Pulse Ganker and Shattered Mythic

TheAwesomeChimpanzee

Antrox41 wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Antrox41 wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Antrox41 wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Sedare38 wrote: »

DrGIggles80 wrote: »

To all those saying it's a problem with monomyth you are wrong . Funny how monomyth been around forever smd these pulse gankers haven't been a problem. As soon as signet hits they are a major problem..

This is a slightly incorrect take and I wouldn't call monomyth a problem nor the shattered signet. It's mostly been monomyth + subclassing (again this is a misnomer as what zos introduced is multi-classing since a class is taking on lines from another class but that's neither here nor there) with recuperative + crystal weapons being the main combo and this has been going on for months with monomyth.

Pulse builds in one form or another have existed prior to both the monomyth (and the signet) and subclassing as I've been using a version for years now. Subclassing empowered a version of the build even more, as did monomyth/signet.

Indeed. Like you, I have been pulse ganking since long before subclassing, and it was subclassing that pushed the gank into “1 GCD” territory with the C-Weap + Treatise combo.

Before subclassing, the build was more of a fun, frontline, spammy setup. It really only worked when you were either group ganking or trying to pressure someone down over time, and it did a good job at that. It was still an effective way to disrupt organized groups, log in, and have fun zerging the map down.

I will not deny that the gank is stronger than it probably should be, but knowing ZOS, whenever they decide to pull the trigger, they will more than likely completely nuke the playstyle, as they usually do with anything capable of standing up to a ball group, usually at the request of ball group players who would rather complain than adapt.

There is nothing to adapt to when there is practically zero counter play, especially when you have 5 people doing the same thing and 1 person pulling you... Tell me oh wise one, what is solution to "adapt" to getting pulled and 1 shot from 4 pulse gankers?

Pop a Detect potion and run them down. The build is an absolute glass cannon that cannot fight back in an even fight against 99% of the builds or comps in the game.

Do you honestly think a pulse ganking squad can do anything other than zerg? That squad cannot leave the frontlines. They have to stay with the faction stack to take down a ball group, and they need to coordinate while standing inside 50+ players all trying to run down the same 12-man group in order to actually be oppressive and get results.

Are you really trying to say that if you GvGed a pulse ganking group, the ball group would be at a disadvantage? Because that is just not true. In an even fight, the ball group comes out on top every time.

Now, if you as a ball group player feel entitled to fight 12vFaction stack and pretend that is healthy for the game, that is on you. But the counterplay is simple: stack with your faction the same way they do and, poof, you will not die to that squad again.

Wait, you are already doing that. My bad.

Yeah they get one shot by a single leap then comeback 30 seconds later because of a camp or they get rezzed by the other 4 the scurry away like deer in headlights. Also to prove that gank squads dont need a zerg, I have recordings of a specific group of these clowns that do nothing but follow around the same ballgroup for hours on end. I have even have recordings of them 6v1 following and ganking individual group members who are just running around solo in cyro. Its borderline cringe behavior. Also no ballgroup GvGs a group of gankers, dont know where the hell you got that from. In fact, the only thing they do is actually disrupt GvGs which I also have recordings of because they do it constantly.

I find the vendetta against ballgroups laughably palpable, so much so that the solution that people like you want against them is to basically create a completely broken and utterly zero counterplay scenario which creates unbalance not just against one thing but all of pvp as a whole. We saw this with Blightseed back before ZoS decided the set was way to overtuned for PVP.

You seem frustrated that you and your group got PvPed in an open-world PvP environment.

Ball groups are the strongest possible way to play Cyrodiil, so disrupting them is obviously going to be a priority for anyone with a brain. That is the entire point. You even prove it yourself when you say they do not GvG gankers. Of course they do not, because they would win. The GvG example was never me saying ball groups are actively setting up fights with gank squads; it was just to show the relative power level in an even, controlled fight.

A pulse gank squad relies on numbers, open fields, and the frontline environment to kill or seriously disrupt a ball group that actually knows what it is doing. Without that, they can slow them down, annoy them, maybe pick someone off, but they are not beating a proper 12-man comp in an even fight.

And please, for the love of God, do not call a PvP encounter “cringe.” You are in Cyrodiil. People are going to PvP you.

It is cringe if its clearly a vendetta bias against a single group, these were the same people running around spamming blightseed stacks.

How would you like it if someone followed you around for hours on end, pulling you constantly and ganking you with 6 people? My guess is you wouldn't. And yet you are over here acting like disrupting ball groups like this with a group of clown gankers is the solution to stopping them?

You see what i mean when I said how laughable this hate is towards ballgroups and how almost all solutions are way over the top and extreme to an extent that either breaks the entire balance of pvp as a whole or just is borderline toxic behavior with using known exploits to go against them.

So basically rather then address the underlining problem you'd rather condone terrible balancing and zero counterplay solutions.

Also stop with the passive aggressive tone, don't what you achieve by acting like that.

My apologies if you feel attacked. That is not my intention, but you do seem very defensive about both my replies and pulse ganking squads in general.

