Pulse Ganker and Shattered Mythic

ioResult · May 25

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Personally, I think the actual issue is the subclassing combo with Treatise + C-wep + Overload. That, on top of the Signet nerf, is what should be looked at.

The whole gank burst relies on Recuperative Treatise, not the signet. You can nerf the whole thing with one small simple change.

You change Recuperative to proc ONLY on an ARCANIST class ability and not on any Class Ability.

You do that and Crystal Weapon won’t proc it so the whole gank combo falls apart. It falls apart whether you’re using the Signet or Monomyth or anything else.

Simple. Nerf the ability not the mythic.

Urzigurumash · May 25

ioResult wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Personally, I think the actual issue is the subclassing combo with Treatise + C-wep + Overload. That, on top of the Signet nerf, is what should be looked at.

The whole gank burst relies on Recuperative Treatise, not the signet. You can nerf the whole thing with one small simple change.

You change Recuperative to proc ONLY on an ARCANIST class ability and not on any Class Ability.

You do that and Crystal Weapon won’t proc it so the whole gank combo falls apart. It falls apart whether you’re using the Signet or Monomyth or anything else.

Simple. Nerf the ability not the mythic.

Of course that should be done but what exactly is Treatise showing up for in your recaps? In mine it's between 2 and 3k so I don't see how that's going to bring this combo in line.

The Signet is a WAY higher percentage of the overall combo's damage.

ioResult · May 25

Urzigurumash wrote: »

The Signet is a WAY higher percentage of the overall combo's damage.

Crystal Weapon is what does a big chunk of damage, more than the status effects. And as I said, it’s the whole combo that makes the gank.

No other use of the signet does that and it can be done without the signet, so there’s no reason to nerf the signet - which can be used in many other types of builds and play styles - just because it makes up a component of a gank combo when you can nerf the combo by changing an ability.

Why penalize all the other players using the mythic in other ways just because one use of it as part of a gank combo that is objectionable to the tank meta abusers and ball groupers and which can be done just as easily using the same abilities but with a different mythic.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · May 25

Urzigurumash wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Personally, I think the actual issue is the subclassing combo with Treatise + C-wep + Overload. That, on top of the Signet nerf, is what should be looked at.

The whole gank burst relies on Recuperative Treatise, not the signet. You can nerf the whole thing with one small simple change.

You change Recuperative to proc ONLY on an ARCANIST class ability and not on any Class Ability.

You do that and Crystal Weapon won’t proc it so the whole gank combo falls apart. It falls apart whether you’re using the Signet or Monomyth or anything else.

Simple. Nerf the ability not the mythic.

Of course that should be done but what exactly is Treatise showing up for in your recaps? In mine it's between 2 and 3k so I don't see how that's going to bring this combo in line.

The Signet is a WAY higher percentage of the overall combo's damage.

Signet should be nerfed for different reasons, but trust me, if you only nerf signet you do not nerf the gank.

Urzigurumash · May 26

ioResult wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

The Signet is a WAY higher percentage of the overall combo's damage.

Crystal Weapon is what does a big chunk of damage, more than the status effects. And as I said, it’s the whole combo that makes the gank.

No other use of the signet does that and it can be done without the signet, so there’s no reason to nerf the signet - which can be used in many other types of builds and play styles - just because it makes up a component of a gank combo when you can nerf the combo by changing an ability.

Why penalize all the other players using the mythic in other ways just because one use of it as part of a gank combo that is objectionable to the tank meta abusers and ball groupers and which can be done just as easily using the same abilities but with a different mythic.

Speaking of BGs only, Crystal Weapon plus Treatise been around for a while, but the instagib didnt show up until the Signet did. End of story, doesnt take a brilliant analysis to figure that one out.

Hotdog_23 · May 26

ioResult wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Personally, I think the actual issue is the subclassing combo with Treatise + C-wep + Overload. That, on top of the Signet nerf, is what should be looked at.

The whole gank burst relies on Recuperative Treatise, not the signet. You can nerf the whole thing with one small simple change.

You change Recuperative to proc ONLY on an ARCANIST class ability and not on any Class Ability.

You do that and Crystal Weapon won’t proc it so the whole gank combo falls apart. It falls apart whether you’re using the Signet or Monomyth or anything else.

Simple. Nerf the ability not the mythic.

Just Devil advocate here but if a chunk of the damage is Crystal weapon why not change Crystal weapon and not the thing “Treatise” that is only doing a small part of the damage.

Stay safe

Avran_Sylt · May 26

ioResult wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

The Signet is a WAY higher percentage of the overall combo's damage.

Crystal Weapon is what does a big chunk of damage, more than the status effects. And as I said, it’s the whole combo that makes the gank.

No other use of the signet does that and it can be done without the signet, so there’s no reason to nerf the signet - which can be used in many other types of builds and play styles - just because it makes up a component of a gank combo when you can nerf the combo by changing an ability.

Why penalize all the other players using the mythic in other ways just because one use of it as part of a gank combo that is objectionable to the tank meta abusers and ball groupers and which can be done just as easily using the same abilities but with a different mythic.

Nah man, dudes are just spamming ele sus and force pulse, and yeah it does seem MMR resets each week.

