Is it fair gameplay to use use Rush of Agony to pull players long distances and through objects?

allochthons · February 21

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

For the Rush of Agony set, specifically, we are looking at a few options to help reduce the chances of the current issue where some player characters are getting into a bad state after being a target of the pull.

The two most requested changes seem to be: CC immunity and a cooldown. Are either or both of those being considered?

NordSwordnBoard · February 21

Look at DC, scribed pulls, void bash from vateshran, not an issue. The problem with RA is the unique rule breaking lack of cc All the other pulls are manageable. I own multiple RA golden jewelry and sets, please make them all scrap (for pvp) I implore you. A sacrifice for the good of the many...

Turtle_Bot · February 21

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone. We’ve had some conversations yesterday about this discussion, the Rush of Agony set, and the more recent community concerns and reports. This also included consideration for the overall feedback since we released the set.

To give a little background, all movement-type actions and skills, including pulls, have the potential to be impacted by variables including character movement speed and position, high ping, the amount of data being sent between the server and the client, and anything that negatively impacts server and client latency (including attacks by bad actors). What this can result in with any pull-type action or skill, not just the Rush of Agony set pull, is cases where the client thinks the target is in one spot and the server thinks it’s in another. One of the reasons this has been surfacing more with Rush of Agony is due to how popular the set is – more people using the set creates more opportunities for the pull to be impacted.

We have some work in progress that aims to reduce the overall amount of data being sent back and forth between the client and server, investigations into some known crashes related to player bonuses, and additional logging that will help us better identify crash and disconnect causes.

For the Rush of Agony set, specifically, we are looking at a few options to help reduce the chances of the current issue where some player characters are getting into a bad state after being a target of the pull. One possible solution we are considering is having the pull bring the target player back to a specific location instead of to the source player. This will decrease the amount of movement-related data the client needs to send to the server, though it could still happen. This is still in discussion as a potential option and not locked in. We're also discussing options to reduce the overall frequency at which a player could be pulled by this set.

These changes require some dev and engineering work to be done and tested, so realistically we are looking at Update 46 timing at the earliest. Thank you for all the input and suggestions related to this.

Thanks for getting back to us with this info, glad to hear the set is finally being looked at.

As some have noted, the set is fine in PvE (and is sourced from PvE content), so maybe just make it only work in PvE content could be a simple (even if temporary) fix to allow the team more time to design something long term? That way the PvE crowd don't lose a nice tool, but it removes the set from PvP where it is causing issues and gives the team (and engineers) more time to test and design a solution that would keep majority of players happy, so there's not a massive rush (pun intended) to completely redesign the set.

Major_Mangle · February 21

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

show previous quotes

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone. We’ve had some conversations yesterday about this discussion, the Rush of Agony set, and the more recent community concerns and reports. This also included consideration for the overall feedback since we released the set.

To give a little background, all movement-type actions and skills, including pulls, have the potential to be impacted by variables including character movement speed and position, high ping, the amount of data being sent between the server and the client, and anything that negatively impacts server and client latency (including attacks by bad actors). What this can result in with any pull-type action or skill, not just the Rush of Agony set pull, is cases where the client thinks the target is in one spot and the server thinks it’s in another. One of the reasons this has been surfacing more with Rush of Agony is due to how popular the set is – more people using the set creates more opportunities for the pull to be impacted.

We have some work in progress that aims to reduce the overall amount of data being sent back and forth between the client and server, investigations into some known crashes related to player bonuses, and additional logging that will help us better identify crash and disconnect causes.

For the Rush of Agony set, specifically, we are looking at a few options to help reduce the chances of the current issue where some player characters are getting into a bad state after being a target of the pull. One possible solution we are considering is having the pull bring the target player back to a specific location instead of to the source player. This will decrease the amount of movement-related data the client needs to send to the server, though it could still happen. This is still in discussion as a potential option and not locked in. We're also discussing options to reduce the overall frequency at which a player could be pulled by this set.

These changes require some dev and engineering work to be done and tested, so realistically we are looking at Update 46 timing at the earliest. Thank you for all the input and suggestions related to this.

Thanks for getting back to us with this info, glad to hear the set is finally being looked at.

