Well...
Let's start with positive stuff.

Communication is a lot better.
Im rather satisfied with this Deep Dive. Its a lot better that the combat one.
This is something that has to be done. It should have happened before subclassing tho.

Now...
While it's good to see something being done, you dont have great track record of finishing big reworks or updating added features.
Hybridisation is not finished. Scribing already feels forgotten just as IA. Companions, ToT, Hybridisation of alchemy, food rework... while it's impossible to keep working on everything forever, it seems like you abandon everything without polishing it and add new shiny thing hoping it will keep players interested.
Like, where is 3rd class set? Why there was only 1 new grimoire? Yeah...

Anyway i hope you will actually listen to players this time and it will not end like previous big changes.
Also i hope it wont end up like U35, where you forced long DoTs on everyone on top of hybridisation. Forcing everyone into long DoTs or short ones, it's the same. Only 1 side will be happy, not both. So i hope you will give players options instead of forcing everyone into one.

For more things i would need to see patch notes. Right now im just questioning how are you gonna "decentralize role-specific power so that a single skill line won’t have every tool you need to achieve your goals" while making Ardent Flame pure DPS skill line. I mean for what will you put Inhale if not for the Chains? I dont even want to think about other options...

Just please, post changes earlier so we have more time to give feedback.

I'm just going to keep playing the game and put my blinders on.
And not play with anyone else.

As a person who long ago chose my Warden class because it utilized the power of animals, I sure hope that they will still be a focus. I like the idea of Nature's seasons, but please keep the animals! Update them; don't make them dependent on Vvardenfell; and give us other animals then just a bear for our ultimate!

Happy to see the (continued) increased communication and relieved to see that many concerns are being heard and addressed, thanks.

I found more I want to break apart. I feel like we're getting a lot of words, but not a lot's actually being said TBH.

What does class identity mean to us?

For us, class identity is what makes a class unique and different from other classes. This covers everything from a part of who they are, what they can do, how they look, what they excel at, and what they don’t excel at. When we look at class identity, we use two core pillars to support the experience: source of power and power fantasy.

The infographic you guys have, while nice, should be articulating this point. At the end of the day, I want to hear from the developers what each class should excel at, and what it shouldn't. Broken down per role. Without that articulated, I will continue to have no faith in the combat team. Because it feels like you guys put all your energy into these lofty statements and design principles and other fluff, and it doesn't translate to something concrete and deliverable.

I would expect to see a matrix where each class has a rating for each role. Mocking up in Excel:



Something like that, albeit prettied up. That's my opinion of current state, but I think it behooves the team to provide one for the end goal of each class. When this endeavor is done, what's that final state going to look like. If you can't articulate that level of detail, then I'm sorry, I do not think this will be successful. I understand that it will be time consuming to do so, but without properly setting goals and expectations with ample specifics, the community and developers will continue to face tension.

What do we mean by “source of power”?

When we talk about the “source of power” for a class, we are referring to what the lore-relevant origin of a class’s power is and what might differentiate them from a “normal” citizen of Tamriel. Questions such as these come up: “What caused this person to become a Dragonknight/Arcanist/Sorcerer?” “What are their motivations?” “Where do they get their power from?” The answers to these questions help inform the way their abilities are developed as an extension of their source of power.

Lots to unpack here. Let's start with sorcerer. You guys are historically Oblivion-bent on making Sorcerers a pet class. What if we just disagree? What if we say that sorcerers should be more than a pet class, what then? What if there's demand for Sorcerers to also be storm mages or dark mages? Are you going to do what's asked of you, or stick with your vision despite constant complaints? Because honestly, these "source of power ideas" you have don't always translate well to fun gameplay.

Lorewise, Daedra aren't just beasts, they're energy that can be used as tools. You can take the "creatia" as its called and make a weapon or whatever out of it. That needs to better translate to gameplay mechanics. If I don't want to have a giant flappy bird hurting my eyes, but I like the purple joy of the class otherwise, I want that accommodated.

What do we mean by “power fantasy”?

Power fantasy takes the source of the power a step further and influences how a character receives and is then able to use it (e.g., area of effect, damage over time, direct damage, etc.). By taking their source of power and putting it into a delivery mechanism, we aim to create the sensation of what it would feel like to be that class.

Ok, how? How will each class feel different? Revisiting the sorcerer. Are you guys working towards a place where I can play a storm mage and not care at all about Daedric summoning?