If a squad is focusing ball groups, it is usually for a reason. Everyone knows how absurdly strong that playstyle is, and disrupting it is one of the best things you can do to stop your faction from losing keeps or getting gated. That is a valid tactic in Cyrodiil, just like anything else, including ball grouping.

Do you think the 50 pugs being farmed by a ball group on a third floor for 30 minutes straight are having a good time? Ball groups also abuse game mechanics to disrupt and completely shut down other playstyles. The gankers are doing the same thing back, just in a different way.

I think you are taking this too personally and looking at it only through the lens of someone who plays in a ball group. And no, again, there is counterplay: stack with your own faction, run detection, position better, and punish them when they overcommit.

You keep talking about balance, but you are arguing from inside a 12-man ball group, which is by far one of the strongest and most oppressive ways to play the game in Cyrodiil. Acting like pulse gankers are uniquely unhealthy while defending ball groups as normal gameplay is just selective outrage.

Antrox41

I mean you were being passive aggressive way before I even entered the discussion, don't act like its exclusive only to me...

Also, where am I defending ball groups? Where? Show me please...

I said "how almost all solutions are way over the top and extreme to an extent that either breaks the entire balance of pvp as a whole or just is borderline toxic behavior with using known exploits to go against them. So basically rather then address the underlining problem you'd rather condone terrible balancing and zero counterplay solutions."

The solutions so far against groups have been equally unhealthy to the game. So don't put words in my mouth saying I am "defending from inside a 12 man group" and act like it isn't.

The solution to groups should not be a double edged sword.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee

Antrox41 wrote: »

I mean you were being passive aggressive way before I even entered the discussion, don't act like its exclusive only to me...

Also, where am I defending ball groups? Where? Show me please...

I said "how almost all solutions are way over the top and extreme to an extent that either breaks the entire balance of pvp as a whole or just is borderline toxic behavior with using known exploits to go against them. So basically rather then address the underlining problem you'd rather condone terrible balancing and zero counterplay solutions."

The solutions so far against groups have been equally unhealthy to the game. So don't put words in my mouth saying I am "defending from inside a 12 man group" and act like it isn't.

The solution to groups should not be a double edged sword.

I am not putting words in your mouth. I am responding to the framing you keep using.

When every tool used to punish ball groups gets described as “toxic,” “zero counterplay,” “cringe,” or “bad for PvP,” while the ball group playstyle itself is treated as just normal Cyrodiil gameplay, that absolutely comes across as defending ball groups, whether you intend it that way or not.

Nobody is saying the solution should be broken or that exploits should be allowed. The point is that organized 12-man groups are already one of the strongest and most oppressive things in Cyrodiil, so any realistic counter to them is probably going to feel unpleasant. That does not automatically make it unhealthy. It means the playstyle being countered is extremely strong.

And again, there is counterplay. Stack with your faction, use detection, stay tighter, punish overextensions, and do not expect to freely farm open-world PvP without people adapting to stop you.

The solution should not be a double-edged sword, sure. But it also should not be “ball groups get to dominate every open-world situation unless another ball group shows up.”

Mackinsar

This needs to be nerfed ASAP. One minimally skilled pulse ganker can pick off a group me by one and instakill players with 35K hit points and resists.This nonsense is obviously an exploit and just as obviously needs to be nerfed into the ground as it is totally unbalanced.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee

Mackinsar wrote: »

This needs to be nerfed ASAP. One minimally skilled pulse ganker can pick off a group me by one and instakill players with 35K hit points and resists.This nonsense is obviously an exploit and just as obviously needs to be nerfed into the ground as it is totally unbalanced.

Unless your group is incredibly subpar, this is simply not true. A single pulse ganker does not have enough damage to pick people off one by one inside a properly built and prepared group. If that is happening, then the issue is not just the gank.

Again, I do think pulse ganking is strong and probably deserves a nerf. The problem is that a lot of ball group players are clearly biased on this topic because it is one of the few things that can actually shut them down when coordinated properly. Instead of asking for a reasonable adjustment, most of what I see is people advocating for the playstyle to be completely gutted.

That is the hypocrisy here. Ball groups rarely question how overtuned and oppressive their own playstyle is, but the moment another playstyle disrupts them, suddenly it is “zero counterplay,” “obviously an exploit,” and needs to be nerfed into the ground.

RaidingTraiding

I think it's a bit detracting to have this post devolve into another nerf ball groups thread. There are plenty of posts that address that and along with whatever aspect of that playstyle people don't like, and has been beaten to death at this point, regardless of its validity.

warm_blanket

There are a few pieces contributing to this, roughly in order of significance imo:

Signet mythic - Seems unlikely to be touched. Battlespirit tweaks are already on the item though, so they can change the numbers very easily and would encourage them to do so. It's overperforming in general.

Ele sus - A ranged zero cost debuff+damage spammable that can't be blocked, dodged, or reflected. Long overdue for a change and will likely be revisited during the destro line refresh. Until then the simplest complete solution is to remove the initial status damage tick from this ability.

