Pulse Ganker and Shattered Mythic

SundarahFr3akinrican · May 13

Is ZOS doing anything about this? 170k DPS combo on the 321k dummy? That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen.

This is starting to show up in my BGs and it is astronomically stronger than anything I have ever encountered. what the heck is going on?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_COx3sCUQpg

Nordstern · May 13

One has to wonder how something like this can go through testing.

Jeremy · May 18

Yes... it is the most abominably stupid thing I've ever seen. And almost everyone is using it now, especially during prime time. You might as well go into the battleground naked. There won't be much difference.

Nordstern · May 19

This went through 5 weeks of pts and will still go live?

ItsNotLiving · May 19

My path has truly been shattered.

LadyGP · May 19

I try very hard - very very heard - to be open minded and obkective to all different playstyles.. the last thing I want to do is suggest changes that may push a player out of the game.

What is happening with these builds in Cyro right now is hands down some of the most toxic gameplay I've ever seen.

The endless ganker spam, sitting on the walls and oneshotting you from a mile away, 15 people coming out of stealth all over the field oneshotting every single person that goes by making it impossible to get anywhere on the map, it's a very toxic playstyle that certain groups are hammering down right now while they can.

I don't mind gankers - but these are different. A typical ganker if I do so much as breath on you... you're pretyt much dead. These ones take a good amount of dmg (from my DK mind you) and can turn around heal through a good chunk of dmg and them poof you're dead.

what makes it even more frustrating is that everything hits in under 1 second it's very - VERY - common that you just fall over dead before hearing anything, seeing any indication you've been targeted or have skills about to hit you, etc.

It's literally just walking... oh I'm dead.... oh nice audio queue2 seconds later.... sigh.

This is one of the first play styles that actually has me questioning if I want to log in and play or not...

Maybe my experience is very isolated and its not that bad - I will say almost all the gankers running this are on EP so.... EPs opinions are biased

But yeah... fun times.

moo_2021 · May 19

Is it useful with CP only? haven't seen anyone running it in BG

olsborg · May 19

I wont log into cyrodiil until this mythic is done and nerfed hard. Thankfully vengeance is coming soon.

Nordstern · May 19

And as soon as one of these pulse gankers gets targeted they just spam streak. Its so pathetic

SundarahFr3akinrican · May 20

moo_2021 wrote: »

Is it useful with CP only? haven't seen anyone running it in BG

I'm assuming these players win all their games, so your mmr has to be high in order to see them.

If you havent seen it yet, it blows anything youve seen out of the water. You thought DKs were OP? This is something beyond that. Atleast dks have to charge ulties and block a bit and stuff. This is literally 35m pulse and auto and youre dead. Even the tankiest guy on your team, dead. Its not even melt, it is just strait dead or if you are a tank 100 to 10% then dead after auto.

Also they run the Propelling Shield skill in Alliance tree and their 35 meter skill just turned into a 42 meter skill.

It is worse than anything ive ever seen.

React · May 20

Now that this mythic has had time to take hold, I can confidently say this;

This is the worst meta I have ever seen. Period.

On the PC NA server in particular, cyrodiil has degenerated into the most unskilled, thoughtless ranged spam mess in it's history. So many people are just running pure status effects and nothing else, using elemental susceptibility or force pulse as their spammable, and just abusing this to the absolute maximum it can be abused. It is horrendous. You cannot fight back at all with just one or two people doing this in a fight, and I am not exaggerating when I say it seems about 50% of the population is now participating.

Every single fight burning is the #1 damage received. Often times, chilled and concussed are #2 and #3. Almost always they're located somewhere in the top 5. Most of the time I have 3-6 instances of elemental susceptibility on me simultaneously. The damage is unavoidable; you cannot counterplay it. Doesn't matter how much you block, roll, how tanky you build. You just die to people spamming a free-to-cast undodgeable and unblockable skill on you.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom I really hope the team is not going to let this just ride until update 51 in four months or whatever. In general I've been very happy with the trajectory of the game as of late and have been sharing those thoughts with anybody who asks. This mythic and the status spam that has now become prevalent has completely taken the wind out of my sails. I cannot imagine continuing to log in to play PVP when I know I'm just going to be dealing with something that has no counterplay whatsoever from the majority of people playing PVP. I know there are many others who share this sentiment as I see it daily in any community I'm a part of where ESO discussions take place.