This was a two-force pulse ganker + healbot game (green, one of them was bad at it and salty about getting got, thanks for the whisper!), and they could literally spawnkill our team from the wooden platform even through block (puddle map), let alone when you fall off the spawn platform, though the main pulser did get bored of shooting fish in a barrel. (once again horrendous map design, devs. Make it functional, then pretty...) My guess is the AS destro for the guaranteed procs.

Evo444 · May 27

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Nah man, dudes are just spamming ele sus and force pulse, and yeah it does seem MMR resets each week.

This was a two-force pulse ganker + healbot game (green, one of them was bad at it and salty about getting got, thanks for the whisper!), and they could literally spawnkill our team from the wooden platform even through block (puddle map), let alone when you fall off the spawn platform, though the main pulser did get bored of shooting fish in a barrel. (once again horrendous map design, devs. Make it functional, then pretty...) My guess is the AS destro for the guaranteed procs.

Oh dang I rarely check forums and saw that screenshot lol. Surprised the other guy whispered you. But no, I don't use force pulse. I'm kinda reliving old Jesus Beam with how it has undodgeable damage when someone roll dodges.

I don't think the mythic is OP at all though. There's kinda 2 big versions you'll see in Cyrodiil though. 1 that's spam for dps, another that's more prep work burst combo. I mainly just use the spam one but there's kinda misconceptions with them

1.) For the spam dps version that's legit just Light attack + Ele Sus/Force pulse(I like undodgeable damage in Ele Sus) and maybe prebuffing with some other ability beforehand like clench. You're being setup on for freecasting dps when no one is attacking you and that work's best for zerg surfing/2 sided bg's.
But when you are completely solo you're not gonna nuke any seasoned PvP'er 1v1 from stealth unless they're a bomber or ganker themself. It's gonna majority chunk their health but they'll block and heal and you're set for death now. So if you are in that situation of a 1v1 you need more prep abilities but now this happens

2.) You add Snipe, you add Overload, you add Crystal Weapon. Now you have a version that deals way more damage instantaneously. Somehow in this setup, the new mythic still gets blame for some reason? At this point Major force from Monomyth is wayyy better on those big hitting abiltiies I'm sure but I'd have to double check if the buff from Monomyth is instantaneous. It's not like you have any guaranteed status effects in this besides the 1 granted by Shattered mythic anyway.
The reason I don't use this version though is I'd do all that prep work in large scale fights in Cyro then the enemy randomly roll dodges and now you have to precast all those abilities again so I just stick the spam high dps version even though if I go to a 1v1 at a resource there's nothing I can do to win really.

To me most complaints I'm seeing are coming from Pve'ers coming into PvP with super low defense, those dying to an ability combo where it's more of the fact of combining all these delayed abilities yet the new mythic gets blame, or 1vX'ers who don't want to lose in outnumbered fights but that's up to ZOS who they wanna benefit. This does kinda get me back to thinking of why in ESO PvP it's so encouraged to win an outnumbered fight like 1v5 when I don't really see that in other games. Even a 1v5 clutch in Counter-Strike is just a 1v1 repeated most of the time.
But I think that Crystal Combo is what gets most attention right now and that the Shattered mythic just gets the blame for it, like there's way more people running the prep combo version with Monomyth than what I'm doing spamming with Shattered Paths.

"that main pulser did get bored of shooting fish in a barrel" loooool. Sometimes in bg's it does get to a point where I just start trying to find out of bounds spots but usually when it's against Pve'ers and some of them legit leave the BG.
"they could literally spawnkill our team from the wooden platform" Yeah about that, ZOS did change the map but they did not change the synergy of range abilities under Propelling Shield so we pretty much negate the distance change by adding range to our abilities with Propelling Shield ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Then we're able spawncamp anyway with lots of range abilities besides ele sus.

Regardless this did and will annihilate the pve'ers on your team that BG then from there my team is able to focus anyone who's still alive so it quickly becomes a 1v4 for you.
In my head though, a team of bruisers, say Dk's with a ton of pulse AOE's and maybe crosshealing is still gonna be infinitely times better than a team running setups above.
And when I do go up against a team of bruisers and my team has the pve'ers chain casting caltrops I don't even get double digit kills. I still die to 1 leap and 1 follow up ability. Any pvper can focus and charge at me and I instadie.

But overall I don't think ZOS should nerf Shattared Paths if their debating it. 1vx'ers are outnumbered so to me it shouldn't be in their favor to win, bombers are more of the real actual pvp victim of this, not 1vX'ers. For a 1v1 gank, Monomyth is most likely gonna be better, not this Shattered mythic. Damage is set to be higher next patch anyway with class masteries. Then Pve'ers or super casuals are getting Vengeance but ZOS can't stop them from queuing in to BG's so up to them what they wanna do with the mythic or any abilities within that above combo seeing as the combo got popular around same time as introduction of Shattered mythic even though it was subclassing update that gave all gank builds Crystal Weapon and Overload, both with range capabilties.

