Daus wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

It feels most of the NB changes are going to have a bigger impact in PvP than PvE, yet I feel they were intended for PvE.

Bolstering is likely to become an excellent PvP skill, and swapping a self heal for invis might be to some of the more tanky types taste.

Which is a good thing since Nightblades were the only class that was non-beneficial to group PvP. The Bolstering darkness chance was a great one. It finally brings group utility to PvP. Before this the Nightblade was a pretty selfish play style.

Wait, bombers and hard ccing are non beneficial to group PvP?
Huh.

Groups pretty much ran magblade, (bomb) magsorc (negate) and magplar (heal) only. With maybe a token warden or DK acting as one of the other roles.

Feanor wrote: »

@SirSocke

The issue is that these skills are overloaded. The developer comment on the PTS for taking the CC off magWarden‘s shalks (or of Frags, for that matter) was that high damage abilities shouldn’t provide a CC. Now compare that comment with Incap and Dawnbreaker. It’s not about getting killed - it’s about having several key burst components rolled into a single ability. If you have to use 1 GCD less for your burst it’s a meaningful limitation on the opponents counterplay.

problem is incap doesnt have 2 morphs for each spec like dawnbreaker does to differ from damage or cc. also these are ultimates not abilities. you cant compare them to abilities.

ak_pvp wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

It feels most of the NB changes are going to have a bigger impact in PvP than PvE, yet I feel they were intended for PvE.

Bolstering is likely to become an excellent PvP skill, and swapping a self heal for invis might be to some of the more tanky types taste.

Which is a good thing since Nightblades were the only class that was non-beneficial to group PvP. The Bolstering darkness chance was a great one. It finally brings group utility to PvP. Before this the Nightblade was a pretty selfish play style.

Wait, bombers and hard ccing are non beneficial to group PvP?
Huh.

Groups pretty much ran magblade, (bomb) magsorc (negate) and magplar (heal) only. With maybe a token warden or DK acting as one of the other roles.

Not in battlegrounds. Typically if you have a Nightblade in your group they're pretty useless; although magblades can offer decent off healing, but it's nothing a magden, magplar can't do better. MagDKs are phenomenal for group play! The only class I would prefer over them is a magplar. Sorcs have negate, the Stam version pretty much eats Nightblades passively, and the magic sorcs pretty much kill everything passively with endless fury. With the addition of Bolstering darkness, Nightblades both Stam and magicka can bring a lot to the table as far as group play goes.

Daus wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@SirSocke

The issue is that these skills are overloaded. The developer comment on the PTS for taking the CC off magWarden‘s shalks (or of Frags, for that matter) was that high damage abilities shouldn’t provide a CC. Now compare that comment with Incap and Dawnbreaker. It’s not about getting killed - it’s about having several key burst components rolled into a single ability. If you have to use 1 GCD less for your burst it’s a meaningful limitation on the opponents counterplay.

problem is incap doesnt have 2 morphs for each spec like dawnbreaker does to differ from damage or cc. also these are ultimates not abilities. you cant compare them to abilities.

They really should since most magblades play at range anyways.

Technically it is a choice between Damage and CC. ‘Cept the ‘Damage’ is it being able to be used more often when killing trash mobs. A more unique method than just pumping up the tooltip.

Daus wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

It feels most of the NB changes are going to have a bigger impact in PvP than PvE, yet I feel they were intended for PvE.

Bolstering is likely to become an excellent PvP skill, and swapping a self heal for invis might be to some of the more tanky types taste.

Which is a good thing since Nightblades were the only class that was non-beneficial to group PvP. The Bolstering darkness chance was a great one. It finally brings group utility to PvP. Before this the Nightblade was a pretty selfish play style.

Wait, bombers and hard ccing are non beneficial to group PvP?
Huh.

Groups pretty much ran magblade, (bomb) magsorc (negate) and magplar (heal) only. With maybe a token warden or DK acting as one of the other roles.

