Is it fair gameplay to use use Rush of Agony to pull players long distances and through objects?

WillhelmBlack · February 18

spartaxoxo wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

But rush of agony isn't an issue, especially when played by solo players, who wants to fight against groups.

No it is not hard to kill solos using RoA, all they can do is clown unaware targets, they have zero chance of using it to punch above their weight class in an actual engagement. It is nonetheless still extremely unfun to suddenly be yanked across the battlefield because some rando far behind you off screen was wearing a set. Often through terrain.

Yes it is a problem that Rush of Agony automates the strat of ball groups. The sweatiest tryhard groups are automating their strat with a brainless proc set. Look around you, where did all the zergs go? They all quit in no small thanks to this guar turd of a set turning a hard matchup into unfun unfair cheese. It's not just "the performance" it's also this.

I haven't said anything about killing players using RoA. RoA was introduced to counter groups (it's sadly abused by ball groups), so it's actually a nice opportunity to fight many players alone. Or how are you going to fight groups when being alone?
Setting up your dueling build and fighting them 1 by 1, while all others are watching?

The problem is any set that is "designed to counter ball groups" will work for us because we will just use it for clumps of people that, position wise, act as a ball group.

Exactly. That's why I am wondering why so much hate and threads against a set, while something totally different (ball groups) is the real issue.

There can be multiple issues. ROA pulling people through walls is clearly not right

Tbf, Swarm Mother has been doing that for a decade now.

Tommy_The_Gun · February 18

Tbh. Every "proc" set that is more effective than skill (or even ultimate in some cases) is not fair. Every one knows that and especially players that are using (or even abusing) those sets... But it is always a matter of "If I won't use it, my opponents will", so it is always the same story.

This particular set in question here is not just "not fair" but also game breaking as it is pretty much "breaking the established rules" of the game regarding Crowd Control. Each Crowd Control effect provides a short period of "Crowd Control immunity". It is done to ensure that you won't be converted into bouncing ball & dragged around. Something like this happens quite often in PvE group content as mobs do not respect CC immunity. But in PvE it is done to make sure that players won't skip Dungeon Mechanics.

Rush of Agony breaks CC rules as it does not provide Crowd Control Immunity. This means that in theory, you can be chain-cc-ed and dragged around indefinitely. It is unlikely, but what is very likely is that you will be Double CC-ed (Set pull & another CC).
If you play this game just for a tiny bit of time, you may have noticed that sometimes it is impossible to break free from crowd control effects. For example, you will get feared or rooted and sometimes it is possible, and some times it is not possible to break free.

You may ask: Why ? And the answer is: Stacking CC bug. Sometimes, if you will get CC-ed by multiple CCs too fast, what will happen is that one additional CC will prevent you from performing "break free" action. I am sot sure how it happens but I would not be surprised if it has something to do with server not registering something on time etc. Anyway - the result is that you have to "wait" till CC will be over... and that pretty much means you will die no matter how tanky you are.

"The pull will not apply Crowd Control Immunity to a target."

^ That line in the description of this set has to go. No question about it. It is the bare minimum that needs to be done. But even if, then this set is still busted due to pretty much lack of telegraph.

xylena_lazarow · February 18

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Asking on the forums if its ok to use a set that's in the game.

They're asking if it's ok to use the set in a manner that intentionally causes (what looks like) unintended behavior, like pulling through terrain. This could easily fall under the category of bug exploiting, so it is a valid question.

spartaxoxo · February 18

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

With Whitestrakes coming up I thought it would be nice to have some clarification, as to not risk being banned. This set is being commonly used in Cyrodiil to pull in odd ways, and I haven't seen an official response from ZoS. Is this a feature and acceptable use of the set, or does this enter the realm of exploiting and potential banning?

The use as being discussed in this thread will not get you banned. That said, we are taking a look at this set for some potential changes in the future.

I don't agree with this ruling but I appreciate the update and transparency. I'm hoping whatever fixes you have in store will put an end to this issue.

Someone noted Swarm Mother is doing the same, hopefully that can also be added to the list.

TechMaybeHic · February 18

Kill it in pvp or have it grant CC immunity and increase its cooldown to Dark Convergences, and have the telegraph full AOE circle like Dark Con.

Personally; i prefer kill it in pvp and leave PvE to their set in peace

JustLovely · February 18

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Just hold block.

How does that advice help them counter the fear stun spam that comes immediately after the pull?

