seriously, please shut down this post (SOLVED)
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Orbital78✭✭✭✭✭
✭RealLoveBVB wrote: »RealLoveBVB wrote: »RealLoveBVB wrote: »You should rethink your "eat it or die"- mentality.
[snip]
[snip]
[snip]
[snip]
Don't make assumptions, heavy attack builds weave just like any other "meta" build just slower. I was adapting using clunky LA weaving builds previously as well, they just felt unnatural to me and didn't flow for me. Arcanist kind of bridged the two, and I DO want to use two bars with better empower uptime sourcing is the main issue. Subclassing will fix all this IMO, I look forward to more people being able to get into vet content and hold their weight. Entry trials are already real accessible currently. The ceiling is going to rise, but the top 1% players are already skipping mechs in vet hardmode so it is kind of moot. I am more in the middle ground with access to older hardmodes and partials on the newer stuff.
The only reason I could think of people not wanting this is because of over nerfing base classes, or people gatekeeping and wanting to keep their carry discords funded.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 27, 2025 1:26PM0 -
Daoin✭✭✭✭RealLoveBVB wrote: »You should rethink your "eat it or die"- mentality.
[snip]
But you can play a 2 bar heavy attack build already. Just need to cast any mages guild ability every so often for Empower.
It will actually do better damage than the typical Oaken build from what I've seen.
Yes I know this, but 10 seconds uptime is pretty horrible for me. Hence why I had hoped scribing would have had 20+ seconds. But with subclassing that will fix everything.
It will not "fix everything" because your dps build does not exist in vacuum. Therefore, the 130k that HA builds are pushing on PTS will just be the new 90k and you won't suddenly be OP.
ZOS is balancing content around the current dps ceiling. Therefore, if the ceiling goes up drastically, the new content will be less accessible for those who choose to ignore the new system or pick more niche combinations. This is what we are arguing against. ESO already has a huge dps gap between optimal and less optimal builds, there is no good reason to make this gap even wider.
An alternative would be them nerfing everything to the point that every skill line is the same thing with different visuals, but as you can imagine, that's also not great.
anything is better than running around jesus beaming everything on an arcanist class (previously known arcanist class) or turning invisible while playing arc. proper stealing those classes identities that
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 27, 2025 1:22PM1 -
Daoin✭✭✭✭even in a merciful world they would have released this as an entirely seperate class (the subclass or something and gave it a better name) would this have been taken lightly ? no. so why bother with it all over the board then ? personally i think selling a class that had access to everthing, i mean all the other poor classes skills would have been laughed at. what we need is an elite server where things like this can wash and regular casual server where it cant. thought of a good and fitting name...'The Handyman' and the server could be called DS mega server. Dwarven ServerEdited by Daoin on April 27, 2025 1:22PM1
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Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Exactly. This is one of the things that gets me the most. People see complaints as "being negative" or "hating the game". I am a trained designer by trade. My career revolves around finding solutions to problems. I am not critiqing to be negative, I am critiqing because I see a problem (that exists now, or will be a problem in the future) and therefore I voice my objection.sans-culottes wrote: »licenturion wrote: »sans-culottes wrote: »To say “you can’t change the tracks” forgets that without riders’ investment, there would be no train at all.
There would be no train at all if you think that everybody thinks and acts exactly the same as you.
Sure you can take the car if you like, but it will not prevent new other people to hop on the train because they like the new destination.
Anyway there i nothing new I can add this this thread from here on. The only point I was trying to make originally in this thread was that complaining for an exciting feature to cancelled forever right before release is pointless and people are better off with actual testing and reporting problems instead of emotional essays that they and their whole family will quit forever if ZOS doesn't fill in their demands.
Just like AWA, U35 and all the other things, this thing has been announced and worked on for more than a year. This will launch next month and nothing will change that. I, and many others, are very excited for it so in the end this is a win for people as well. Every coin has two sides. Some hate it, other will love it. Peace out.
It is strange to see you frame disagreement as selfishness but excitement as universal.
Some players raise concerns because they care enough to engage the development of the game as a shared project, not as a one-way delivery service.
ZOS askes for feedback, this is well documented. It would be a disservice to myself, the commuity and to ZOS to keep silent.
Sadly it appears that some in the community would rather ignore a paying customers feedback.
"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes8 -
ZOS_IcymodGreetings,
We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.
The Elder Scrolls Online Team1 -
said no one ever✭✭✭✭fyi from the post about scribing
Scribing is coming to the base game, free for all players as a claim in the Crown Store, in mid-July with an associated Golden Pursuit! You will see Scribing in the Crown Store on the PTS on Monday as part of this testing.1 -
Koshka✭✭✭✭✭RealLoveBVB wrote: »RealLoveBVB wrote: »RealLoveBVB wrote: »You should rethink your "eat it or die"- mentality.
