Pulse Ganker and Shattered Mythic

albertberku · May 29

Well i did the math in this thread for your "real PvPer" builds, but you just insulted me and left the thread after copy pasting from UESP and saying everything i wrote was incorrect and i lack the knowledge. Which then i exactly explained how that formula is calculated in the same thread. So yes, for your "proper PvP" builds with "basic human motor functions" it is hitting hard, as well. And that is mathematically proven. Nice way to discuss, copying from other sources without understanding the meaning, just to look knowledgeable, insulting others and then just leaving the discussion when the facts are written too obviously that there are no enough "trust me bro" s in the world to overcome them.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691147/nerf-range-ganking#latest

Avran_Sylt · May 29

Huh, so following the build advice from the guy that tanned my hide before:

I went from a Monomyth build with Focused Aim (sundered)->Ele Weapon (ele Proc)+LA (Sundered), with Order's Wrath/Soulcleaver Weaving on just a target skeleton (Robust, 1m, no buffs). And I was at 20K DPS over the course of a minute.

Same exact build and swapping out Soulcleaver to Threads of War, and Swapping out Monomyth for Shattered Paths Signet. And it went up to 29K DPS.

Course for PvP that will likely by an increase of 4.5K DPS. But all my procs are instantaneous apart from an unlucky burn proc. And Shattered Paths Signet appears to influence base damage of procs, which will be multiplicative against other effects, being more beneficial come u50 with the rebalance of multiplicative effects and categories.

Time to try it out in BGs.

Edit: My autos hit harder with the status effect and additional status effect from shattered paths for more pressure damage for free, it also increases my burst, and with Ele Weapon weaving into in-flight projectiles makes the "fire-and-forget" nature of applying it to a LA projectile that hits followed from snipe even more lethal with less reaction time. I just can't use my ult, but that means come u50 I'll be using the 5% increased crit damage passive instead of the ult-gen one. (and of course the execute passive).

(I should probably swap backbar 2H to bow (and scribe a Brutality skill if possible) and frontbar a Lightning staff at some point for Crushing Shock and Minor Vulnerability from Shock, but I like bows.).

One thing I did notice though, is that the change to raw damage in this build (and the removal of the 20% increase to healing from Siphoning, and +20% increase to crit healing from monomyth), is that the tradeoff for damage was sustain. Still better to be able to actually kill your target though than sit spamming heal while dying to attrition.

StihlReign · May 29

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All, wanted to follow up here. We have seen the feedback around Pulse Ganker. We know the combat team is investigating and we are sending this thread and video along to assist with their review. Nothing to update now on next steps, but the feedback is known. Appreciate everyone sharing their feedback on this and overall meta concerns.

Interesting...

Winterborn
LEVEL 50 - CP 160
Armor Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(3 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(5 items) When you deal Frost Damage, you summon an ice pillar that deals 1071 Frost damage to all enemies in a 3 meter radius. The ice pillar persists for 2 seconds and reduces the Movement Speed of all enemies within the radius by 50%. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds and the damage scales off the higher of your Weapon or Spell Damage.

NOTE: Current Version 5.29.2026

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · May 29

React wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Indeed thank you for proving my point. You are not getting one shot on a real setup piloted by a real player. Also signet is only better in the threads of war build which is usually not what most pulse gankers are running.

Well as I said, it sometimes IS killing me in one GCD, even with my absurdly tanky stats. In any case, even if it doesn't always instantly kill me, dealing upwards of a 30k burst in one GCD from 28 meters away in stealth to a target with 4k CR and 40k SR w/20%+ flat mitigation really is indefensible.

It isn't hard to find examples of what this setup is capable of. No need to pretend like it is weaker than it actually is.

You made a point earlier suggesting that Ball groupers are the ones complaining about this build, but truthfully I think they probably are the least impacted by it. From my experience the oppressive ranged damage coming from this setup & variants of it, as well as the general ranged status spam with signet, basically makes the pvp experience hell for anyone who isn't being enormously cross healed or standing in a large group where they can't be targeted by it. I certainly doubt the impact it may have on ball groups outweighs the frustration it is causing amongst everybody else.

My point is that player ignorance often inflates the perceived strength of the build because many people are not running proper PvP setups with the stats required for modern Cyrodiil. A lot of players are still using suboptimal builds, lacking key defensive thresholds, or missing buffs and mitigation that are considered standard in the current meta.

But it’s almost certainly not the gank by itself doing that with those stats. More likely, you’re getting GCD’d while also being Xv1’d or taking other incoming pressure.

I understand that it’s frustrating, and I’m not downplaying the strength of the setup. But you don’t need to make claims like you were fully buffed, had zero debuffs on you, had no other external incoming damage besides the gank itself, and were fully focused on the game, then say the build is straight up one-shotting you. With the stats you provided, that is not realistically true unless the ganker had something like 90%+ crit rate and every relevant status effect procced during the gank, which is basically a one-in-a-million scenario.