Avran_Sylt · May 20

React wrote: »

Now that this mythic has had time to take hold, I can confidently say this;

This is the worst meta I have ever seen. Period.

On the PC NA server in particular, cyrodiil has degenerated into the most unskilled, thoughtless ranged spam mess in it's history. So many people are just running pure status effects and nothing else, using elemental susceptibility or force pulse as their spammable, and just abusing this to the absolute maximum it can be abused. It is horrendous. You cannot fight back at all with just one or two people doing this in a fight, and I am not exaggerating when I say it seems about 50% of the population is now participating.

Every single fight burning is the #1 damage received. Often times, chilled and concussed are #2 and #3. Almost always they're located somewhere in the top 5. Most of the time I have 3-6 instances of elemental susceptibility on me simultaneously. The damage is unavoidable; you cannot counterplay it. Doesn't matter how much you block, roll, how tanky you build. You just die to people spamming a free-to-cast undodgeable and unblockable skill on you.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom I really hope the team is not going to let this just ride until update 51 in four months or whatever. In general I've been very happy with the trajectory of the game as of late and have been sharing those thoughts with anybody who asks. This mythic and the status spam that has now become prevalent has completely taken the wind out of my sails. I cannot imagine continuing to log in to play PVP when I know I'm just going to be dealing with something that has no counterplay whatsoever from the majority of people playing PVP. I know there are many others who share this sentiment as I see it daily in any community I'm a part of where ESO discussions take place.

I agree with everything you said.

But also: The TTK is lower!

Rohamad_Ali · May 20

Gankers will always find something. I got rekt tonight. I thought it was funny.

Luneca · May 20

Damage is toxic, but extreme damage reduction builds can be kept quiet about because it helps players facetank without blocking and "skillfully" 1vX with 0 real threat of actually dying?

The PvP community in this game can't be serious. Is it annoying? Yes. But why should you have an easy mode to kill more than one person because you run so much reduction?

I think it's great tbh. Really keeps the excitement up. Now if only we can complete Fortnite in ESO. Then it'd be better.

Urzigurumash · May 20

With damage increasing every patch for the last 5 years, it was easy to see this coming.

How was it not clear to all that more and more damage would eventually result in an ultra low ttk meta that's neither fun nor skillfull?

Sluggy · May 20

Players: TTK is too high. Tanks are everywhere.

Also Players: TTK is too low. People are dying left and right?

Also Players: There's no build variety. Everyone is running the same build.

Also Players: *Creating more viable builds than I've seen in three years*

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Oblivion_Protocol · May 20

Urzigurumash wrote: »

How was it not clear to all that more and more damage would eventually result in an ultra low ttk meta that's neither fun nor skillfull?

Disagree about the fun part. I’m having the time of my life. I’ve always enjoyed the ganker playstyle, and this is just the final form of it. It is what it is, and I’m going to enjoy it before the pendulum swings back the other way and you start seeing 60k HP tanks that can still kill you. Because you just know that’s what’s coming next.

Urzigurumash · May 20

Sluggy wrote: »

Players: TTK is too high. Tanks are everywhere.

Also Players: TTK is too low. People are dying left and right?

Also Players: There's no build variety. Everyone is running the same build.

Also Players: *Creating more viable builds than I've seen in three years*

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yes people must identify their platform and content for their comments to have any meaning.

I'm Xbox NA Solo Q BGs. 0 tanks. Ever. Never have existed never will. Average 2 gcd ttk against most of my targets.

Most players here I assume are PC NA GH. I take it there's tons of tanks and tons of stairdancers, average ttk of 45 minutes.