[snip]
[snip]
[snip]
[snip]
Don't make assumptions, heavy attack builds weave just like any other "meta" build just slower. I was adapting using clunky LA weaving builds previously as well, they just felt unnatural to me and didn't flow for me. Arcanist kind of bridged the two, and I DO want to use two bars with better empower uptime sourcing is the main issue. Subclassing will fix all this IMO, I look forward to more people being able to get into vet content and hold their weight. Entry trials are already real accessible currently. The ceiling is going to rise, but the top 1% players are already skipping mechs in vet hardmode so it is kind of moot. I am more in the middle ground with access to older hardmodes and partials on the newer stuff.
The only reason I could think of people not wanting this is because of over nerfing base classes, or people gatekeeping and wanting to keep their carry discords funded.
[edited to remove quote]
Well, maybe subclassing will allow you to cast Empower every 30 seconds instead of every 10. But look at the big picture.
People are not really "skipping mechs in vet hardmode". Not in the hardmodes that are actually challenging. With more damage, you get fewer mechanic phases, you can burn adds together with the boss etc, depending on the encounter. But you absolutely cannot just run in and dps everything to death with overwhelming damage without worrying about mechanics. If that was the case, everyone would have old trifecta titles like TTT or GS because players now have much more power than in the old days.
The reason why it's so hard to transition between vet and normal content is because the gap between players is too wide, and harder content is balanced around high dps. Increasing this power gap would only make it more challenging for an average player because pure classes and weird rp class combos will perform much worse than optimized setups. It is already happening, but not to such an absurd degree.
And even if you could theoretically get enough damage to do the existing hardmode, then what? New hardmodes will be balanced around new level of power.
In short, the problem is not that the power level is increasing. This has always been the case (though not so drastically). The issue is that in increases very unevenly.Edited by Koshka on April 27, 2025 5:12PM1 -
MorallyBipolar✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
Exactly. This is one of the things that gets me the most. People see complaints as "being negative" or "hating the game". I am a trained designer by trade. My career revolves around finding solutions to problems. I am not critiqing to be negative, I am critiqing because I see a problem (that exists now, or will be a problem in the future) and therefore I voice my objection.sans-culottes wrote: »licenturion wrote: »sans-culottes wrote: »To say “you can’t change the tracks” forgets that without riders’ investment, there would be no train at all.
There would be no train at all if you think that everybody thinks and acts exactly the same as you.
Sure you can take the car if you like, but it will not prevent new other people to hop on the train because they like the new destination.
Anyway there i nothing new I can add this this thread from here on. The only point I was trying to make originally in this thread was that complaining for an exciting feature to cancelled forever right before release is pointless and people are better off with actual testing and reporting problems instead of emotional essays that they and their whole family will quit forever if ZOS doesn't fill in their demands.
Just like AWA, U35 and all the other things, this thing has been announced and worked on for more than a year. This will launch next month and nothing will change that. I, and many others, are very excited for it so in the end this is a win for people as well. Every coin has two sides. Some hate it, other will love it. Peace out.
It is strange to see you frame disagreement as selfishness but excitement as universal.
Some players raise concerns because they care enough to engage the development of the game as a shared project, not as a one-way delivery service.
ZOS askes for feedback, this is well documented. It would be a disservice to myself, the commuity and to ZOS to keep silent.
Sadly it appears that some in the community would rather ignore a paying customers feedback.
I've become convinced that ZOS is way out of touch with the player base. Instead of fixing the game they already have they are going about 5 different directions at once with ESO. Things are getting weird now.11 -
Wereswan✭✭✭✭I think the biggest reason for the split opinions on subclassing is a difference of opinions on how this is going to ultimately play out. Some people are optimistic and foresee a golden era of ESO with people creating their own unique build that suits their playstyle and character and that is still somehow viable. Others... see something different. I'm in the camp that sees something different. Only time will tell.
ESO classes are already very complex for a lot of players. I won't even say new players. Just players in general. Often people who played this game for a few years are still wrapping their head around how their main class actually works, how to get the most out of it. And then if they do, something very fundamental changes in a patch. Some players (a lot, actually) have no interest in "becoming an elite min/maxer," or as others might see it, just learning their class. Adding this huge new layer of complexity... no, it is not good for casuals.