As some have noted, the set is fine in PvE (and is sourced from PvE content), so maybe just make it only work in PvE content could be a simple (even if temporary) fix to allow the team more time to design something long term? That way the PvE crowd don't lose a nice tool, but it removes the set from PvP where it is causing issues and gives the team (and engineers) more time to test and design a solution that would keep majority of players happy, so there's not a massive rush (pun intended) to completely redesign the set.

Never understood the entire "only PvE" take on RoA. In what scenario do NPC/mobs need to not be cc immune after getting pulled (which outside of the issue being discussed with shade here, being the most talked about issue with RoA). It makes no sense sorry....

Tommy_The_Gun · February 21

frogthroat wrote: »

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TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

https://youtu.be/pYJhLbBC6Jo

Looks like using Shade is the key to replication here. Might be it happens also during mobile fights but to successfully replicate it on demand you need the Shade.

Maybe Undo would work, too?

But this is good info to communicate to ZOS if the Shade is a key element here. I'm sure they can fix it that Rush of Agony pull is cancelled if the player teleports using Shade or Undo.

It is not just shade, but every teleport & rapid movement ability (like Streak or Vault). So be careful what you ask for.

ZOS already nerfed Shade, Arcanist Portal and Warden Gate, just because this set exists.

Previously, you could for example use shades in IC to port back to spawn tower. In itself it was non-issue, but with this set, you could pull players back to your spawn's "safe zone" resulting in enemy players being killed by "environmental damage" (kinda like traps & PvE mechanics). As far as I am aware, players were not even credited for the kills, but were keep doing that for their own ego & amusement.... So Skills got nerfed as Set was brand new Paid Content, so ZOS did not nerfed the set (obviously /S)... At least this is how it looks to me.

Since the set is the problem, it a set that should be adjusted.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

One solution that could work is making Rush of Agony not pull players.

Yep... that is the answer right there. Also... making it to pull players to a specific location is even worse. You would have players being pulled into "kill zones" without other players (casters/users of the set) being even in a slight risk or worse - players will pull others off bridges or to lava or other "no go" zone. Hence I do think it should not work on players at all or maybe (if it has to) to give some different CC effect like stun or fear etc.

demonology89 · February 21

I know this will be considered a bad take, but I love how easily other sets are sent to the scrap pile by nerfs, but this set they're tip toeing around.

Add CC immunity to it. Add a longer cooldown. Make it PVE only. Anything please.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom · February 21

Scytex01 wrote: »

I am not sure if this caught your attention but the issue you describe is not only from Rush of Agony or other "pull" sets but also from Knockbacks and Knockups like Meteor and Templar Aedric Spear to mention some examples.
What my guild and multiple other guilds have realized as that the described behaviour only happens when the person does not break free fast enough.
Therefore I do not think changing the location of the Pull is gonna change anything to be completely honest..

Greetings Scy

Yep, you're right Scy and we're aware. Any movement-related skill (blink, leaps, charges, etc.) can be affected in unintended ways when the data being sent between the server and the client is impacted. That's why the one example mentioned wouldn't be a catch-all solution, and why we're still talking through solutions.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · February 21

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

show previous quotes

Scytex01 wrote: »

I am not sure if this caught your attention but the issue you describe is not only from Rush of Agony or other "pull" sets but also from Knockbacks and Knockups like Meteor and Templar Aedric Spear to mention some examples.
What my guild and multiple other guilds have realized as that the described behaviour only happens when the person does not break free fast enough.
Therefore I do not think changing the location of the Pull is gonna change anything to be completely honest..

Greetings Scy

Yep, you're right Scy and we're aware. Any movement-related skill (blink, leaps, charges, etc.) can be affected in unintended ways when the data being sent between the server and the client is impacted. That's why the one example mentioned wouldn't be a catch-all solution, and why we're still talking through solutions.

A solution would be to move the pull to a ground effect left at the feet of the target affected instead of allowing the pull to drag to a player

G0K4R · February 21

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

A solution would be to move the pull to a ground effect left at the feet of the target affected instead of allowing the pull to drag to a player

What you describe is how dark convergence works. So your solution is just to remove rush of agony?

ketsparrowhawk · February 21

An absolutely toxic set and it's insane you guys have let it stay in the state that it's in for this long. It needs to follow the cc rules like everything else or it needs to apply to monsters only. BG's during mayhem are just nonsense because you rarely have any control of your character due to this stupid set.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · February 21

G0K4R wrote: »

show previous quotes

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

A solution would be to move the pull to a ground effect left at the feet of the target affected instead of allowing the pull to drag to a player

What you describe is how dark convergence works. So your solution is just to remove rush of agony?

