Is it fair gameplay to use use Rush of Agony to pull players long distances and through objects?

emilyhyoyeon · February 22

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

show previous quotes

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

ruskiii wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone. We’ve had some conversations yesterday about this discussion, the Rush of Agony set, and the more recent community concerns and reports. This also included consideration for the overall feedback since we released the set.

To give a little background, all movement-type actions and skills, including pulls, have the potential to be impacted by variables including character movement speed and position, high ping, the amount of data being sent between the server and the client, and anything that negatively impacts server and client latency (including attacks by bad actors). What this can result in with any pull-type action or skill, not just the Rush of Agony set pull, is cases where the client thinks the target is in one spot and the server thinks it’s in another. One of the reasons this has been surfacing more with Rush of Agony is due to how popular the set is – more people using the set creates more opportunities for the pull to be impacted.

We have some work in progress that aims to reduce the overall amount of data being sent back and forth between the client and server, investigations into some known crashes related to player bonuses, and additional logging that will help us better identify crash and disconnect causes.

For the Rush of Agony set, specifically, we are looking at a few options to help reduce the chances of the current issue where some player characters are getting into a bad state after being a target of the pull. One possible solution we are considering is having the pull bring the target player back to a specific location instead of to the source player. This will decrease the amount of movement-related data the client needs to send to the server, though it could still happen. This is still in discussion as a potential option and not locked in. We're also discussing options to reduce the overall frequency at which a player could be pulled by this set.

These changes require some dev and engineering work to be done and tested, so realistically we are looking at Update 46 timing at the earliest. Thank you for all the input and suggestions related to this.

I can't understand the insistence of a small vocal minority to remove every unique/interesting set from the game.

It's definitely a small vocal minority who hates RoA for sure!

Oh really ?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/671959/get-rid-of-rushing-agony-from-pvp-right-now-please#latest

I think this thread here would say otherwise. It has some of the highest engagement of likes of any I've seen.

I was being sarcastic and I figured the cheesy for sure! made it obvious but I see not.

To anyone who agreed when they thought I was serious: it's pretty clear spending 10min in Cyrodiil in game that effectively nobody likes that set. It's not a forum complainers issue.

TechMaybeHic · February 22

At very least, besides position desync and being untied to a moving players location; the set needs:

1. A better visual warning (someone gap closing does not count as someone can gap close without the set and/or from stealth) Single target queues being subtle is fine. Mass devastating effects should be pronounced

2. A bigger cooldown for what it does seeing that it does at least as much as Dark Convergence at a fraction of the cooldown

3. Respect the rules of granting CC immunity. Of all the rules that could be broken; limitung the loss of control of your character should NEVER be one of them.

2/3 of these changes would impact PvE where the set is sourced so I also would strongly consider the other option of "only applies to monsters" if there is a lot of PvE users.

JanTanhide · February 22

Rush of Agony is my favorite gear set. I like the pull it has. Don't nerf it!

xylena_lazarow · February 22

ruskiii wrote: »

The visual cue would be the gap closer, and there is a very loud sound cue of the rush chains being deployed

They often don't play until after the server has decided you've been pulled, or don't play at all, or get obscured by a million other brighter louder (but non threatening) effects. This is more likely in Cyro than BGs. Like mentioned earlier, normal sets like Rallying Cry or MDW don't turn the entire battlefield upside down every time the game lags, RoA though...

Thumbless_Bot · February 22

ruskiii wrote: »

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katanagirl1 wrote: »

I had to skim through a lot of this, but I didn’t see anything about adding a visual clue for the pull. At least Dark Convergence has a large aoe and the swirling black hole kind of visual effects. With Rush of Agony, suddenly you are sucked into a mass of other players and annihilated before you even know anything is happening. You can block or dodge roll out of Dark Convergence now.

The visual cue would be the gap closer, and there is a very loud sound cue of the rush chains being deployed. Both the pull from rush and dark convergence are blockable.

For the record you still can not, and should never try, dodge rolling out of dark convergence, lest ye be doomed.

The audio and visual queues are not distinct and unique enough for at least me. I think a set like this needs the queues to be much clearer, like dc or charm and, perhaps, the delay needs to be longer, if they keep this God forsaken set in the game at all.