We've already got a big rework of Sorceror and Necromancer in progress, with folks currently floating ideas on how to bring the other launch classes in line with the triad (DPS, healer, tank/utility) arrangement for skill lines, so lots of things will probably work differently in U46.Therefore we are left with this “soup” of a system - which I suspect will cause more problems than it will solve
Mainly quoting because "soup" is what I called it a few weeks ago, and I want it to be a thing :-) I don't mean to focus on word choice but if two of three class lines can be replaced that isn't sub-classing, it is something else. To me it is just refrigerator soup cause you toss everything into one pot. I get some people will like that, and it likely will be fun for a while but there have been problems with balance since I started playing years ago. And it removes the idea of class identity (which they have been kinda doing for some time) which makes you wonder why even have classes except the code gut would be more extensive, I would think.
I would say most of these problems over time are caused by certain gear matched with certain classes and their passives. Just it is just a math thing that take all the gear combos and add a x3000 multiplier and something will be a problem. And it may take time for someone to find that broken combo because there are so many.
Yes, we have choices, but the game was built a certain way. There are many discussions in several areas on what ways to play are valid. For example, I don't like how PvP has gone. But my options are to get destroyed, not play in PvP, or adapt accordingly. There are builds that are fine in some content and stink in others.
I remember a person who wanted advice on builds and they didn't want to take it because they didn't want to be like everyone else. But the problem with that was that my bear pet could out DPS them. This is the extreme, of course, but saying "you can do what you want" only applies to solo play. After that you need a build that matches the goals. A build that is fine for a normal trial may not work for a trifecta run.
It is a soup because it’s now a blend,There’s certainly a vocal amount of people who don’t like anything but a pure class system
Personally i would prefer that - but it involves balancing the game, which the team have conclusively proved time and again they can’t do
Therefore we are left with this “soup” of a system - which I suspect will cause more problems than it will solve
That all said - I’m excited to try it and I’ll have fun experimenting - so I’m not going to throw away 10
Or so years of game time because of this
No, there's a vocal amount of people who would've been just fine with a system where people could mix-and-match skill lines and end up just as good as the existing seven classes. What we're getting instead is a system where players can do that and end up flat-out better than the classes those skill lines come from—and because they end up better, they'll still be in the same relatively superior position regardless of what eventual nerfs get applied. And as evinced by responses in this very thread, when we raise objections we get told "adapt or die" or "if you don't like it, leave," while also being told we're over-reacting to nothing and it'll be fine.licenturion wrote: »the origial question and a couple of replies confirm there is no specualation here on this topic, this is what is coming and friends and acquaintances are the ones already going or gone. how it actually performs once its out is not a question here. for me personally this is the fastest i have ever seen anyone actually truly quit playing even before the end of PTS, i swear i tried to water it all down but i cant
Sorry but if people already bail out before such a big system is out without even trying it in final form (or with a few early hotfixes), they are not really fans of the game at all.
It’s like walking out of a restaurant because you saw the ingredients being prepped and assumed you wouldn’t like the dish — without even tasting the final meal. You don’t know how it’s seasoned, how it’s presented, or how all the elements come together. Real fans at least stay to try the finished plate before deciding it’s not for them.
Did you know some of us have a genetic mutation that makes cilantro taste awful? Perhaps not the greatest analogy.
Well you say no - I say yes. . What has Happened here has split the fanbase. Not everyone is happy. Not everyone is unhappy - that’s the point
Those of us who are unhappy about what's coming are aware that some people are hyped for this change. We can see that. It's not a mystery to us.
We're frustrated that our concerns are being summarily dismissed, belittled, or flat-out ignored—especially when some of those concerns are already being borne out by PTS testing.
This must be your first day here if you think your concerns will be in anyway acted upon
Sorry to break it to you.. but they won’t be
Yes, that's exactly the attitude I was talking about. Did you think I meant ZOS? I'm talking about the players who don't want to hear any criticism.2 -
amiiegee✭✭✭✭licenturion wrote: »It is wild to me how some people are in full drama mode over an update with an OPTIONAL system that is currently in testing and only had the chance to receive 1 small hotfix on the beta server..
Respectfully, what you dont seem to understand, its NOT OPTIONAL because if you dont use subclassing you will have a giant disadvantage.
Maybe for roleplayers and solos its optional but for all serious endgame content it wont be and it completely kills class identity and it kills the balance.7 -
Dixa✭✭✭✭as someone who has been playing these games since before they had graphics - you aren't meant to play only one.
even back in the early 90's i played 2 to 3 different MUD's.
there is no mmorpg with the content and update schedule to be your only game once you've seen most of what there is to see. it's ok to move on and come back. you are in fact doing yourself a disservice by only playing one mmorpg obsessively.2 -
LukosCreyden✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I wish the combat would stay static in this game for ever and ever! /sStruggling to find a new class to call home.Please send help.0 -
LukosCreyden✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭licenturion wrote: »It is wild to me how some people are in full drama mode over an update with an OPTIONAL system that is currently in testing and only had the chance to receive 1 small hotfix on the beta server..