My point is not that the build is weak. It’s still very strong and, fully buffed with the stats you listed, it probably still should not be deleting 80%+ of your HP bar by itself. I actually agree with you there. My point is that people often inflate the perceived strength of the build by ignoring external damage, debuffs, lack of buffs, or the fact that they were already being pressured.

On the other hand, you’re right that ball group players are probably the least affected by this gank. Yet a good chunk of the people complaining and advocating for the complete removal of the playstyle are ball group players. That is what happens when the strongest form of Cyrodiil play finally gets rivaled by something other than the tools they abuse themselves.

albertberku · May 29

But you don’t need to make claims like you were fully buffed, had zero debuffs on you, had no other external incoming damage besides the gank itself, and were fully focused on the game, then say the build is straight up one-shotting you. With the stats you provided, that is not realistically true unless the ganker had something like 90%+ crit rate and every relevant status effect procced during the gank, which is basically a one-in-a-million scenario.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8473912/#Comment_8473912

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8475544/#Comment_8475544

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8475589/#Comment_8475589

Doesnt look like 90%+ crit rate to me and signet builds proc every status effect on the first combined hit almost all the time, Poisoned, Chilled, Concussioned, Burned, Sundered. This video is a single instance, but just need to spend 10 minutes in Cyrodiil to confirm that.

Right now, there is no normal fully buffed PvP build out there that this kind of gank combo is not going to do at least 30k hp dmg in a single GCD. Yeah, you will not get one-shotted by just a single one at full hp when not in fight but somehow still fully buffed (why?) and on your defensive bar, that is true.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · May 29

albertberku wrote: »

But you don’t need to make claims like you were fully buffed, had zero debuffs on you, had no other external incoming damage besides the gank itself, and were fully focused on the game, then say the build is straight up one-shotting you. With the stats you provided, that is not realistically true unless the ganker had something like 90%+ crit rate and every relevant status effect procced during the gank, which is basically a one-in-a-million scenario.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8473912/#Comment_8473912

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8475544/#Comment_8475544

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8475589/#Comment_8475589

Doesnt look like 90%+ crit rate to me and signet builds proc every status effect on the first combined hit almost all the time, Poisoned, Chilled, Concussioned, Burned, Sundered. This video is a single instance, but just need to spend 10 minutes in Cyrodiil to confirm that.

Right now, there is no normal PvP build out there that this kind of gank combo is not going to do at least 30k hp dmg in a single GCD. Yeah, you will not get one-shotted by just a single one at full hp when not in fight that is true.

I’m not engaging with your D tier theorycrafting again on this thread, you’re just a buffoon.

albertberku · May 29

I could be, that doesnt make what is written there automatically a buffoon, if they are true. 2 + 2 always equals to 4. Doesnt matter who says it. Again, starting to insult the person when there are no counterarguments present. Nice way to discuss.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · May 29

albertberku wrote: »

I could be, that doesnt make what is written there automatically a buffoon, if they are true. 2 + 2 always equals to 4. Doesnt matter who says it. Again, starting to insult the person when there are no counterarguments present. Nice way to discuss.

You were already dismantled on this exact point in the other thread. Repeating “2 + 2 = 4” doesn’t help when the issue is that your premise was wrong in the first place.

albertberku · May 29

By dismantled you mean you just copy pasted a damage mitigation formula from somewhere else you dont understand yourself, and called the calculations very "complex" in this game, said i lack the knowledge and left the discussion. And then afterwards i explained how i used that exact formula you copy pasted and how the calculations are made in this game for everyone to understand correctly. If that is your definition of being dismantled...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8475589/#Comment_8475589

So, in the end what do we exactly need?
1 - Not be in active combat.
2 - Have 0 debuffs on you.
3 - Be fully buffed. This includes proccing Rallying, being on defensive bar for Major Protection, etc.
4 - Have 35k+ hp. 35k+ resistances.
(Optionally) 5 - Still be able to do decent damage (a.k.a use a DK or Subclass DD Line build/proc sets).

And you will only lose 80% of your hp and not get oneshotted in a single GCD by someone sneaking 40m away. That is without using any Ultimates or investing in penetration/crit. Looks perfectly reasonable to me.

Urzigurumash · May 29

Imagine calling the person providing gameplay clips AND doing actual quantitative analysis a buffoon. That should tell any neutral party which side is the honest side here.

Nice work @albertberku . This forum needs more like you.