Also I don't believe you can roll dodge roa. I've been pulled mid roll dodge, though I must admit, I was roll dodging for another reason. Just another reason this set is cracked.

Avran_Sylt · February 22

ruskiii wrote: »

show previous quotes

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I had to skim through a lot of this, but I didn’t see anything about adding a visual clue for the pull. At least Dark Convergence has a large aoe and the swirling black hole kind of visual effects. With Rush of Agony, suddenly you are sucked into a mass of other players and annihilated before you even know anything is happening. You can block or dodge roll out of Dark Convergence now.

The visual cue would be the gap closer, and there is a very loud sound cue of the rush chains being deployed. Both the pull from rush and dark convergence are blockable.

For the record you still can not, and should never try, dodge rolling out of dark convergence, lest ye be doomed.

If I’m not facing the person that got gap closed, then I don’t get the visual indicator.

1v1,sure, you can make an assumption, though this is a multi-pull set.

forum_gpt · February 22

React wrote: »

show previous quotes

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone. We’ve had some conversations yesterday about this discussion, the Rush of Agony set, and the more recent community concerns and reports. This also included consideration for the overall feedback since we released the set.

To give a little background, all movement-type actions and skills, including pulls, have the potential to be impacted by variables including character movement speed and position, high ping, the amount of data being sent between the server and the client, and anything that negatively impacts server and client latency (including attacks by bad actors). What this can result in with any pull-type action or skill, not just the Rush of Agony set pull, is cases where the client thinks the target is in one spot and the server thinks it’s in another. One of the reasons this has been surfacing more with Rush of Agony is due to how popular the set is – more people using the set creates more opportunities for the pull to be impacted.

We have some work in progress that aims to reduce the overall amount of data being sent back and forth between the client and server, investigations into some known crashes related to player bonuses, and additional logging that will help us better identify crash and disconnect causes.

For the Rush of Agony set, specifically, we are looking at a few options to help reduce the chances of the current issue where some player characters are getting into a bad state after being a target of the pull. One possible solution we are considering is having the pull bring the target player back to a specific location instead of to the source player. This will decrease the amount of movement-related data the client needs to send to the server, though it could still happen. This is still in discussion as a potential option and not locked in. We're also discussing options to reduce the overall frequency at which a player could be pulled by this set.

These changes require some dev and engineering work to be done and tested, so realistically we are looking at Update 46 timing at the earliest. Thank you for all the input and suggestions related to this.

might I recommended just deleting the set instead

Right? Like why are we so obsessed with having a set that breaks the rules of combat that we're going to put (5+ months?) of dev time into making it so the set works better, but not actually fix the part where it doesn't grant CC immunity?

If you're fixing location desync in general, great. It's been an issue with knockbacks and pulls for years. But the immediate issue and the subject of this thread (and many other threads!) is rush itself. Make the set give CC immunity.

Just block. I mean, it's not like blocking exists for a reason or anything. We should definitely overhaul an entire set and spend even more dev time instead of using the basic mechanics already in the game. Next thing you know, we’ll be asking for CC immunity on getting sneezed at. Maybe, just maybe, the problem isn’t the set—it’s people refusing to adapt.

The only thing that should be fixed on Rush of Agony is the line-of-sight check where it pulls people through solid objects.

TechMaybeHic · February 22

forum_gpt wrote: »

show previous quotes

React wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone. We’ve had some conversations yesterday about this discussion, the Rush of Agony set, and the more recent community concerns and reports. This also included consideration for the overall feedback since we released the set.

To give a little background, all movement-type actions and skills, including pulls, have the potential to be impacted by variables including character movement speed and position, high ping, the amount of data being sent between the server and the client, and anything that negatively impacts server and client latency (including attacks by bad actors). What this can result in with any pull-type action or skill, not just the Rush of Agony set pull, is cases where the client thinks the target is in one spot and the server thinks it’s in another. One of the reasons this has been surfacing more with Rush of Agony is due to how popular the set is – more people using the set creates more opportunities for the pull to be impacted.