Urzigurumash · May 27

Is anybody down playing the strength of this ring able to provide numbers justifying their position? Or gameplay showing they can do it just as well with Monomyth?

decairn · May 27

I looked at with Monomyth and with Signet - Signet boosts overall damage burst by 20%. Its still decent with monomyth. Change recuperative treatise to only work with arcanist abilities and the output drops rapidly. This general build / sets has been out there a long time. Sub-classing boosted it a big amount, then the 2 mythics further boosted it and here we are.

Alchimiste1 · May 27

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Personally, I think the actual issue is the subclassing combo with Treatise + C-wep + Overload. That, on top of the Signet nerf, is what should be looked at.

The whole gank burst relies on Recuperative Treatise, not the signet. You can nerf the whole thing with one small simple change.

You change Recuperative to proc ONLY on an ARCANIST class ability and not on any Class Ability.

You do that and Crystal Weapon won’t proc it so the whole gank combo falls apart. It falls apart whether you’re using the Signet or Monomyth or anything else.

Simple. Nerf the ability not the mythic.

Of course that should be done but what exactly is Treatise showing up for in your recaps? In mine it's between 2 and 3k so I don't see how that's going to bring this combo in line.

The Signet is a WAY higher percentage of the overall combo's damage.

Signet should be nerfed for different reasons, but trust me, if you only nerf signet you do not nerf the gank.

This is how I feel.

Urzigurumash · May 27

Well let's check our feelings and get into the math. 20% Crit Damage x Typical Crit Chance, lets say 35%(?) On everything versus 80%(?) on every tick of Status damage.

Typical recaps are all Status plus like 3 to 4k CWs and 2 to 3k Treatises, right?

edit: those are BGs numbers btw

Urzigurumash · May 27

Seems like I get 35k hp chunked in 2 gcd, in BGs with no Rallying so lets say 2k Impen. Those are basically all the variables I have to solve this, I think. With 7k given to CW and Treatise, I have 28k left, so lets say 14k per gcd.

What's doing more of that, Monomyth or Signet?

Urzigurumash · May 27

Don't get me wrong, I agree it's cool to have a Mythic that is uniquely good on Spattering Disjunction type builds, and I was wrecking with Asylum Staff Spam last year, with very little effort.

But in my area of play the new outrageous combo originated with the Signet.

TheValkyn · May 28

Sluggy wrote: »

Players: TTK is too high. Tanks are everywhere.

Also Players: TTK is too low. People are dying left and right?

Also Players: There's no build variety. Everyone is running the same build.

Also Players: *Creating more viable builds than I've seen in three years*

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I can’t believe there’s no room in the middle! (Sarcasm)

katorga · May 28

Urzigurumash wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Personally, I think the actual issue is the subclassing combo with Treatise + C-wep + Overload. That, on top of the Signet nerf, is what should be looked at.

The whole gank burst relies on Recuperative Treatise, not the signet. You can nerf the whole thing with one small simple change.

You change Recuperative to proc ONLY on an ARCANIST class ability and not on any Class Ability.

You do that and Crystal Weapon won’t proc it so the whole gank combo falls apart. It falls apart whether you’re using the Signet or Monomyth or anything else.

Simple. Nerf the ability not the mythic.

Of course that should be done but what exactly is Treatise showing up for in your recaps? In mine it's between 2 and 3k so I don't see how that's going to bring this combo in line.

The Signet is a WAY higher percentage of the overall combo's damage.

The point of the combo is to land as many attacks in 1 GCD as possible. That is why treatise + crystal weapon is key. This build has been around for literally years in various permutations. Shattered paths is nice, but it works just as well with a crit build and monomyth.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · May 28

Evo444 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Nah man, dudes are just spamming ele sus and force pulse, and yeah it does seem MMR resets each week.

This was a two-force pulse ganker + healbot game (green, one of them was bad at it and salty about getting got, thanks for the whisper!), and they could literally spawnkill our team from the wooden platform even through block (puddle map), let alone when you fall off the spawn platform, though the main pulser did get bored of shooting fish in a barrel. (once again horrendous map design, devs. Make it functional, then pretty...) My guess is the AS destro for the guaranteed procs.

Oh dang I rarely check forums and saw that screenshot lol. Surprised the other guy whispered you. But no, I don't use force pulse. I'm kinda reliving old Jesus Beam with how it has undodgeable damage when someone roll dodges.

I don't think the mythic is OP at all though. There's kinda 2 big versions you'll see in Cyrodiil though. 1 that's spam for dps, another that's more prep work burst combo. I mainly just use the spam one but there's kinda misconceptions with them

1.) For the spam dps version that's legit just Light attack + Ele Sus/Force pulse(I like undodgeable damage in Ele Sus) and maybe prebuffing with some other ability beforehand like clench. You're being setup on for freecasting dps when no one is attacking you and that work's best for zerg surfing/2 sided bg's.
But when you are completely solo you're not gonna nuke any seasoned PvP'er 1v1 from stealth unless they're a bomber or ganker themself. It's gonna majority chunk their health but they'll block and heal and you're set for death now. So if you are in that situation of a 1v1 you need more prep abilities but now this happens

2.) You add Snipe, you add Overload, you add Crystal Weapon. Now you have a version that deals way more damage instantaneously. Somehow in this setup, the new mythic still gets blame for some reason? At this point Major force from Monomyth is wayyy better on those big hitting abiltiies I'm sure but I'd have to double check if the buff from Monomyth is instantaneous. It's not like you have any guaranteed status effects in this besides the 1 granted by Shattered mythic anyway.
The reason I don't use this version though is I'd do all that prep work in large scale fights in Cyro then the enemy randomly roll dodges and now you have to precast all those abilities again so I just stick the spam high dps version even though if I go to a 1v1 at a resource there's nothing I can do to win really.