Urzigurumash · May 20

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

How was it not clear to all that more and more damage would eventually result in an ultra low ttk meta that's neither fun nor skillfull?

Disagree about the fun part. I’m having the time of my life. I’ve always enjoyed the ganker playstyle, and this is just the final form of it. It is what it is, and I’m going to enjoy it before the pendulum swings back the other way and you start seeing 60k HP tanks that can still kill you. Because you just know that’s what’s coming next.

It's fun in its own way sure. Compelling I guess is the better adjective, or maybe suspenseful, or interesting. Again I'm Solo Q BG so the present underperformance of MMR has a considerable effect on ttk and compellingness.

SundarahFr3akinrican · May 20

Luneca wrote: »

Damage is toxic, but extreme damage reduction builds can be kept quiet about because it helps players facetank without blocking and "skillfully" 1vX with 0 real threat of actually dying?

The PvP community in this game can't be serious. Is it annoying? Yes. But why should you have an easy mode to kill more than one person because you run so much reduction?

I think it's great tbh. Really keeps the excitement up. Now if only we can complete Fortnite in ESO. Then it'd be better.

TTK is long in this game, i agree. And the meta of these tanks bunkering up unless they are in their 3 second kill window every minute is annoying.

But this specific build is leagues beyond any other method to be a ganker or damage dealer. This isnt even ganking, its exploitative in my opinion. There is no counter play even if you are attentive to the fact you are getting attacked by them. And if you want to be a ganker, there is no other thing you should be running but this set up, and thats not esos core goal.

Ganking should require some type of set up. Not just be max range and auto attack, skill, kill you.

And if you are running around exploiting this, im sure its fun to be killing all these tanks, but that doesnt change the fact that it is exploitative.

React · May 20

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I agree with everything you said.

But also: The TTK is lower!

Sluggy wrote: »

Players: TTK is too high. Tanks are everywhere.

Also Players: TTK is too low. People are dying left and right?

Also Players: There's no build variety. Everyone is running the same build.

Also Players: *Creating more viable builds than I've seen in three years*

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I do actually agree the TTK in ESO could be lower in general. But I disagree with how it is currently being achieved.

The problem with this damage is that there is no counterplay to it. People are sitting at max range, spamming a free-to-cast undodgeable & unblockable skill and pulling off some of the best DPS you can achieve with zero opportunity cost whatsoever. No sets that need to be slotted beside the mythic, no need to run high damage to get an obscene payoff, no need to be in melee range.

This is genuinely no better than any given problematic proc set from the past. Old savage WW, sloads on release, relequen, old master DW, etc.

Lower TTK should be achieved through allowing for well timed burst combos with clear counterplay, or through pressure setups which require multiple skills to be juggled in a carefully maintained rotation. That could not be further from the reality that is the current status effect spam we're seeing.

Something needs to be done. Either the mythic needs a substantial nerf or mechanical change altogether, or status effects themselves need to be reworked so that only burning (and maybe poisoned) deal damage, with the rest acting as debuffs (as they always should have been). Elemental susceptibility should be changed regardless of whether they adjust the two aforementioned things, too.

Nordstern · May 20

Sluggy wrote: »

Players: TTK is too high. Tanks are everywhere.

Also Players: TTK is too low. People are dying left and right?

Also Players: There's no build variety. Everyone is running the same build.

Also Players: *Creating more viable builds than I've seen in three years*

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Talking about "ttk" in this game doesnt make any sense. There just shouldnt be setups where you can be unkillable in pvp with some 50k hp perm block bs and there shouldnt be setups where you can easily kill almost anyone running a standard build one shot from range. Both could easily be adressed. Theres a cap for crit damage, theres a cap for resistances. Why is there no hp cap in pvp? 35k should be absolute max. And sps should be removed entirely, i dont think anyone ever tested this seriously in pvp or pve.

YandereGirlfriend · May 20

React wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I agree with everything you said.