Respectfully, what you dont seem to understand, its NOT OPTIONAL because if you dont use subclassing you will have a giant disadvantage.
Maybe for roleplayers and solos its optional but for all serious endgame content it wont be and it completely kills class identity and it kills the balance.
Please explain to me what this "class identity" is? I see people cite it as an argument a lot and honestly, I don't get it. Is it playstyle? Because all the classes have VERY similar playstyles, just a couple of the most minor differences. Is it aesthetics, aka skill colour? If so, I would not see how this is an issue; everyone can turn their character into a rainbow already with skill styles, varied skill lines and scribing.Struggling to find a new class to call home.Please send help.1 -
allochthons✭✭✭✭✭I'm excited for sub/multi-classing. More options is great!
And I'm someone who has at least 2 of each class*, because prior to hybridization, I wanted a mag and stam of each class. So I paid for the new classes (or the chapters/DLCs they came with) and I've bought skill lines, sky shards for skill points, and have spent thousands of hours leveling, getting mage's books, etc.
What I AM extremely annoyed about is that we'll have to level the sub-class skills. I've leveled each of these skill lines multiple times, why do I have to do it AGAIN?
I don't get the drama, though. I paid, because I love the game. I paid for scribing, I'm thrilled it's coming to base game. I pay for ESO+, I'm thrilled the various dungeon packs were given away as daily rewards this year. I paid my student loans. I'm thrilled some people got them forgiven, and they didn't have to go through the years of eating ramen and peanut butter that I did. Why be bitter about it? If sub/multi-classing raises the floor even more, that's great. Harder content for more people is only a good thing, AFAICT.
(*Now the mag version also has a healer build, and the stam version has a tank build, for all of the classes).
She/They
PS5/NA (CP2800+)1 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LukosCreyden wrote: »Please explain to me what this "class identity" is? I see people cite it as an argument a lot and honestly, I don't get it. Is it playstyle? Because all the classes have VERY similar playstyles, just a couple of the most minor differences. Is it aesthetics, aka skill colour? If so, I would not see how this is an issue; everyone can turn their character into a rainbow already with skill styles, varied skill lines and scribing.
For me, aesthetics have nothing to do with it.
Class is the main identifying feature of my character. I see it as similar to a real life career. I went to school to learn my chosen profession and I identify with that. I feel the same way about my characters and their chosen identities.
Currently the class does affect how the character is played because each class has a set of skills unique to them. With subclassing this will no longer be the case. Classes will lose their uniqueness and become a jumble of skills from this class and that class and in my opinion that destroys the sense of identity each class once had.PCNA7 -
Koshka✭✭✭✭✭LukosCreyden wrote: »licenturion wrote: »It is wild to me how some people are in full drama mode over an update with an OPTIONAL system that is currently in testing and only had the chance to receive 1 small hotfix on the beta server..
Respectfully, what you dont seem to understand, its NOT OPTIONAL because if you dont use subclassing you will have a giant disadvantage.
Maybe for roleplayers and solos its optional but for all serious endgame content it wont be and it completely kills class identity and it kills the balance.
Please explain to me what this "class identity" is? I see people cite it as an argument a lot and honestly, I don't get it. Is it playstyle? Because all the classes have VERY similar playstyles, just a couple of the most minor differences. Is it aesthetics, aka skill colour? If so, I would not see how this is an issue; everyone can turn their character into a rainbow already with skill styles, varied skill lines and scribing.
It's the fact that they are basically reducing the number of options again. When they pushed hybridization, people who defended that decision also claimed that it will add more variety, but in reality we ended up with 1 build per class instead of 2 (mage and stamina warrior). Even casual 1 bar builds are prioritizing medium armor now. If you wanna play a pure mage with staves, you are out of luck, unless you are a heavy attack enjoyer, and light armor is very obviously a weaker choice for pure dps.
This subclassing thing homogenizes everything even further. A few weeks after release people will figure out optimal combinations for every purpose and people who do not want to play that will be at a serious disadvantage.