Avran_Sylt · May 29

albertberku wrote: »

By dismantled you mean you just copy pasted a damage mitigation formula from somewhere else you dont understand yourself, and called the calculations very "complex" in this game, said i lack the knowledge and left the discussion. And then afterwards i explained how i used that exact formula you copy pasted and how the calculations are made in this game for everyone to understand correctly. If that is your definition of being dismantled...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8475589/#Comment_8475589

So, in the end what do we exactly need?
1 - Not be in active combat.
2 - Have 0 debuffs on you.
3 - Be fully buffed. This includes proccing Rallying, being on defensive bar for Major Protection, etc.
4 - Have 35k+ hp. 35k+ resistances.
(Optionally) 5 - Still be able to do decent damage (a.k.a use a DK or Subclass DD Line build/proc sets).

And you will only lose 80% of your hp and not get oneshotted in a single GCD by someone sneaking 40m away. That is without using any Ultimates or investing in penetration/crit. Looks perfectly reasonable to me.

I mean... It does?

The gank setup failed. Now you have time to roll-dodge, heal-block back up, and be on alert/start using mobility detection pots. That ganker is not going to win a 1v1, and to setup that burst again they need to re-up at the very least crystal weapon.

If you're a DK gain 50% damage reduction to ranged and gain mobility to chase them down via wings.

And #2 & #3 are more or less the same thing if you're using monomyth: backbar when not in combat, frontbar when in combat.

Luneca · May 29

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Imagine calling the person providing gameplay clips AND doing actual quantitative analysis a buffoon. That should tell any neutral party which side is the honest side here.

Nice work @albertberku . This forum needs more like you.

All media is a production, and media can be crafted to run a narrative.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · May 29

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Imagine calling the person providing gameplay clips AND doing actual quantitative analysis a buffoon. That should tell any neutral party which side is the honest side here.

Nice work @albertberku . This forum needs more like you.

Gameplay clips that I and several other players have already broken down, dissected, and provided genuine feedback on across multiple threads. He’s reposting them here because he can’t cope with the fact that the builds in those clips are completely unprepared, not just for this gank, but for Cyrodiil gameplay as a whole.

And yes, I called the player in those clips a buffoon. Not because he provided gameplay footage, but because after multiple people explained exactly what was wrong, he chose to ignore all of it and repost the same examples as if the criticism never happened.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · May 29

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

albertberku wrote: »

By dismantled you mean you just copy pasted a damage mitigation formula from somewhere else you dont understand yourself, and called the calculations very "complex" in this game, said i lack the knowledge and left the discussion. And then afterwards i explained how i used that exact formula you copy pasted and how the calculations are made in this game for everyone to understand correctly. If that is your definition of being dismantled...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8475589/#Comment_8475589

So, in the end what do we exactly need?
1 - Not be in active combat.
2 - Have 0 debuffs on you.
3 - Be fully buffed. This includes proccing Rallying, being on defensive bar for Major Protection, etc.
4 - Have 35k+ hp. 35k+ resistances.
(Optionally) 5 - Still be able to do decent damage (a.k.a use a DK or Subclass DD Line build/proc sets).

And you will only lose 80% of your hp and not get oneshotted in a single GCD by someone sneaking 40m away. That is without using any Ultimates or investing in penetration/crit. Looks perfectly reasonable to me.

I mean... It does?

The gank setup failed. Now you have time to roll-dodge, heal-block back up, and be on alert/start using mobility detection pots. That ganker is not going to win a 1v1, and to setup that burst again they need to re-up at the very least crystal weapon.

If you're a DK gain 50% damage reduction to ranged and gain mobility to chase them down via wings.

And #2 & #3 are more or less the same thing if you're using monomyth: backbar when not in combat, frontbar when in combat.

Indeed, the meta build succeeded at surviving the gank, and once the encounter became even, the meta solo build had the advantage. However, not everyone plays meta solo builds. In fact, most people do not.

That is something both solo 1vX players and pulse gankers abuse about Cyrodiil gameplay. The casual playerbase enables ranged pulse gankers to one-shot a large portion of players, just as it enables 1vXers to effectively fight outnumbered. That is simply the reality of Cyrodiil.

Avran_Sylt · May 29

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

albertberku wrote: »

By dismantled you mean you just copy pasted a damage mitigation formula from somewhere else you dont understand yourself, and called the calculations very "complex" in this game, said i lack the knowledge and left the discussion. And then afterwards i explained how i used that exact formula you copy pasted and how the calculations are made in this game for everyone to understand correctly. If that is your definition of being dismantled...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8475589/#Comment_8475589

So, in the end what do we exactly need?
1 - Not be in active combat.
2 - Have 0 debuffs on you.
3 - Be fully buffed. This includes proccing Rallying, being on defensive bar for Major Protection, etc.
4 - Have 35k+ hp. 35k+ resistances.
(Optionally) 5 - Still be able to do decent damage (a.k.a use a DK or Subclass DD Line build/proc sets).