We have some work in progress that aims to reduce the overall amount of data being sent back and forth between the client and server, investigations into some known crashes related to player bonuses, and additional logging that will help us better identify crash and disconnect causes.

For the Rush of Agony set, specifically, we are looking at a few options to help reduce the chances of the current issue where some player characters are getting into a bad state after being a target of the pull. One possible solution we are considering is having the pull bring the target player back to a specific location instead of to the source player. This will decrease the amount of movement-related data the client needs to send to the server, though it could still happen. This is still in discussion as a potential option and not locked in. We're also discussing options to reduce the overall frequency at which a player could be pulled by this set.

These changes require some dev and engineering work to be done and tested, so realistically we are looking at Update 46 timing at the earliest. Thank you for all the input and suggestions related to this.

might I recommended just deleting the set instead

Right? Like why are we so obsessed with having a set that breaks the rules of combat that we're going to put (5+ months?) of dev time into making it so the set works better, but not actually fix the part where it doesn't grant CC immunity?

If you're fixing location desync in general, great. It's been an issue with knockbacks and pulls for years. But the immediate issue and the subject of this thread (and many other threads!) is rush itself. Make the set give CC immunity.

Just block. I mean, it's not like blocking exists for a reason or anything. We should definitely overhaul an entire set and spend even more dev time instead of using the basic mechanics already in the game. Next thing you know, we’ll be asking for CC immunity on getting sneezed at. Maybe, just maybe, the problem isn’t the set—it’s people refusing to adapt.

The only thing that should be fixed on Rush of Agony is the line-of-sight check where it pulls people through solid objects.

Even if the visual is good enough to where people can block, the set has way too short of a cooldown for what it does in comparison to standards set by other sets and abilities and the rule it breaks should never have seen the light of day. Reasonably countering it is just a small fraction of it's issues. It needs a big nerf.

Dojohoda · February 22

There's no need, Make ROA a PVE set only! We already have Dark Convergence which aoe-pulls to a location.

Give ROA the Azureblight set treatment. Didn't someone justify removing Azureblight because we "already have a boom set".? Well, we already have dark convergence.

RealLoveBVB · February 22

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

To anyone who agreed when they thought I was serious: it's pretty clear spending 10min in Cyrodiil in game that effectively nobody likes that set. It's not a forum complainers issue.

I like it. I also die to it sometimes. The difference is, that I try to improve myself and think about, how to dodge or avoid damage, while the majority is going to the forums instead and does complaints.

You have to make strategies and counter plays, that's how pvp works. Complaining is just the lazy way.

spartaxoxo · February 22

Some times things are legitimately overpowered and those things are rightfully criticized.

Thumbless_Bot · February 22

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

show previous quotes

ruskiii wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I had to skim through a lot of this, but I didn’t see anything about adding a visual clue for the pull. At least Dark Convergence has a large aoe and the swirling black hole kind of visual effects. With Rush of Agony, suddenly you are sucked into a mass of other players and annihilated before you even know anything is happening. You can block or dodge roll out of Dark Convergence now.

The visual cue would be the gap closer, and there is a very loud sound cue of the rush chains being deployed. Both the pull from rush and dark convergence are blockable.

For the record you still can not, and should never try, dodge rolling out of dark convergence, lest ye be doomed.

If I’m not facing the person that got gap closed, then I don’t get the visual indicator.

1v1,sure, you can make an assumption, though this is a multi-pull set.

A very clear aoe indicator is needed along with a longer delay before the pull, a pull that doesn't desynch, and a muuuuch longer cooldown, like 60 seconds. This set is like an ultimate.

ketsparrowhawk · February 22

Just needs to follow the Cc rules. Doesn't need to be removed from PvP. Doesn't need to be adjusted in any other way. It would still be highly effective and widely used. This is the solution we've been asking for since this set was introduced. But since they don't seem interested in doing that, then yes removing it from PVP would be my second choice. We ban this set from every guild event because the second more than one person equipped it it is an unbearable experience for everyone. Any victory that involves rush of agony is unearned because it is literally cheating. it's crazy we have such a long thread about this when the solution is simple and clear.

ketsparrowhawk · February 22

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

show previous quotes

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

To anyone who agreed when they thought I was serious: it's pretty clear spending 10min in Cyrodiil in game that effectively nobody likes that set. It's not a forum complainers issue.

