React wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

I don't find it any more skillful to do the same exact blast of damage in melee range than from ranged. It's not. Who cares if you can be seen, if the opponent still can't counter or damage you? It's the same thing. To the majority of Cyrodiil, I doubt they care if the guy killed them in one second from range or one second from melee.

This is a pretty long & unhinged post, but I will go ahead and comment on the main point you're trying to make since it is the only part that actually matters.

Yes, there is a massive difference between melee and ranged damage in regards to the risks associated with both, difficulty of executing the combos, and the counterplay available to them.

For starters, with melee damage you need to be in melee range. That is roughly 7 meters maximum. It should be very obvious why this is inherently going to be more dangerous to execute than a 28 meter ranged burst. You need to leave cover, be able to out maneuver your target, stay on top of them for the entirety of your combo, etc. Quite a bit more complexity than simply loading up your ranged burst from max distance (in stealth).

It also DOES matter if you can see them or not, that is just an absurd thing to try and dispute. With the DK melee setup you're comparing this to, the entire combo has distinct visual and audio queues. With a little internal timing, you know exactly when they're going to burst you. Their stun has a visual indicator (and can be tracked via addon) to tell you when to roll. The "unavoidable combo" of fossilize -> leap is actually 100% counterable every time by simply holding block in your roll dodge, because the spaghetti code on the leap snare cancels your dodge before the leap will hit you. Or in the case of corrosive like you say, there are VERY well telegraphed visual and audio queues to tell you exactly when you need to counterplay. Every part of the combo can either be reliably blocked, rolled, or out-spaced as it consists entirely of short-range melee or PBAOE abilities.

Now, if stealth didn't exist at all unless you had the shadow line? I'd be inclined to agree that there is similar counterplay to the current pulse ganker. But due to vamp 4 and the ability to enter stealth via crouch in combat without active dots, the pulse ganker has a very reliable way to re-enter stealth (and ball of lightning to boot!).

So much wrong, but it's nice you have an opinion. See the reason you cannot convince me is because you're tainted by bias and trying to protect the build you use. I fire siege, I don't care what builds get nerfed or not. There's no vested interest for me in the argument other than calling out hypocrisy and complete nonsense.

Saying that melee range is risky, when you can effectively reduce damage on live to like 500 points from an ultimate or less in some instances is a real joke. What threat is there? Can you please help me understand?

Wait, wait, and add-on can be used to help? Oh so external help makes something balanced? Isn't there also one to help ranged gank attempts?

Ohhh hold on, "every part of the combo can be reliably blocked, rolled, or outspaced" <-- you said that for the DK combinations, but the same exact thing can be said for the pulse gank.

Just yesterday I rolled over and over and the pulse gankers could not damage me AT ALL. Just from repetitively rolling. We're not even talking about blocking or CC being used against them. Oh and I killed them all by the way.

So when you claim that the build is just oh so powerful and uncounterable, but I can just roll, I can just stealth, I can just block and stack shields, I can heal. And I've done it, I cannot understand it.

Because to me, it's not that big of a problem until it's really stacked. Oh some guy got me with 5 other people after I wasted all my stam and mag running from two DC ball groups. What a tragedy. I died in that instance.

Names on the forum do not mean anything to me. That NPC in Oblivion said it best when it comes to knowing someone or not. I'm looking dead center at what you've posted and it makes no sense and doesn't give me the impression of someone supposedly experienced in the game.

The craziest part about the whole argument with the pulse gankers is that the best protection is literally what enables it: stealth. And the next one is the roll button.

Oh, but I'm sure all the skilled players here know that and don't need me to help them locate it.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

as always so much comes down to content and playstyle. We can see we have a dedicated sieger saying melee and ranged damage, counterable and uncounterable damage are the same, well that makes sense when you all you do is siege since you're not encountering any damage 😂

And yet someone that only fires siege 99% of the time can still fight the gankers, kill them, and avoid their damage when the supposed self-proclaimed "skilled" and knowledgeable players cannot. They can't find the roll button, they can't use a invis pot the moment they hear the sound, they crutch on add-ons (I don't) and can't roll when the game tells them to, etc.

It really is a joke.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Since most of the playerbase is very casual, the game should not be balanced entirely around the top 1% of players, and historically it never has been.

So, you are in that top 1% of players, i assume? Interesting remark from someone that we don't know anything about in-game. No username, no gameplay footage, no builds, just comments... You could be one of them that is just spamming crushing from top of castles whole day, but we'll never know i guess...

Luneca wrote: »

So when you claim that the build is just oh so powerful and uncounterable, but I can just roll, I can just stealth, I can just block and stack shields, I can heal. And I've done it, I cannot understand it.