And you will only lose 80% of your hp and not get oneshotted in a single GCD by someone sneaking 40m away. That is without using any Ultimates or investing in penetration/crit. Looks perfectly reasonable to me.

I mean... It does?

The gank setup failed. Now you have time to roll-dodge, heal-block back up, and be on alert/start using mobility detection pots. That ganker is not going to win a 1v1, and to setup that burst again they need to re-up at the very least crystal weapon.

If you're a DK gain 50% damage reduction to ranged and gain mobility to chase them down via wings.

And #2 & #3 are more or less the same thing if you're using monomyth: backbar when not in combat, frontbar when in combat.

Indeed, the meta build succeeded at surviving the gank, and once the encounter became even, the meta solo build had the advantage. However, not everyone plays meta solo builds. In fact, most people do not.

That is something both solo 1vX players and pulse gankers abuse about Cyrodiil gameplay. The casual playerbase enables ranged pulse gankers to one-shot a large portion of players, just as it enables 1vXers to effectively fight outnumbered. That is simply the reality of Cyrodiil.

If that's the case then the mythic is fine as is.

Urzigurumash · May 29

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Imagine calling the person providing gameplay clips AND doing actual quantitative analysis a buffoon. That should tell any neutral party which side is the honest side here.

Nice work @albertberku . This forum needs more like you.

Gameplay clips that I and several other players have already broken down, dissected, and provided genuine feedback on across multiple threads. He’s reposting them here because he can’t cope with the fact that the builds in those clips are completely unprepared, not just for this gank, but for Cyrodiil gameplay as a whole.

And yes, I called the player in those clips a buffoon. Not because he provided gameplay footage, but because after multiple people explained exactly what was wrong, he chose to ignore all of it and repost the same examples as if the criticism never happened.

Look I get eso has a steep learning curve. Not everybody wants to put in the hard work to learn how to properly fight, people enjoy the easy way out with 2 shot ranged ganking. I get it. You get home after a long day, you wanna relax and rack up some Ks the easy way, not stess or struggle against opponents who have nothing better to do than work on their builds and practice their gameplay. On top of that, you hop on the forum to share some laughs and you get hit with the "your favorite past time shouldn't exist".

Wow. That's rough. Nobody wants to hear that.

But the good news is, there's ton of resources out there to help you. www.alcast.com, he has this great build called Ebon and Alkosh, its what all the meta tanks are wearing. Give it a try, learn the tricks your opponents use against you, like Sun Tzu said "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles."

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · May 29

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Imagine calling the person providing gameplay clips AND doing actual quantitative analysis a buffoon. That should tell any neutral party which side is the honest side here.

Nice work @albertberku . This forum needs more like you.

Gameplay clips that I and several other players have already broken down, dissected, and provided genuine feedback on across multiple threads. He’s reposting them here because he can’t cope with the fact that the builds in those clips are completely unprepared, not just for this gank, but for Cyrodiil gameplay as a whole.

And yes, I called the player in those clips a buffoon. Not because he provided gameplay footage, but because after multiple people explained exactly what was wrong, he chose to ignore all of it and repost the same examples as if the criticism never happened.

Look I get eso has a steep learning curve. Not everybody wants to put in the hard work to learn how to properly fight, people enjoy the easy way out with 2 shot ranged ganking. I get it. You get home after a long day, you wanna relax and rack up some Ks the easy way, not stess or struggle against opponents who have nothing better to do than work on their builds and practice their gameplay. On top of that, you hop on the forum to share some laughs and you get hit with the "your favorite past time shouldn't exist".

Wow. That's rough. Nobody wants to hear that.

But the good news is, there's ton of resources out there to help you. www.alcast.com, he has this great build called Ebon and Alkosh, its what all the meta tanks are wearing. Give it a try, learn the tricks your opponents use against you, like Sun Tzu said "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles."

You’re a funny guy lmao

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · May 29

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

albertberku wrote: »

By dismantled you mean you just copy pasted a damage mitigation formula from somewhere else you dont understand yourself, and called the calculations very "complex" in this game, said i lack the knowledge and left the discussion. And then afterwards i explained how i used that exact formula you copy pasted and how the calculations are made in this game for everyone to understand correctly. If that is your definition of being dismantled...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8475589/#Comment_8475589

So, in the end what do we exactly need?
1 - Not be in active combat.
2 - Have 0 debuffs on you.
3 - Be fully buffed. This includes proccing Rallying, being on defensive bar for Major Protection, etc.
4 - Have 35k+ hp. 35k+ resistances.
(Optionally) 5 - Still be able to do decent damage (a.k.a use a DK or Subclass DD Line build/proc sets).

And you will only lose 80% of your hp and not get oneshotted in a single GCD by someone sneaking 40m away. That is without using any Ultimates or investing in penetration/crit. Looks perfectly reasonable to me.

