Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Katahdin

@Ratzkifal, @BlueRaven, @A_Silverius

My point is that you do not need this passive to be successful as a thief whatsoever. You can use any a race as a theif.

People claiming that their theif character is now utterly destroyed and can't be a thief any more and "OMG! I can't log in now over this! Woe is me!" are being overly melodramatic and emotional over it.

I agree the detect passive is useless and stupid in pve and could have been something better but your character is not destroyed because of this!

I have 2 Imperials I used as thieves with no sneak passive. I have a bosmer that will still be a thief without the passive

Shocking, I know

A_Silverius

Katahdin wrote: »

@Ratzkifal, @BlueRaven, @A_Silverius

My point is that you do not need this passive to be successful as a thief whatsoever. You can use any a race as a theif.

People claiming that their theif character is now utterly destroyed and can't be a thief any more and "OMG! I can't log in now over this! Woe is me!" are being overly melodramatic and emotional over it.

I agree the detect passive is useless and stupid in pve and could have been something better but your character is not destroyed because of this!

I have 2 Imperials I used as thieves with no sneak passive. I have a bosmer that will still be a thief without the passive

Shocking, I know

My point was that Bosmer with sneak passive was the most efficient thief. Just like the lore says so.

Bladewizard

If you did not play one of the two races that had an improved steath reduction before this you have no idea what has been lost. I have over twenty toons on two platforms, I have done both the thieves guild and the dark brotherhood on more then just my woof elves and khajits. Being able to get 9 feet closer before being detected makes a huge difference. My wood elf had his achievement for 5 perfect sacraments before my dunmer got even 1.

Bladewizard

Err wood elves sorry not woof elves

A_Silverius

Bladewizard wrote: »

Err wood elves sorry not woof elves

No mistake if you're a werewoof:D

Katahdin

A_Silverius wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

@Ratzkifal, @BlueRaven, @A_Silverius

My point is that you do not need this passive to be successful as a thief whatsoever. You can use any a race as a theif.

People claiming that their theif character is now utterly destroyed and can't be a thief any more and "OMG! I can't log in now over this! Woe is me!" are being overly melodramatic and emotional over it.

I agree the detect passive is useless and stupid in pve and could have been something better but your character is not destroyed because of this!

I have 2 Imperials I used as thieves with no sneak passive. I have a bosmer that will still be a thief without the passive

Shocking, I know

My point was that Bosmer with sneak passive was the most efficient thief. Just like the lore says so.

You'll live and still be able to steal stuff just fine. Or rage quit.
Your choice

A_Silverius

Katahdin wrote: »

You'll live and still be able to steal stuff just fine. Or rage quit.
Your choice

I'd rather choose to give my feedback, which I and many others have done. Thanks for the suggestions though.

Eiron77

I had small hope the detect stealth idiocy would be retconned before live...

I was excited about Elsweyr, but no more. I will not sub, buy anymore crown purchases, and I will not buy anymore DLC or expansions. So glad I did not preorder Elsweyr. I may not even login after this.

Tonight, I will login and distribute my skill points in the bosmer racials, but NOT Hunters Eye. I did not create my wood elf of 5 years to be a *******ed sentry or guard. The roll dodge was uninspired nonsense that was cut and pasted from the bow skill line. The temporary penetration bonus conflicts with the hard cap in order to be an effective DD in pve. They completely changed the concept of wood elves in contradiction of well established TES lore and in contradiction of their reasonings. In fact, by the mechanics of the game, the stealth detect makes us worse hunters than khajits. It does not even deliver on their intended goals for bosmers.

The only feedback displayed a complete dismissal of player feedback. Implementing stealth bonuses outside of racials does not address the concerns.

MLGProPlayer

Prime example of ZOS taking feedback into consideration. Well done. I applaud you.

Here we have a passive that doesn't affect PvE endgame or PvP (it's just a flavour passive used in theft/assassin gameplay in PvE). It's also embedded in the lore as Bosmer are THE stealth race.

Giving Bosmer back this passive would have ZERO impact on their performance in any mode.