I like it. I also die to it sometimes. The difference is, that I try to improve myself and think about, how to dodge or avoid damage, while the majority is going to the forums instead and does complaints.

You have to make strategies and counter plays, that's how pvp works. Complaining is just the lazy way.

I recognize many of the names in here and can assure you they are not complaining because they are dying to this set. I myself am quite good at countering Rush but still recognize that it is beyond overpowered and needs an adjustment. As a commenter above said, sometimes things really are OP. Should we just never criticize anything ever?

Also if you're in an environment with multiple enemies wearing it then you literally cannot counter it since you never get cc immunity and are continuously yanked around with no recourse aside from an immov pot. And even that is just a limited duration.

Hymzir · February 22

Your server architecture clearly can't handle the set. Just disable it until such time when you have managed to fix the server-side issues. Then we can talk about balancing it. Whether it should give CC immunity, what reach the pull should have, and does it really needs an AOE damage burst in addition to being an automatic untargeted mass pull.

It's beyond dumb to just shrug and tell your customers to put up with this garbage while you work on a possible fix of an iffy maybe perhaps sorta could be nature.

Lags · February 23

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone. We’ve had some conversations yesterday about this discussion, the Rush of Agony set, and the more recent community concerns and reports. This also included consideration for the overall feedback since we released the set.

To give a little background, all movement-type actions and skills, including pulls, have the potential to be impacted by variables including character movement speed and position, high ping, the amount of data being sent between the server and the client, and anything that negatively impacts server and client latency (including attacks by bad actors). What this can result in with any pull-type action or skill, not just the Rush of Agony set pull, is cases where the client thinks the target is in one spot and the server thinks it’s in another. One of the reasons this has been surfacing more with Rush of Agony is due to how popular the set is – more people using the set creates more opportunities for the pull to be impacted.

We have some work in progress that aims to reduce the overall amount of data being sent back and forth between the client and server, investigations into some known crashes related to player bonuses, and additional logging that will help us better identify crash and disconnect causes.

For the Rush of Agony set, specifically, we are looking at a few options to help reduce the chances of the current issue where some player characters are getting into a bad state after being a target of the pull. One possible solution we are considering is having the pull bring the target player back to a specific location instead of to the source player. This will decrease the amount of movement-related data the client needs to send to the server, though it could still happen. This is still in discussion as a potential option and not locked in. We're also discussing options to reduce the overall frequency at which a player could be pulled by this set.

These changes require some dev and engineering work to be done and tested, so realistically we are looking at Update 46 timing at the earliest. Thank you for all the input and suggestions related to this.

just revert it back to how it was before you guys nerfed it. problem solved

katanagirl1 · February 23

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

show previous quotes

ruskiii wrote: »

The visual cue would be the gap closer, and there is a very loud sound cue of the rush chains being deployed

They often don't play until after the server has decided you've been pulled, or don't play at all, or get obscured by a million other brighter louder (but non threatening) effects. This is more likely in Cyro than BGs. Like mentioned earlier, normal sets like Rallying Cry or MDW don't turn the entire battlefield upside down every time the game lags, RoA though...

I have never seen this or heard this in all of my RoA encounters. There have been many.

Yeah, maybe it is just in the performance of Cyrodiil that these very indistinct cues are lagging.

I did run a BG today with someone wearing RoA but our team was getting stomped so bad I didn’t notice anything there either.

EDIT: clarification

RaidingTraiding · February 23

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone. We’ve had some conversations yesterday about this discussion, the Rush of Agony set, and the more recent community concerns and reports. This also included consideration for the overall feedback since we released the set.

To give a little background, all movement-type actions and skills, including pulls, have the potential to be impacted by variables including character movement speed and position, high ping, the amount of data being sent between the server and the client, and anything that negatively impacts server and client latency (including attacks by bad actors). What this can result in with any pull-type action or skill, not just the Rush of Agony set pull, is cases where the client thinks the target is in one spot and the server thinks it’s in another. One of the reasons this has been surfacing more with Rush of Agony is due to how popular the set is – more people using the set creates more opportunities for the pull to be impacted.