I mean... It does?

The gank setup failed. Now you have time to roll-dodge, heal-block back up, and be on alert/start using mobility detection pots. That ganker is not going to win a 1v1, and to setup that burst again they need to re-up at the very least crystal weapon.

If you're a DK gain 50% damage reduction to ranged and gain mobility to chase them down via wings.

And #2 & #3 are more or less the same thing if you're using monomyth: backbar when not in combat, frontbar when in combat.

Indeed, the meta build succeeded at surviving the gank, and once the encounter became even, the meta solo build had the advantage. However, not everyone plays meta solo builds. In fact, most people do not.

That is something both solo 1vX players and pulse gankers abuse about Cyrodiil gameplay. The casual playerbase enables ranged pulse gankers to one-shot a large portion of players, just as it enables 1vXers to effectively fight outnumbered. That is simply the reality of Cyrodiil.

If that's the case then the mythic is fine as is.

Yes, even if that is the case, the gank is still doing too much damage. Since most of the playerbase is very casual, the game should not be balanced entirely around the top 1% of players, and historically it never has been.

The gank and the mythic are both still in an unhealthy state for PvP overall. Even if the hypothetical I presented sounds fair in a controlled, even encounter, there are far more variables in actual Cyrodiil gameplay: stealth, the ability to disengage with Stage 4 vamp, and multiple players coordinating the gank at the same time. All of that makes the build abusive in several ways, and especially oppressive to the average Cyrodiil player.

That is why I still think both the mythic and the upfront burst of the pulse ganker should eventually be addressed. The overall power of the gank needs to be tuned down, even if there are specific situations where a prepared meta build can survive it.

Urzigurumash · May 29

😆 Look I get your general point and over the years I've agreed in principle. If you're getting ganked, tank up. Gankers are part of a healthy ecosystem as they enforce a baseline tankiness the masses have to meet to play.

But burst has been getting stronger and stronger ever since Champion 2.0 came out, and isn't that right when CW Ganking took the stage?

The defensive build elements haven't kept up with offensive. Just look at the spread of mythics in PvP, hardly any of the defensive ones see use.

This mythic and the gank can stay if we get a new simple one: Add 30k HP. Then the masses can sufficiently tank up to survive this gank, and all is well.

Urzigurumash · May 29

and let me bring up a now nearly forgotten point, this one I'm serious about:

Remove the Magical Damage Taken penalty on Heavy Armor.

Avran_Sylt · May 29

Urzigurumash wrote: »

😆 Look I get your general point and over the years I've agreed in principle. If you're getting ganked, tank up. Gankers are part of a healthy ecosystem as they enforce a baseline tankiness the masses have to meet to play.

But burst has been getting stronger and stronger ever since Champion 2.0 came out, and isn't that right when CW Ganking took the stage?

The defensive build elements haven't kept up with offensive. Just look at the spread of mythics in PvP, hardly any of the defensive ones see use.

This mythic and the gank can stay if we get a new simple one: Add 30k HP. Then the masses can sufficiently tank up to survive this gank, and all is well.

Tanking has always kept up. It's never left.

The only thing that has steadily declined is the offensive execution threshold for tanks.

Meaning if you build tank correctly, you're not going to be dealing much damage. And most PvP players find that boring, ergo "the death of the tank".

Luneca · May 29

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Look I get eso has a steep learning curve. Not everybody wants to put in the hard work to learn how to properly fight, people enjoy the easy way out with 2 shot ranged ganking. I get it. You get home after a long day, you wanna relax and rack up some Ks the easy way, not stess or struggle against opponents who have nothing better to do than work on their builds and practice their gameplay. On top of that, you hop on the forum to share some laughs and you get hit with the "your favorite past time shouldn't exist".

Wow. That's rough. Nobody wants to hear that.

But the good news is, there's ton of resources out there to help you. www.alcast.com, he has this great build called Ebon and Alkosh, its what all the meta tanks are wearing. Give it a try, learn the tricks your opponents use against you, like Sun Tzu said "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles."

You are aware that melee builds not even using the same setup can output way more damage and essentially do the same thing for the vast majority of Cyrodiil, just like the pulse ganking?

It's really odd that people keep pretending that isn't the case. I'm not even touching my DK because of how simple and skilless it is right now to kill people in a second.

And unlike these ranged builds that are oh-so-dangerous, on the DK you have corrosive, you have wings, you have literal baked in damage reduction and tankiness. Also strong healing. Also the ability to flexibily subclass and enhance any area of combat.

Look, pulse ganking can be nerfed, but let's not pretend it's the only thing capable of getting the outcome we are watching, have watched, and have seen. Nerf won't be affecting me, because I'm firing siege. But the hypocrisy is staggering and exactly why the game will never ever reach any form of balance.