Different proc condition, different damage effect - The aoe dmg would still emanate from the player. Only the pull effect would be ground based.

Decimus · February 21

G0K4R wrote: »

show previous quotes

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

A solution would be to move the pull to a ground effect left at the feet of the target affected instead of allowing the pull to drag to a player

What you describe is how dark convergence works. So your solution is just to remove rush of agony?

Not exactly - as long as Rush of Agony still maintains it's "rulebreaker" no CC immunity from the pull it can be used very differently in combos and has a different, arguably more difficult proc condition than Dark Convergence.

Here's how I envision it:
Gap Closer lands->AoE spawns at the location, pulls people within radius after a delay

...the ground AoE that pulls cannot magically change location, so that'd fix the issue of people being pulled from a mile away.

Ideally of course we'd just have no positional desync in the game as that is affecting far more than just sets and pulls/gap closers... it also makes it a pain to try and land things like arcanist beam (as you have to lead/predict target's movement instead of just aiming), makes you get "target is out of range" messages when on your screen you're right behind someone trying to use a melee ability etc etc.

G0K4R · February 21

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

G0K4R wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

A solution would be to move the pull to a ground effect left at the feet of the target affected instead of allowing the pull to drag to a player

What you describe is how dark convergence works. So your solution is just to remove rush of agony?

Different proc condition, different damage effect - The aoe dmg would still emanate from the player. Only the pull effect would be ground based.

Ok I misunderstood then.

If you meant it the way Decimus decribed I think it's a viable idea to fix current problems but still not ruin the set itself.

Alchimiste1 · February 21

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone. We’ve had some conversations yesterday about this discussion, the Rush of Agony set, and the more recent community concerns and reports. This also included consideration for the overall feedback since we released the set.

To give a little background, all movement-type actions and skills, including pulls, have the potential to be impacted by variables including character movement speed and position, high ping, the amount of data being sent between the server and the client, and anything that negatively impacts server and client latency (including attacks by bad actors). What this can result in with any pull-type action or skill, not just the Rush of Agony set pull, is cases where the client thinks the target is in one spot and the server thinks it’s in another. One of the reasons this has been surfacing more with Rush of Agony is due to how popular the set is – more people using the set creates more opportunities for the pull to be impacted.

We have some work in progress that aims to reduce the overall amount of data being sent back and forth between the client and server, investigations into some known crashes related to player bonuses, and additional logging that will help us better identify crash and disconnect causes.

For the Rush of Agony set, specifically, we are looking at a few options to help reduce the chances of the current issue where some player characters are getting into a bad state after being a target of the pull. One possible solution we are considering is having the pull bring the target player back to a specific location instead of to the source player. This will decrease the amount of movement-related data the client needs to send to the server, though it could still happen. This is still in discussion as a potential option and not locked in. We're also discussing options to reduce the overall frequency at which a player could be pulled by this set.

These changes require some dev and engineering work to be done and tested, so realistically we are looking at Update 46 timing at the earliest. Thank you for all the input and suggestions related to this.

might I recommended just deleting the set instead

React · February 21

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

show previous quotes

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone. We’ve had some conversations yesterday about this discussion, the Rush of Agony set, and the more recent community concerns and reports. This also included consideration for the overall feedback since we released the set.

To give a little background, all movement-type actions and skills, including pulls, have the potential to be impacted by variables including character movement speed and position, high ping, the amount of data being sent between the server and the client, and anything that negatively impacts server and client latency (including attacks by bad actors). What this can result in with any pull-type action or skill, not just the Rush of Agony set pull, is cases where the client thinks the target is in one spot and the server thinks it’s in another. One of the reasons this has been surfacing more with Rush of Agony is due to how popular the set is – more people using the set creates more opportunities for the pull to be impacted.

We have some work in progress that aims to reduce the overall amount of data being sent back and forth between the client and server, investigations into some known crashes related to player bonuses, and additional logging that will help us better identify crash and disconnect causes.

For the Rush of Agony set, specifically, we are looking at a few options to help reduce the chances of the current issue where some player characters are getting into a bad state after being a target of the pull. One possible solution we are considering is having the pull bring the target player back to a specific location instead of to the source player. This will decrease the amount of movement-related data the client needs to send to the server, though it could still happen. This is still in discussion as a potential option and not locked in. We're also discussing options to reduce the overall frequency at which a player could be pulled by this set.

