I think this is fantastic news and thank you very much for the update.

Being a DK player I like the sounds of the increased damage over shorter duration. With subclassing every player runs a cleanse, let’s face it 90% of players are running restoring light and animal companions. Which means that DOT damage builds which I love are far less effective and I’m constantly reapplying, the more damage that can be done before a player drops a cleanse the better.

Might I suggest that a passive that might be nice here is some sort of explosion like plague break for when players cleanse the DOTs obviously reworked so it only affects a singular player.

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

Well if you hadn't introduced subclassing in the first place, something I don't believe anyone asked for in great numbers) you wouldn't have to do all this now.

A simple solution would be to boost DPS/Healing/Tanking of all Pure classes (ie classes that use only their original skill lines) by 10-15%. Simply add a new passive that can only be active if all original skill lines are present:

Pure Passive

Adds 15% to all damage
Adds 15% to all healing
Adds 15% to all resists and boosts health by 10%

Job done.

This here was a conciser version of what I was thinking. Good by itself, but my version also gave some love to players who still wanted to subclass to a lesser degree, by giving half the purity bonus based on how pure your class is. If youre three x sorc then you get the fat whopping 20 percent across the board. if youre two x sorc and one rando sub then you get half so 10 percent across the board. nothing if you go three diff classes since youre more into subclass bonuses anyway.


That would make everybody who wants purity happy long enough for you to go through each class one at a time and milk out that sweet update milk for each class one class at a time. Otherwise everybody is going to be mad that their class isnt next.


But I had to log in when i saw skinnys video tbh i was jacked to the *** soon as i realized u guys were gonna give pure classes what they want now, even tho I was jackder over subclassing till u nerfed it to oblivion in the pts but thats water under the bridge. ngl I'm halfway knowing u guys will just nerf whatever shiny things u give individual classes in every pts but at least if you start off on the right foot like the poster above suggested itll go over less harsh with the playerbase maybe.

Congrats on listening to the community. I like what I'm hearing these days.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_NickD After having read the post, a few things to go over here:

• Firstly, credit where it's due: The communication has been very much improved recently under Nick, not just how things are said, but what is being said as well (more in-depth explanations, answering questions, taking accountability, all of which has been amazing/refreshing to see). What remains to be seen now is the actions to back up that communication. Specifically for this project, I would Ideally like to see ZOS follow the following structure with these class refreshes:
  1. Reveal intended goals and proposed changes for each class while the changes are still in their design phase.

  This gives the community (especially mains of respective classes) the ability to comment at an early enough stage if the changes will work or not (and not just from a balance perspective, but a design/theme/fantasy perspective as well, and allows ZOS the ability to obtain such data early enough to make changes before it becomes too late to do so. A good way to do this would be to also have in-game announcements/UI menus for players to explore each class's proposed refresh so you can still get feedback from live servers, not just limited PTS engagement.

  2. Take on board the early feedback given regarding the classes during the design process and use that to alter designs as needed to ensure an acceptable outcome for not only your own vision, but the players (see customers) visions of their class as well. (e.g. lets please not just see more of the same from the past 5-8 years where sorcerer is forced even more into being a zookeeper revolving all its magic around the summons when it's supposed to be a master of the arcane with 1 familiar that assists the sorcerer with its magic).
  3. Keep the "Refreshed" classes only available on the PTS until all 7 classes have been refreshed, then push it to live once all 7 are done.

  With the current patch cycle cadence, it will take nearly 2 years to finish all 7 classes, which will likely result in needing to refresh the first class again once the last class has been done. At least by keeping them on the PTS, they can be tested not only individually, but also with each other and sub-classing as more are made available on the PTS, which allows more time for players and ZOS to see and catch any undesirable interactions. Combined with the first 2 points regarding early feedback during the design stages above, this still allows for obtaining data from the live servers while not completely destroying live balance in the process.

  4. Ensure current classes on live servers are being updated (not necessarily fully balanced) at least with simple numbers tweaks.