We have some work in progress that aims to reduce the overall amount of data being sent back and forth between the client and server, investigations into some known crashes related to player bonuses, and additional logging that will help us better identify crash and disconnect causes.

For the Rush of Agony set, specifically, we are looking at a few options to help reduce the chances of the current issue where some player characters are getting into a bad state after being a target of the pull. One possible solution we are considering is having the pull bring the target player back to a specific location instead of to the source player. This will decrease the amount of movement-related data the client needs to send to the server, though it could still happen. This is still in discussion as a potential option and not locked in. We're also discussing options to reduce the overall frequency at which a player could be pulled by this set.

These changes require some dev and engineering work to be done and tested, so realistically we are looking at Update 46 timing at the earliest. Thank you for all the input and suggestions related to this.

I think you missed the bigger issue: this set is too overpowered and has no place in pvp. I say this as a user of this set. Whenever I use it I feel like it's cheating and completely unfair. I've showed videos of it to my non eso friends and they laugh at the ridiculousness and absurd advantage it gives me. Wouldn't the easiest fix just be to make it pve only? that would save a lot of time, effort, and budget and it's what the majority wants. I know your spreadsheet says it's a popular set because of how many people use it, but people use it because it's so ridiculously over powered you'd just be gimping yourself for not using it. I use it and I hate this set more than any set that's ever been in the game because not using it puts me at a disadvantage, and I use it in hopes that it motivates others to speak out against it. Just the sheer amount of forum posts should give you a hint that this set has to go. Even if all issues were fixed (doubt it) it doesn't change the fact that it's completely busted. It's just wild that this set has been around in this state for 3 years and all you've managed to do is buff it and create desync issues.

TechMaybeHic · February 23

katanagirl1 wrote: »

show previous quotes

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ruskiii wrote: »

The visual cue would be the gap closer, and there is a very loud sound cue of the rush chains being deployed

They often don't play until after the server has decided you've been pulled, or don't play at all, or get obscured by a million other brighter louder (but non threatening) effects. This is more likely in Cyro than BGs. Like mentioned earlier, normal sets like Rallying Cry or MDW don't turn the entire battlefield upside down every time the game lags, RoA though...

I have never seen this or heard this in all of my RoA encounters. There have been many.

Yeah, maybe it is just in the performance of Cyrodiil that these very indistinct cues are lagging.

I did run a BG today with someone wearing RoA but our team was getting stomped so bad I didn’t notice anything there either.

EDIT: clarification

I never noticed it either, prime time cyro. Went in the day time finally just to try a build and my factions was getting hit at tri keeps by a ball group trying to bomb. Was maybe 9 other randoms there and all we could do was jump from front flag to back flag to try to slow the flip, and the ball pushed back and I made for the mezzanine stairs and I saw it. Its so very rare outside of that very uncrowded space

katanagirl1 · February 23

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

show previous quotes

katanagirl1 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ruskiii wrote: »

The visual cue would be the gap closer, and there is a very loud sound cue of the rush chains being deployed

They often don't play until after the server has decided you've been pulled, or don't play at all, or get obscured by a million other brighter louder (but non threatening) effects. This is more likely in Cyro than BGs. Like mentioned earlier, normal sets like Rallying Cry or MDW don't turn the entire battlefield upside down every time the game lags, RoA though...

I have never seen this or heard this in all of my RoA encounters. There have been many.

Yeah, maybe it is just in the performance of Cyrodiil that these very indistinct cues are lagging.

I did run a BG today with someone wearing RoA but our team was getting stomped so bad I didn’t notice anything there either.

EDIT: clarification

I never noticed it either, prime time cyro. Went in the day time finally just to try a build and my factions was getting hit at tri keeps by a ball group trying to bomb. Was maybe 9 other randoms there and all we could do was jump from front flag to back flag to try to slow the flip, and the ball pushed back and I made for the mezzanine stairs and I saw it. Its so very rare outside of that very uncrowded space

I guess I also feel like having someone stampede into your area from a ball group is not a surprising move, either. Stamina builds do that often.

frogthroat · February 24

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

It is not just shade, but every teleport & rapid movement ability (like Streak or Vault). So be careful what you ask for.