Stacking instant procs - Evergreen issue. There may just have to be a global queue all damage procs are put in so they're forced to fire sequentially. Could put small delays in problematic combos as they arise, but will always be one patch or meta shift away from having to do the same thing again.

Force shock - Ganking with this skill has been around for a very long time. Seeing some guy hop around in DB robes trying to zap you is kind of iconic. Comboing it with snipe is also very old, just not as popular until recently. AFAIK there's no easy way to touch this ability without changing it fundamentally. Probably the least disruptive change would be to give it the same cast time as snipe.

Sneak stealth - All stealth based builds will take a hit in u50 due to the zero downtime detect pot werewolf is getting. That effect will be too strong for the cost when ran in a zerg, but generally a good idea to have more sources of detect for players to pick from so long as they have a proper opportunity cost.

Personally out of all these I find ele sus spamming extremely degenerate due to how it collapses your response options. Even if it had a high cost (it's completely free!) it still shouldn't exist.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

I think it's a bit detracting to have this post devolve into another nerf ball groups thread. There are plenty of posts that address that and along with whatever aspect of that playstyle people don't like, and has been beaten to death at this point, regardless of its validity.

You are right that this should not just turn into another generic nerf ball groups thread, and I do not want that to be the focus either.

That said, it is hard not to bring up the context when a lot of the loudest voices asking for this playstyle to be completely gutted are ball group players, who are naturally going to be biased against one of the few tools that can actually disrupt them.

I agree the main topic should stay focused on pulse ganking itself, and I have already said I think it is too strong and should be adjusted. I just do not think the discussion is complete if we ignore why this playstyle became so relevant in the first place, and why certain players are pushing so hard for it to be removed rather than reasonably tuned.

sulima

React wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All, wanted to follow up here. We have seen the feedback around Pulse Ganker. We know the combat team is investigating and we are sending this thread and video along to assist with their review. Nothing to update now on next steps, but the feedback is known. Appreciate everyone sharing their feedback on this and overall meta concerns.

Great to hear this - I just hope the overall feedback is clear that this isn't just an issue with the pulse ganker setup, but also status effects overperforming as a whole when paired with the new mythic. Especially in the case of elemental susceptibility, which has been elevated so much that it can now be used as a "spammable" that is free to cast and both undodgeable/unblockable.

Instead of scaling off Ultimate, this mythic should be redesigned as an escalating engagement tool using a 'Time-in-Combat' tracking mechanic: Increases your status effect damage against players by 5% per second you remain in continuous combat with them, up to a maximum of 75%. This bonus resets if you do not deal or take damage for 4 seconds.'This solves both major PvP pain points simultaneously:It kills Pulse Ganking: Because the bonus starts at 0%, gankers get no benefit from stealth. They cannot one-shot you.It counters the 1vX Stall: When a tanky player tries to drag 6–8 people on a 5-minute chase around a tower door, the scaling DoT and status effect pressure will steadily ramp up to un-healable levels. It punishes passive stalling and forces active engagement.

React

sulima wrote: »

Instead of scaling off Ultimate, this mythic should be redesigned as an escalating engagement tool using a 'Time-in-Combat' tracking mechanic: Increases your status effect damage against players by 5% per second you remain in continuous combat with them, up to a maximum of 75%. This bonus resets if you do not deal or take damage for 4 seconds.'This solves both major PvP pain points simultaneously:It kills Pulse Ganking: Because the bonus starts at 0%, gankers get no benefit from stealth. They cannot one-shot you.It counters the 1vX Stall: When a tanky player tries to drag 6–8 people on a 5-minute chase around a tower door, the scaling DoT and status effect pressure will steadily ramp up to un-healable levels. It punishes passive stalling and forces active engagement.

The game doesn't need more tools to make it easier for players to win via numbers advantage, especially in regards to "xv1" play against single players. The numbers advantage itself is already an extreme force multiplier for individual strength via cross healing, buff sets, shared debuffs, higher pressure, increased stun/root/snare frequency, body blocking, etc. Especially when the ultimate counterplay to those "tower kiting solo players" already exists - you can simply choose not to chase them around towers.

Status effects never should be doing "un-healable" levels of damage (and on live they currently are). There is no counterplay to status effects. They are applied for free alongside your normal rotation as "procs" that just occur, or even more egregiously when spammed via elemental susceptibility. Any damage that aims to reach "un-healable" levels needs to have adequate, skill-based counterplay.

For example, if we're arguing that there should be strong DOT or defile tools to counter high healing - those should be short duration/difficult to apply or maintain. Not "free" instances of damage that you gain for doing absolutely nothing special.

sulima

React wrote: »

sulima wrote: »

Instead of scaling off Ultimate, this mythic should be redesigned as an escalating engagement tool using a 'Time-in-Combat' tracking mechanic: Increases your status effect damage against players by 5% per second you remain in continuous combat with them, up to a maximum of 75%. This bonus resets if you do not deal or take damage for 4 seconds.'This solves both major PvP pain points simultaneously:It kills Pulse Ganking: Because the bonus starts at 0%, gankers get no benefit from stealth. They cannot one-shot you.It counters the 1vX Stall: When a tanky player tries to drag 6–8 people on a 5-minute chase around a tower door, the scaling DoT and status effect pressure will steadily ramp up to un-healable levels. It punishes passive stalling and forces active engagement.