But also: The TTK is lower!

Sluggy wrote: »

Players: TTK is too high. Tanks are everywhere.

Also Players: TTK is too low. People are dying left and right?

Also Players: There's no build variety. Everyone is running the same build.

Also Players: *Creating more viable builds than I've seen in three years*

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I do actually agree the TTK in ESO could be lower in general. But I disagree with how it is currently being achieved.

The problem with this damage is that there is no counterplay to it. People are sitting at max range, spamming a free-to-cast undodgeable & unblockable skill and pulling off some of the best DPS you can achieve with zero opportunity cost whatsoever. No sets that need to be slotted beside the mythic, no need to run high damage to get an obscene payoff, no need to be in melee range.

This is genuinely no better than any given problematic proc set from the past. Old savage WW, sloads on release, relequen, old master DW, etc.

Lower TTK should be achieved through allowing for well timed burst combos with clear counterplay, or through pressure setups which require multiple skills to be juggled in a carefully maintained rotation. That could not be further from the reality that is the current status effect spam we're seeing.

Something needs to be done. Either the mythic needs a substantial nerf or mechanical change altogether, or status effects themselves need to be reworked so that only burning (and maybe poisoned) deal damage, with the rest acting as debuffs (as they always should have been). Elemental susceptibility should be changed regardless of whether they adjust the two aforementioned things, too.

Unfortunately, the build is almost as strong with Monomyth so the whole supporting structure needs to be removed by root and branch.

Things like eliminating the status effect damage of the non-Burning/Poison/Bleed elements would be a strong start.

As would disallowing class damage procs like Crystal Weapon and Scholarship (also Elemental Weapon) to stack and proc off of each other.

If that is done then Draugrkin probably doesn't need to be touched. Otherwise, that set should be sledgehammered.

This is in addition to assumed changes to Ele Sus and nerfing the status effect chance of Force Pulse to single-target DOT standards to match comparable skills such as Flurry.

SundarahFr3akinrican · May 20

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

React wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I agree with everything you said.

But also: The TTK is lower!

Sluggy wrote: »

Players: TTK is too high. Tanks are everywhere.

Also Players: TTK is too low. People are dying left and right?

Also Players: There's no build variety. Everyone is running the same build.

Also Players: *Creating more viable builds than I've seen in three years*

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I do actually agree the TTK in ESO could be lower in general. But I disagree with how it is currently being achieved.

The problem with this damage is that there is no counterplay to it. People are sitting at max range, spamming a free-to-cast undodgeable & unblockable skill and pulling off some of the best DPS you can achieve with zero opportunity cost whatsoever. No sets that need to be slotted beside the mythic, no need to run high damage to get an obscene payoff, no need to be in melee range.

This is genuinely no better than any given problematic proc set from the past. Old savage WW, sloads on release, relequen, old master DW, etc.

Lower TTK should be achieved through allowing for well timed burst combos with clear counterplay, or through pressure setups which require multiple skills to be juggled in a carefully maintained rotation. That could not be further from the reality that is the current status effect spam we're seeing.

Something needs to be done. Either the mythic needs a substantial nerf or mechanical change altogether, or status effects themselves need to be reworked so that only burning (and maybe poisoned) deal damage, with the rest acting as debuffs (as they always should have been). Elemental susceptibility should be changed regardless of whether they adjust the two aforementioned things, too.

Unfortunately, the build is almost as strong with Monomyth so the whole supporting structure needs to be removed by root and branch.

Things like eliminating the status effect damage of the non-Burning/Poison/Bleed elements would be a strong start.

As would disallowing class damage procs like Crystal Weapon and Scholarship (also Elemental Weapon) to stack and proc off of each other.

If that is done then Draugrkin probably doesn't need to be touched. Otherwise, that set should be sledgehammered.

This is in addition to assumed changes to Ele Sus and nerfing the status effect chance of Force Pulse to single-target DOT standards to match comparable skills such as Flurry.