I don't find it any more skillful to do the same exact blast of damage in melee range than from ranged. It's not. Who cares if you can be seen, if the opponent still can't counter or damage you? It's the same thing. To the majority of Cyrodiil, I doubt they care if the guy killed them in one second from range or one second from melee.

Yet here a bunch of players have gathered to talk about the ranged issue, conclude it's a problem, and then stay completely silent on the same exact thing happening in melee range with essentially a different combination to achieve the same goal.

Even if they nerf this, there's still other options to achieve the same thing and stack instances of damage that won't be affected. The game is setup in a way that different actions, different sets, different abilities all lead to the same conclusion except a select few. And that is a core issue with the game and it's balancing that, when resolved will also nerf the players that think they are "pro" and "skilled" or whatever juvenille description they want to place on themsevles today to pretend they are different from the next guy because they shoved a camera or something in their face.

But here, there is nothing astonishing about pulse ganking. I've seen 12-15 damage isntances stacked in melee range, not using Arcanist's line. And it still achieves the same exact thing, if we're talking about deleting people without a counter UNLESS they run an extreme tank build.

Yet we have people that pretend it isn't the case and try to throw their weight around because they stick a camera in their face or record a production. It's not that you or anyone else knows better than the people disagreeing or are any more "skillful" or whatever straw needs to be pulled out today.

The people disagreeing know that other exact methods to achieve the instant death outcome exist anyway and they are not more complicated, and some I would even say are BETTER. Counter that guy coming out of stealth with a 35K+ leap, which immediately lets you do an action after by the way and you will almsot always eat a 12-20k executioner. It ain't dodgeable (unless you know!) and it doesn't require the same type of stacking or restriction that pulse ganking does.

Ohhh but it's so much more fair because it's melee, right? It's fair because what enables it is the secret sauce underneath the extra cheese pizza that allows me to run a 90% tank build and still wipe out 95% of Cyrodiil with no real threat -- except from these darn pulse gankers, DoTs, poisons, and anyting because I refuse to run purge and my build is not hardcountered by anything except these niche and rare encounters.

Oh but since it's melee, it's skilled. Come, let's clap. Everyone, it's skilled. It's melee so it's fair! Even though the exact same outcome, actually better if you can get a group of people esp. on breach, we can decide it's fine instead.

Yet, pulse ganking that happens to make me have to roll and not just run in someone's face without penalty. Oh no, that needs a nerf. And it needs one today. I don't care if I can handle 5 of these guys on my DK, destroy them, have them spam me for an hour complaining obscenities (thanks PC NA DC players I love you guys if you're reading, I also love the EU DC even though you guys hate me so much) -- uh uh! I almost died to that gank and I had to sweat a little, it needs a nerf and it needs a nerf now.

I just find it completely unbelievable that supposedly skilled players can't roll and heal or even anticipate what's about to happen. Truly the level of PvPers has dropped in the game, and it's very disappointing. I haven't seen anyone on NA that honestly made me sweat and want to fight them yet. And that includes someone that someone that tried to bait me earlier and also disappointed there.

Avran_Sylt · May 29

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

albertberku wrote: »

By dismantled you mean you just copy pasted a damage mitigation formula from somewhere else you dont understand yourself, and called the calculations very "complex" in this game, said i lack the knowledge and left the discussion. And then afterwards i explained how i used that exact formula you copy pasted and how the calculations are made in this game for everyone to understand correctly. If that is your definition of being dismantled...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8475589/#Comment_8475589

So, in the end what do we exactly need?
1 - Not be in active combat.
2 - Have 0 debuffs on you.
3 - Be fully buffed. This includes proccing Rallying, being on defensive bar for Major Protection, etc.
4 - Have 35k+ hp. 35k+ resistances.
(Optionally) 5 - Still be able to do decent damage (a.k.a use a DK or Subclass DD Line build/proc sets).

And you will only lose 80% of your hp and not get oneshotted in a single GCD by someone sneaking 40m away. That is without using any Ultimates or investing in penetration/crit. Looks perfectly reasonable to me.

I mean... It does?

The gank setup failed. Now you have time to roll-dodge, heal-block back up, and be on alert/start using mobility detection pots. That ganker is not going to win a 1v1, and to setup that burst again they need to re-up at the very least crystal weapon.

If you're a DK gain 50% damage reduction to ranged and gain mobility to chase them down via wings.

And #2 & #3 are more or less the same thing if you're using monomyth: backbar when not in combat, frontbar when in combat.

Indeed, the meta build succeeded at surviving the gank, and once the encounter became even, the meta solo build had the advantage. However, not everyone plays meta solo builds. In fact, most people do not.

That is something both solo 1vX players and pulse gankers abuse about Cyrodiil gameplay. The casual playerbase enables ranged pulse gankers to one-shot a large portion of players, just as it enables 1vXers to effectively fight outnumbered. That is simply the reality of Cyrodiil.