  This is to ensure the game doesn't go stale while waiting for all 7 classes to be refreshed and just being numbers tweaks should be simple enough to not require extensive developer time that would take away from this project.

  5. Once all 7 classes have been refreshed using player (see customer) feedback, use incremental patches to push small numbers tweaks, as needed to allow yourselves the ability to balance often, saving large changes such as a new class or weapons/skills/system updates/etc. for the major patches.
• Secondly, I want to give some feedback regarding the order chosen. I do appreciate that you are willing to adjust the order if required.
  
  Spoiler is an explanation on each class

  - DragonKnight

  Outside of the sustain issues that U46 brought the class, this class actually felt in a good spot as a pure class, being very strong (near meta) in PvE for DPS and tank roles and having a niche but strong build for PvP too.
  The only thing this class really felt lacking post sub-classing (speaking for a pure class) was the sustain that got nerfed in U46.
  When factoring in sub-classing DK's main issues were that it's delayed burst (inhale) and best DoT (burning talons morph) were not in the DPS line.
  It hardly felt like a class that needed top priority for a refresh as it was at/near the top for multiple roles and was viable in both PvE and PvP and had been completely refreshed roughly 4 years ago around U30.

  - Warden

  Outside of issues with things like shulks not hitting some PvE bosses and the flip-flopping on what to do with the frost sub-theme Warden was already strong in PvE being a meta healer and decent off-tank.
  The class was also already very strong in PvP with it's DPS line being near mandatory in most PvP builds and the class script being insanely overpowered (and buggy) in PvP too.
  The main issues this class had was with PvE DPS and those were mostly due to shulks not hitting bosses (as mentioned before), dive being extremely clunky (slow and weak) to use for a spammable ability and the class DoTs being split across 2 different skill lines/themes. Once again, hardly seems like a class that needed top priority for a refresh outside of 1 specific PvE role.

  - Sorcerer

  Currently near the bottom for PvE DPS, has a niche as a PvE tank, and proc-sorc (see stamina sorcerer) has a niche in PvP thanks to sub-classing giving that specific playstyle it's own complete build.
  Sorcerer as a class/theme though has been needing a proper update/refresh/redesign for far too long now and it needs moving away from it's current zookeeper status and bringing back to its roots, that being a mage first and foremost, with 1 (maybe 2) familiars (daedra) that it has a pact with, that it uses to boost it's arcane prowess.
  The recent changes only ever exacerbated the issues the class has since it's key abilities don't have any real secondary effects or support or bonuses like the other classes, it's abilities need to be given insane numbers just to keep up which just creates massive balance issues trying to get those numbers right.
  Having very little in the way of group support also hinders the class for group content, why bring a single target parse class with almost zero group support for group content that demands massive cleave, when you can bring a full cleave parse class (Arcanist) that also provides additional group support/synergies on top of this.
  When it comes to sub-classing, Sorcerer just doesn't mix with the system at all. Unlike other classes, the spammable, 2/3 of the best DoTs and the delayed burst abilities are all in the 2 support skill lines, not the DPS line where all the class DPS passives are, meanwhile the DPS line has lots of utility abilities that make a nice mixed line in PvP, but leave much to be desired in PvE.
  Finally, the shock theme (Sorcerers element) has been languishing below even the frost theme in terms of being outdated, it's time to bring shock theme up to par with it's elemental counterparts, it should be a bursty cleave style of damage that comes in short frequent bursts. Definitely one class that is the most in need of a refresh, however with how much needs doing, I would not expect it to be first and it would definitely require a lot of player input/feedback during the design phase to get it right.

  - Templar

  Given the recent adjustments to this class in U46, this class actually felt in a decent spot. Good cleave DPS for PvE alongside strong group support/synergy, strong individual abilities for PvP that are easy to sub-class a build around, best execute for PvE, giving it a niche to fill/reason to bring it over something else. Some of the strongest healing in the game (especially in PvP where cleanses are much more impactful).
  What templar suffers from (imo) is the fact that it has too many DPS style abilities to fit into a single DPS line, so it feels forced to miss out on something unless it keeps both dawn's wrath and aedric spear. The other issues templar has are more to do with reworks that were never asked for (jabs), things that really could be made much simpler while retaining their current theme/design (PotL), class sets being too complex/convoluted and class script being good for DPS, but relying on the support line to get full value out of it.
  This would be a class (imo) that would be lower on the list (not at the bottom as there are things needed) for a refresh, especially since it got one very recently that (mostly) did a good job of brining the class up.