Look I dont mean to put down my Siege Specialists, we love them, I used to run a Hot Oil Dumping Training Academy in Grahtwood and I alone have repeatedly called for Coldfire Oils. Nobody loves their Siegers like I do

But Ele Sus doesn't make a noise, has a tiny animation, can't be blocked or roll dodged, and with SLS does a WHALLOP of up front instant DoT damage that can't be purged or blocked.

So if you can't understand that very important fact of this debate, to be totally honest I'm starting to question your Hot Oil skills. How many can u work at once on top one of the grates. Me it's 4, 5, maybe 6, except all the time somebody jumps on one of mine and I hit A while they're manning it and I end up jumping off the platform. I admit that's where my skills as a Sieger fall short

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Yeah they need to go back to Fungal Grotto and learn how to play from my old pal Kra'agh

So do you wear that Siegemaster set?

Oh my, want to know my build so I can teach you and the other guy? But I'm not as knowledgeable as you. So

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

So when you claim that the build is just oh so powerful and uncounterable, but I can just roll, I can just stealth, I can just block and stack shields, I can heal. And I've done it, I cannot understand it.

Look I dont mean to put down my Siege Specialists, we love them, I used to run a Hot Oil Dumping Training Academy in Grahtwood and I alone have repeatedly called for Coldfire Oils. Nobody loves their Siegers like I do

But Ele Sus doesn't make a noise, has a tiny animation, can't be blocked or roll dodged, and with SLS does a WHALLOP of up front instant DoT damage that can't be purged or blocked.

So if you can't understand that very important fact of this debate, to be totally honest I'm starting to question your Hot Oil skills. How many can u work at once on top one of the grates. Me it's 4, 5, maybe 6, except all the time somebody jumps on one of mine and I hit A while they're manning it and I end up jumping off the platform. I admit that's where my skills as a Sieger fall short

"A wollop of damage" yeah, sounds like a build decision costing you to me. Because I think the damage is a joke and widly overstated. Then again, I'm not running vamp.

And, here's the thing: first it was complaining about pulse gank, now we've started reaching into someone spamming elemental drain?

Just heal. If it does that much damage to you where you can't heal, how are you surviving any other damage in the game in PvP right now?

If you're telling me that one guy spamming that skill is putting extreme pressure on you to the point you can't just CC, immobolize, use invis pot, kill them, outheal it, etc. -- what build are you running that isn't capable of doing that?

Not even once has anyone been able to spam that skill and kill me on live. Sorry can't understand it. Thinking about it in any context and literally playing Cyrodiil and even duels, it doesn't happen the way you describe or anyone else is describing that claims it does. I just heal up, and if not just use stealth.

So what you do Siege Duels? That's right up my alley

Which build can't counter it, nearly all of them, thats the point of this thread.

You haven't experienced it but you deny our experience. What gives you such insight to our experience?

Urzigurumash wrote: »

So what you do Siege Duels? That's right up my alley

Which build can't counter it, nearly all of them, thats the point of this thread.

You haven't experienced it but you deny our experience. What gives you such insight to our experience?

False, even the thread gave concrete examples. Want one that can counter it? Take back all of your insults and I will think about posting it.

Luneca wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

So what you do Siege Duels? That's right up my alley

Which build can't counter it, nearly all of them, thats the point of this thread.

You haven't experienced it but you deny our experience. What gives you such insight to our experience?

False, even the thread gave concrete examples. Want one that can counter it? Take back all of your insults and I will think about posting it.

K I'm sorry I was just messing with you, claiming all you do is siege.

What tricks you got? And dont say Siegemaster

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

as always so much comes down to content and playstyle. We can see we have a dedicated sieger saying melee and ranged damage, counterable and uncounterable damage are the same, well that makes sense when you all you do is siege since you're not encountering any damage 😂

And yet someone that only fires siege 99% of the time can still fight the gankers, kill them, and avoid their damage when the supposed self-proclaimed "skilled" and knowledgeable players cannot. They can't find the roll button, they can't use a invis pot the moment they hear the sound, they crutch on add-ons (I don't) and can't roll when the game tells them to, etc.

It really is a joke.

Kinda hard to get hit by gankers or anyone for that matter when you are sieging from atop a keep wall where abilities can’t target you no ?

TBH I've been seeing the low HP gankers start to transition over to high hp attrition tanks, while still using pulse/ele/shattered fate in 4v4 BG's.

Probably because they kept getting clapped.

React wrote: »

This is just a bad take. When the only possible counterplay to something is "build tankier/increase your health/equip this 5pc set", that thing doesn't have any skill based counterplay. It isn't creating some unique or interesting variety in defensive options - it's telling everyone "hey, raise your HP to 40k and equip this 5p set or you're going to get one tapped by a guy 28 meters away in stealth with minimal effort".