To me most complaints I'm seeing are coming from Pve'ers coming into PvP with super low defense, those dying to an ability combo where it's more of the fact of combining all these delayed abilities yet the new mythic gets blame, or 1vX'ers who don't want to lose in outnumbered fights but that's up to ZOS who they wanna benefit. This does kinda get me back to thinking of why in ESO PvP it's so encouraged to win an outnumbered fight like 1v5 when I don't really see that in other games. Even a 1v5 clutch in Counter-Strike is just a 1v1 repeated most of the time.
But I think that Crystal Combo is what gets most attention right now and that the Shattered mythic just gets the blame for it, like there's way more people running the prep combo version with Monomyth than what I'm doing spamming with Shattered Paths.

"that main pulser did get bored of shooting fish in a barrel" loooool. Sometimes in bg's it does get to a point where I just start trying to find out of bounds spots but usually when it's against Pve'ers and some of them legit leave the BG.
"they could literally spawnkill our team from the wooden platform" Yeah about that, ZOS did change the map but they did not change the synergy of range abilities under Propelling Shield so we pretty much negate the distance change by adding range to our abilities with Propelling Shield ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Then we're able spawncamp anyway with lots of range abilities besides ele sus.

Regardless this did and will annihilate the pve'ers on your team that BG then from there my team is able to focus anyone who's still alive so it quickly becomes a 1v4 for you.
In my head though, a team of bruisers, say Dk's with a ton of pulse AOE's and maybe crosshealing is still gonna be infinitely times better than a team running setups above.
And when I do go up against a team of bruisers and my team has the pve'ers chain casting caltrops I don't even get double digit kills. I still die to 1 leap and 1 follow up ability. Any pvper can focus and charge at me and I instadie.

But overall I don't think ZOS should nerf Shattared Paths if their debating it. 1vx'ers are outnumbered so to me it shouldn't be in their favor to win, bombers are more of the real actual pvp victim of this, not 1vX'ers. For a 1v1 gank, Monomyth is most likely gonna be better, not this Shattered mythic. Damage is set to be higher next patch anyway with class masteries. Then Pve'ers or super casuals are getting Vengeance but ZOS can't stop them from queuing in to BG's so up to them what they wanna do with the mythic or any abilities within that above combo seeing as the combo got popular around same time as introduction of Shattered mythic even though it was subclassing update that gave all gank builds Crystal Weapon and Overload, both with range capabilties.

Yeah, most if not all of what you are saying is true.

As I said before in a different thread, the gank by itself is not going to instantly delete a proper solo PvP build being played by someone with basic human motor functions and average reaction time. It will chunk a good amount of their HP, sure, but unless they are already being Xv1’d, debuffed, or taking damage from multiple sources at the same time the gank lands, they are usually not getting truly “GCDed.”

A lot of the one-shot potential people complain about comes from the fact that a big portion of the playerbase is casual and does not really know, or care, how to build properly for Cyrodiil. And honestly, that is understandable. At the end of the day, ESO is still a casual MMO for most players. A lot of people just want to log in, run around, play their RP build, and have fun. They are not trying to sweat on a fully optimized PvP setup.

That is why the build looks even more absurd in practice. It is strong, but a lot of the clips and deaths people point to are also happening against players who are not built or prepared for that kind of damage at all.

React · May 28

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

As I said before in a different thread, the gank by itself is not going to instantly delete a proper solo PvP build being played by someone with basic human motor functions and average reaction time. It will chunk a good amount of their HP, sure, but unless they are already being Xv1’d, debuffed, or taking damage from multiple sources at the same time the gank lands, they are usually not getting truly “GCDed.”

The people who are properly built for this gank often are able to chunk 90%+ of my 33k HP with it - on my setup with 4k crit resist and 40k spell resistance, major/minor protection, two defensive CP, etc. It will sometimes even "one GCD" me if I'm on my frontbar, if rallying cry is down, if my spell resist potion isn't up, etc.

To me, ganking should reward based on the risk associated with it. This particular build is able to perform the entire gank from 28 meters away in stealth, and if it fails they can instantly streak away 3+ times and re-stealth. It is very low risk, even when they're built like paper, because the range they're at combined with the speed they're able to move via streak pretty much negates anyone's ability to reasonably catch them after they fail a gank.

Ranged damage in general should not be allowed to be that oppressive without proper counterplay. Sure you can dodge/block it, but not when you have no idea that it is coming due to the caster being 28 meters away in stealth.

Now, the signet itself is problematic primarily because of elemental susceptibility. While it does push the damage of this gank a bit higher than monomyth, it is much more problematic when simply used on a "normal", non-ganking build. Elemental susceptibility is dealing anywhere from 3k (if blocked) to 7k damage on cast with this ring, then again every 6 seconds for 30 seconds. That is a zero counterplay, 28 meter range, free to cast ability.