  - Nightblade

  This class has been King of PvP in some form or another for this games entire lifespan, being either THE meta class or right up there alongside the FotM meta class. This class also got a massive rework in U35, where it not only got new/updated abilities but also got given so many of the strengths that were supposed to be for other classes on top of this (templar levels of healing, sorcerer levels of mobility, etc.).
  The main issue is that the design of this class (waiting for an opportune moment to strike with 1 massive hit, using stealth to evade attacks, etc.) are insanely overpowered mechanics for PvP, but are borderline useless in PvE because PvE encounters are not designed to account for this playstyle. This playstyle is just inherently at odds with how PvE encounters are designed and this is not something that can be fixed by buffing abilities that are already far too overpowered for PvP where this playstyle actually works.
  What also doesn't help is that the DPS line (Assassination) is currently the only in-class way to buff crit chance, making it near mandatory for ESO where crit has been king for so long now (for both damage and healing, PvE and PvP).
  From a PvE perspective, this class would probably be first on the list, but from a PvP perspective, this class would be near it's current place on the list in terms of a refresh to update it.

  - Necromancer

  To me, Necro would have been the first class on the list to refresh. The theme needs updating to focus more on the "armies of undead" theme that Necromancers are known for, using their mastery of life and death to tether themselves to their armies, rather than their summons just being there alongside the Necromancer that is focusing entirely on being a solo Lich instead.
  Despite placing this so high on my list, this class would actually be one of the easier classes to fix (from a design perspective). Allow the summons to be treated as corpses for things like tethers, boneyard, etc. (this reduces the dependency on clunky corpses that may or may not exist and removes the downside of these abilities in recent encounters being designed to be significantly more mobile than in the past). Also bring the baseline of the abilities up to par, let the corpse mechanic (or summons) be the payoff/reason to pick this class instead of being the way to make this classes mediocre numbers equal to the other classes.

  - Arcanist -

  This class is the least in need of a refresh (benefit of being the most recently released class), so fitting that it's last on the list. However it does need some work, namely not forcing it into "beam or bust" like how Sorcerer above was forced into "pets or bust" in the past to the detriment of it's other playstyles, Arcanist needs care in it's eventual refresh to not just be all about beam and only beam when it does have other themes/ways to play it.

  Ideally I would have done the classes in the following order:
  1. Necromancer - Most in need of a refresh of its theme, but also one that should be relatively easy to refresh from a design perspective as outlined in my explanation above.
  2. Nightblade - Surprisingly I moved it here despite my explanation, it really needs it's theme to be better designed for PvE encounters in ways that actually keep it balanced in PvP instead of how it was done in the past where it just became overpowered in PvP while still not fixing PvE issues.
  3. Dragonknight - I've kept this one high, mostly because of the sheer amount of work, consultation and design that needs to go into Sorcerer to refresh that class. DK is an easy middle ground to work on while feedback is collected/consultation done on Sorcerer.
  4. Sorcerer - While it is one of the classes most in need of a refresh, it's also one of the hardest to truly refresh, hence why this is where it is on the list, to allow enough time during the design phase for proper consultation and feedback to get it right.
  5. Warden - This could be bumped up to 4th, swapping with Sorcerer if more time is needed to get Sorcerer right, but this does need refreshing on a few things and will need more the later it is done.
  6. Templar - Most of this classes issues stem from over-complexity of it's abilities such as PotL and class sets, the conflicting way the class script wants to be for DPS, but requires the healer line to get the most out of it, and player preference issues such as the Jabs visual (digging a hole instead of jabbing enemies with a spear), it is relatively refreshed thanks to the buffs it received in U46, thus is it lower on the list.
  7. Arcanist - Last on the list for a reason, being the most recent class it is the least in need of a refresh/update. It is worth mentioning once more though, that this class really needs to not be pushed into "beam or bust" when it is time for it's eventual refresh.
• Thirdly, something I touched on briefly in the second point regarding Sorcerer (and this point is mostly regarding the Sorcerer "Source of Power"/"Power Fantasy" as described in the article), since the descriptions explain a dark arcane mage making pacts with daedra, but the image of the class used (and even class icon itself) shows an Arcane Electromancer (lightning mage) at it's core, using Daedric pacts to enhance/supplement that magic even further. My main concern I'm raising here regarding Sorcerer is that this Lightning theme that is inherent across 2/3 of it's class lines, and is shown in the image of the class, and is the class icon itself, is going to be completely ignored in favor of "more pets" (basically I'm concerned ZOS is just going to do more of the past ~8 years to Sorcerer where it's mage identity has been constantly eroded/stripped away in favor of forcing it even further into "pets or bust"). Keep in mind that Lightning has been a relevant destruction magic theme across elder scrolls, on par with flame and frost, yet it is the most forgotten/undeveloped them of destruction magic in ESO.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official discussion thread for, "Developer Deep Dive—ESO's Class Identity Refresh"

