonus is still completely useless. Why? It only works against enemies that are crouched/hidden in stealth (as opposed to invisible) AND the 3 meter range is so abysmally small it will have no tangible impact on when you detect a moving stealthed target. Do you know how close you have to be to hit someone with Puncture? That ability is 5 meters in range and it’s practically kissing distance. 3 meters of increased stealth detection is pitifully unimpressive in comparison.

Sure, maybe if someone went AFK in crouch a Bosmer will detect them ONE SINGLE STEP CLOSER than any other race since that’s how small 3 meters really is. Seriously even thrusting a dagger in your opponent has more reach than the reveal radius of this passive...

Wow great, what an awesome buff to my race! Can’t wait to stumble into that stealthed raid in front of Fare one step sooner. Will really turn the tide of the war.

Not.

Left4Daud

This Bosmer woke up today thinking it would be like any other day. After enjoying his morning meal, he set out to swindle the local population of Elden Root like he usually does. "Something feels different today." He thinks to himself. He can't tell why, but his marks are awfully suspicious of him. "You're as subtle as a Bull Netch in a pottery shop!" One mark says to him, as he gets revealed with his hands in another's pocket. Usually he can weave in and out these crowds like a shadow, but today he feels as if he's stumbling about like a drunken Nord... Oh no, the Elden Root guard has been alerted! This poor Bosmer thief now lays dead rotting under the Elden tree. Rest in piece my friend, you had a good run.

Cundu_Ertur

Yup.

Uryel

Still not giving up !

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460622/patch-notes-4-3-5/p5

KnightsMentor

I can't agree more, totally goes against the established lore.

anadandy

Uryel wrote: »

Still not giving up !

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460622/patch-notes-4-3-5/p5

Good for you! I will never stop reminding zos about stealth detection until they give us an explanation other than "because reasons."

And I swear, I see one more "Hurr durr, stealth is useless RP" comment...

Ratzkifal

I submitted a support ticket asking for an explanation. Too bad ZOS doesn't allow us to give actual feedback and get an actual response from a human being there.

BlueRaven

If they actually respond, can you post it?

Cundu_Ertur

Spoiler alert:
They won't respond.

Jaraal

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I submitted a support ticket asking for an explanation. Too bad ZOS doesn't allow us to give actual feedback and get an actual response from a human being there.

Maybe if everyone sends in bug reports, about bugged NPCs and guards attacking where they never did before? If they won't fix Bosmer stealth radius, maybe they can adjust NPC detection radius.

Katahdin

You know, I have fully leveled thieves that are imperials and other races that don't have a sneak passive or use sneaky armor and they still do just fine thieving

Ratzkifal

Katahdin wrote: »

You know, I have fully leveled thieves that are imperials and other races that don't have a sneak passive or use sneaky armor and they still do just fine thieving

@Katahdin That is not the issue. The issue is staying true to the lore. Nobody denies that the 3m passive was pretty useless as well, but ZOS could have changed it to be useful without breaking the lore. Think of 20% cost reduction to sneak or 10% more speed while sneaking. Anything that actively encourages sneaking really.

BlueRaven

Katahdin wrote: »

You know, I have fully leveled thieves that are imperials and other races that don't have a sneak passive or use sneaky armor and they still do just fine thieving

Good for you!

And now your imperial has a racial that is a boon for stealth, while one of the stealthiest races in the game has none. So your Imperial is now stealthier then a bosmer! Thats not weird, right?

A_Silverius

Katahdin wrote: »

You know, I have fully leveled thieves that are imperials and other races that don't have a sneak passive or use sneaky armor and they still do just fine thieving

You should try Bosmer thieving with reduce detection radius sets. Oh wait, you can't anymore. On Khajiit I guess. Even while questing as a sneaky Bosmer, you'd be surprised by how much enemies that 3m radius can help you sneak past without having to kill.

Vanzen

Pvp wise, juste tried and contrary to what I thought, its a boost to Bosmer NB.

More stam and same recovery.

The dodge roll speed + pen is op in conjunction with cloak.

Pve Wise the loose of stealth is not nice.

Soleya

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

IF the detection bonus was in parallel with a hiding bonus, it would be fine, Bosmer are excellent scouts, hunters, yadda yadda yadda… . But to REPLACE the hiding bonus with the detection bonus IS COMPLETELY LORE BREAKING because it ignores the FACT that in the lore and in every previous iteration of the Elder Scrolls as a franchise BOSMER HAVE BEEN THIEVES. They have never NOT been thieves.

Wood Elf/Bosmer description from previous TES games. Added bolding for emphasis.

Arena
"Thou hast chosen Valenwood, land of the Wood Elves."

Wood Elves are a people of the forest, matching their features to all that is found growing in the green woods of their homeland. They are known to be extremely agile and quick. They are well suited towards any class, although their nimbleness serves them best in any art involving thievery.

Daggerfall
"Wood Elves hail from the province of Valenwood. You are part of a small, fair-skinned people known to be extremely agile and quick. Wood Elves have a natural affinity for the bow and arrow, and all members of their race have some ability with that weapon. There are well-known Wood Elves in most every class, but the arts of thievery are their particular forte."

Morrowind
The Bosmer or Wood Elves are the elven natives of Valenwood. Skilled in marksmanship and sneaking, Bosmer make adept thieves, assassins, and agents.

Oblivion
"The clanfolk of the Western Valenwood forests, also known as "Bosmer." Wood Elves are nimble and quick, making them good scouts and thieves, and there are no finer archers in all of Tamriel. Their ability to command simple creatures is well-known."

Skyrim
The clanfolk of the Western Valenwood forests, also known as "Bosmer." Wood elves make good scouts and thieves, and there are no finer archers in all of Tamriel. They have natural resistances to both poisons and diseases. They can Command Animals to fight for them.