As far as the gank goes, I think it needs to be tuned down just due to it's nature as being a ranged setup. Not really sure how they'll accomplish that as there are a few things coming together to make this really broken (stacking of crystal + treatise, travel time of snipe into force pulse allowing them to land at the same time, stealth being available without using the shadow line).

But for the signet, something has to give. Elemental susceptibility itself needs to be nerfed, hard. Another user suggested it should only apply the status effect of the staff type it was cast from as well as having a cost added, which makes complete sense to me. For the ring itself, there are two ways I could see it being brought into line. Either a further reduction to the PVP % modifier, a functionality change altogether (decimus has a good post suggesting some ideas for this), or a change to status to make them no longer stack in regards to burning/poisoned/hemo. It's gotten old quick seeing burning as the #1 damage received in 75%+ engagements, and seeing debuff bars with 5-8 instances of burning + 4-6 elemental susceptibility casts simultaneously.

Urzigurumash · May 28

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

A lot of the one-shot potential people complain about comes from the fact that a big portion of the playerbase is casual and does not really know, or care, how to build properly for Cyrodiil. And honestly, that is understandable. At the end of the day, ESO is still a casual MMO for most players. A lot of people just want to log in, run around, play their RP build, and have fun. They are not trying to sweat on a fully optimized PvP setup.

React, maybe it's time to stop being a casual PvE RPer and learn how to build for PvP. If you're trying to sweat that is, it's understandable if you're not. 😂

Urzigurumash · May 28

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

That is why the build looks even more absurd in practice. It is strong, but a lot of the clips and deaths people point to are also happening against players who are not built or prepared for that kind of damage at all.

Not prepared as in not holding block on their backbar? Not standing in Trees next to a Blood Altar? I think you're just pushing our buttons for fun.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · May 28

React wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

As I said before in a different thread, the gank by itself is not going to instantly delete a proper solo PvP build being played by someone with basic human motor functions and average reaction time. It will chunk a good amount of their HP, sure, but unless they are already being Xv1’d, debuffed, or taking damage from multiple sources at the same time the gank lands, they are usually not getting truly “GCDed.”

The people who are properly built for this gank often are able to chunk 90%+ of my 33k HP with it - on my setup with 4k crit resist and 40k spell resistance, major/minor protection, two defensive CP, etc. It will sometimes even "one GCD" me if I'm on my frontbar, if rallying cry is down, if my spell resist potion isn't up, etc.

To me, ganking should reward based on the risk associated with it. This particular build is able to perform the entire gank from 28 meters away in stealth, and if it fails they can instantly streak away 3+ times and re-stealth. It is very low risk, even when they're built like paper, because the range they're at combined with the speed they're able to move via streak pretty much negates anyone's ability to reasonably catch them after they fail a gank.

Ranged damage in general should not be allowed to be that oppressive without proper counterplay. Sure you can dodge/block it, but not when you have no idea that it is coming due to the caster being 28 meters away in stealth.

Now, the signet itself is problematic primarily because of elemental susceptibility. While it does push the damage of this gank a bit higher than monomyth, it is much more problematic when simply used on a "normal", non-ganking build. Elemental susceptibility is dealing anywhere from 3k (if blocked) to 7k damage on cast with this ring, then again every 6 seconds for 30 seconds. That is a zero counterplay, 28 meter range, free to cast ability.

As far as the gank goes, I think it needs to be tuned down just due to it's nature as being a ranged setup. Not really sure how they'll accomplish that as there are a few things coming together to make this really broken (stacking of crystal + treatise, travel time of snipe into force pulse allowing them to land at the same time, stealth being available without using the shadow line).

But for the signet, something has to give. Elemental susceptibility itself needs to be nerfed, hard. Another user suggested it should only apply the status effect of the staff type it was cast from as well as having a cost added, which makes complete sense to me. For the ring itself, there are two ways I could see it being brought into line. Either a further reduction to the PVP % modifier, a functionality change altogether (decimus has a good post suggesting some ideas for this), or a change to status to make them no longer stack in regards to burning/poisoned/hemo. It's gotten old quick seeing burning as the #1 damage received in 75%+ engagements, and seeing debuff bars with 5-8 instances of burning + 4-6 elemental susceptibility casts simultaneously.

Indeed thank you for proving my point. You are not getting one shot on a real setup piloted by a real player. Also signet is only better in the threads of war build which is usually not what most pulse gankers are running.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · May 28

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

That is why the build looks even more absurd in practice. It is strong, but a lot of the clips and deaths people point to are also happening against players who are not built or prepared for that kind of damage at all.

Not prepared as in not holding block on their backbar? Not standing in Trees next to a Blood Altar? I think you're just pushing our buttons for fun.

I most certainly am not, if you have a build with stats similar to react's and you are buffed up not getting Xv1ed, you will not get GCDed.

ioResult · May 28

React wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

To me, ganking should reward based on the risk associated with it. This particular build is able to perform the entire gank from 28 meters away in stealth, and if it fails they can instantly streak away 3+ times and re-stealth. It is very low risk, even when they're built like paper, because the range they're at combined with the speed they're able to move via streak pretty much negates anyone's ability to reasonably catch them after they fail a gank.