Yeah nerfing the mythic would still make this set up grossly over tuned.

React · May 20

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Unfortunately, the build is almost as strong with Monomyth so the whole supporting structure needs to be removed by root and branch.

Things like eliminating the status effect damage of the non-Burning/Poison/Bleed elements would be a strong start.

As would disallowing class damage procs like Crystal Weapon and Scholarship (also Elemental Weapon) to stack and proc off of each other.

If that is done then Draugrkin probably doesn't need to be touched. Otherwise, that set should be sledgehammered.

This is in addition to assumed changes to Ele Sus and nerfing the status effect chance of Force Pulse to single-target DOT standards to match comparable skills such as Flurry.

The monomyth statement might be true for the glass-cannon "ganker" build yeah, and I know that is the title of this thread. But what I've been seeing this past week in cyrodiil is even your normal everyday cyrodiil mains using 30-35k HP are now doing the same exact thing - using this mythic and spamming ele susc from range, sometimes with additional ranged sources of status effects too. They're doing this because of how effective it is even when you remove the "force pulse gank" parts from the equation.

At least with monomyth they need to actually have damage and land abilities which can be blocked or dodged.

YandereGirlfriend · May 20

React wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Unfortunately, the build is almost as strong with Monomyth so the whole supporting structure needs to be removed by root and branch.

Things like eliminating the status effect damage of the non-Burning/Poison/Bleed elements would be a strong start.

As would disallowing class damage procs like Crystal Weapon and Scholarship (also Elemental Weapon) to stack and proc off of each other.

If that is done then Draugrkin probably doesn't need to be touched. Otherwise, that set should be sledgehammered.

This is in addition to assumed changes to Ele Sus and nerfing the status effect chance of Force Pulse to single-target DOT standards to match comparable skills such as Flurry.

The monomyth statement might be true for the glass-cannon "ganker" build yeah, and I know that is the title of this thread. But what I've been seeing this past week in cyrodiil is even your normal everyday cyrodiil mains using 30-35k HP are now doing the same exact thing - using this mythic and spamming ele susc from range, sometimes with additional ranged sources of status effects too. They're doing this because of how effective it is even when you remove the "force pulse gank" parts from the equation.

At least with monomyth they need to actually have damage and land abilities which can be blocked or dodged.

Both should be deleted from the game.

The Monomyth setup's only addition is landing a 35m light attack -> Crystal Weapon proc -> Scholarship proc on top of glyph proc -> status effect from glyph proc all in the same 10ms and arriving at the same time as the rest of the Force Pulse combo.

Certainly, the easiest simple fix to what you describe is to "Against Monsters" Signet and no longer worry about it. But immediately after doing that, all of the current Signet enjoyers will roll-over to Mono and continue on as before.

So the Mono config and the underlying mechanics that enable the build must be dismantled as well.

Turtle_Bot · May 21

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

React wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I agree with everything you said.

But also: The TTK is lower!

Sluggy wrote: »

Players: TTK is too high. Tanks are everywhere.

Also Players: TTK is too low. People are dying left and right?

Also Players: There's no build variety. Everyone is running the same build.

Also Players: *Creating more viable builds than I've seen in three years*

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I do actually agree the TTK in ESO could be lower in general. But I disagree with how it is currently being achieved.

The problem with this damage is that there is no counterplay to it. People are sitting at max range, spamming a free-to-cast undodgeable & unblockable skill and pulling off some of the best DPS you can achieve with zero opportunity cost whatsoever. No sets that need to be slotted beside the mythic, no need to run high damage to get an obscene payoff, no need to be in melee range.

This is genuinely no better than any given problematic proc set from the past. Old savage WW, sloads on release, relequen, old master DW, etc.

Lower TTK should be achieved through allowing for well timed burst combos with clear counterplay, or through pressure setups which require multiple skills to be juggled in a carefully maintained rotation. That could not be further from the reality that is the current status effect spam we're seeing.