The game doesn't need more tools to make it easier for players to win via numbers advantage, especially in regards to "xv1" play against single players. The numbers advantage itself is already an extreme force multiplier for individual strength via cross healing, buff sets, shared debuffs, higher pressure, increased stun/root/snare frequency, body blocking, etc. Especially when the ultimate counterplay to those "tower kiting solo players" already exists - you can simply choose not to chase them around towers.

Status effects never should be doing "un-healable" levels of damage, like you're suggesting. There is no counterplay to status effects. They are applied for free alongside your normal rotation as "procs" that just occur, or even more egregiously when spammed via elemental susceptibility. Any damage that aims to reach "un-healable" levels needs to have adequate, skill-based counterplay.

For example, if we're arguing that there should be strong DOT or defile tools to counter high healing - those should be short duration/difficult to apply or maintain. Not "free" instances of damage that you gain for doing absolutely nothing special.

Increases your status effect damage against that player by 5% per second you remain in continuous combat with them, up to a maximum of 75%. This damage bonus is reduced by 15% for every other source of Shattered Focus currently active on the target.

The game absolutely does not need another brainless zerg tool. However, the current reality of 'walking away' from a tower loop completely surrenders objective map control to passive stall tactics.

Alchimiste1

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All, wanted to follow up here. We have seen the feedback around Pulse Ganker. We know the combat team is investigating and we are sending this thread and video along to assist with their review. Nothing to update now on next steps, but the feedback is known. Appreciate everyone sharing their feedback on this and overall meta concerns.

Thank you Mr Kevin. Greatly appreciated . Keep us informed please

ioResult

warm_blanket wrote: »

There are a few pieces contributing to this, roughly in order of significance imo:
Sneak stealth - All stealth based builds will take a hit in u50 due to the zero downtime detect pot werewolf is getting. That effect will be too strong for the cost when ran in a zerg, but generally a good idea to have more sources of detect for players to pick from so long as they have a proper opportunity cost..

ZOS added stronger detect pots, Sentry set, having a DoT on you, having a Dot on someone else, abilities to reveal you, poisons to reveal you, and then completely nerfed Shadowy Disguise into the ground and you say the game needs MORE sources of detect? Are you joking? No other class has had their core mechanics (stealth and single target crit/crit damage) completely nerfed into the ground because people can't figure out how to use detect potions. We're at the point where "Nightblades" are not using a single other class ability other than Spec bow. Need another source of detect. Gimme a break.

Luneca

ioResult wrote: »

warm_blanket wrote: »

There are a few pieces contributing to this, roughly in order of significance imo:
Sneak stealth - All stealth based builds will take a hit in u50 due to the zero downtime detect pot werewolf is getting. That effect will be too strong for the cost when ran in a zerg, but generally a good idea to have more sources of detect for players to pick from so long as they have a proper opportunity cost..

ZOS added stronger detect pots, Sentry set, having a DoT on you, having a Dot on someone else, abilities to reveal you, poisons to reveal you, and then completely nerfed Shadowy Disguise into the ground and you say the game needs MORE sources of detect? Are you joking? No other class has had their core mechanics (stealth and single target crit/crit damage) completely nerfed into the ground because people can't figure out how to use detect potions. We're at the point where "Nightblades" are not using a single other class ability other than Spec bow. Need another source of detect. Gimme a break.

I play night blade and think there needs to be more sources of detect, particularly as long as you can force miss going into stealth and drop damage. And do not say it doesn't happen because I do it all the time.

I can never understand the notion that more sources of detect counters Nightblade as if stealth is the only thing the class has, when it has one of the best skill trees in the entire game. Was top class for nearly the entire game's existence. Class set had to be nerfed because there was godmode recently with the Shadow Dancer set, etc. -- do we really need an accounting?

Stealth has no real counterplay and it is the ultimate issue with these kinds of builds. That's reality. Stealth makes you literally untouchable as long as the person cannot find where you are. What other mechanic is that powerful in the game?

Detect pots and reveal skills are not actual counters either when someone can use them right in your face and it won't reveal you. (and you can force miss that too) Last I checked, ZOS does not even sell basic CC/detect potions at the Cyrodiil vendor when stealth is one of the most powerful PvP mechanics, if not the most powerful one, in the game.

You can't even argue that AoEs are a counter because not all AoEs are targetable, and not all AoEs can reach the range someone attacking from stealth can use to attack you. In fact, most AoEs never reach that range. You'd have to be firing siege. No joke!

Also wearing a 5 piece to counter a single mechanic is a huge opportunity cost, esp. when that 5 piece takes an action that takes time, doesn't have 100% uptime anyway, and extremely long cool down.

I've been reading these forums for a long time and can't understand why people continue to pretend the above isn't true.