You're being completely silly with a ridiculously bad take yourself when you run around on a DK with 40K resistances and 4K crit resist and Leap people from 40 meters away and then do one AoE ability on them to kill them. You're doing the EXACT same thing but abusing resistances instead of crouching. Definition of hypocrisy.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Is anybody down playing the strength of this ring able to provide numbers justifying their position? Or gameplay showing they can do it just as well with Monomyth?

Sorry for delay and aids mistake quote. Also forgot in other post, Snipe has a guaranteed status effect duh woops.
We are kinda assuming/gambling of do we think we are gonna get crits or status effects more often but since the burst prep version uses Crystal Weapon line and light armor, they should definitely be above 30% crit chance.

These are just vamp slaps from me hitting a pvp target dummy though keep that in mind
Shattered 9369crit +853hemor
Monomyth 10952crit +496hemor
Monomyth's burst ability hit ~1500 harder whereas ~350weaker on the status effect but we also know the extra status effect from the light attack in Shattered is ~1200

Snipe + Crystal Weapon + Spammable, usually force pulse. (Overload debatable)
I didn't wanna test super accurately, hella time to put into that, but just replacing numbers with slaps
Shattered mythic: 9369+853(poison in Snipe) + 9369 + 9369 + 1200 = 30160. If we assume the damage difference gain with Shattered mythic is ~600 on any status effect besides hemor, poison and poison because I think those hit lesser, we'd need to proc ~5-6 status effects to proc against these numbers but more real number would probably be ~1-3
Other benefits: Gain when something does proc status effect. Concuss GOD roll from mythic light attack to give minor vuln at start of combo is HNGHGH.
Monomyth: 10952 + 496(poison in Snipe) + 10952 + 10952 = 33352.
Other benefits: buffing any crits besides the big abilities. Minor Berserk in non-crits at least

This is not saying that Monomyth is 100% better all the time than Shattered Paths though. The odds of everything critting is still low in both builds but crits should happen more often than proccing a status effect and you'd be relying on that force pulse cast that comes at the end iirc as a hail mary with Shattered Path.
There is another similar issue too, again not super testing it, but same issue of since most damage in burst version is being put into abilities. Draugrkin loses value and Shattered Fate gains value but should be same thing of where it balances out and they'll be super close, especially with force pulse.
draugrkin 10645 +647
shattered 11405 + 564.

Other stuff to point out:
1.) People say they got hit for this number, other says different number. In the Spam version you're having Winter's Embrace for Chilled status effect damage and Earthen Heart for 100 damage done (and 10% damage done but that's for long war fights/bg's)for all your small hitters. The burst version 100% has Herald and Dark Magic for sure so they definitely lose one of those lines for their status effects to hit as hard as a spam version.
1.a)HUGE NOTE FOR BURST USERS: If you are using Winterborn you should be using Winter's Embrace that way the odds of Chilled happening is in your favor, like if your 3rd skill line you chose was Storm Calling-odds of Winterborn proccing Chilled are low.
2.) Again assuming Monomyth is instantaneous
3.) High ranged undodgeable damage existed for long time through Old Jesus Beam on below 50% hp people before it got changed for subclassing. Hard to give a number on that though due to being execute.
4.) At very least I hope you see Monomyth as being super similar in damage.
5.) I can actually add a bit more burst to the spam version just by changing my 5pc set. Again dps focused so I had Threads of War on but Hrothgar has guaranteed Chill and Splattering has 2 status effects.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

But burst has been getting stronger and stronger ever since Champion 2.0 came out

Hell Nah, Biggest thing I remember is around introduction of Oakensoul. But I remember key takeway around that time was ZOS increasing damage reduction in battle spirit from 40something% to 50% then Oakensoul got nerfed and now you were dealing less damage before Oakensoul was introduced. Then Light/Heavy attack spell/weapon damage scaling got nerfed. Then sorta recently ZOS changed how their math work for equations which they said shouldn't have effected much, but just sus on my POV. Introduction of Rallying Cry. Introduction of Arcanist giving group minor evasion.
This all effected burst damage from a ganker's POV but biggest redemption was Subclassing giving gankers Overload + Crystal Weapon + Banner(now nerfed) but that more of made up for lost damage over the years. Subclassing helped In-combat damage more though.
I remember when I had Javelins hit above for 10k crit now it's lucky if it actually breaks 8k.

React wrote: »

You made a point earlier suggesting that Ball groupers are the ones complaining about this build, but truthfully I think they probably are the least impacted by it.

Ehh, forgot what ballgroup it was, but we were in a group in Cyro and Metrc's I think lol was pulling people from the ballgroup and our group deleted the person, so they're not avoiding it but odds of a ballgroup encountering a group of all in high damage people with a puller is pretty low. Do have recording of it.