So what does ZOS do? Completely ignore the feedback.

Once again, well done, ZOS. Give yourselves a pat on the back. You deserve it!

Night_Wolf2112

I have 3 Bosmer with names that relate to stealthy aspects . . . . like, Night / Shadow / Shade / Stealth / . . . . with other combinations....


It's not because they can 'detect' people sooner! They already know who they are going to steal from!!! Well..... who they used to steal from. (yes, I know you can still be a thief... but there was a reason I created them)

Ratzkifal

Katahdin wrote: »

@Ratzkifal, @BlueRaven, @A_Silverius

My point is that you do not need this passive to be successful as a thief whatsoever. You can use any a race as a theif.

People claiming that their theif character is now utterly destroyed and can't be a thief any more and "OMG! I can't log in now over this! Woe is me!" are being overly melodramatic and emotional over it.

I agree the detect passive is useless and stupid in pve and could have been something better but your character is not destroyed because of this!

I have 2 Imperials I used as thieves with no sneak passive. I have a bosmer that will still be a thief without the passive

Shocking, I know

@Katahdin That's a nice strawman you have there.

Nobody says we can't do thievery anymore. It is just that Imperials and Khajiit now have boosts to thievery when Bosmer should have at least one as well. Khajiit even have improved pickpocketing if you take away their stealth reduction. Bosmer have nothing. Imperials have 3% sneak cost reduction now, which is alright, but Bosmer deserve sneak cost reduction more. People picked Bosmer because of their sneaking passive. Taking that away, detracts from those characters.

Taloros

Patch went live... Makes me sad. They broke one of my favorite PvE characters, a stamina Bosmer sneak thief. Having her on the login screen will forever remind of me of how fun she was, and how she got a useless PvP buff in exchange for actually being good at her job (i. e. sneaking).

Katahdin

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

@Ratzkifal, @BlueRaven, @A_Silverius

My point is that you do not need this passive to be successful as a thief whatsoever. You can use any a race as a theif.

People claiming that their theif character is now utterly destroyed and can't be a thief any more and "OMG! I can't log in now over this! Woe is me!" are being overly melodramatic and emotional over it.

I agree the detect passive is useless and stupid in pve and could have been something better but your character is not destroyed because of this!

I have 2 Imperials I used as thieves with no sneak passive. I have a bosmer that will still be a thief without the passive

Shocking, I know

@Katahdin That's a nice strawman you have there.

Nobody says we can't do thievery anymore. It is just that Imperials and Khajiit now have boosts to thievery when Bosmer should have at least one as well. Khajiit even have improved pickpocketing if you take away their stealth reduction. Bosmer have nothing. Imperials have 3% sneak cost reduction now, which is alright, but Bosmer deserve sneak cost reduction more. People picked Bosmer because of their sneaking passive. Taking that away, detracts from those characters.

What strawman? That I have characters without steath passives that are fully leveled and successful thieves?

That is not a strawman, it is a fact.

One of my imperials has every thieving related achievement in the game before they ever got a steath/sneak bonus

I have characters that lost stuff about them that were part of their identity that I loved too. I'm not changing thier race and I'm not committing hari kari over it. They will still do pretty much everything they did before. Including my bosmer who will still be a thief. They and I will survive.

You're the one claiming you're so devistated by this change that you can't bring yourself to even log in.

It's a damn game, not your life at stake.

A_Silverius

Katahdin wrote: »

It's a damn game, not your life at stake.

Its a game, and we Bosmer like our stealth GAMEplay and lore. We play games for fun, taking away our super sneaky gameplay is taking away our fun. So, we give feedback.

Ratzkifal

Katahdin wrote: »

What strawman?

You're the one claiming you're so devistated by this change that you can't bring yourself to even log in.

Katahdin wrote: »

People claiming that their theif character [...]and can't be a thief any more and "OMG! I can't log in now over this! Woe is me!" are being overly melodramatic and emotional over it.

@Katahdin What strawman? Well, I highlighted your misrepresentations of our points for you in your quotes.