That's fine and all but:

1) You exploit broken systems if you have 4K Crit Resist and 40K Resistances. Any build with this should not be able to kill anything in Cyrodiil or BGs. Only an actual Tank build should be able to get these kinds of numbers.

2) We used to have high risk, high reward gank builds. With melee weapons. Where we could effectively sneak round inside an enemy keep until the other faction decided to sweep the whole keep to find us. Guess what happened to that playstyle? ZOS nerfed it into the ground. ON. PURPOSE. Actual ganking as you knew it is gone. ZOS made sure of it. ZOS eliminated as much stealth play as they could even though with primary class passives around single target crit damage after sneaking up on people in stealth is exactly how the Nightblade class was DESIGNED in the first place.

3) With everyone running around in 4K Crit Resist and 40K Resistances - again a meta that ZOS made ON PURPOSE, people found yet another way to gank people - a tactic quite effective at keeping reinforcements from reaching a contested keep or another battlefield - and now everyone wants that gone too because they're too lazy to learn counterplay to stealth tactics.

4) These pulse gankers are all squishy as wet toilet paper even today. That's high risk high reward. If they fail the one of the 14 million DKs roaming Cyrodiil leap them from 750 meters away and one shot them with a ridiculous spammable AoE ability that couldn't be more overtuned.

All the "afraid to die" meta hoppers finally have something to be afraid of in Cyrodiil and it's all a chorus of "it must be nerfed". It's like others have said, the combo is what does enough damage in 1 GCD to get even the most tanky down in 2 or 3 GCDs unless they are a true, true tank. You can do this with Monomyth and using a bow instead of a destro staff. Don't believe me? Go get on the PTS and try it. It works.

Subclassing made these pulse gank builds possible. Take it out of the game and the signet is nothing but a nice to have for status effect builds. That's the reality.

React · May 28

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Indeed thank you for proving my point. You are not getting one shot on a real setup piloted by a real player. Also signet is only better in the threads of war build which is usually not what most pulse gankers are running.

Well as I said, it sometimes IS killing me in one GCD, even with my absurdly tanky stats. In any case, even if it doesn't always instantly kill me, dealing upwards of a 30k burst in one GCD from 28 meters away in stealth to a target with 4k CR and 40k SR w/20%+ flat mitigation really is indefensible.

It isn't hard to find examples of what this setup is capable of. No need to pretend like it is weaker than it actually is.

You made a point earlier suggesting that Ball groupers are the ones complaining about this build, but truthfully I think they probably are the least impacted by it. From my experience the oppressive ranged damage coming from this setup & variants of it, as well as the general ranged status spam with signet, basically makes the pvp experience hell for anyone who isn't being enormously cross healed or standing in a large group where they can't be targeted by it. I certainly doubt the impact it may have on ball groups outweighs the frustration it is causing amongst everybody else.

Turtle_Bot · May 29

React wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

As I said before in a different thread, the gank by itself is not going to instantly delete a proper solo PvP build being played by someone with basic human motor functions and average reaction time. It will chunk a good amount of their HP, sure, but unless they are already being Xv1’d, debuffed, or taking damage from multiple sources at the same time the gank lands, they are usually not getting truly “GCDed.”

The people who are properly built for this gank often are able to chunk 90%+ of my 33k HP with it - on my setup with 4k crit resist and 40k spell resistance, major/minor protection, two defensive CP, etc. It will sometimes even "one GCD" me if I'm on my frontbar, if rallying cry is down, if my spell resist potion isn't up, etc.

To me, ganking should reward based on the risk associated with it. This particular build is able to perform the entire gank from 28 meters away in stealth, and if it fails they can instantly streak away 3+ times and re-stealth. It is very low risk, even when they're built like paper, because the range they're at combined with the speed they're able to move via streak pretty much negates anyone's ability to reasonably catch them after they fail a gank.

Ranged damage in general should not be allowed to be that oppressive without proper counterplay. Sure you can dodge/block it, but not when you have no idea that it is coming due to the caster being 28 meters away in stealth.

Now, the signet itself is problematic primarily because of elemental susceptibility. While it does push the damage of this gank a bit higher than monomyth, it is much more problematic when simply used on a "normal", non-ganking build. Elemental susceptibility is dealing anywhere from 3k (if blocked) to 7k damage on cast with this ring, then again every 6 seconds for 30 seconds. That is a zero counterplay, 28 meter range, free to cast ability.

As far as the gank goes, I think it needs to be tuned down just due to it's nature as being a ranged setup. Not really sure how they'll accomplish that as there are a few things coming together to make this really broken (stacking of crystal + treatise, travel time of snipe into force pulse allowing them to land at the same time, stealth being available without using the shadow line).

But for the signet, something has to give. Elemental susceptibility itself needs to be nerfed, hard. Another user suggested it should only apply the status effect of the staff type it was cast from as well as having a cost added, which makes complete sense to me. For the ring itself, there are two ways I could see it being brought into line. Either a further reduction to the PVP % modifier, a functionality change altogether (decimus has a good post suggesting some ideas for this), or a change to status to make them no longer stack in regards to burning/poisoned/hemo. It's gotten old quick seeing burning as the #1 damage received in 75%+ engagements, and seeing debuff bars with 5-8 instances of burning + 4-6 elemental susceptibility casts simultaneously.