"Read a deep dive letter from ZeniMax Online Studio’s Combat Team as they share their core philosophies, goals, and planning surrounding the future of ESO’s classes."

I'm not understanding this at all. ZOS rolls out subclassing as a main feature and selling point, now the benefits of subclassing are going to be taken away?

Functionally speaking ESO doesn't have classes anymore. We have skill lines.

I love Subclassing too, and this doesn’t sound like it detracts from that.

From what I read, it sounds like skills are going to be mixed around, they are removing Damage Dealer, Tank, and Healer as a designation for skill lines, and skills are going to be visually redesigned to fit within their new skill lines.

Where I believe “Pure Classing” will be supported, is through new passives that encourage Class playstyles, like “attrition DK” as a theme and the new “Avalanche” passive now supporting it better.

As long as none of these changes say, “when using Dragonknight skills” then this will still include those of us who enjoy Subclassing,

heaven13 wrote: »

I appreciate the communication and will wait to see how it plays out/shows up on PTS. That said, I do have some concerns.

1. Animation rework for skills. The updated jabs is still a contentious update and I still want my old jabs back. I'm not sure I love the idea of reworking classic skill visuals. I'm also concerned about skills that people have paid real money for to get new styles suddenly not becoming usable.
2. As others have mentioned, I am concerned about the timing, particularly since some changes remain unfinished for much longer than should be, or never get fixed.
3. Most importantly, I'm hoping that, instead of having a clear "DPS", "Tank", "Heal" line, like the newer classes have, lines are approached and built around theme and then the skills/morphs themselves are utilized to allow more build diversity. Right now, if you want to subclass, you take the line that matches your role, rather than what you want to build thematically. DK has fire, dragon, and earth - now imagine each of these having a combo of skills that work for any role. Imagine having some morphs inside Green Balance that damage instead of heal: thorns with a bleed for example. Combine Earthen Heart and Green Balance and get a more nature-themed type druid that is still a damage dealer. I know they mentioned that not every build will be optimal but if I'm going to subclass, I'd like to be able to do it by theme instead of role and still remain viable.

Unless they expand morph selection, increase what each skill does, or simply add more skills to choose from...

I am not sure how they accomplish all of it without diluting the available slots to the point that they are all lacking.

They have tried what you have said with the older classes and its just not working.

@ZOS_Kevin I really appreciate the communication style with this upcoming refresh. I would also just like to request Werewolf and Vampire skill lines also get a pass through and receive a Source of Power and Power Fantasy approach as well, these are really intriguing concepts.

I have been playing TESO for 8, 9 years now...I don't care what you do, if you don't ruin the game(which is perspectively biased, I know), I'm not going anywhere! I play other games; mostly ARPGs, but I play ESO every day that I'm not too ill to do so.