None of us is saying any of that. We are complaing that the racial passives don't reflect the lore as they should and as ZOS promised.

MartiniDaniels

Katahdin wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

@Ratzkifal, @BlueRaven, @A_Silverius

My point is that you do not need this passive to be successful as a thief whatsoever. You can use any a race as a theif.

People claiming that their theif character is now utterly destroyed and can't be a thief any more and "OMG! I can't log in now over this! Woe is me!" are being overly melodramatic and emotional over it.

I agree the detect passive is useless and stupid in pve and could have been something better but your character is not destroyed because of this!

I have 2 Imperials I used as thieves with no sneak passive. I have a bosmer that will still be a thief without the passive

Shocking, I know

My point was that Bosmer with sneak passive was the most efficient thief. Just like the lore says so.

You'll live and still be able to steal stuff just fine. Or rage quit.
Your choice

Yes, you may snap on couple of mediocre boring sets which provide stealth radius and steal as them same as any altmer. Don't compare it to bosmer we had for years which can steal anything from anywhere and anybody while being in few medium armor pieces. I have a bosmer PVE tank/PVP brawler who was able to steal something when the mood is right, who was able to pass all mazzatun skips without invisibility potions and in heavy armor etc. Now it is all gone and bosmer was pigeonholed to anti-nightblade interceptor role and usage of suboptimal sets.

Jaraal

Mind boggling how they have far more PvE players than PvP, yet with every update they are robbing core PvE values to address some niche PvP issue. Incredible that they can change your hit points and other stats the moment you zone into Cyrodiil, but they can't figure out how to modify skills in the same way.

The monetization crew must be livid about the combat team driving away PvEers like this, since they are the ones more likely to buy houses, furniture, cosmetics, and other fluff items than the PvP dedicated minority. Their strategy makes no sense.

dotme

Jaraal wrote: »

Mind boggling how they have far more PvE players than PvP, yet with every update they are robbing core PvE values to address some niche PvP issue. Incredible that they can change your hit points and other stats the moment you zone into Cyrodiil, but they can't figure out how to modify skills in the same way.

The monetization crew must be livid about the combat team driving away PvEers like this, since they are the ones more likely to buy houses, furniture, cosmetics, and other fluff items than the PvP dedicated minority. Their strategy makes no sense.

Well, I'm one of those PvP dedicated minorities. I subscribe monthly and have bought a lot of crowns. And yet I also think the changes are unnecessary.

At least in Cyrodiil, many of the people I play with would mostly like the frequent random load screens, permanent "in-combat" bugs and general performance of the servers improved.

Changing the racial passives feels a bit like re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic from my perspective. It's all a bit pointless. Just get the game running the way it's supposed to.

Exousia

Well.. My Bosmer Nightblade Vampire Assassin will now be better off being an Imperial Nightblade Vampire Assassin.

It's all because of the Stealth + Stealth Damage lost. I use Spriggans, I DO NOT NEED penetration.

Why can't ZoS give Bosmer an increase of Bow Range by 3m? *It'll actually make Eagle Eye's +3m useful.

What we have now is a 10% movement speed buff + Penetration, which both are useless in a PvE environment. Movement speed increase is actually a bad thing if there are multiple AoEs to consider. It's easy to over step because one is too fast.
Bosmer's racial change seems like the only one that comes with a "cost" which is rolling.

Anyways. I'm very disappointed. Seems like Bosmer has the weakest passive out of all the other races. I will be switching the race to Imperial.

P.S

I find Fall Damage Reduction of 10% to be absolutely and utterly useless. Make it 50% - to compensate for the fact that Bosmers generally are Nightblades who have VERY low hp - generally around 20k (with food) At half hp, one cannot survive a fall from a watch tower even with a cheap 10% reduction. 50% will be something meaningful. Hell with our Stealth Passive back, I can imagine a lot of infiltration play.

Katahdin

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

@Ratzkifal, @BlueRaven, @A_Silverius

My point is that you do not need this passive to be successful as a thief whatsoever. You can use any a race as a theif.