ZOS already nerfed Shade, Arcanist Portal and Warden Gate, just because this set exists.

Previously, you could for example use shades in IC to port back to spawn tower. In itself it was non-issue, but with this set, you could pull players back to your spawn's "safe zone" resulting in enemy players being killed by "environmental damage" (kinda like traps & PvE mechanics). As far as I am aware, players were not even credited for the kills, but were keep doing that for their own ego & amusement.... So Skills got nerfed as Set was brand new Paid Content, so ZOS did not nerfed the set (obviously /S)... At least this is how it looks to me.

Since the set is the problem, it a set that should be adjusted.

The set is what I meant.

It could cancel the pull if you activate a teleport during the "amassing power" phase. This would keep the set alive, but remove the exploit. As in:

When you deal direct damage with a Blink, Charge, Leap, Teleport, or Pull ability, you begin to amass power. After 0.8 seconds, pull enemies within 12 meters.

Would be changed to:

When you deal direct damage with a Blink, Charge, Leap, Teleport, or Pull ability, you begin to amass power. After 0.8 seconds, pull enemies within 12 meters. If you activate a Blink, Charge, Leap, Teleport, or Pull ability again during this time, the pull is cancelled.

Decimus · February 24

frogthroat wrote: »

show previous quotes

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

It is not just shade, but every teleport & rapid movement ability (like Streak or Vault). So be careful what you ask for.

ZOS already nerfed Shade, Arcanist Portal and Warden Gate, just because this set exists.

Previously, you could for example use shades in IC to port back to spawn tower. In itself it was non-issue, but with this set, you could pull players back to your spawn's "safe zone" resulting in enemy players being killed by "environmental damage" (kinda like traps & PvE mechanics). As far as I am aware, players were not even credited for the kills, but were keep doing that for their own ego & amusement.... So Skills got nerfed as Set was brand new Paid Content, so ZOS did not nerfed the set (obviously /S)... At least this is how it looks to me.

Since the set is the problem, it a set that should be adjusted.

The set is what I meant.

It could cancel the pull if you activate a teleport during the "amassing power" phase. This would keep the set alive, but remove the exploit. As in:

When you deal direct damage with a Blink, Charge, Leap, Teleport, or Pull ability, you begin to amass power. After 0.8 seconds, pull enemies within 12 meters.

Would be changed to:

When you deal direct damage with a Blink, Charge, Leap, Teleport, or Pull ability, you begin to amass power. After 0.8 seconds, pull enemies within 12 meters. If you activate a Blink, Charge, Leap, Teleport, or Pull ability again during this time, the pull is cancelled.

It should be pointed that it wasn't even Rush of Agony people were abusing with that, but just the DW Scribe pull (which is also an AoE) - this gave a lot more range to the "yoink".

This of course got people banned as it was abused to instakill people and resulted in Shadow Image no longer being castable in safe zones.

Iriidius · February 24

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

show previous quotes

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

.

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Setting up your dueling build and fighting them 1 by 1, while all others are watching?

Have you ever actually tried to X? Yeah you do often pick them off 1 by 1, and you can do things like adapt a DK dueling build to incorporate an AoE strat like Thrive in Chaos + Talons for breaking down groups, while still winning most 1v1s. Nobody was ever winning outnumbered fights against equal or better skilled opponents in the first place. However, you might still be able to clown them unaware if you had an overpowered proc that automates the hardest part...

Here is a prime example why RoA is a good set against groups (its still the old version without the delay): https://youtu.be/zz-HMjs4_ao?si=D-I_WvG9UmjnyEQ0

If that wouldn't exist, you wouldn't be able to fight such outnumbered fights.

2 things

1) that is a group of players not a ball group which is what people have a problem with.
2) they were already so neatly stacked; you could have killed them with any other set and VD which is how people use to bomb in the past.

Edit: upon further look I actually don't even think you proc'd rush of agony lol. your tether stunned them before the ROA

1) why exactly should there be a ball group? Players here were complaining about ball groups, which are using RoA, where I fully agree. This topic was never about to kill ball groups.