And no, not everyone enjoys doing everything at once on the same character. Most popular rpg franchises have classes/skill choices, and even in Skyrim many people play themed characters (a mage, a sneak archer, etc). Using everything at once does not make a lot of sense considering how visually distinctive class skill lines are, and a bunch of skill from random classes looks and plays like a mess. It does add some meme value ("lol look at my 10 pet zoo") and would allow someone to get a 30 seconds buff instead of a 10s one, but imo it's not worth ruining the game's balance and the "pure" class gameplay.Edited by Koshka on April 27, 2025 7:59PM6 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LukosCreyden wrote: »licenturion wrote: »It is wild to me how some people are in full drama mode over an update with an OPTIONAL system that is currently in testing and only had the chance to receive 1 small hotfix on the beta server..
Respectfully, what you dont seem to understand, its NOT OPTIONAL because if you dont use subclassing you will have a giant disadvantage.
Maybe for roleplayers and solos its optional but for all serious endgame content it wont be and it completely kills class identity and it kills the balance.
Please explain to me what this "class identity" is? I see people cite it as an argument a lot and honestly, I don't get it. Is it playstyle? Because all the classes have VERY similar playstyles, just a couple of the most minor differences. Is it aesthetics, aka skill colour? If so, I would not see how this is an issue; everyone can turn their character into a rainbow already with skill styles, varied skill lines and scribing.
Dungeons and Dragons or D&D or Advanced Dungeons and Dragons or AD&D pretty much made role playing games mainstream back in the 70's (mainstream for the genre).
Many games throughout the 1980's had roles or "classes" to play.
MMORPG's in the late 90's came around and had "classes".
WOW made MMORPG's popular and you choose to play a "class".
A "Class" is basically your profession, as in "I am an an axe wielding, fur leather armor wearing, grunting Barbarian". "I am a fire slinging, portal conjuring Mage/Wizard", "I am a Holy priest who heals the sick and wounded".
A class is the charaters identity, their role. The role they play in the setting. Its like a job in the real world, and we all have a chosen profesion. You don't see many, if any doctors who are also master craftesmen who are also master ship builders who are also master mechanics who are also fire dancing ballerina.
So in a video game, its no different. A "class" is chosen as the "profession" you want to play in the game. The reason classes are premade vs you playing whatever you want is becasue in an mmorpg where you are playing with other people, it is important for those people to understand your role in the setting.
In single player games, classes are complely unnecessary. You can get away with a blank slate that you make yourself, but in an MMORPG where the combat is based on the longstanding trinity of the Tank, Healer, and Damage Dealer (DPS), the players surrounding you, whom you most likely do not know, whom you most likely just met for the first time, need to be able to easily communicate to you what their "job", "profession" or "class role" is, or rather what they will be doing in a nonverbal way.
When you see a class that is a big shield using, sword/mace/hatchet type character, you know they are going to hold the monsters aggression, or aggro, we call these tanks. You also know the long skirt wearing player who is called a "priest" is going to be keeping the tank alive. We call these healers. The rest of the party know they are going to do damage, either as a stealth fighter, an animal tamer or a fire shooting mage.
Classes simply allow YOU to know what the player will be doing in the dungeon. The IDENTITY allows for nonverbal communication.
This is why they exist in games. Peoples reasons for choosing them are all over the place, but the common denominator is that most RPG players like to choose and play a class to fill a role.
So, for us, its INSANELY important. I mean LITERALLY groundbreaking important that we are able to fill our class role.
I bought ESO years and years ago to play a class. Sub-classing waters that down to the point of nonexistence. You can not tell a Sorc, Warden, Templar from a Templar, Sorc, Warden, from a Warden, Sorc Templaer. I just listed three "classes" there that in that combination are now undefinable.
It ruins the immersion, it strips away the identity and its most certainly not what most of us who are against this had in mind when we started to invest into Zenimax and ESO for a long term commitment game (which is what most people do with MMORPGS).
Edited by Pixiepumpkin on April 27, 2025 8:24PM"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes8 -
Orbital78✭✭✭✭✭
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There is a new green slot to increase skill line exp gain to help.allochthons wrote: »I'm excited for sub/multi-classing. More options is great!
And I'm someone who has at least 2 of each class*, because prior to hybridization, I wanted a mag and stam of each class. So I paid for the new classes (or the chapters/DLCs they came with) and I've bought skill lines, sky shards for skill points, and have spent thousands of hours leveling, getting mage's books, etc.
What I AM extremely annoyed about is that we'll have to level the sub-class skills. I've leveled each of these skill lines multiple times, why do I have to do it AGAIN?
I don't get the drama, though. I paid, because I love the game. I paid for scribing, I'm thrilled it's coming to base game. I pay for ESO+, I'm thrilled the various dungeon packs were given away as daily rewards this year. I paid my student loans. I'm thrilled some people got them forgiven, and they didn't have to go through the years of eating ramen and peanut butter that I did. Why be bitter about it? If sub/multi-classing raises the floor even more, that's great. Harder content for more people is only a good thing, AFAICT.