People claiming that their theif character is now utterly destroyed and can't be a thief any more and "OMG! I can't log in now over this! Woe is me!" are being overly melodramatic and emotional over it.

I agree the detect passive is useless and stupid in pve and could have been something better but your character is not destroyed because of this!

I have 2 Imperials I used as thieves with no sneak passive. I have a bosmer that will still be a thief without the passive

Shocking, I know

My point was that Bosmer with sneak passive was the most efficient thief. Just like the lore says so.

You'll live and still be able to steal stuff just fine. Or rage quit.
Your choice

Yes, you may snap on couple of mediocre boring sets which provide stealth radius and steal as them same as any altmer. Don't compare it to bosmer we had for years which can steal anything from anywhere and anybody while being in few medium armor pieces. I have a bosmer PVE tank/PVP brawler who was able to steal something when the mood is right, who was able to pass all mazzatun skips without invisibility potions and in heavy armor etc. Now it is all gone and bosmer was pigeonholed to anti-nightblade interceptor role and usage of suboptimal sets.

Wow did Mazzatun last night with an Argonian that could do all the skips without invis potions. Ive done it on a breton, and altmer and dunmer and nord, and imperial before the changes. All of them did all the skips with not potions and no passives.
Every class can steal stuff, sure you may have to be slightly more careful.

I still think people are making WAY too much out of these racial changes.
None of you are going to change my mind.

Give all the feed back you want. They know all about the whingin and crying and they still did not change it.
Its live and its probably not going to change. So learn to live with it or race change all your characters or continue to whine and cry to no avail.

My load in is done and I am going to go play the game and have fun instead of beat my head against a brick wall in a silent room.

Done with this stupid thread. Have a nice day!

max_only

Katahdin wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

@Ratzkifal, @BlueRaven, @A_Silverius

My point is that you do not need this passive to be successful as a thief whatsoever. You can use any a race as a theif.

People claiming that their theif character is now utterly destroyed and can't be a thief any more and "OMG! I can't log in now over this! Woe is me!" are being overly melodramatic and emotional over it.

I agree the detect passive is useless and stupid in pve and could have been something better but your character is not destroyed because of this!

I have 2 Imperials I used as thieves with no sneak passive. I have a bosmer that will still be a thief without the passive

Shocking, I know

My point was that Bosmer with sneak passive was the most efficient thief. Just like the lore says so.

You'll live and still be able to steal stuff just fine. Or rage quit.
Your choice

Yes, you may snap on couple of mediocre boring sets which provide stealth radius and steal as them same as any altmer. Don't compare it to bosmer we had for years which can steal anything from anywhere and anybody while being in few medium armor pieces. I have a bosmer PVE tank/PVP brawler who was able to steal something when the mood is right, who was able to pass all mazzatun skips without invisibility potions and in heavy armor etc. Now it is all gone and bosmer was pigeonholed to anti-nightblade interceptor role and usage of suboptimal sets.

Wow did Mazzatun last night with an Argonian that could do all the skips without invis potions. Ive done it on a breton, and altmer and dunmer and nord, and imperial before the changes. All of them did all the skips with not potions and no passives.
Every class can steal stuff, sure you may have to be slightly more careful.

I still think people are making WAY too much out of these racial changes.
None of you are going to change my mind.

Give all the feed back you want. They know all about the whingin and crying and they still did not change it.
Its live and its probably not going to change. So learn to live with it or race change all your characters or continue to whine and cry to no avail.

My load in is done and I am going to go play the game and have fun instead of beat my head against a brick wall in a silent room.

Done with this stupid thread. Have a nice day!

Finally they’re gone.

Cundu_Ertur

max_only wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

@Ratzkifal, @BlueRaven, @A_Silverius

My point is that you do not need this passive to be successful as a thief whatsoever. You can use any a race as a theif.

People claiming that their theif character is now utterly destroyed and can't be a thief any more and "OMG! I can't log in now over this! Woe is me!" are being overly melodramatic and emotional over it.