If that's the case then the mythic is fine as is.

Yes, even if that is the case, the gank is still doing too much damage. Since most of the playerbase is very casual, the game should not be balanced entirely around the top 1% of players, and historically it never has been.

The gank and the mythic are both still in an unhealthy state for PvP overall. Even if the hypothetical I presented sounds fair in a controlled, even encounter, there are far more variables in actual Cyrodiil gameplay: stealth, the ability to disengage with Stage 4 vamp, and multiple players coordinating the gank at the same time. All of that makes the build abusive in several ways, and especially oppressive to the average Cyrodiil player.

That is why I still think both the mythic and the upfront burst of the pulse ganker should eventually be addressed. The overall power of the gank needs to be tuned down, even if there are specific situations where a prepared meta build can survive it.

You have Vengeance. Which is probably where I'm going to be going. Then be sure to also address Core of Flame+Incinerate+Fossilize+Leap.

Urzigurumash · May 29

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

😆 Look I get your general point and over the years I've agreed in principle. If you're getting ganked, tank up. Gankers are part of a healthy ecosystem as they enforce a baseline tankiness the masses have to meet to play.

But burst has been getting stronger and stronger ever since Champion 2.0 came out, and isn't that right when CW Ganking took the stage?

The defensive build elements haven't kept up with offensive. Just look at the spread of mythics in PvP, hardly any of the defensive ones see use.

This mythic and the gank can stay if we get a new simple one: Add 30k HP. Then the masses can sufficiently tank up to survive this gank, and all is well.

Tanking has always kept up. It's never left.

The only thing that has steadily declined is the offensive execution threshold for tanks.

Meaning if you build tank correctly, you're not going to be dealing much damage. And most PvP players find that boring, ergo "the death of the tank".

I do not mean Dedicated Tanks. Irrelevant imo and yes they seem more unkillable than ever. Replace Tankiness with Survivability, however you wanna say it. The minimum HP Mitigation etc. and HP Regen 🤭

Urzigurumash · May 29

@Luneca As to your first half yes in fact when albertberku first brought this up last month I actually commented that it may help tone down DKs. Afaik Wings only mitigates the Pulse and LA ticks, all of the CW/Treatise/Status damage is melee.

It has proven not worth it. This build is 100x more outrageous than DK from whom we can easily run away.

As to the second half let me get back to you. 😆

Avran_Sylt · May 29

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

😆 Look I get your general point and over the years I've agreed in principle. If you're getting ganked, tank up. Gankers are part of a healthy ecosystem as they enforce a baseline tankiness the masses have to meet to play.

But burst has been getting stronger and stronger ever since Champion 2.0 came out, and isn't that right when CW Ganking took the stage?

The defensive build elements haven't kept up with offensive. Just look at the spread of mythics in PvP, hardly any of the defensive ones see use.

This mythic and the gank can stay if we get a new simple one: Add 30k HP. Then the masses can sufficiently tank up to survive this gank, and all is well.

Tanking has always kept up. It's never left.

The only thing that has steadily declined is the offensive execution threshold for tanks.

Meaning if you build tank correctly, you're not going to be dealing much damage. And most PvP players find that boring, ergo "the death of the tank".

I do not mean Dedicated Tanks. Irrelevant imo and yes they seem more unkillable than ever. Replace Tankiness with Survivability, however you wanna say it. The minimum HP Mitigation etc. and HP Regen 🤭

That's not tanking. That's Brawler. And it's only gotten better with the DK rework. And passive HP regen should not be enough to keep you alive against burst, use a dedicated burst heal/shield to counter it.

React · May 29

Luneca wrote: »

I don't find it any more skillful to do the same exact blast of damage in melee range than from ranged. It's not. Who cares if you can be seen, if the opponent still can't counter or damage you? It's the same thing. To the majority of Cyrodiil, I doubt they care if the guy killed them in one second from range or one second from melee.

This is a pretty long & unhinged post, but I will go ahead and comment on the main point you're trying to make since it is the only part that actually matters.

Yes, there is a massive difference between melee and ranged damage in regards to the risks associated with both, difficulty of executing the combos, and the counterplay available to them.

For starters, with melee damage you need to be in melee range. That is roughly 7 meters maximum. It should be very obvious why this is inherently going to be more dangerous to execute than a 28 meter ranged burst. You need to leave cover, be able to out maneuver your target, stay on top of them for the entirety of your combo, etc. Quite a bit more complexity than simply loading up your ranged burst from max distance (in stealth).