2) +your edit: as mentioned above, it was still the old RoA with an instant pull. RoA procced, as soon as I jumped on them.

A deto bomber would have killed some on the flag too, but then I hadn't a chance to refrag or continue the fight, as deto bombers have only this single burst. Plus the chance of dying is incredibly higher.

I just wanted to show, how RoA is intended to use. Not "abused" by ball groups or dragging players through walls and doors.

How does rush of agony give you „a chance to refrag or continue the fight“ that a bomber without it would not have? You used rush of agony to stack a group of players that was already stacked. It didn’t add anything to your survivability and you killed the players upstairs at backdoor without even using rush of agony. How does replacing rush of agony with acuity, rallyngcry or any other set and ambush or other skill with deto make you squishier? How does not using deto at second bomb reduce your dmg more than when not even slotting it?

A bomber without rush of agony could have also bombed the players at flag (with or without deto), rolled upstairs to backdoor and bombed a second time without deto.
If rush of agony did not exist you would totally still be able to fight groups stacked like this group outnumbered. You have much more dmg with deto and acuity than with roa on stacked players. Would be harder to bomb unstacked players but that is not real bombing.

frogthroat · February 24

Decimus wrote: »

It should be pointed that it wasn't even Rush of Agony people were abusing with that, but just the DW Scribe pull (which is also an AoE) - this gave a lot more range to the "yoink".

This of course got people banned as it was abused to instakill people and resulted in Shadow Image no longer being castable in safe zones.

Ah, so the set itself is not the cause of the problem, but how delayed pull works in general? I'm more of a casual PVP player and I die so often that RoA is just a drop in the ocean -- that's why I don't personally mind it. But if it would be up to you, how would you solve the issue?

Soraka · February 24

Like when DC came out, I've gotten to where I am getting better at blocking and getting out of it and rarely get killed by large groups with it unless I lag and get pulled from too far away (from my client side perspective). It is a lot more subtle though, quieter noise and smaller visual and I honestly can only do it when it's certain groups using it because I am more able to anticipate the group movement and the individual who uses the gap closer. If a random solo uses it I pretty much get pulled. But I also don't die to solos with it. People complained a lot about DC and now no one cares about DC proc at all.

I also am a medium distance character, I imagine it's a lot harder for melee people to detect and block. With lag it becomes a lot harder. With teleports that pull you from stealth into areas you never were, it's kind of impossible/luck based (or maybe detect pot based).

The teleport behind structures issue, CC immunity issue, and lag are really what makes this set obnoxious. Just my opinion and observation.

xylena_lazarow · February 24

Soraka wrote: »

Like when DC came out, I've gotten to where I am getting better at blocking and getting out of it and rarely get killed by large groups with it unless I lag and get pulled from too far away (from my client side perspective). It is a lot more subtle though, quieter noise and smaller visual and I honestly can only do it when it's certain groups using it because I am more able to anticipate the group movement and the individual who uses the gap closer. If a random solo uses it I pretty much get pulled. But I also don't die to solos with it.

Now compare all that skill you had to learn with the player using RoA. Your skill barrier went up, way up. With RoA their skill barrier goes down, fewer buttons, fewer timers, no extra gcds, automation replacing awareness and timing.

Iriidius · February 24

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

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Rogue_Coyote wrote: »

Before this person released said video, this forum was full of complaints from pvp players about Plaguebreak killing them within NPC stacks at flags or on doors, which were completely ignored.

Not anymore. There were also many threads about nightblades invi cloak and they have changed that too due to that.

So it totally works right now, that a bunch of players do some complaining in the forums, instead of working with base mechanics, to make things changed.

So of course RoA will be nerfed and of course new threads will appear like "nerf nbs more, nerf coldfire, nerf oils, mimimi".

Invi cloak was probably changed to make it easier to use for very casual players forgetting to press it every 3 seconds.
PvP players complained about it since ESO and cloak exist and nothing has been done.

Not a fan of this change either as it already got much weaker over the years no longer cleansing or supressing dots while the counters got stronger but I doubt it was because of PvP. NB as a whole even without cloak is the strongest class in PvP however together with sorc and this makes requests to nerf cloak as one of its skills more popular.