Again, give us a breakdown for how each class will feel. Tell me what each class's schtick will be. Arcanists have one - crux. Necro's have one - corpses. What about the others? Will Wardens have like an active lore they're pulling from? Like a Tale? Will DKs have a flame meter they have to keep up? How will those class mechanics coexist with others?

Different power sources shape distinct playstyles. For example, Nightblades rely on cunning and shadow to stay elusive in battle, striking while the moment is right, while Templars draw on divine energy for more zealous and direct combat.

These differences help set ESO's classes apart from one another in terms of their identity. It’s why some classes have specific power delivery mechanisms that others do not, thus contributing to a more distinct playstyle and establishing a stronger class identity mix.

Overall, the language used here is too vague and too technical. Delivery mechanisms - like what are you talking about? I'm assuming that means specific mechanics like Crux or something.

Again, in gameplay terms, what does this all mean? This is why I've discouraged this whole "guiding principles" flavored framework you guys use. It doesn't tell me anything concrete. Will nightblades rely on evasion? Will Sorcerers get Oblivion resistance? Concrete stuff.

My big concern is this level of language doesn't translate well to status updates and roadmaps. I'll give you guys this - this article was the closest you've ever come to an actual deep dive. But it' still too high-level for me to walk away feeling confident in the direction.

Let's take your goals:

For this refresh of ESO’s classes, our primary goals that support the long-term vision we laid out are:

• Strengthen the unique identities of each class, making them feel fun and rewarding, as well as thematically unique and engaging to play.
• Improve the balance between pure classing and subclassing, so both paths have their place in the game.
• Make each class's skill lines more varied and distinct for what they offer a role, so that each skill line holds something valuable, regardless of what you play.
• Use both in-game data and player feedback to help inform our decisions, ensuring changes reflect player experiences and preferences.
• Address power outliers in abilities and skill lines, and look at balance concerns as we progress through each of the classes, prioritizing mathematical and functional changes before visual and audio updates.

As new work comes in and this endeavor, I would expect to line items below each of these goals for that work. So, if you're overhauling DK, tell me the X number of things you're doing and how long that will take.

Malyore wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

Can we talk for a second about "holistic approach". I'm unsure what's meant by that, I'm a little older, maybe I'm not getting the lingo, but what I read is this. "We're getting nowhere using science, so we're going for Karen at the herb store. She says these crystals work wonders.

@twisttop138
"Holistic" is not lingo for what you're stereotyping, rather it simply means looking at something as a whole rather than focusing on limited aspects. It is in fact used in scientific communities such as anthropology and psychology, to name a few.

Put very simply, a holistic approach looks at the entire puzzle, whereas more focused approaches look at just a piece of the puzzle.

Yeah I know, I was making a joke. We were ripping this article in discord and I thought it was a funny thing to add. I do appreciate your explanation though. It's a good way to look at it.

I'm pretty interested in this to be quite honest. I just hope it turns out well.

Doing one class at a time a bit disappointing, but only due to the time it would take to get to classes that need work. It's honestly surprising that DK is the first pick over something like warden or NB. Anyways, it's better to focus on one class at a time imo. It makes sure enough attention is put into something instead of trying to do everything at once to the point where its unfinished and unbalanced. Everybody migrating to pure DK if it suddenly becomes meta is only a short term issue, and is really nothing new to what we've been experiencing for the the past few years where everyone migrates to 1 class/skill setup because it's the easiest/strongest to play. As the other classes get worked on, more options will start opening up. It's a small price to pay IF it means that identity and balance starts to come back.

My biggest concerns though are how they would be reworked. IMO, I prefer how the base classes have everything spread out rather than conforming them to a Damage/Tank/Heal setup like the DLC classes. It forces you to use your class skills to make you feel like that class instead of only using 1 skill line of your class and filling the rest up with weapon and guild skills. It's less of an issue in PvP, but it's very much a problem in PvE. It also should make subclassing easier to balance so you don't just pick 3 damage skill lines and call it a day. I also hope that animation and sound design isn't too severe. I'm sorry, but new jabs and flurry are terrible looking compared to the old animation, and I wouldn't want a similar issue to happen with other beloved skills. For sound, Arcanist abilities do sound great, but also so do DK abilities. I hope there won't be any unnecessary audio changes to unique sounding skills. More generic sounding skills should be the ones changed, such as most of nightblades outside assassination.

ceruulean wrote: »

Emeratis wrote: »

Not just going into thematic concerns, but there is also logistics one. Nightblade has been my favorite class for 11 years and it's not even close. While the power fantasy of nightblade may sound nice on paper, in pve, much of it is not currently possible. When you're doing dungeon and trial hardmodes and trifectas, most bosses are immune to crowd control and stealth doesn't really matter. In prior years, nigthblade has had issue with having great burst when most pve group content wants reliable/sustained dps. Logistically, how does one answer that fantasy? Allow bosses to be crowd controlled again? Redo a decade of pve content to make stealth, crowd control, and mobility less niche and more rewarding? Part of the criticism of subclassing I and many others said was that it doesn't feel rewarding or fun at higher levels of play, how does that get answered where the class identity slide also has similar problems for certain classes and their listed power fantasy, especially for those who mostly or only play one class in group related stuff.