The way how stealth works and has been working in the game isn't a good and fair mechanic. That's the truth whether anyone wants to admit it or not. Stealth is also not confined to one class -- it's a general mechanic that is problematic in more than one scenario beyond NB. It's just that NB happens to have a skill that guarantees crit after leaving it.

Xarc

SundarahFr3akinrican wrote: »

Is ZOS doing anything about this? 170k DPS combo on the 321k dummy? That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen.

This is starting to show up in my BGs and it is astronomically stronger than anything I have ever encountered. what the heck is going on?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_COx3sCUQpg

ESO's tombstone has just been officially erected, RIP.

xylena

Antrox41 wrote: »

There is nothing to adapt to when there is practically zero counter play, especially when you have 5 people doing the same thing and 1 person pulling you... Tell me oh wise one, what is solution to "adapt" to getting pulled and 1 shot from 4 pulse gankers?

group with 5 pulse gankers, pull and 1 shot them first /s

glad the devs are on it, this is exactly what we were trying to warn everyone about

Major_Mangle

Shattered path signet, while being ridiculously overtuned on both PvP and PvE, isn't the core issue.

The core issue are status effects dealing too much damage and skills like elemental susceptibility having zero drawbacks. The suggestions made by @React and @Turtle_Bot earlier in the thread hits the mark on changes that should be made.

P.S Before the PvE crowd jumps me for this comment, stop defending clearly overtuned tools that isn't healthy for the longevity for the game. PvE needs balance adjustments regularly just as much as PvP does in order to stay interesting and healthy. Just because "nPc's DoEsN't CoMpLaIn" doesn't mean it isn't overtuned and doesn't deserves adjustments.

xylena

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The core issue are status effects dealing too much damage and skills like elemental susceptibility having zero drawbacks

The amount of pressure damage is fine, but they shouldn't all be ticking immediately like this. Ele Sus is fine as a dot/debuff, but if it's being used as an immediate direct spammable, something is seriously wrong (it's the SPS ring everyone knows that by now). PvP pressure builds need access to ramping sustained damage, not immediate ticks that enable other degeneracy.

Nordstern

If ZOS cared about a healthy game they would deactivate SPS while they are "working on it"..

Major_Mangle

xylena wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The core issue are status effects dealing too much damage and skills like elemental susceptibility having zero drawbacks

The amount of pressure damage is fine, but they shouldn't all be ticking immediately like this. Ele Sus is fine as a dot/debuff, but if it's being used as an immediate direct spammable, something is seriously wrong (it's the SPS ring everyone knows that by now). PvP pressure builds need access to ramping sustained damage, not immediate ticks that enable other degeneracy.

I´m fine with pressure builds existing (rather those builds having their pressure from actual DoT´s and somewhat better thought out mechanical gameplay rather than status effect/proc stacking), but at what point does pressure stop being "pressure" and start becoming more or less equal to burst? (more of a rhetorical question really). You more or less said it yourself (kinda), when you get hit with 15-20 different instances of "pressure" in the same GCD, its all of a sudden damage that starts to rival that of burstplaystyles (and I´m not talking about the SPS gankers).

I´m not exactly sure about the best cause of action, but something needs to be adjusted when it comes to status effect damage and elemental susceptibility. The playstyle playing around status effects should exist, but it shouldn´t be some free byproduct "proc set" as it currently is, with or without SPS.

CoolAsh

Luneca wrote: »

CoolAsh wrote: »

Lowering damage and healing output while increasing maximum health would solve the burst kill meta, as well as the issues with unkillable tanks and those annoying PvP healers.

For people that want that, there's already Vengeance.

The damage in Revenge mode could even be lowered a bit further. I hope Battlegrounds can be adjusted the same way.

gariondavey

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All, wanted to follow up here. We have seen the feedback around Pulse Ganker. We know the combat team is investigating and we are sending this thread and video along to assist with their review. Nothing to update now on next steps, but the feedback is known. Appreciate everyone sharing their feedback on this and overall meta concerns.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno
I 2nd what react says
The signet is overtuned, and is allowing ele sus to be a spammable. While the signet does need reworking or nerfing for pvp, ele sus has long been in need of a nerf too.

Ele sus should make you more likely to apply a status effect when you do corresponding elemental damage of the appropriate type. It shouldn't apply the status effects repeatedly over time and initially.

This would mean ele sus into force pulse could apply burning, concussed and chilled, but that you can't just spam ele sus with signet and have a free cost spammable.

Force pulse isn't the issue here, ele sus and signet are.

acastanza_ESO

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All, wanted to follow up here. We have seen the feedback around Pulse Ganker. We know the combat team is investigating and we are sending this thread and video along to assist with their review. Nothing to update now on next steps, but the feedback is known. Appreciate everyone sharing their feedback on this and overall meta concerns.

These people have started running as a group for when their already disgusting 35k+ solo gank isn't cutting it.
One person chains you from max range/stealth, the rest pulse you midair so you die before you can do literally anything about it. It's abusive plain and simple, and ZOS's failure to immediately adjust it as a preventative measure is pretty insulting. Any other game that has PVP would've shut this down inside a week as part of routine balance maintenance.