These changes require some dev and engineering work to be done and tested, so realistically we are looking at Update 46 timing at the earliest. Thank you for all the input and suggestions related to this.

might I recommended just deleting the set instead

Right? Like why are we so obsessed with having a set that breaks the rules of combat that we're going to put (5+ months?) of dev time into making it so the set works better, but not actually fix the part where it doesn't grant CC immunity?

If you're fixing location desync in general, great. It's been an issue with knockbacks and pulls for years. But the immediate issue and the subject of this thread (and many other threads!) is rush itself. Make the set give CC immunity.

Avran_Sylt · February 21

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

show previous quotes

Scytex01 wrote: »

I am not sure if this caught your attention but the issue you describe is not only from Rush of Agony or other "pull" sets but also from Knockbacks and Knockups like Meteor and Templar Aedric Spear to mention some examples.
What my guild and multiple other guilds have realized as that the described behaviour only happens when the person does not break free fast enough.
Therefore I do not think changing the location of the Pull is gonna change anything to be completely honest..

Greetings Scy

Yep, you're right Scy and we're aware. Any movement-related skill (blink, leaps, charges, etc.) can be affected in unintended ways when the data being sent between the server and the client is impacted. That's why the one example mentioned wouldn't be a catch-all solution, and why we're still talking through solutions.

Point of impact would probably address RoA shade though (could visualy plant a spike too), to be doubly sure use the lowest y-axis in the case that it attempts to pull to a point in the air (EG: using Chains while starting to jump off of a ledge), fizzling if such a point is considered dangerous terrain (EG: Slaughterfish/no TP points)

ruskiii · February 21

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone. We’ve had some conversations yesterday about this discussion, the Rush of Agony set, and the more recent community concerns and reports. This also included consideration for the overall feedback since we released the set.

To give a little background, all movement-type actions and skills, including pulls, have the potential to be impacted by variables including character movement speed and position, high ping, the amount of data being sent between the server and the client, and anything that negatively impacts server and client latency (including attacks by bad actors). What this can result in with any pull-type action or skill, not just the Rush of Agony set pull, is cases where the client thinks the target is in one spot and the server thinks it’s in another. One of the reasons this has been surfacing more with Rush of Agony is due to how popular the set is – more people using the set creates more opportunities for the pull to be impacted.

We have some work in progress that aims to reduce the overall amount of data being sent back and forth between the client and server, investigations into some known crashes related to player bonuses, and additional logging that will help us better identify crash and disconnect causes.

For the Rush of Agony set, specifically, we are looking at a few options to help reduce the chances of the current issue where some player characters are getting into a bad state after being a target of the pull. One possible solution we are considering is having the pull bring the target player back to a specific location instead of to the source player. This will decrease the amount of movement-related data the client needs to send to the server, though it could still happen. This is still in discussion as a potential option and not locked in. We're also discussing options to reduce the overall frequency at which a player could be pulled by this set.

These changes require some dev and engineering work to be done and tested, so realistically we are looking at Update 46 timing at the earliest. Thank you for all the input and suggestions related to this.

Thank you and the team for taking a reasoned approach to this discussion. There are plenty of PVP players who haven't been vocal in this thread who do not want rush of agony removed from the PVP side of the game.

The idea of having it pull to a static location is good. It could solve the bugginess of the set without making it unusable, like an overly excessive cooldown would.

I don't even have the set on any of my builds right now, but the proc is blockable. I can't understand the insistence of a small vocal minority to remove every unique/interesting set from the game.

ElvenOverlord · February 21

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

show previous quotes

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

With Whitestrakes coming up I thought it would be nice to have some clarification, as to not risk being banned. This set is being commonly used in Cyrodiil to pull in odd ways, and I haven't seen an official response from ZoS. Is this a feature and acceptable use of the set, or does this enter the realm of exploiting and potential banning?

The use as being discussed in this thread will not get you banned. That said, we are taking a look at this set for some potential changes in the future.

Well, now that we finally have confirmation that the set is not bugged and is working as intended, I’ll be sure to start using it exactly as designed—pulling people from absurd distances and through solid walls, just as the devs have clarified it should function.