I mean, they could make a trial where there is a room or barrier that's only crossible if you cloak through. Then the player has to do a mechanic to unlock the rest of the room for their party.

Your suggestion, while well intentioned, does not solve the problem we're trying to express (because I've seen other nightblades expressing similar concerns to mine).The first problem that one trial out of the hundreds of old and new future dungeons and trials does not make a class feel desirable or useful. The second is this puts the power fantasy of nightblade as a niche gimmick compared to other classes getting their power fantasy even in that own theoretical trial fullfilled much more naturally. The third is it directly contributes to the frustration at higher levels of play of feeling limited or forced into certain things versus given the choice to play what we love, which has been an ongoing problem for a long time as I and a few others have mentioned a few times in feedback threads.

I don't think the other classes' power fantasies are fully accurate either from talking to friends who are mains or my own experience on those classes (though I admit I'm more casual on some of the classes than others so I'm going to let others speak on that), I just think that nightblade was the easiest to speak on to point out these concerns because it also echoes problems that nightblades have had in pve in prior patches.

I also don't think there are simple solutions to some of the class adjustments needed going forward, but from the article it seems they are already aware of that. I just really want to see all classes get something that feels enjoyable and rewarding at all levels and types of play (pve, pvp, dungeons and trials, overland, etc).

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official discussion thread for, "Developer Deep Dive—ESO's Class Identity Refresh"

"Read a deep dive letter from ZeniMax Online Studio’s Combat Team as they share their core philosophies, goals, and planning surrounding the future of ESO’s classes."

I'm not understanding this at all. ZOS rolls out subclassing as a main feature and selling point, now the benefits of subclassing are going to be taken away?

Besides that, ESO doesn't have classes anymore. We have skill lines.

Subclassing was never a main feature or selling point of any piece of content, unlike something like scribing or arcanist. It was a free feature tacked onto the U46 patch, and why it was insane to push it out it in the state that it was in instead of delaying it.

ESO not having classes anymore was directly caused by that wild decision and is something that needs to be reverted, something that I hope this correctly accomplishes.

First thing I'd like to say is "Good."

Second is "Thank you."

Third is "Please don't consider foisting the vengeance skills on us. If you thought the outcry against subclassing was bad, wait till the vengeance skills get more eyes on them."

Now that we have that out of the way, any chance the dev team is looking for ideas/suggestions on class skills? I have mained a Dragon Knight since the imperial city came out. I've run him through every form of content and have played him in every role. And yes, I was occasionally running a DK healer in vet trials before subclassing came out.

I love the tanking skills. Those are great to use, and great fun. Please don't change them.

Healing skills are workable - much more effective than people give them credit for. They are ok.

The DPS skills... those are fun in solo play or pvp, but maybe not so great in trials.

...

The issue with DK skills in trials isn't a matter of buffing damage, the problem is combining a dot class with only melee skills.

Running from one target to the next trying to dot everything up in a trial is just not as efficient as spraying a green beam, or spraying white beam, or channeling a lightning beam, or just spinning to win. Trials DKs were giving themselves carpal tunnel just to get a third of the damage output of arcanists, nbs, and sorcs before subclassing turned everyone into a part-time beamer.

Even now, you still see guilds and groupfinder pugs with the irritating "No DK dds!" line in their signups.

What I would love to see, is a suite of ranged DK dot skills, or at least ranged morph options. That would be a better way to balance trial dps than just buffing the skills - because just buffing the numbers will generate headaches with the pvp crowd who already hate fighting Dks as it is.

Plus, I personally just like ranged dot builds, and ESO doesn't really have one that works atm.

...

I remember back in the Burning Crusade, I had a fire warlock that would set ranged targets on fire with immolate, cast fear on them, and then he shot really big fireballs at them while they ran around on fire.

The visual spectacle was awesome, and many lols were had.

Please oh please give us some ranged fire dots and make the targets have visual flame effects while they burn!!!