Not in battlegrounds. Typically if you have a Nightblade in your group they're pretty useless; although magblades can offer decent off healing, but it's nothing a magden, magplar can't do better. MagDKs are phenomenal for group play! The only class I would prefer over them is a magplar. Sorcs have negate, the Stam version pretty much eats Nightblades passively, and the magic sorcs pretty much kill everything passively with endless fury. With the addition of Bolstering darkness, Nightblades both Stam and magicka can bring a lot to the table as far as group play goes.

Ah, you mean small group, then yes. I'd agree. You can't really specialise bomber or negate with a group of only 4, so classes who can play both support and offense win, hence mdk, with cc being a main part vs sorc afterthought, templar healing being main and wardens being master of all trades.

Nb kind of makes up for it in how good they are in no CP because cloak requires no star investment for potency, only uptime, and damage is more lethal.

SirSocke wrote: »

What about removing the stun but making incap undodgable?

You mean old Soul Harvest. Gone are the times Magblade could use Soul Harvest and not give up too much. Now every Magblade I know uses incap because it is just so much better #BuffSoulHarvest

Daus wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

It feels most of the NB changes are going to have a bigger impact in PvP than PvE, yet I feel they were intended for PvE.

Bolstering is likely to become an excellent PvP skill, and swapping a self heal for invis might be to some of the more tanky types taste.

Dark Cloak will heal for pityful numbers in PvP, and 3s of minor protection is not worth a slot. Bolstering being more useful in PvP is a good thing. Unless you're healing or offhealing, NBs usually have 0 group utility.

Dependa isn't it another heal over time if so if you make it scale off max crit if you have 25k health it pretty good and it allow you to drop rally.

I'd suggest dropping rally for forward Momentum regardless next update. Otherwise you'll be free AP to magicka players. Your damage will be garbage if you can't get close to them.

Yea I remember when I first cameback early this update tired using shuffle against a group of Magwarden on my stamwarden and stamplar they had me perma rooted/ snare the whole fight it felt like.

NyassaV wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/411151/why-strife-is-being-changed#latest

Now we have to increase the cost of Burning Embers

No we don't, Embers is a Dot no one is spamming embers.
Strife is a spammable, the cost increase might be a bit much but you just want to nerf everyone else eventhough they don't need deserve it.

Magnb is still the best Magicka DPS and is so strong with the changes to Light attacks, shade and 2h that i bet it will be nerfed in the future.

Also it's easy to sustain a 2700 base cost spammable that's what all meele magnbs do and you don't have any issues there.

NyassaV wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@SirSocke

The issue is that these skills are overloaded. The developer comment on the PTS for taking the CC off magWarden‘s shalks (or of Frags, for that matter) was that high damage abilities shouldn’t provide a CC. Now compare that comment with Incap and Dawnbreaker. It’s not about getting killed - it’s about having several key burst components rolled into a single ability. If you have to use 1 GCD less for your burst it’s a meaningful limitation on the opponents counterplay.

With the small difference that DBoS isn't overloaded. You get Damage+stun and some passives.

Incap however gives you 2 debuffs+damage+stun + passives + latency bugs

Also i completely disagree with you on removing the damage buff on incap. That's the only skill in the game that has the debuff vulnerability (not empower) and it's the a huge reason why nightblades perform good in pve and PvP. In pve it's just a very good damage increase and in PvP it gives nbs enough pressure to kill people without needing a delayed burst skill.
The only thing that needs to be removed is the CC. Soul harvest does the same thing but it's not an issue because it doesn't feature a CC.

Ofc you have to give Incap something to prevent it from being useless be it another small buff/debuff, snare or some out of combat utility

Forgot to mention DBoS also hate latency issues like every skill in the game + AoE + applies a nice DoT effect to all targets in the area

DBoS has negative latency issues for the user because the skill doesn't connect.
Incap has positive latency issues as from time to time it ignores cc immunity or dodge roll.

Stop this useless DBoS vs Incap discussion. Incap is an overloaded skill while DBoS is the only useable ult for 3 Stamina classes.