I’d like to apologize to everyone I’ve argued with in the forums over the past few days. In the end, we should have had this clarification much sooner from a developer to save us all the time and back-and-forth on this specific topic of wether or not this was exploiting an unintended game mechanic. Now we know it’s not a bug or an exploit by definition—but an intended mechanic. The devs confirmed the set works as designed, because otherwise it would be in violation of segment 5.2 of the TOS that was alluded to earlier on this thread. Now there’s no reason not to take full advantage of it with no risk of getting banned.

[snip]

[Edit to remove video.]

lol at the video being removed 🤣

emilyhyoyeon · February 21

ruskiii wrote: »

show previous quotes

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone. We’ve had some conversations yesterday about this discussion, the Rush of Agony set, and the more recent community concerns and reports. This also included consideration for the overall feedback since we released the set.

To give a little background, all movement-type actions and skills, including pulls, have the potential to be impacted by variables including character movement speed and position, high ping, the amount of data being sent between the server and the client, and anything that negatively impacts server and client latency (including attacks by bad actors). What this can result in with any pull-type action or skill, not just the Rush of Agony set pull, is cases where the client thinks the target is in one spot and the server thinks it’s in another. One of the reasons this has been surfacing more with Rush of Agony is due to how popular the set is – more people using the set creates more opportunities for the pull to be impacted.

We have some work in progress that aims to reduce the overall amount of data being sent back and forth between the client and server, investigations into some known crashes related to player bonuses, and additional logging that will help us better identify crash and disconnect causes.

For the Rush of Agony set, specifically, we are looking at a few options to help reduce the chances of the current issue where some player characters are getting into a bad state after being a target of the pull. One possible solution we are considering is having the pull bring the target player back to a specific location instead of to the source player. This will decrease the amount of movement-related data the client needs to send to the server, though it could still happen. This is still in discussion as a potential option and not locked in. We're also discussing options to reduce the overall frequency at which a player could be pulled by this set.

These changes require some dev and engineering work to be done and tested, so realistically we are looking at Update 46 timing at the earliest. Thank you for all the input and suggestions related to this.

I can't understand the insistence of a small vocal minority to remove every unique/interesting set from the game.

It's definitely a small vocal minority who hates RoA for sure!

Alchimiste1 · February 21

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

show previous quotes

ruskiii wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone. We’ve had some conversations yesterday about this discussion, the Rush of Agony set, and the more recent community concerns and reports. This also included consideration for the overall feedback since we released the set.

To give a little background, all movement-type actions and skills, including pulls, have the potential to be impacted by variables including character movement speed and position, high ping, the amount of data being sent between the server and the client, and anything that negatively impacts server and client latency (including attacks by bad actors). What this can result in with any pull-type action or skill, not just the Rush of Agony set pull, is cases where the client thinks the target is in one spot and the server thinks it’s in another. One of the reasons this has been surfacing more with Rush of Agony is due to how popular the set is – more people using the set creates more opportunities for the pull to be impacted.

We have some work in progress that aims to reduce the overall amount of data being sent back and forth between the client and server, investigations into some known crashes related to player bonuses, and additional logging that will help us better identify crash and disconnect causes.

For the Rush of Agony set, specifically, we are looking at a few options to help reduce the chances of the current issue where some player characters are getting into a bad state after being a target of the pull. One possible solution we are considering is having the pull bring the target player back to a specific location instead of to the source player. This will decrease the amount of movement-related data the client needs to send to the server, though it could still happen. This is still in discussion as a potential option and not locked in. We're also discussing options to reduce the overall frequency at which a player could be pulled by this set.

These changes require some dev and engineering work to be done and tested, so realistically we are looking at Update 46 timing at the earliest. Thank you for all the input and suggestions related to this.

I can't understand the insistence of a small vocal minority to remove every unique/interesting set from the game.

It's definitely a small vocal minority who hates RoA for sure!

Oh really ?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/671959/get-rid-of-rushing-agony-from-pvp-right-now-please#latest

I think this thread here would say otherwise. It has some of the highest engagement of likes of any I've seen.

Erissime · February 21

More food for balls and organized groups. Their entire show is dependable of precisely such sets - to the point in which they setup multiple "Pullers" in case one misses you the 2nd or even 3rd to get you and hold you there in their dumped aoes creating the mass-destruction they are known to create. Buged or not - ty devs for creating another helper to these groups ( not!). We could do without it methinks, especially if it stirrs so many issues all around. I understand if it takes time to fix, but why subject the people to its issues whilst in the workings? Retrieve the set until you fix it and there's that. Is that so hard to achieve?