At least on paper, these changes looks better than my original idea of ​​adding class-set to IA, which would have given us a simple bonus (besides the usual useless set bonus): for each skill line of you original class you have equipped, your class abilities get a 5/10/25 damage boost, or adding Flames from Skyrim via Scribing, which should work almost like Fatecarver, but for all classes.
Class rebalancing might be a really good idea, let's hope they don't screw it up more than we we could have imagined.. The description of DK changes looks promising, at least…
This is my last hope for a non-pixelated Lightning Splash's ground effect. *crossing fingers*

Can't wait for the "Vengeance-ification" of the rest of the game, all so that the system can handle future cross-play.

ZOS shows once again they have no idea how to make and maintain an MMO game.

Blizzard rebelances ALL 13 classes regularly. At least once per expansion which is every 2-3 years. They also rebalance them in lesser extent between patches which is app. every half a year.

We have been stuck with this broken mess you call subclassing for over half a year without any meaningful balances, and now you're telling us you are going to go one-by-one OVER THE NEXT FEW YEARS?!

And let's not forget there's zero trust in ZOS abilities to balance things at this point.

What you've just announced is: "We're killing the game. You can all go play something else."

I took a look at the class rework order once again, and I wanna ask: Why doesn't NB have higher priority? Of course, I'm biased as an NB-main, but NB is the biggest balance disruptor right now.

TLDR: Pure-NB is in a really bad state (at least in PvE), but at the same time, it has good skill lines to multiclass, which contributes to multiclassing being OP.

Assassination is busted in PvP, and a must-have in PvE for DDs.

Siphoning is a must-have for healers in PvE.

Shadow is the least popular skill line in PvE for U46 and U47, according to logs. And nothing was changed in U48, so it will stay completely unusable. And Shadowy Disguise just doesn't work with some skills, like Shalks or Banner, for PvP reasons, which is Ok in PvP, but not Ok in PvE.

Let's continue with some legacy pre-multiclassing data and look at pure-NB performance:

NB was the least popular class in the latest trials from U41 to U45.

For all these updates, NB was competing with Warden for the title of the least popular DD. This was caused by the fact that NB has a pretty complex rotation, which punishes you for not weaving properly, a pretty low cleave, ST-damage isn't great, and low group utility - why play NB in this case?

At the same time, NB was competing with Warden and Templar for the title of the least popular Tank, because it once again had low group utility.

If we check out Healers, NB was always in the top 3, so it's good in at least one role.

You may note that Warden has similar problems, but it's not. Warden is the most popular Healer by a large margin; you always need it for Minor Toughness and group-wide Major Resolve. Unlike NB, who's situational. And Warden Tank isn't popular because it has no group utility, but because it has no group utility that Warden Healer can't provide, and Warden Healers are in every group. But in case you don't have Warden Healer for some reason, like you're running a dungeon with 1T3DD comp, Warden Tank is great, and in trials it would be a must-have. Unlike NB, who stays bad even without the NB-healer in the group.

Remove speed from the equation for leaderboard scoring. IA is so relaxing without a speed requirement. Alternatively replace speed with 'damage received' where less is a better score. This would reward faster completions, but also allow for other options.

Why not take a step back and focus on ESO’s core philosophy of “play the way you want”?

Skyrim and Oblivion were beloved because of the freedom they offered by mixing spells, weapons, and skill lines however players imagined. ESO was originally built on that same foundation. Most of us still want that open-ended creativity and identity customization to remain central to the game.

When it comes to class identity refreshes, everyone understands that group content like trials and veteran dungeons still requires the holy trinity tank, healer, and DPS. Even with open skill lines, you can’t realistically clear difficult content without roles being filled. And that’s totally fine roles can exist while still letting us build them more freely.

Imagine returning to the classic Elder Scrolls design approach:

- Destruction magic
- Restoration magic
- Daedric summoning / Conjuration
- Alteration / Utility magic
- Illusion magic (stealth, deception — perfect for Nightblade-style play)
- Bow skills
- Dual wield
- Two-handed
- Sword & board

All of these could be freely combined to form your own version of a “class.”
Great for roleplay, character identity, and build diversity.