** Concerned **

One of the things that differentiates this game from other games is that you can complete end came content (okay, maybe not veteran trials) with any class makeup you want (even though the system seems to want to fill the tank / healer / DPS roles). You can really complete most tasks with all DPS or all heals if you have the patience. Most other games make this impossible, which is unfortunate. I hope this class rework does not result in ESO being like all other games and making content undoable without the assumed requirement of x tanks and x heals etc.

My experience is that most tanks end up being jerks because they are in short supply and they get an ego and think they are the lord of the group (okay, they aren't all jerks... just the majority of them). This results in everybody else waiting in endless queues for the purpose of queuing up with a jerk. Sorry... I'm not shy about sharing my opinion on this.

If this is the direction the game is heading, I'd be very disappointed. Thankfully, the game has other systems that make it fun like crafting, trading, exploring, etc. I suppose I'd survive and stick around. However, I'll get pissed off every time the current in game event requires you to queue up for dungeon or trial content....

I appreciate the communication and will wait to see how it plays out/shows up on PTS. That said, I do have some concerns.

1. Animation rework for skills. The updated jabs is still a contentious update and I still want my old jabs back. I'm not sure I love the idea of reworking classic skill visuals. I'm also concerned about skills that people have paid real money for to get new styles suddenly not becoming usable.
2. As others have mentioned, I am concerned about the timing, particularly since some changes remain unfinished for much longer than should be, or never get fixed.
3. Most importantly, I'm hoping that, instead of having a clear "DPS", "Tank", "Heal" line, like the newer classes have, lines are approached and built around theme and then the skills/morphs themselves are utilized to allow more build diversity. Right now, if you want to subclass, you take the line that matches your role, rather than what you want to build thematically. DK has fire, dragon, and earth - now imagine each of these having a combo of skills that work for any role. Imagine having some morphs inside Green Balance that damage instead of heal: thorns with a bleed for example. Combine Earthen Heart and Green Balance and get a more nature-themed type druid that is still a damage dealer. I know they mentioned that not every build will be optimal but if I'm going to subclass, I'd like to be able to do it by theme instead of role and still remain viable.

I was a player who gave scathing feedback regarding how the DK has changed over the years.

My biggest critique is how much has been stolen from them.

Attrition is a PvP dead end when other classes get easy escape mechanicsms and purges. Resource management of the DK has been nerfed time and time again and it confuses me why other classes get cheesy abilities that help them, but DK get's such beneficial things stolen away. Ult gen on crits was stolen and impacts DKs, Stamina regen while blocking was stolen and impacts this attrition based character, wings was stolen, impactful dots were stolen, eruption cheese was stolen, improved chains was handed out to everyone, fiery breath debuff was made less effective for tanks to use, and the only things left are staggering which sucks to due to the channel and the novelty of dragon leap. For crying out loud, corrosive and then magma shell of all things was stolen. Magma shell was stolen and in the mean time people are spamming the templar heal in battlegrounds nearly on cooldown. Was there genuninely an issue with people actually have fun in the archive with magma shell? Just another skill that was stolen so that other ways of playing could be advanced.

Why don't DKs get something cool like a non-ultimate leap/stomp ability. I know that Rich has played Diablo barbarians. Come on. And what gives about them not having a purge? Does anyone actually give a crap if bad classes have drawbacks when good classes practically don't have drawbacks? Haven't you ever heard of something being cleansed in fire? Isn't that flavorful? Nothing consistently feels cool on DK. Trust me, boring old me has played DK only since I started playing 11 years ago.

I realize that the note in the article is about giving a resource generation aspect to a skill, but in reality DKs are the only class that tie a huge portion of their resource generation to using their ultimate and that causes gameplay issues that other classes don't have to deal with.

At least take the unique thing that DKs still do, stagger, and get rid of the awful channel. Other classes don't have to deal with their unique tools leading to them getting killed for just wanting to use the skill in a normal way.

(The Dragonknight class refresh is underway

Below we’ll cover some of the larger adjustments broken out as the refinements versus reconfigurations we mentioned above to give some insight into the design process and how it fits into our vision.

Refinement

Dragonknights are attrition warriors. There will be many adjustments that help reforge this experience, including unique damage over time parameters like shorter durations, higher damage per tick, and ramping effects that let them build their power over the course of a fight. Another area this is improved is with the new Avalanche passive in Earthen Heart, which allows you to slowly build up momentum with a stacking damage bonus while in combat that can be lost if you fail to keep up the pressure.)


You do understand the point of a damage over time is it doesn't need to be reapplied constantly, allowing you to use other abilities in the meantime? shorter duration's run counter to that.