I agree the detect passive is useless and stupid in pve and could have been something better but your character is not destroyed because of this!

I have 2 Imperials I used as thieves with no sneak passive. I have a bosmer that will still be a thief without the passive

Shocking, I know

My point was that Bosmer with sneak passive was the most efficient thief. Just like the lore says so.

You'll live and still be able to steal stuff just fine. Or rage quit.
Your choice

Yes, you may snap on couple of mediocre boring sets which provide stealth radius and steal as them same as any altmer. Don't compare it to bosmer we had for years which can steal anything from anywhere and anybody while being in few medium armor pieces. I have a bosmer PVE tank/PVP brawler who was able to steal something when the mood is right, who was able to pass all mazzatun skips without invisibility potions and in heavy armor etc. Now it is all gone and bosmer was pigeonholed to anti-nightblade interceptor role and usage of suboptimal sets.

Wow did Mazzatun last night with an Argonian that could do all the skips without invis potions. Ive done it on a breton, and altmer and dunmer and nord, and imperial before the changes. All of them did all the skips with not potions and no passives.
Every class can steal stuff, sure you may have to be slightly more careful.

I still think people are making WAY too much out of these racial changes.
None of you are going to change my mind.

Give all the feed back you want. They know all about the whingin and crying and they still did not change it.
Its live and its probably not going to change. So learn to live with it or race change all your characters or continue to whine and cry to no avail.

My load in is done and I am going to go play the game and have fun instead of beat my head against a brick wall in a silent room.

Done with this stupid thread. Have a nice day!

Finally they’re gone.

I'm gonna get all weepy.

Ratzkifal

What was that called again? Dunning-Kruger effect? "Because I don't understand your arguments, you must be wrong!"

Eitherway, we will not go quietly into the night! We will not vanish without a fight! Today we will have our independence BOSMER day!

Jeremy

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Incidentally, if you're wanting to make any character stealthy, my recomendation would be either Night Mother's Embrace (the Night Mother drop set, not the crafted one), and either Darkstride, Night Terror (for reduced detection radius), or Night's Silence (for full movement in stealth).

Did you seriously think that somebody who makes as much of a fuss about stealthiness as I do didn't know that?

I've been playing the character for years wearing Night Terror and Night's Silence. I've been collecting Night Mother's Embrace since it was a heavy set, but it's just taking up bank space;I don't want to use both it and Night Terror, since I don't want to make my character a vampire, and hence do what him to have Night's Silence. Of course I have a lot of it stashed away now, since who hasn't farmed Deshaan dropped sets at some point? The original plan was to make a second stealthy character wearing it, but as much as I liked the Thieves Guild the first time, I haven't yet felt like repeating the quests. Besides, one of the big things I use sneaking for is generic mats farming (yes, I know there are other ways to do it), and having enough skill points for that, for thieving and for combat ... well, it's a lot of skill points.

I sympathize.

But it sounds like it's time to become a kitty cat.

max_only

Jeremy wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Incidentally, if you're wanting to make any character stealthy, my recomendation would be either Night Mother's Embrace (the Night Mother drop set, not the crafted one), and either Darkstride, Night Terror (for reduced detection radius), or Night's Silence (for full movement in stealth).

Did you seriously think that somebody who makes as much of a fuss about stealthiness as I do didn't know that?

I've been playing the character for years wearing Night Terror and Night's Silence. I've been collecting Night Mother's Embrace since it was a heavy set, but it's just taking up bank space;I don't want to use both it and Night Terror, since I don't want to make my character a vampire, and hence do what him to have Night's Silence. Of course I have a lot of it stashed away now, since who hasn't farmed Deshaan dropped sets at some point? The original plan was to make a second stealthy character wearing it, but as much as I liked the Thieves Guild the first time, I haven't yet felt like repeating the quests. Besides, one of the big things I use sneaking for is generic mats farming (yes, I know there are other ways to do it), and having enough skill points for that, for thieving and for combat ... well, it's a lot of skill points.