What you wear, the gear: matters true identity through equipment and mastery

Weapons and armor would determine what skills and passives become active:
If you equip bows, bow-skill actives and passives apply
If you equip staves, magical abilities synergize and unlock
Heavy vs. medium vs. light armor changes survivability and resource focus
You are what you wear and train, just like Skyrim and a proper Elder Scrolls Game should be.

You can only use active weapon abilities when that weapon is equipped, which reinforces intentional build choices and character roles in group content. If you equip sword and board, the game makes you think you are a tank. What kind of tank? depending on what you want. But you should be a tank. By sticking on this or on your core role will get more benefits and rewards your character better.

This still preserves tanks, healers, and DPS but without locking identity behind pre-selected classes.

Deeper progression = more content + long-term goals
Unlock advanced abilities through unique questlines, such as:

Master Conjurer quests that teach powerful summons. Summons will are now summons. it will help you tank, or even damage enemies. Not a buff-giving stupid skeleton summon.

Master Nightblade mentors who train elite assassination skills, I.E. backstab damage, which gives true identity,

New skills per update =
More exploration
More player agency
More reasons to keep experimenting. No repetitive meta laser beams.

Players would be excited to see what combinations become possible next.

A fresh combat system that still feels like Elder Scrolls

I understand this would be a massive update and not something easy to implement. But this direction could revitalize ESO’s combat. Today, many builds feel repetitive different animations but similar mechanics.

Bringing back meaningful skill line expansion and true build freedom could restore that classic Elder Scrolls "Magical" feeling.

kriegwar13 wrote: »

Skyrim and Oblivion were beloved because of the freedom they offered by mixing spells, weapons, and skill lines however players imagined. ESO was originally built on that same foundation. Most of us still want that open-ended creativity and identity customization to remain central to the game.

Skyrim and Oblivion were single-player games. And ESO at launch totally had Classes, and they were really strict on “DK=tank, Templar=heals, Sorc=DPS, NB=PvP”

The major problem with the “just get rid of Classes lol” idea is that this is still an MMO, even if a lot of people prefer to stick to the single-player aspects. As we see with Subclassing currently, it destroyed balance in the endgame while giving the people who stick to overland the freedom they wanted.

Classes is the way that they’re able to balance in competitive arenas like endgame PvE or PvP. Saying “let’s just get rid of that!” is basically telling these playerbases that they are unwanted, and that is not appropriate. Every base will need to compromise to be able to coexist, and “Class structure, but still the freedom to do any role with any Class” is the compromise here.

We should all be interested in keeping as many players in ESO as possible, even if we don’t personally engage in that playstyle. After what happened to New World, we can’t even guarantee that Microsoft won’t decide to pull out at any moment and put all of this development into AI, so the best thing we can do is to ensure that the population is as healthy as possible so ESO is still profitable to the MS execs. And part of that will mean “change [X] would make things better for me and my playstyle, but it would be horrible for this other playstyle I don’t engage in, so it’s better not to do that and try a compromise solution instead.”

This has me worried:

Avalanche passive in Earthen Heart, which allows you to slowly build up momentum with a stacking damage bonus while in combat that can be lost if you fail to keep up the pressure.

From a PvP perspective, burst and mobility is king. I love the idea behind DoT playstyles but if every player has access to 100%+ move speed, fights can reset over and over which means a DoT DK would really struggle to make this kit effective. There’s also too many sources of purges in this game now, which I assume those would also reset this bonus.

Just skeptical I suppose.. I think it’s nice to hear the vision is still there but historically the changes made to DK and overall in game have pushed further and further away from this vision. One example, Scales used to make you fight a DK up close on their turf, or really have to time a ranged burst with a stun. Now, Scales are a D tier snare removal skill. Little changes like that have diminished the value of the DK class. And in parallel with the nerfs there’s been hard counters to DoT builds given out all over the game.

Another example, Fury used to be meta, it’s not even talked about now.