(*Now the mag version also has a healer build, and the stam version has a tank build, for all of the classes).
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Juju_beans✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »LukosCreyden wrote: »licenturion wrote: »It is wild to me how some people are in full drama mode over an update with an OPTIONAL system that is currently in testing and only had the chance to receive 1 small hotfix on the beta server..
Respectfully, what you dont seem to understand, its NOT OPTIONAL because if you dont use subclassing you will have a giant disadvantage.
Maybe for roleplayers and solos its optional but for all serious endgame content it wont be and it completely kills class identity and it kills the balance.
Please explain to me what this "class identity" is? I see people cite it as an argument a lot and honestly, I don't get it. Is it playstyle? Because all the classes have VERY similar playstyles, just a couple of the most minor differences. Is it aesthetics, aka skill colour? If so, I would not see how this is an issue; everyone can turn their character into a rainbow already with skill styles, varied skill lines and scribing.
Dungeons and Dragons or D&D or Advanced Dungeons and Dragons or AD&D pretty much made role playing games mainstream back in the 70's (mainstream for the genre).
Many games throughout the 1980's had roles or "classes" to play.
MMORPG's in the late 90's came around and had "classes".
WOW made MMORPG's popular and you choose to play a "class".
To add to your post...the grouping of certain classes..heal, DPS, tank is called the "Holy Trinity".
And there were classes to fill those roles. Some classes were pure and others were hybrids with weaker set of skills.
And it goes back to the old D&D days.
This subclassing, I guess, is a new alternative to the Holy Trinity of MMO's.
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Daoin✭✭✭✭i'm not sure this was a good answer to the fact there was no way to get rid of fake tanks and fake healers and 4 dd's runs but atleast the new 'holy quadruple subclass' runs are a bit more doable for them with less pressure on a brighter note. since each character could really be a mix of healer damage and tank all in one, i think. whatever it is does not remind me of anything holy, eso wise. in the end it dont matter the post did its job and sub is ending at next cycle just next to start trimming down the hours of play to point i only need to log in when i have comitted to something.all solved. and left me feeling good about hours already spent playing eso in the pastEdited by Daoin on April 27, 2025 10:26PM1
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cmetzger93✭✭✭✭✭I play this game to have fun. Subclassing sounds like a blast for someone like me. Y'all seem very stressed and that isnt good for your mental health about a video game4 -
Ragnarok0130✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This argument works both ways, if you do not like build diversity, there are other games like World of Warcraft, who has plenty of confined and structured classes and specs.In fact, you can only play 1 specific spec of a class at any given time. Doesn't get more class-centric than that. Also, where was it announced that classes are completely going away?
ESO has always been about player agency and we, the players, deciding how we play the game. Build diversity and how we choose to build our characters is just a part of that agency. Want to be a mage and use heavy armor and a bow? Go for it. Want to be a knight in light armor who casts fire spells with a staff? Go for it. etc. etc.
Adding the ability to bring in new skill lines only adds to the diversity and player agency which I greatly welcome.
No it doesn't work both ways. We bought a game after playing in two beta tests that had classes as its base. ESO has had limited player agency over the past 11 years due to the fact that it's an MMO and not complete player agency like one finds in a single player TES game because balance is supremely important in an MMO because you're not the only one affected in the game. If you disagree about balance being important look up old youtube vids about Cyrodiil cheaters flying and see how much "fun" the victims had in such an unbalanced situation. That may sound like a strawman argument but the power imbalance between multi-class users and pure class users will feel similar after seeing PTS parses due to overpowered multi-class skill combos and the nerfs to pure classes to reign in the unanticipated power combos from the multi-classes.
You are currently free in ESO to be a mage running heavy armor if you really want as the game allows that...just don't expect to perform adequately in group content where performance matters. Every one of the pro multi-classing people act like nobody plays anything but overland solo story questing, when multiclassing completely upends if not outright destroys large swaths of the game such as PVP and PVE end game content. If multi-classing was locked out of PVP and PVE end game that would be find but the combat team isn't doing that so multiclassing must be balanced which will remove some of the "fun" you so desperately want so that will not completely ruin all of the "fun" for players in other areas of the game. I'm expecting nerfs that will make the wailing and gnashing of teeth from when the devs nerfed Oakensoul seem like a happy time after multiclassing goes live.
You're wrong on more skill lines bringing more build diversity and player agency - this was proven with hybridization where build diversity in end game constricted more and you saw less diversity because everyone could/had to run the META setup regardless of if you're a stam or mag build. And overland players rarely even knew what a build was before Oakensoul so they're not worried about multiclassing and its disastrous effect on the game at large.