Something needs to be done. Either the mythic needs a substantial nerf or mechanical change altogether, or status effects themselves need to be reworked so that only burning (and maybe poisoned) deal damage, with the rest acting as debuffs (as they always should have been). Elemental susceptibility should be changed regardless of whether they adjust the two aforementioned things, too.

Unfortunately, the build is almost as strong with Monomyth so the whole supporting structure needs to be removed by root and branch.

Things like eliminating the status effect damage of the non-Burning/Poison/Bleed elements would be a strong start.

As would disallowing class damage procs like Crystal Weapon and Scholarship (also Elemental Weapon) to stack and proc off of each other.

If that is done then Draugrkin probably doesn't need to be touched. Otherwise, that set should be sledgehammered.

This is in addition to assumed changes to Ele Sus and nerfing the status effect chance of Force Pulse to single-target DOT standards to match comparable skills such as Flurry.

The main issue I have with eliminating the damage from non DoT status effects is that doing so completely kills all damage types except those 3 that keep their damage components (flame, poison and bleed).

Concussed is simply minor vulnerability at that point (like it used to be) and given the current lack of good options for shock damage overall, how insanely easy it is to get this debuff already and how this debuff is globally applicable for all damage instead of limited to shock damage only, it would completely kill off any reason to build around this damage type.

Chilled would simply be reverted back to the "tank status effect" for it's snare and brittle debuffs and not worth building around even on a frost warden.

Sundered would revert to DD specific status effect in highly optimized PvE groups just to min-max that 100 weapon/spell damage (and maybe allow some groups to drop minor breach from their tank/supports for something else).

Disease would just be completely useless in PvE and niche for PvP.

Overcharged would be nearly as useless as concussed, only seeing some slight use for the small sustain it grants from it's magicka steal debuff and due to how common magic damage is it will be there inherently anyway.

I agree that status builds post signet need addressing, but reverting status effects so that every damage type just becomes inferior to or only exist to support the flame, poison and bleed damage types just because those 3 specifically got to keep their damage is not the way to do this. Either ALL status effects need to lose their DPS (which would mean burning, poison and hemorrhage would need complete reworks to be their own debuffs) or none do.

I would honestly rather see status effects be damage type specific buffs/debuffs for their respective damage types (values not given because numbers would be up to ZOS to balance based on playstyle, ability/effect access, synergies, etc. of each damage type):

- Burning increases flame damage over time taken.
- Poisoned increases poison damage taken based on remaining health.
- Chilled increases direct frost damage taken per stack.
- Concussed increases crit damage of shock damage.
- Diseased increases disease damage taken based on nearby targets afflicted with diseased status.
- Hemorrhage increases bleed damage done to moving targets.
- Sundered would become unique armor reduction that applies for physical damage only.
- Overcharged would grant unique spell damage for magic damage only.

This way every status is unique (and hopefully somewhat thematic), but only really useful for their own damage types and builds that try to focus on those types exclusively, not just generic bonuses or free procs for every build and would hopefully keep all of them useful.

CoolAsh · May 21

Lowering damage and healing output while increasing maximum health would solve the burst kill meta, as well as the issues with unkillable tanks and those annoying PvP healers.

Luneca · May 21

CoolAsh wrote: »

Lowering damage and healing output while increasing maximum health would solve the burst kill meta, as well as the issues with unkillable tanks and those annoying PvP healers.

For people that want that, there's already Vengeance.

Firstmep · May 21

Sluggy wrote: »

Players: TTK is too high. Tanks are everywhere.

Also Players: TTK is too low. People are dying left and right?

Also Players: There's no build variety. Everyone is running the same build.

Also Players: *Creating more viable builds than I've seen in three years*

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Different people can have different ideas and opinions.

xylena · May 21

Seems like a massive design failure that intended pressure sets like Draugrkin and now the broken Shattered Path mythic are being used to one shot burst gank. Too many of these effects tick immediately, addressing that would nerf the burst without nerfing the pressure.