Grimmhawk · February 22

Lag and desync aren't the main problems or the server/client read issue with RoA ,it can completely ignore LoS. I've been pulled thru doors and walls ,when I hadn't even been outside in the area to be targeted. It'll pull any viable target within the proc area ,no matter where they are standing.

ruskiii · February 22

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Oh really ?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/671959/get-rid-of-rushing-agony-from-pvp-right-now-please#latest

I think this thread here would say otherwise. It has some of the highest engagement of likes of any I've seen.

50 users on a forum dictating what is fun for the 1000s of people who "regularly" engage with pvp would indeed be a small vocal minority in the truest sense of the words.

Decimus · February 22

This might not be a popular take here on the forums, but besides the obvious positional desync issues I don't think Rush of Agony is a problematic set.

It being an outlier in the CC rule system rather than simply dealing damage or CC'ing means that it simply provides unique build options, and the somewhat limiting proc condition is what keeps it from being overtuned. Even on builds utilizing gap closers by default, you can find much better results with sets like Unleashed or Null Arca etc.

I think the reason Rush of Agony receives so much hate is because it is used by people in ball groups (typically just one person, but depends on group size) to stack people, and tends to be pretty much the only proc visible that can be blamed and criticized.

The fault here isn't Rush of Agony though, which has counterplay in the form of blocking at the right time - the real issue is what is behind the "stack set", that also allows it to do double the damage it deals for solo players: buff sets.

When you are fighting ball groups, what is not visible on your death recap is the following things: Major Force (Saxhleel), Major Courage (Spell Power Cure), Minor Force & Minor Courage (Phoenix Moth), Banner (6% direct damage & possibly Minor Berserk here), Lucent Echoes, Rallying Cry, Transmutation and the list goes on...

You are essentially fighting multiple players who are crit damage capped (41% critical damage from buff sets), crit resistance capped, sit at 10k weapon/spell damage & receiving crossheals from multiple friendly players, all of which are also buffed by the buff sets.

In fact, we should be glad ball groups haven't figured out Farstrider yet, since the person spamming that gap closer on you could also make everyone else in that ball group deal between 8-22% more critical damage on you.

Here's another hot take: I think we need more "rulebreaker" sets in the game that do something unique like Rush of Agony. It's been multiple patches now of just buff sets or sets that simply "deal damage" with various different proc conditions - sets that shape and create different playstyles are a lot of fun to build around... the only problem is that there aren't a lot of them.

Take the new upcoming monster set (Orpheon the Tactician) for example that stuns in an AoE after a delay - this could've been a really unique set if it did something like Rush of Agony & didn't give opponents CC immunity.

We also need better counters against all the buff sets, which are kind of integral part of the game at this point & likely won't ever be balanced for PvP unless something exists to counter this "meta".

I.e. if running around in a ball group with every buff set is the "Rock", we need a "Paper" to counter that - e.g. "deal X Oblivion damage for every positive effect your opponent has" or similar ideas.

Thumbless_Bot · February 22

ruskiii wrote: »

show previous quotes

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone. We’ve had some conversations yesterday about this discussion, the Rush of Agony set, and the more recent community concerns and reports. This also included consideration for the overall feedback since we released the set.

To give a little background, all movement-type actions and skills, including pulls, have the potential to be impacted by variables including character movement speed and position, high ping, the amount of data being sent between the server and the client, and anything that negatively impacts server and client latency (including attacks by bad actors). What this can result in with any pull-type action or skill, not just the Rush of Agony set pull, is cases where the client thinks the target is in one spot and the server thinks it’s in another. One of the reasons this has been surfacing more with Rush of Agony is due to how popular the set is – more people using the set creates more opportunities for the pull to be impacted.

We have some work in progress that aims to reduce the overall amount of data being sent back and forth between the client and server, investigations into some known crashes related to player bonuses, and additional logging that will help us better identify crash and disconnect causes.

For the Rush of Agony set, specifically, we are looking at a few options to help reduce the chances of the current issue where some player characters are getting into a bad state after being a target of the pull. One possible solution we are considering is having the pull bring the target player back to a specific location instead of to the source player. This will decrease the amount of movement-related data the client needs to send to the server, though it could still happen. This is still in discussion as a potential option and not locked in. We're also discussing options to reduce the overall frequency at which a player could be pulled by this set.