Said the ball group player

There is more counterplay to ballgrouping than ever before. This nonsense has absolutely none, and the comparison shows a deep unseriousness that is frankly completely invalidating to every argument you're making in this thread.
It is extremely easy to outrange, outsiege, outlast, and evict, a ballgroup. Max range gank squads backed by a troll endlessly spamming chains gives you absolutely no counterplay. It's abusive plain and simple. Furthermore, the level of individually targeted griefing that some of the players doing this are engaging in (including provable, documented stream sniping) has full on crossed into ToS violating targeted harassment.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All, wanted to follow up here. We have seen the feedback around Pulse Ganker. We know the combat team is investigating and we are sending this thread and video along to assist with their review. Nothing to update now on next steps, but the feedback is known. Appreciate everyone sharing their feedback on this and overall meta concerns.

These people have started running as a group for when their already disgusting 35k+ solo gank isn't cutting it.
One person chains you from max range/stealth, the rest pulse you midair so you die before you can do literally anything about it. It's abusive plain and simple, and ZOS's failure to immediately adjust it as a preventative measure is pretty insulting. Any other game that has PVP would've shut this down inside a week as part of routine balance maintenance.

Said the ball group player

There is more counterplay to ballgrouping than ever before. This nonsense has absolutely none, and the comparison shows a deep unseriousness that is frankly completely invalidating to every argument you're making in this thread.
It is extremely easy to outrange, outsiege, outlast, and evict, a ballgroup. Max range gank squads backed by a troll endlessly spamming chains gives you absolutely no counterplay. It's abusive plain and simple. Furthermore, the level of individually targeted griefing that some of the players doing this are engaging in (including provable, documented stream sniping) has full on crossed into ToS violating targeted harassment.

Incorrect. I have explained how to counter it multiple times throughout this thread.

Once again, ball group players who almost never set foot outside of their 12-man raid are trying to get anything that actually pressures or counters them nerfed into the ground, while completely ignoring their own crutches.

You can call it “no counterplay” all you want, but that does not make it true. The counterplay has already been explained. The issue is that you do not like the counterplay because it is one of the few things that can actually disrupt the playstyle you benefit from.

acastanza_ESO

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All, wanted to follow up here. We have seen the feedback around Pulse Ganker. We know the combat team is investigating and we are sending this thread and video along to assist with their review. Nothing to update now on next steps, but the feedback is known. Appreciate everyone sharing their feedback on this and overall meta concerns.

These people have started running as a group for when their already disgusting 35k+ solo gank isn't cutting it.
One person chains you from max range/stealth, the rest pulse you midair so you die before you can do literally anything about it. It's abusive plain and simple, and ZOS's failure to immediately adjust it as a preventative measure is pretty insulting. Any other game that has PVP would've shut this down inside a week as part of routine balance maintenance.

Said the ball group player

There is more counterplay to ballgrouping than ever before. This nonsense has absolutely none, and the comparison shows a deep unseriousness that is frankly completely invalidating to every argument you're making in this thread.
It is extremely easy to outrange, outsiege, outlast, and evict, a ballgroup. Max range gank squads backed by a troll endlessly spamming chains gives you absolutely no counterplay. It's abusive plain and simple. Furthermore, the level of individually targeted griefing that some of the players doing this are engaging in (including provable, documented stream sniping) has full on crossed into ToS violating targeted harassment.

Incorrect. I have explained how to counter it multiple times throughout this thread.

Once again, ball group players who almost never set foot outside of their 12-man raid are trying to get anything that actually pressures or counters them nerfed into the ground, while completely ignoring their own crutches.

You can call it “no counterplay” all you want, but that does not make it true. The counterplay has already been explained. The issue is that you do not like the counterplay because it is one of the few things that can actually disrupt the playstyle you benefit from.

"Punishing them when they overcommit" is not counterplay. They stay at max range, with streak to keep them safe, and target a single person and delete them midair when that person is finally chained by their dedicated chain spam bot - again, from max range. THERE IS NO ACTUAL COUNTER PLAY TO THIS. When they can delete 35k health with full raid buffs before you hit the ground. If anything ballgroup players are the LEAST impacted by this because we actually have the health and buffs to have a chance at survival. The only reason you even think that the non-counterplay you've described works is because you're simply not their primary target. That could easily change at their whim. The mechanics they are abusing are broken, plain and simple without actual, meaningful, reactive counterplay. Your insistence to the contrary is straight up pants-on-head.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All, wanted to follow up here. We have seen the feedback around Pulse Ganker. We know the combat team is investigating and we are sending this thread and video along to assist with their review. Nothing to update now on next steps, but the feedback is known. Appreciate everyone sharing their feedback on this and overall meta concerns.

These people have started running as a group for when their already disgusting 35k+ solo gank isn't cutting it.
One person chains you from max range/stealth, the rest pulse you midair so you die before you can do literally anything about it. It's abusive plain and simple, and ZOS's failure to immediately adjust it as a preventative measure is pretty insulting. Any other game that has PVP would've shut this down inside a week as part of routine balance maintenance.