1) I hate incap as well
2) No it's a useful discussion as it is a sort of problem. It's just like how frags was a burst and a CC but frags wasn't an ult.

Damn you are biased. #BuffSoulHarvest

DBoS to me is a fine skill, fairly well made. I wish meteor was more comparable to it

Yeah right let's buff the other morph to match the overperfoming other morph because who cares about balance anyway.
Not incap is what death stroke morphs should be balanced around it's soul harvest a strong ability that loses because it's competition is overtuned.

I am biased, yes towards a balanced game and incap has no place in there with it's stun.

BohnT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/411151/why-strife-is-being-changed#latest

Now we have to increase the cost of Burning Embers

No we don't, Embers is a Dot no one is spamming embers.
Strife is a spammable, the cost increase might be a bit much but you just want to nerf everyone else eventhough they don't need deserve it.

And both of them are skills tanks use as a cheap form of healing
If one gets screwed then the other should too

DPS use it as a cheap form of healing too and embers is far cheaper than strife (and it should be cuz it's a dot) but with the current change it'll be stupidly cheaper than strife

Subversus wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

I think we can agree that both magsorc and stamnb have the most toxic forum lobby.
Why this is i have some ideas but i better not share them

I think mDk also deserves are spot there

Edit: Incap doesnt need a nerf on the pts. If u fight the new magicka builds u will notice why. Of course incap always feels strong on the PTS vs EU players since we cant break free and roll assasins will because of ping issues.

I think the DK thread is dead. StamDKs no longer exist and MagDKs won't get anything.

Daus wrote: »

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Only nerf they should consider to Death Stroke and it's morphs should be the ult cost. 70 ult is really cheap. Yes it does a lot, but it's pure single-target, contrary to DBoS.

I feel like NBs punish squishy people and outpositioned people and that's why people get triggered: They refuse to adapt. I am not sure if Incap actually deserves nerfs or it is mostly a L2P issue. Perhaps they could rework the ultimate to make it equally as strong but not as oppresive. How they would do that however, I don't know. But just blindly nerfing Incap is not the answer.

They can't increase the cost of incap because than PVE Stamblade DPS would go down the drain and be back to the weakest StamDPS.It would kinda F over Major slayer uptime.You can only run 1 stamplar in a group so no more major slayer and back to only Stamdk in groups.If any at all.

It wouldn't be that bad to be honest. Stamsorc uses War Machine and has decent uptime by using DB, which costs 105 for them I believe? EDIT: And Stamblade has better Ult gen.

Yea it wouldn't be the same it would have no were near the uptime as stamblade or even stamplars.A almost 30 ultimate difference is huge.Uptime wouldn't be anywhere close lets say its a 75% uptime now but it be only a 40% for a stamsorc if even that.

Yeah 105 ult would be too much for Incap, I was thinking maybe 85-90.

Any increase in cost to Incap would result in stamblades using Soul Harvest or DBoS; depending on content. Incap is perfectly balanced where it's at.

Yeah, incap needs to be a cheap bursty ult to work well with the in n out style, and also PvE uses things like war machine. Its more the defile that is OP, but that is in general. Personally I think it should stay as is, else we end up with another empowering.

For real lol all the good oldschool stamdk mains that I know rerolled to stamden or something else.

The class is in a real bad spot, but I guess that’s what happens when you’re fotm for 3 years straight.

Issue is mostly lack of class identity. Back then you either played stamDk and you were ''the fighter'' or you played stamblade and you were ''the ganker''. That was it for stam pretty much.

Now any class can be a fighter. any class can grab master dw and have 10k+ bleeds.

So tell me, if any class could cloak, and stamDks were able to gank better than your stamblade, would you really still play a stamblade? Thats exactly why stamDk mains are moving on. The class is still playable. But there is absolutely no reason to play it.

Stamdk used to be crazy op because of it’s sustain power. When I played it for like a year before morrowind I always went with ult or damage/stat boosting setups, completely forgoing sustain because a corrosive armor pop would bring my stam back from 10% to like 80%, not to mention heavy weaving igneous to stay on high resources. Take that away, and, as you said, stamdks have nothing that makes them special.