ESOs only real restriction left is classes and frankly since multiclassing is 100% unbalancable by the current combat team it is a concept that needs to be scrapped and sent back to the drawing board to be reconsidered for PTS testing in 1-2 years when the idea is matured, balanced, and tested so that pure classes won't be left behind and end game destroyed.
You absolutely can play how you want, when you want, where you want, at your own discretion. No one is forcing you to follow the META. Start your own groups if you have an issue with meta based gameplay.
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No, in the end game we play the class and build dictated by our raid leads because raiding isn't about the individual, it's about the team and accomplishing the mission. I'm a healer main and have a trial ready healer in every class in case my raid lead wants me on a specific class for group comp. I also have all of the META healer sets and older no longer-META sets in my bank in case those ever come back into favor so I'm ready to flex to whatever my Raid Lead requires. Why? Because we have to respect out fellow players to not waste their time running a sub optimal or even a bad build because we need to pull our weight as a healer, DPS, or tanks. People look at logs and can see when one isn't pulling their weight.
I'm curious what areas of the game do you play if you think we have so much player agency regarding build? I love vet and vet HM raiding, vet/vet HM dungeons, I do all of the PVE story lines, and once in a while I inflate my opponent's KD in Cyrodiil as a PVP tourist. Outside of the PVE story stuff balance is important in every other area of the game I'm playing.6 -
Ragnarok0130✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It will be a great update with a lot of options. Most players are happy with it and the others will adapt and also enjoy it. For sure.
the thing is people are not adapting they are already leaving, and some changing the way they play to play less because they dont want to leave everyone else high and dry and other already made thier mind up they dont like it and thats ok because with such a gigantic change for the worse people wont need to test it or even try it.
I have seen quite a few people who have quit the game peeking their heads back in, with the aspect of subclassing. If they quit in the past, I don't think they will stick around anyways but it is bringing interest back to the game. I just fear they will nerf base classes too much, basically requiring less "pure" class setups.
I do hope vet HM/trifectas will become more accessible with the dps increase, and that they don't go nuclear with nerfs.
Don't get your hope up for accessibility as jumping from overland to vet trials due to a big DPS spike has a lot of socialization issues like we saw when Oakensoul dropped. It got so bad with people not showing, not following the RL's instructions, standing behind the healers and so on that some leads I know stopped allowing Oaken builds in response to eliminate the madness. If we're talking about current raiders getting an extra push maybe it'll work.
ZoS doesn't compensate well for their nerfs. With U35 we had something like a 30% heal nerf and I can't remember what the DPS nerf was but it was substantial. ZoS compensated by taking certain bosses health down by 10% but leaving outgoing damage unchanged so we were still in the hole by a large amount. Let us not forget that ever since Rockgrove trials have been more difficult by design as well.
I'm expecting a 1-2 year yo-yo balancing method of sweeping extremes trying to get the sauce right while murdering pure class performance. ZoS really needs to find a way to keep pure classes unaffected by multi-classing nerfs. It'd be great if they had the tech to put a condition on nerfs that if all three class skills are present the nerf is null and previous stat takes effect. If less than 3 class lines are present invoke new performance stat.4 -
Orbital78✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnarok0130 wrote: »Don't get your hope up for accessibility as jumping from overland to vet trials due to a big DPS spike has a lot of socialization issues like we saw when Oakensoul dropped. It got so bad with people not showing, not following the RL's instructions, standing behind the healers and so on that some leads I know stopped allowing Oaken builds in response to eliminate the madness. If we're talking about current raiders getting an extra push maybe it'll work.
ZoS doesn't compensate well for their nerfs. With U35 we had something like a 30% heal nerf and I can't remember what the DPS nerf was but it was substantial. ZoS compensated by taking certain bosses health down by 10% but leaving outgoing damage unchanged so we were still in the hole by a large amount. Let us not forget that ever since Rockgrove trials have been more difficult by design as well.
I'm expecting a 1-2 year yo-yo balancing method of sweeping extremes trying to get the sauce right while murdering pure class performance. ZoS really needs to find a way to keep pure classes unaffected by multi-classing nerfs. It'd be great if they had the tech to put a condition on nerfs that if all three class skills are present the nerf is null and previous stat takes effect. If less than 3 class lines are present invoke new performance stat.