Said the ball group player

There is more counterplay to ballgrouping than ever before. This nonsense has absolutely none, and the comparison shows a deep unseriousness that is frankly completely invalidating to every argument you're making in this thread.
It is extremely easy to outrange, outsiege, outlast, and evict, a ballgroup. Max range gank squads backed by a troll endlessly spamming chains gives you absolutely no counterplay. It's abusive plain and simple. Furthermore, the level of individually targeted griefing that some of the players doing this are engaging in (including provable, documented stream sniping) has full on crossed into ToS violating targeted harassment.

Incorrect. I have explained how to counter it multiple times throughout this thread.

Once again, ball group players who almost never set foot outside of their 12-man raid are trying to get anything that actually pressures or counters them nerfed into the ground, while completely ignoring their own crutches.

You can call it “no counterplay” all you want, but that does not make it true. The counterplay has already been explained. The issue is that you do not like the counterplay because it is one of the few things that can actually disrupt the playstyle you benefit from.

"Punishing them when they overcommit" is not counterplay. They stay at max range, with streak to keep them safe, and target a single person and delete them midair when that person is finally chained by their dedicated chain spam bot - again, from max range. THERE IS NO ACTUAL COUNTER PLAY TO THIS. When they can delete 35k health with full raid buffs before you hit the ground. If anything ballgroup players are the LEAST impacted by this because we actually have the health and buffs to have a chance at survival. The only reason you even think that the non-counterplay you've described works is because you're simply not their primary target. That could easily change at their whim. The mechanics they are abusing are broken, plain and simple without actual, meaningful, reactive counterplay. Your insistence to the contrary is straight up pants-on-head.

Have you actually tried engaging that squad in an even fight, or are you trying to fight them while also tanking the entire faction frontline?

Yeah, thought so.

Once again, this just comes down to ball group players feeling entitled to their 12v80 playstyle and calling anything that punishes it “no counterplay.”

acastanza_ESO

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All, wanted to follow up here. We have seen the feedback around Pulse Ganker. We know the combat team is investigating and we are sending this thread and video along to assist with their review. Nothing to update now on next steps, but the feedback is known. Appreciate everyone sharing their feedback on this and overall meta concerns.

These people have started running as a group for when their already disgusting 35k+ solo gank isn't cutting it.
One person chains you from max range/stealth, the rest pulse you midair so you die before you can do literally anything about it. It's abusive plain and simple, and ZOS's failure to immediately adjust it as a preventative measure is pretty insulting. Any other game that has PVP would've shut this down inside a week as part of routine balance maintenance.

Said the ball group player

There is more counterplay to ballgrouping than ever before. This nonsense has absolutely none, and the comparison shows a deep unseriousness that is frankly completely invalidating to every argument you're making in this thread.
It is extremely easy to outrange, outsiege, outlast, and evict, a ballgroup. Max range gank squads backed by a troll endlessly spamming chains gives you absolutely no counterplay. It's abusive plain and simple. Furthermore, the level of individually targeted griefing that some of the players doing this are engaging in (including provable, documented stream sniping) has full on crossed into ToS violating targeted harassment.

Incorrect. I have explained how to counter it multiple times throughout this thread.

Once again, ball group players who almost never set foot outside of their 12-man raid are trying to get anything that actually pressures or counters them nerfed into the ground, while completely ignoring their own crutches.

You can call it “no counterplay” all you want, but that does not make it true. The counterplay has already been explained. The issue is that you do not like the counterplay because it is one of the few things that can actually disrupt the playstyle you benefit from.

"Punishing them when they overcommit" is not counterplay. They stay at max range, with streak to keep them safe, and target a single person and delete them midair when that person is finally chained by their dedicated chain spam bot - again, from max range. THERE IS NO ACTUAL COUNTER PLAY TO THIS. When they can delete 35k health with full raid buffs before you hit the ground. If anything ballgroup players are the LEAST impacted by this because we actually have the health and buffs to have a chance at survival. The only reason you even think that the non-counterplay you've described works is because you're simply not their primary target. That could easily change at their whim. The mechanics they are abusing are broken, plain and simple without actual, meaningful, reactive counterplay. Your insistence to the contrary is straight up pants-on-head.

Have you actually tried engaging that squad in an even fight, or are you trying to fight them while also tanking the entire faction frontline?

Yeah, thought so.

Once again, this just comes down to ball group players feeling entitled to their 12v80 playstyle and calling anything that punishes it “no counterplay.”

"Have you actually tried engaging that squad in an even fight" is an actually unhinged thing to say. Their abusive gameplay style allows them complete control over the engagement. They will ABSOLUTELY follow a group with no friendly zerg for them around doing the exact same thing, FOR HOURS. It is impossible to kill them all because they just kite off, hide, tent, rez and continue spamming max range chains and pulse ganks. The fact that you can't see the abuse here is absolutely astounding.

"Fight them fair" lmfao. Actually lmfao. At this point, I can only assume you're one of the people engaging in this abuse with a vested interest in defending it.