I sympathize.

But it sounds like it's time to become a kitty cat.

No thank you. In fact I wish stealth had been given to more races. Argonian Shadowscales and Dunmer Morag Tong should have always had this same reduced detection passive. More choices only helps, it never hurts.

BlueRaven

max_only wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Incidentally, if you're wanting to make any character stealthy, my recomendation would be either Night Mother's Embrace (the Night Mother drop set, not the crafted one), and either Darkstride, Night Terror (for reduced detection radius), or Night's Silence (for full movement in stealth).

Did you seriously think that somebody who makes as much of a fuss about stealthiness as I do didn't know that?

I've been playing the character for years wearing Night Terror and Night's Silence. I've been collecting Night Mother's Embrace since it was a heavy set, but it's just taking up bank space;I don't want to use both it and Night Terror, since I don't want to make my character a vampire, and hence do what him to have Night's Silence. Of course I have a lot of it stashed away now, since who hasn't farmed Deshaan dropped sets at some point? The original plan was to make a second stealthy character wearing it, but as much as I liked the Thieves Guild the first time, I haven't yet felt like repeating the quests. Besides, one of the big things I use sneaking for is generic mats farming (yes, I know there are other ways to do it), and having enough skill points for that, for thieving and for combat ... well, it's a lot of skill points.

I sympathize.

But it sounds like it's time to become a kitty cat.

No thank you. In fact I wish stealth had been given to more races. Argonian Shadowscales and Dunmer Morag Tong should have always had this same reduced detection passive. More choices only helps, it never hurts.

This. I don't think any of us are that selfish with this passive. I can easily see more races with a bonus to stealth.

Ratzkifal

max_only wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Incidentally, if you're wanting to make any character stealthy, my recomendation would be either Night Mother's Embrace (the Night Mother drop set, not the crafted one), and either Darkstride, Night Terror (for reduced detection radius), or Night's Silence (for full movement in stealth).

Did you seriously think that somebody who makes as much of a fuss about stealthiness as I do didn't know that?

I've been playing the character for years wearing Night Terror and Night's Silence. I've been collecting Night Mother's Embrace since it was a heavy set, but it's just taking up bank space;I don't want to use both it and Night Terror, since I don't want to make my character a vampire, and hence do what him to have Night's Silence. Of course I have a lot of it stashed away now, since who hasn't farmed Deshaan dropped sets at some point? The original plan was to make a second stealthy character wearing it, but as much as I liked the Thieves Guild the first time, I haven't yet felt like repeating the quests. Besides, one of the big things I use sneaking for is generic mats farming (yes, I know there are other ways to do it), and having enough skill points for that, for thieving and for combat ... well, it's a lot of skill points.

I sympathize.

But it sounds like it's time to become a kitty cat.

No thank you. In fact I wish stealth had been given to more races. Argonian Shadowscales and Dunmer Morag Tong should have always had this same reduced detection passive. More choices only helps, it never hurts.

Yeah, honestly I don't see why Bosmer and Khajiit were the only ones to have them in the first place.

Razorback174

This entire update reeks of a PvP mindset. (I.E. "Stealth detect is useful!", "Off-stat regen is useful!")

I can see no other reasoning for the gutting of core racial identities and tossing decades of established lore down the proverbial toilet.

And reading those worthless "developer commentary" bits in the patch notes only further confirm my suspicions. (Seriously. Using "alteration magic" as an argument for the Altmer spell recharge change? How dense are these people?)

But it's fine. They've chosen to make these lore-shattering changes. And, likewise, I've chosen to stop supporting them. It's hard to keep your house standing when you start destroying your own foundation.

Nishastra

Ratzkifal wrote: »

What was that called again? Dunning-Kruger effect? "Because I don't understand your arguments, you must be wrong!"

Eitherway, we will not go quietly into the night! We will not vanish without a fight! Today we will have our independence BOSMER day!

Of course we won't quietly vanish, we're not so good at stealth any more.

thedude33

The open letter has been closed and returned to the sender.