Dunno, I'm just hoping it will give my guild core the last 20% push to finally get out of vRG jail. So tired of Bahsei at this point.2 -
Daoin✭✭✭✭heya staff i'd like the post shut down now please, its getting a bit too long for me to keep an eye on1
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Daoin✭✭✭✭Ragnarok0130 wrote: »Don't get your hope up for accessibility as jumping from overland to vet trials due to a big DPS spike has a lot of socialization issues like we saw when Oakensoul dropped. It got so bad with people not showing, not following the RL's instructions, standing behind the healers and so on that some leads I know stopped allowing Oaken builds in response to eliminate the madness. If we're talking about current raiders getting an extra push maybe it'll work.
ZoS doesn't compensate well for their nerfs. With U35 we had something like a 30% heal nerf and I can't remember what the DPS nerf was but it was substantial. ZoS compensated by taking certain bosses health down by 10% but leaving outgoing damage unchanged so we were still in the hole by a large amount. Let us not forget that ever since Rockgrove trials have been more difficult by design as well.
I'm expecting a 1-2 year yo-yo balancing method of sweeping extremes trying to get the sauce right while murdering pure class performance. ZoS really needs to find a way to keep pure classes unaffected by multi-classing nerfs. It'd be great if they had the tech to put a condition on nerfs that if all three class skills are present the nerf is null and previous stat takes effect. If less than 3 class lines are present invoke new performance stat.
Dunno, I'm just hoping it will give my guild core the last 20% push to finally get out of vRG jail. So tired of Bahsei at this point.
there should not be updates at other peoples expense to get people past trials there should be more people doing and completing them.my opinion was simply take the achievments and titles of the overall completion score considering its not really a personal achievment and give them more rewards for doing them, while completionins and trial runners could both be happyEdited by Daoin on April 28, 2025 7:23AM2 -
Daoin✭✭✭✭Ragnarok0130 wrote: »It will be a great update with a lot of options. Most players are happy with it and the others will adapt and also enjoy it. For sure.
the thing is people are not adapting they are already leaving, and some changing the way they play to play less because they dont want to leave everyone else high and dry and other already made thier mind up they dont like it and thats ok because with such a gigantic change for the worse people wont need to test it or even try it.
I have seen quite a few people who have quit the game peeking their heads back in, with the aspect of subclassing. If they quit in the past, I don't think they will stick around anyways but it is bringing interest back to the game. I just fear they will nerf base classes too much, basically requiring less "pure" class setups.
I do hope vet HM/trifectas will become more accessible with the dps increase, and that they don't go nuclear with nerfs.
Don't get your hope up for accessibility as jumping from overland to vet trials due to a big DPS spike has a lot of socialization issues like we saw when Oakensoul dropped. It got so bad with people not showing, not following the RL's instructions, standing behind the healers and so on that some leads I know stopped allowing Oaken builds in response to eliminate the madness. If we're talking about current raiders getting an extra push maybe it'll work.
ZoS doesn't compensate well for their nerfs. With U35 we had something like a 30% heal nerf and I can't remember what the DPS nerf was but it was substantial. ZoS compensated by taking certain bosses health down by 10% but leaving outgoing damage unchanged so we were still in the hole by a large amount. Let us not forget that ever since Rockgrove trials have been more difficult by design as well.
I'm expecting a 1-2 year yo-yo balancing method of sweeping extremes trying to get the sauce right while murdering pure class performance. ZoS really needs to find a way to keep pure classes unaffected by multi-classing nerfs. It'd be great if they had the tech to put a condition on nerfs that if all three class skills are present the nerf is null and previous stat takes effect. If less than 3 class lines are present invoke new performance stat.
i thought update 35 was fine just like the others before it, nothing to extreme compared to this oneEdited by Daoin on April 28, 2025 7:21AM2 -
Daoin✭✭✭✭cmetzger93 wrote: »I play this game to have fun. Subclassing sounds like a blast for someone like me. Y'all seem very stressed and that isnt good for your mental health about a video game
thats a good thing eso needs to be attracting a bigger audience right now, but people dont get stressed they just leaveEdited by Daoin on April 28, 2025 6:54AM3 -
Orbital78✭✭✭✭✭
✭there should not be updates at everyones expense to get people past trials there should be more people doing and completing them
I agree, but it is also nice to see more builds being put on par with each other too. I don't know that this will be at anyone expense at this point. It is still too early to tell.1 -
Daoin✭✭✭✭there should not be updates at everyones expense to get people past trials there should be more people doing and completing them
I agree, but it is also nice to see more builds being put on par with each other too. I don't know that this will be at anyone expense at this point. It is still too early to tell.
edit made to say other peoples now. but i also sent a request to have this thread closed now its been a good one but getting to longEdited by Daoin on April 28, 2025 7:04AM1
This discussion has been closed.