That and the fact that dks are probably the class that’s gotten hit the hardest by the removal of the old cost reduction cps.

Mostly correct. Key thing is not sustain, but sustain through blockcasting, which is why Dks were getting a lot of QQ for. Especially black rose was the culprit.

And the biggest change for stamDK is now building weapon damage instead of max stamina. I really don't see anyone building for a lot of sustain. Even in PvE, everyone still goes pure damage. I think I run about 800 stam regen in PvE, and 1200 in PvP.(fury+seventh legion, I think this is currently the best setup for sDK)

So if zenny wanted us to build for sustain, they failed big time.

Oh yeah, the block casting. The build I actually used when I finally beat some of the legendary stamdks in duels was blood spawn / twin sisters / tava with corrosive spam, back when you had no issues with blocking in a full impen 3 weapon damage glyphs build... Think it was ulog that made it, hmmm. I miss playing stamdk, too bad I won't even touch mine until they buff it, despite having over 100 hours in /played.

Its still somewhat decent and playable in duels. Real issue is open world. That being said at least stamden exists, and is as strong as one tamriel Dk.(stamblade is still king for small scale though)

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Lucky28

It would get nerfed, if it was the main damage spammable of any rotation. The damage is gated behind the DoT for the most part, so it's not likely to get touched for the same reason.

The reason strife was nerfed was because it offered healing as well as being a main spammable at a much lower cost than other comparable skills.

Burning Embers is much more comparable to Cripple/Crippling Grasp.

Strife and Surprise Attack are comparable to Lava Whip.

burning embers is a spammable and a heal on demand. yes it's a dot, but it's more comparable to strife than cripple. i have a DK not an expert on the class but sometimes PvE is even easier on My DK then on my magblade and that's because of burning embers.

but it doens't matter. i don't want either nerfed and i'm not championing it. i want class abilities to remain unique.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Lucky28

Oh I completely agree that Burning Embers allows for easymode PvE. Slap it on any enemy, wait a few seconds, then heal for most of your health. (MagDK). I find it fitting for the class.

But unlike strife, spamming Burning Embers actually reduces the effectiveness of the skill. The heal is of course more consistent, but the damage is significantly lower. Strife gets the bonus of a heal as soon as the ability hits, while still retaining Trials worthy spammable damage. Which BE sacrifices if it is desired to be spammed.

Admittedly, Cripple itself isn't really a good comparison, just its morph, Crippling Grasp

Do you realize magDk is basically melee?

@Ragnarock41

Yeah, which is why comparing BE to Strife isn’t a good idea. Even comparing Crippling Grasp to BE is crap. BE is most closely associated with Twin Slashes.

But with people so gung-*** about comparing strife to BE I wanted to specifically target the other parts of the skill.

What exactly is your reasoning for clarifying the heavy melee focus of the DK? I might not understand your point of view.

NyassaV wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Lucky28

Oh I completely agree that Burning Embers allows for easymode PvE. Slap it on any enemy, wait a few seconds, then heal for most of your health. (MagDK). I find it fitting for the class.

But unlike strife, spamming Burning Embers actually reduces the effectiveness of the skill. The heal is of course more consistent, but the damage is significantly lower. Strife gets the bonus of a heal as soon as the ability hits, while still retaining Trials worthy spammable damage. Which BE sacrifices if it is desired to be spammed.

Admittedly, Cripple itself isn't really a good comparison, just its morph, Crippling Grasp

Burning embers spam nets 4.5k healing per second and 6.5k DPS
Strife spam nets 2.5k healing per second and 9k DPS

These numbers seem pretty balanced to me. But with the new change to strife they are not balanced at all

... And Burning Embers is a morph, not the base skill, which Strife is. So you want to balance a morph to be equal to an unmorphed class skill?

Burning Embers is also melee locked, Strife is ranged.

These skills are not comparable.