Just an FYI, that 33k health is not enough anymore for a brawler build due to ZOS buffing damage so insanely high ever since they introduced sub-classing, and kept buffing it even post sub-classing (which was the obvious result of the extreme reductions in TTK that were being asked for during the preceding tank meta).

35k max health is the minimum to shoot for now on a brawler build, even for good players on good builds, with good ping, with 40k+ health required for more average players (and shields don't count outside of ball groups, they have many other issues and don't work as well against the current insane damage available). Even 35k health is not enough if performance is also bad.

Something else to note is that the pulse gank build is not something that is countered by stacking crit resist + resistances like the old sub-classed or current acuity crit builds are. Those don't counter the pulse gank because the build doesn't try to land 1 big crit to burst a target down, it tries to burst a target down with "death by 1000 cuts" relying on base + flat + percent damage modifiers + built in debuffs instead of crits, stacking as many instances of damage (that all come with their own free debuffs tacked on) to mimic the burst of a crit build, but without relying on crits only for the damage.

The most effective counter to this build is actually cleanses, Mara's Balm in particular is basically a hard counter to this setup since the pulse gank stacks enough status effects/debuffs to proc the full cleanse of Mara's, that also grants a full heal at the same time, completely nullifying all the damage and debuffs that eat away at your mitigations for a follow up gank attempt. Juggernaut is another similar set, it doesn't cleanse, but the massive instant heal + 20k unique mitigation does enough to open a window to fight back. The cleansing revival champion point is another good option as well because it has a separate cooldown to the sets so can pseudo reduce the long cooldowns of those sets as long as HoTs (Vigor or HoF) are ticking.

These sets do need to be built around though, just slapping them onto a regular 30-34k health build won't help, build slightly tankier at 36k+ health and these sets will make this gank build nothing more than a nuisance to be chased down with a detect pot.

What really makes this build over the top is the stealth mechanic itself (not just cloak, I'm talking all stealth including crouch, potions, stage 4, etc.) that makes this build far too easy/forgiving to play. If you can see this build coming, or this build has no way to just vanish instantly if the gank fails, they are a sitting duck with the 3-4 GCDs required for the full combo (and only the full combo is any threat to a good build/player) and the wet tissue defenses the build has when not relying on stealth to prevent them from being targeted (i.e. stealth giving 100% damage mitigation). Take away stealth from this build and it's nothing more than a glass cannon zerg build that is as sturdy as a snowball in the Sahara at midday. Sure it can try to run with streak, but without stealth to back up streak it can't do anything unless it full commits to running away via running into a keep or some other area that they cannot be followed into.

As for groups of this build, it's been the same thing with literally every single skill in this games history. I still remember "Leap Squads" wiping entire groups with just timed leap spam, or wolf packs that spam howl (now bite) to instantly wipe players. That's what numbers are meant to do against outnumbered players, especially when the numbers are coordinated. It's why outnumbered fights are always against lesser skilled players or players on significantly weaker builds.

As for ele sus spam with signet, imo, just adjusting ele sus to be single damage type based around the equipped staff and a small cost (1-1.5k since it will effectively be a ST sticky DoT on par with twin slashes with this change) would be enough to bring in this interaction.

No need to further nerf signet beyond preventing it working with stealth if this change to ele sus is done since ele sus would already lose 2/3 of the status effect damage due to only applying 1 status effect instead of 3. It would still be an effective pressure build, but would no longer be completely oppressive (or completely free to cast). It would be on par with a twin slashes build, trading 2 upfront direct damage hits + passive DoT, for major breach + range.

Turtle_Bot · May 29

React wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Indeed thank you for proving my point. You are not getting one shot on a real setup piloted by a real player. Also signet is only better in the threads of war build which is usually not what most pulse gankers are running.

Well as I said, it sometimes IS killing me in one GCD, even with my absurdly tanky stats. In any case, even if it doesn't always instantly kill me, dealing upwards of a 30k burst in one GCD from 28 meters away in stealth to a target with 4k CR and 40k SR w/20%+ flat mitigation really is indefensible.

It isn't hard to find examples of what this setup is capable of. No need to pretend like it is weaker than it actually is.

You made a point earlier suggesting that Ball groupers are the ones complaining about this build, but truthfully I think they probably are the least impacted by it. From my experience the oppressive ranged damage coming from this setup & variants of it, as well as the general ranged status spam with signet, basically makes the pvp experience hell for anyone who isn't being enormously cross healed or standing in a large group where they can't be targeted by it. I certainly doubt the impact it may have on ball groups outweighs the frustration it is causing amongst everybody else.

Just to reiterate (and shorten) my previous post. This build is not something that just stacking crit resistances/resistances in general will passively counter it. It requires different defensive tools to survive it than crit stacking builds require. That's why it is dealing so much damage to your specific build (well most solo builds in general).