ZoS nerfs much less unbalanced things and nerfed things regularly just to wrap up meta but of course asking to nerf the most unbalanced and hated set is totally arbitrarily nonsense and leads to more arbitrary nerfs(like siege, nb nerf is reasonable).

If your AD PvDoor zerg got visit by a ballgroup like PvDoor zergs deserve you would probably not defend this set so much anymore but somehow ballgroups despite claiming to prevent zergs from PvDooring whole map almost never prevent AD from PvDooring Blackreach PC EU.

katanagirl1 · February 24

Soraka wrote: »

Like when DC came out, I've gotten to where I am getting better at blocking and getting out of it and rarely get killed by large groups with it unless I lag and get pulled from too far away (from my client side perspective). It is a lot more subtle though, quieter noise and smaller visual and I honestly can only do it when it's certain groups using it because I am more able to anticipate the group movement and the individual who uses the gap closer. If a random solo uses it I pretty much get pulled. But I also don't die to solos with it. People complained a lot about DC and now no one cares about DC proc at all.

I also am a medium distance character, I imagine it's a lot harder for melee people to detect and block. With lag it becomes a lot harder. With teleports that pull you from stealth into areas you never were, it's kind of impossible/luck based (or maybe detect pot based).

The teleport behind structures issue, CC immunity issue, and lag are really what makes this set obnoxious. Just my opinion and observation.

You usually get killed by the ulti dump after the pull, or during this event it is a VD proc from a lower health player.

In Gray Host at least, there are too many players around to notice the gap closer or hear anything from all of the other sounds going off at the same time.

Belegnole · February 24

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

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Scytex01 wrote: »

I am not sure if this caught your attention but the issue you describe is not only from Rush of Agony or other "pull" sets but also from Knockbacks and Knockups like Meteor and Templar Aedric Spear to mention some examples.
What my guild and multiple other guilds have realized as that the described behaviour only happens when the person does not break free fast enough.
Therefore I do not think changing the location of the Pull is gonna change anything to be completely honest..

Greetings Scy

Yep, you're right Scy and we're aware. Any movement-related skill (blink, leaps, charges, etc.) can be affected in unintended ways when the data being sent between the server and the client is impacted. That's why the one example mentioned wouldn't be a catch-all solution, and why we're still talking through solutions.

How about fixing the problem instead of applying bandaids? Nerfing multiple sets because of your horrible server infrastructure is just silly.

CrazyKitty · February 24

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone. We’ve had some conversations yesterday about this discussion, the Rush of Agony set, and the more recent community concerns and reports. This also included consideration for the overall feedback since we released the set.

To give a little background, all movement-type actions and skills, including pulls, have the potential to be impacted by variables including character movement speed and position, high ping, the amount of data being sent between the server and the client, and anything that negatively impacts server and client latency (including attacks by bad actors). What this can result in with any pull-type action or skill, not just the Rush of Agony set pull, is cases where the client thinks the target is in one spot and the server thinks it’s in another. One of the reasons this has been surfacing more with Rush of Agony is due to how popular the set is – more people using the set creates more opportunities for the pull to be impacted.

We have some work in progress that aims to reduce the overall amount of data being sent back and forth between the client and server, investigations into some known crashes related to player bonuses, and additional logging that will help us better identify crash and disconnect causes.

For the Rush of Agony set, specifically, we are looking at a few options to help reduce the chances of the current issue where some player characters are getting into a bad state after being a target of the pull. One possible solution we are considering is having the pull bring the target player back to a specific location instead of to the source player. This will decrease the amount of movement-related data the client needs to send to the server, though it could still happen. This is still in discussion as a potential option and not locked in. We're also discussing options to reduce the overall frequency at which a player could be pulled by this set.

These changes require some dev and engineering work to be done and tested, so realistically we are looking at Update 46 timing at the earliest. Thank you for all the input and suggestions related to this.

How did a set that doesn't obey the same conventions of every other set make it into the live game in the first place?

Why has it taken so long to simply announce that the set is being looked into when the time for making adjustments for the set was BEFORE the set ever went live?