It also DOES matter if you can see them or not, that is just an absurd thing to try and dispute. With the DK melee setup you're comparing this to, the entire combo has distinct visual and audio queues. With a little internal timing, you know exactly when they're going to burst you. Their stun has a visual indicator (and can be tracked via addon) to tell you when to roll. The "unavoidable combo" of fossilize -> leap is actually 100% counterable every time by simply holding block in your roll dodge, because the spaghetti code on the leap snare cancels your dodge before the leap will hit you. Or in the case of corrosive like you say, there are VERY well telegraphed visual and audio queues to tell you exactly when you need to counterplay. Every part of the combo can either be reliably blocked, rolled, or out-spaced as it consists entirely of short-range melee or PBAOE abilities.

Now, if stealth didn't exist at all unless you had the shadow line? I'd be inclined to agree that there is similar counterplay to the current pulse ganker. But due to vamp 4 and the ability to enter stealth via crouch in combat without active dots, the pulse ganker has a very reliable way to re-enter stealth (and ball of lightning to boot!).

But as for counterplay to the general status effect spam with signet, especially in regards to elemental susceptibility - there is none. This isn't some DOT meta where people are rotating multiple (often melee-range) DOTs on you to create pressure - they're spamming a 28 meter ranged, free to cast, unblockable and undodgeable skill which does spammable tier damage instantly, then again 6 times over it's 30 second duration. When the only counterplay to something is "play a tank", that thing doesn't have any counterplay.

albertberku · May 29

Gameplay clips that I and several other players have already broken down, dissected, and provided genuine feedback on across multiple threads. He’s reposting them here because he can’t cope with the fact that the builds in those clips are completely unprepared, not just for this gank, but for Cyrodiil gameplay as a whole.

And yes, I called the player in those clips a buffoon. Not because he provided gameplay footage, but because after multiple people explained exactly what was wrong, he chose to ignore all of it and repost the same examples as if the criticism never happened.

You explained exactly what was wrong? I posted a clip, did the calculations. You just copy pasted a formula from UESP, that you dont understand yourself, which i later showed i already used, pointed out unnecessary steps like including Battle Spirit, showed one single calculation mistake that was actually in favor of your suggested build. And then afterwards you insulted me and said i lack the knowledge so you wouldnt discuss with me.

I wouldnt really call this "we explained him what was wrong". You are not going to beat an Esometric Greaves and Shield build when it comes to gank attempts no matter how buffed you are in another builds. But i calculated it. And you didnt really give a proper answer to that calculation, no one did. Because you can't. Can't create counter arguments against mathematics. Then all what is left and all you can do is insulting the poster and that is what you do together with all other 10 people that just "Agree" all your comments.

If you all know this game that much as you suggest, then give me a proper calculation from your suggested build. And lets compare them. But you can't and you won't. So just like that we are back to insults as answers again. And some comments that are completely out of reality like "we already explained him many times what was wrong".

100% narrative, 0% factual proof of anything. At this point you could just write anything completely out of reality, without any facts, get your 10 "Agree"s from your friends. And that is also what is happening.

I am asking myself, why are we even posting here on these forums when this is the mindset we are dealing with? We should just leave you with your more and more broken PvP every patch, until there are no one left to play other than a handful players in your mindset.

Urzigurumash · May 29

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

😆 Look I get your general point and over the years I've agreed in principle. If you're getting ganked, tank up. Gankers are part of a healthy ecosystem as they enforce a baseline tankiness the masses have to meet to play.

But burst has been getting stronger and stronger ever since Champion 2.0 came out, and isn't that right when CW Ganking took the stage?

The defensive build elements haven't kept up with offensive. Just look at the spread of mythics in PvP, hardly any of the defensive ones see use.

This mythic and the gank can stay if we get a new simple one: Add 30k HP. Then the masses can sufficiently tank up to survive this gank, and all is well.

Tanking has always kept up. It's never left.

The only thing that has steadily declined is the offensive execution threshold for tanks.

Meaning if you build tank correctly, you're not going to be dealing much damage. And most PvP players find that boring, ergo "the death of the tank".

I do not mean Dedicated Tanks. Irrelevant imo and yes they seem more unkillable than ever. Replace Tankiness with Survivability, however you wanna say it. The minimum HP Mitigation etc. and HP Regen 🤭

That's not tanking. That's Brawler. And it's only gotten better with the DK rework. And passive HP regen should not be enough to keep you alive against burst, use a dedicated burst heal/shield to counter it.

My point was that efficiency has trended towards damage, so the idea that ganking is a healthy enforcer of minimal survivability has become a weak argument compared to say, exactly 10 years ago when Heavy Armor and Passive Survival was buffed through the roof.

Urzigurumash · May 29

and people will say well Healing Soul is so strong.

Yes active healing is still strong, but that takes a GCD and not having to break free or dodge.

Passive Survivability keeps you from getting ganked, for instance this combo wouldn't work if you had a 2k HP Regen tick in that same GCD.