I am a brawler stamsorc main specialized in 1vX content. Since U49 dropped, I have completely switched over to ganking for enjoyment because fighting against good DKs is currently impossible. You know what I noticed? Ganking is extremely fun, but it's also one of the easiest ways to PvP and has very little downside.

Like, I'm not even a pulse ganker or abusing the Shattered Path Signet mythic. I'm literally subclassing 1 line only, and using Cwep + Sundering Soul + Overload for my ganks, and I can still 1 shot people below 35k HP. The only players I cannot 1 shot are those with high HP or high mitigation.

My K/D ratio has significantly improved ever since I made the swap. Most of my kills are actual killing blows, and I'm dying less while getting more kills than my brawler stamsorc.

With that said, I think my current ganker is still no where near as cancerous as Signet gank builds tho. Most of my 1 shot potential comes from 4 abilities, so if you avoid even just 1, I instantly lose the upper hand. Meanwhile, a pulse blade ganker stacks so many instances of damage that there's practically zero difference whether you outplayed the ganker or not. This is unironically the same reason why WW is over performing on PTS. Both specs technically don't do big burst, but they stack an absurd amount of tiny damage procs to create pseudo burst. This has to go.

BigPlays420 wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I am a brawler stamsorc main specialized in 1vX content. Since U49 dropped, I have completely switched over to ganking for enjoyment because fighting against good DKs is currently impossible. You know what I noticed? Ganking is extremely fun, but it's also one of the easiest ways to PvP and has very little downside.

Like, I'm not even a pulse ganker or abusing the Shattered Path Signet mythic. I'm literally subclassing 1 line only, and using Cwep + Sundering Soul + Overload for my ganks, and I can still 1 shot people below 35k HP. The only players I cannot 1 shot are those with high HP or high mitigation.

My K/D ratio has significantly improved ever since I made the swap. Most of my kills are actual killing blows, and I'm dying less while getting more kills than my brawler stamsorc.

With that said, I think my current ganker is still no where near as cancerous as Signet gank builds tho. Most of my 1 shot potential comes from 4 abilities, so if you avoid even just 1, I instantly lose the upper hand. Meanwhile, a pulse blade ganker stacks so many instances of damage that there's practically zero difference whether you outplayed the ganker or not. This is unironically the same reason why WW is over performing on PTS. Both specs technically don't do big burst, but they stack an absurd amount of tiny damage procs to create pseudo burst. This has to go.

No, it has to be nerfed. The same way DK has been overperforming this entire patch, and the same way shield stacking gives ball groups absurd survivability.

Balance can exist in this game. There is no reason to completely gut every playstyle that overperforms. The goal should be to nerf it into a healthier state, not delete it outright. Pulse ganking, the mythic, DK, WW, and shield stacking are all examples of things that should be addressed because they are pushing PvP into unhealthy extremes. Tune them down, keep the playstyles viable, but stop letting them dominate the game in their current state.

I agree, we really can't wait 2 years for all the classes to be done or whatever. DK needs a hotfix nerf like tonight, along with SLS and CW+Treatise stacking.

Overall imo doubling the effect of Battlespirit for both Damage and Healing would help bring the game back to the sort of diverse and tactical combat of yesteryear rather than the simplistic nukefest of today. Or healfest. It's one or the other for me since I'm a 4v4 main.

BigPlays420 wrote: »

No, it has to be nerfed. The same way DK has been overperforming this entire patch, and the same way shield stacking gives ball groups absurd survivability.

Balance can exist in this game. There is no reason to completely gut every playstyle that overperforms. The goal should be to nerf it into a healthier state, not delete it outright. Pulse ganking, the mythic, DK, WW, and shield stacking are all examples of things that should be addressed because they are pushing PvP into unhealthy extremes. Tune them down, keep the playstyles viable, but stop letting them dominate the game in their current state.

Fantastic. Then Tell ZOS to first prevent shield stacking, second tone down DK and werewolf and THEN after those are all fixed, go after the essence of pulse ganking which is subclassing, not the mythic. Then go test the mythic and you'll see it's fine, that it was just treatise+CW (and both class lines passives) that make up the basis of the pulse gank.

But telling ZOS to "fix pulse ganking" before they tone down DK, werewolf, and shield stacking is just going to drive MORE players away from the game because shield stacking (and Scribing in general) with sub-classing piled on top of it created the silly tank metas that drove all the players away in the first place. Pulse ganking is just a reaction, not a cause.

React can jabber on about false equivalencies all he wants. Cyro was on its way to becoming a ghost town on every server with 400 million unkillable DKs running around everywhere. And what did improved pulse ganking do? Make DKs Afraid Again.

Which is why all the streamers and their ilk are on here crying about Pulse Ganking now. It was a reaction to overturned DKs. Nothing more.

At least there's 3 competitive specs I guess, definitely better than 1