There are some thing that need toning down/addressing, but in general, I like that this build is forcing new defensive options be explored than just slotting rallying cry + resist pots that has been the only good defensive tools for the past year+. It's creating a more triangle meta of defensive tools, slot rallying for crit builds, mara's for this build, or try to find a nice mix between the 2 sets to mitigate (but not hard counter) both builds.

React · May 29

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Just to reiterate (and shorten) my previous post. This build is not something that just stacking crit resistances/resistances in general will passively counter it. It requires different defensive tools to survive it than crit stacking builds require. That's why it is dealing so much damage to your specific build (well most solo builds in general).

Thank you for your (two) posts explaining the damage mechanics of this setup - I already understand them quite well, though. The point I was making is that it does that damage in spite of the absurd mitigation stats I mentioned above, all of which do still apply to every instance of damage coming from that setup.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

There are some thing that need toning down/addressing, but in general, I like that this build is forcing new defensive options be explored than just slotting rallying cry + resist pots that has been the only good defensive tools for the past year+. It's creating a more triangle meta of defensive tools, slot rallying for crit builds, mara's for this build, or try to find a nice mix between the 2 sets to mitigate (but not hard counter) both builds.

This is just a bad take. When the only possible counterplay to something is "build tankier/increase your health/equip this 5pc set", that thing doesn't have any skill based counterplay. It isn't creating some unique or interesting variety in defensive options - it's telling everyone "hey, raise your HP to 40k and equip this 5p set or you're going to get one tapped by a guy 28 meters away in stealth with minimal effort".

Luneca · May 29

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Indeed thank you for proving my point. You are not getting one shot on a real setup piloted by a real player. Also signet is only better in the threads of war build which is usually not what most pulse gankers are running.

All I do is fire siege, and even then, I don't think I've ever been one shot even once by it. Did it take half my HP away from my build using random blue gear? Yes. But it was never a one shot. The status effect damage DoTs are even more laughable and not a death sentence unless stacked . What's funny is that is exactly what React is showing.

And what's strange is the idea that they should live versus many players stacking damage on them...because...what? They think it's skill to not have to run purge or anything else and be able to defeat people until they run into these builds that hard counter them?

I cannot take them seriously when that's the case. When someone is advocating for the game to be made easier for them to kill others, then pretend that it takes skill to do so with their build.

Also, I have a setup with tank-like stats too and 0 people on PC NA and EU have been able to one shot me. So I find what they are saying kind of questionable, especially since they have a vested interest in seeing the mythic and status damage nerfed.

Not that I don't agree that the mythic should be nerfed, but can we not do it in bad faith and be honest and transparent about it?

I could have sworn I read the same guys complain about DoT damage and helping usher in this boring tanky brawler META to begin with.

React · May 29

Luneca wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Indeed thank you for proving my point. You are not getting one shot on a real setup piloted by a real player. Also signet is only better in the threads of war build which is usually not what most pulse gankers are running.

All I do is fire siege, and even then, I don't think I've ever been one shot even once by it. Did it take half my HP away from my build using random blue gear? Yes. But it was never a one shot. The status effect damage DoTs are even more laughable and not a death sentence unless stacked . What's funny is that is exactly what React is showing.

And what's strange is the idea that they should live versus many players stacking damage on them...because...what? They think it's skill to not have to run purge or anything else and be able to defeat people until they run into these builds that hard counter them?

I cannot take them seriously when that's the case. When someone is advocating for the game to be made easier for them to kill others, then pretend that it takes skill to do so with their build.

Also, I have a setup with tank-like stats too and 0 people on PC NA and EU have been able to one shot me. So I find what they are saying kind of questionable, especially since they have a vested interest in seeing the mythic and status damage nerfed.

Not that I don't agree that the mythic should be nerfed, but can we not do it in bad faith and be honest and transparent about it?

I could have sworn I read the same guys complain about DoT damage and helping usher in this boring tanky brawler META to begin with.

So in your own words, "all you do is fire siege on a tank build". I'm sure you have a very informed and knowledgeable opinion on this matter. Thank you for attacking my integrity while offering nothing of substance whatsoever.

Luneca · May 29

React wrote: »

So in your own words, "all you do is fire siege on a tank build". I'm sure you have a very informed and knowledgeable opinion on this matter. Thank you for attacking my integrity while offering nothing of substance whatsoever.

You do know firing on siege gets you hit by the one shotters all the time?

Your claim still isn't true. Not much more needs to be said about that unless an actual counter can be made. But it can't because the claim can be checked by anyone on live whether or not they will get one shot with those stats. It shouldn't happen and that's before "reacting" with roll and block even comes into play.

By the way with those similar stats, I actually countered 6 gankers using that setup, not just 1. And if someone as "unskilled" as me can do it, it kinda seems just so unbelievable that players that routinely have brought up skill arguments on the forums are incapable of doing so. Unless of course, they're exaggerating the effect of something.

Let's also be clear about something. The DoT damage from burning is neglible even on my character without any real build andOnly 20k resistances, 2.2k crit resist. The one shots don't even work often then. And I'm literally wearing random blue gear.

I'll keep focusing on the subject and not the person. I already can see so far ahead that it might seem like I have pre-cognition at this point.

That someone would dispute a claim on a forum should be expected. No one is above criticism or challenge in an open space. I don't belive your claim because I know it's false.