These changes require some dev and engineering work to be done and tested, so realistically we are looking at Update 46 timing at the earliest. Thank you for all the input and suggestions related to this.

Thank you and the team for taking a reasoned approach to this discussion. There are plenty of PVP players who haven't been vocal in this thread who do not want rush of agony removed from the PVP side of the game.

The idea of having it pull to a static location is good. It could solve the bugginess of the set without making it unusable, like an overly excessive cooldown would.

I don't even have the set on any of my builds right now, but the proc is blockable. I can't understand the insistence of a small vocal minority to remove every unique/interesting set from the game.

I think this is somewhat reasonable as well. I really hate this set, but I am one person with one perspective. I would only ask that a more clear telegraph, visual and audio, is made as part of this set. Like I have said before, Dark Con and Charm are still very effective, perhaps too effective, but they are at least manageable now. No reason roa can't be like this too I guess.

Also, more options are good, just please, zos, don't turn the game, pve or pvp, into a carnival.

Amottica · February 22

frogthroat wrote: »

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TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

https://youtu.be/pYJhLbBC6Jo

Looks like using Shade is the key to replication here. Might be it happens also during mobile fights but to successfully replicate it on demand you need the Shade.

Maybe Undo would work, too?

But this is good info to communicate to ZOS if the Shade is a key element here. I'm sure they can fix it that Rush of Agony pull is cancelled if the player teleports using Shade or Undo.

Unfortunately, or oddly, Jessica's follow-up does not seem to address this. It is not a situation of both players' movement and is intentional.

They are pulling through a wall. The fact that there is an end to that wall nearby is irrelevant because they are not even walking around it. The exploit is not the agony but the use of the shade and agony together.

Alchimiste1 · February 22

ruskiii wrote: »

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Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Oh really ?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/671959/get-rid-of-rushing-agony-from-pvp-right-now-please#latest

I think this thread here would say otherwise. It has some of the highest engagement of likes of any I've seen.

50 users on a forum dictating what is fun for the 1000s of people who "regularly" engage with pvp would indeed be a small vocal minority in the truest sense of the words.

it's called a sample size. You shouldn't compare it to the population of all eso players. You should compare it to the engagement of other controversial topics in the eso forums. It has some of the greatest consensus among forum users.

Amottica · February 22

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

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ruskiii wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Oh really ?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/671959/get-rid-of-rushing-agony-from-pvp-right-now-please#latest

I think this thread here would say otherwise. It has some of the highest engagement of likes of any I've seen.

50 users on a forum dictating what is fun for the 1000s of people who "regularly" engage with pvp would indeed be a small vocal minority in the truest sense of the words.

it's called a sample size. You shouldn't compare it to the population of all eso players. You should compare it to the engagement of other controversial topics in the eso forums. It has some of the greatest consensus among forum users.

In reality, the forums mostly consist of a vocal minority and would not be a good so-called sampling of the player base. As a result, the polls are not a good gauge but offer excellent entertainment value.

But what is being discussed here is just a discussion that has informed Zenimax of both a question if this issue is acceptable and additional information on a subject they were already reviewing. Well-thought-out and constructive feedback provides Zenimax with good information. That includes such posts in those threads with polls, so they do provide something of value.

katanagirl1 · February 22

I had to skim through a lot of this, but I didn’t see anything about adding a visual clue for the pull. At least Dark Convergence has a large aoe and the swirling black hole kind of visual effects. With Rush of Agony, suddenly you are sucked into a mass of other players and annihilated before you even know anything is happening. You can block or dodge roll out of Dark Convergence now.

ruskiii · February 22

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I had to skim through a lot of this, but I didn’t see anything about adding a visual clue for the pull. At least Dark Convergence has a large aoe and the swirling black hole kind of visual effects. With Rush of Agony, suddenly you are sucked into a mass of other players and annihilated before you even know anything is happening. You can block or dodge roll out of Dark Convergence now.

The visual cue would be the gap closer, and there is a very loud sound cue of the rush chains being deployed. Both the pull from rush and dark convergence are blockable.

For the record you still can not, and should never try, dodge rolling out of dark convergence, lest ye be doomed.