VinnyGambini

Guys, is mythic the real culprit here?

I checked the cmx one more time - status effect damage is 55k out of 150k. Maybe I'm wrong, but removing mythic should lower values to 30k and therefore 125k in total. Slotting monomyth should actually give similar result, since most of your hits are crit anyways, so increasing them by 20% should give also around 130k-140k.

As I said, I'm not sure here, I haven't tested it, but from my calculations switching to monomyth should also allow 1 shot ganking.

acastanza_ESO

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Guys, is mythic the real culprit here?

I checked the cmx one more time - status effect damage is 55k out of 150k. Maybe I'm wrong, but removing mythic should lower values to 30k and therefore 125k in total. Slotting monomyth should actually give similar result, since most of your hits are crit anyways, so increasing them by 20% should give also around 130k-140k.

As I said, I'm not sure here, I haven't tested it, but from my calculations switching to monomyth should also allow 1 shot ganking.

Correct, it is not just a new mythic problem, there is some clearly unintended synergy in the actual underlying subclassing that is enabling this abusive troll play-style that ZOS need to address.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All, wanted to follow up here. We have seen the feedback around Pulse Ganker. We know the combat team is investigating and we are sending this thread and video along to assist with their review. Nothing to update now on next steps, but the feedback is known. Appreciate everyone sharing their feedback on this and overall meta concerns.

These people have started running as a group for when their already disgusting 35k+ solo gank isn't cutting it.
One person chains you from max range/stealth, the rest pulse you midair so you die before you can do literally anything about it. It's abusive plain and simple, and ZOS's failure to immediately adjust it as a preventative measure is pretty insulting. Any other game that has PVP would've shut this down inside a week as part of routine balance maintenance.

Said the ball group player

There is more counterplay to ballgrouping than ever before. This nonsense has absolutely none, and the comparison shows a deep unseriousness that is frankly completely invalidating to every argument you're making in this thread.
It is extremely easy to outrange, outsiege, outlast, and evict, a ballgroup. Max range gank squads backed by a troll endlessly spamming chains gives you absolutely no counterplay. It's abusive plain and simple. Furthermore, the level of individually targeted griefing that some of the players doing this are engaging in (including provable, documented stream sniping) has full on crossed into ToS violating targeted harassment.

Incorrect. I have explained how to counter it multiple times throughout this thread.

Once again, ball group players who almost never set foot outside of their 12-man raid are trying to get anything that actually pressures or counters them nerfed into the ground, while completely ignoring their own crutches.

You can call it “no counterplay” all you want, but that does not make it true. The counterplay has already been explained. The issue is that you do not like the counterplay because it is one of the few things that can actually disrupt the playstyle you benefit from.

"Punishing them when they overcommit" is not counterplay. They stay at max range, with streak to keep them safe, and target a single person and delete them midair when that person is finally chained by their dedicated chain spam bot - again, from max range. THERE IS NO ACTUAL COUNTER PLAY TO THIS. When they can delete 35k health with full raid buffs before you hit the ground. If anything ballgroup players are the LEAST impacted by this because we actually have the health and buffs to have a chance at survival. The only reason you even think that the non-counterplay you've described works is because you're simply not their primary target. That could easily change at their whim. The mechanics they are abusing are broken, plain and simple without actual, meaningful, reactive counterplay. Your insistence to the contrary is straight up pants-on-head.

Have you actually tried engaging that squad in an even fight, or are you trying to fight them while also tanking the entire faction frontline?

Yeah, thought so.

Once again, this just comes down to ball group players feeling entitled to their 12v80 playstyle and calling anything that punishes it “no counterplay.”

"Have you actually tried engaging that squad in an even fight" is an actually unhinged thing to say. Their abusive gameplay style allows them complete control over the engagement. They will ABSOLUTELY follow a group with no friendly zerg for them around doing the exact same thing, FOR HOURS. It is impossible to kill them all because they just kite off, hide, tent, rez and continue spamming max range chains and pulse ganks. The fact that you can't see the abuse here is absolutely astounding.

"Fight them fair" lmfao. Actually lmfao. At this point, I can only assume you're one of the people engaging in this abuse with a vested interest in defending it.

I can absolutely see the build being more oppressive than it should be. As I have stated multiple times in this thread, I do think it deserves an adjustment.

That said, following a ball group, pressuring them, and trying to push them out of your faction’s frontline is just as valid of a tactic as anything else, including ball grouping itself. You are getting a bit too emotional about this, and it is getting in the way of making a rational argument.

It is still laughable to see ball group players talk about “abuse” when their playstyle has been farming keeps, faction stacks, and solo players for years. Ball groups can endlessly transitus farm, wipe players before they can meaningfully react, and make people log off because they have no realistic way to fight back. Yet somehow, this is the thing you want to call abusive, while refusing to acknowledge the playstyle you have benefited from for years.

And I will say it again: the gank deserves an adjustment. It should not be dealing that much upfront burst by itself, but it also should not be nuked into the ground just because it happens to be effective against ball groups.