Pull doesn't happen if you're blocking.

Except it does. The set does all kinds of things it's not supposed to do, and it does them more frequently in heavy lag, which is guaranteed if you're near a ball group using the set.

JustLovely · February 18

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Pull doesn't happen if you're blocking.

And then you also have to avoid the fear stun and not simply get bombed by the ball group because you stood still blocking. Inevitably you conclude that the only "counter" to RoA is to stay very far away and never engage at all.

The topic is about rush of agony, yet you always mention ball groups. So what exactly is the issue? Ball groups? If yes, then I am with you- they ruin pvp.

But rush of agony isn't an issue, especially when played by solo players, who wants to fight against groups.

RoA is a huge issue. First, free pull sets shouldn't exist in the first place, at least not in a PvP environment. Second, RoA doesn't apply CC immunity as it should if it were held to the same standards as other sets/skills are. ....and I could go on. RoA is just toxic in PvP and plays the game for the user.

necro_the_crafter · February 18

Zenimax lack of responce to this topic means only that they dont want to respond.
They choose [remain silent] option for whatever reason.
Anyway, seems like we stuck ith this broken pice of hot garbage set for next update cycle.

If only this set was called rush of stalking blastbones...

upd.
My bad, we did get a response. Praise the divines.

Decimus · February 19

JustLovely wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Just hold block.

How does that advice help them counter the fear stun spam that comes immediately after the pull?

Pull doesn't happen if you're blocking.

Except it does. The set does all kinds of things it's not supposed to do, and it does them more frequently in heavy lag, which is guaranteed if you're near a ball group using the set.

What you're probably experiencing is lag in Cyrodiil that delays when your block registers - 99% of time the set's pull can be blocked in BGs, but you've gotta make sure to be blocking at the time the pull happens (often a good idea to just block until the damage happens anyway).

I'd like to see RoA pull to a static ground location instead to fix the problematic cases caused largely by positional desync & game not being able to keep track of where the player is. Static ground location where the gap closer lands does not change and thus isn't prone to desyncing.

The set's design is actually very fun and unique as it does something else than just "deal damage" or "stun" - allowing for different combos to work - it's just a shame game performance turns it into something else.

Turtle_Bot · February 19

Decimus wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Just hold block.

How does that advice help them counter the fear stun spam that comes immediately after the pull?

Pull doesn't happen if you're blocking.

Except it does. The set does all kinds of things it's not supposed to do, and it does them more frequently in heavy lag, which is guaranteed if you're near a ball group using the set.

What you're probably experiencing is lag in Cyrodiil that delays when your block registers - 99% of time the set's pull can be blocked in BGs, but you've gotta make sure to be blocking at the time the pull happens (often a good idea to just block until the damage happens anyway).

I'd like to see RoA pull to a static ground location instead to fix the problematic cases caused largely by positional desync & game not being able to keep track of where the player is. Static ground location where the gap closer lands does not change and thus isn't prone to desyncing.

The set's design is actually very fun and unique as it does something else than just "deal damage" or "stun" - allowing for different combos to work - it's just a shame game performance turns it into something else.

Lag definitely plays a big part of why the set is so problematic (I noticed it was much less of an issue on PTS during the tests earlier today).

Still doesn't change the fact that this set really needs to follow basic game design principles since lag will always be a thing (to some degree) and the current iteration of RoA doesn't follow those game design basics in any way.

xylena_lazarow · February 19

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Lag definitely plays a big part of why the set is so problematic

This is a good point, normal sets like Rallying Cry or MDW don't break the game every time there's lag.

Alchimiste1 · February 19

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

.

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Setting up your dueling build and fighting them 1 by 1, while all others are watching?

Have you ever actually tried to X? Yeah you do often pick them off 1 by 1, and you can do things like adapt a DK dueling build to incorporate an AoE strat like Thrive in Chaos + Talons for breaking down groups, while still winning most 1v1s. Nobody was ever winning outnumbered fights against equal or better skilled opponents in the first place. However, you might still be able to clown them unaware if you had an overpowered proc that automates the hardest part...

Here is a prime example why RoA is a good set against groups (its still the old version without the delay): https://youtu.be/zz-HMjs4_ao?si=D-I_WvG9UmjnyEQ0

If that wouldn't exist, you wouldn't be able to fight such outnumbered fights.

2 things

1) that is a group of players not a ball group which is what people have a problem with.
2) they were already so neatly stacked; you could have killed them with any other set and VD which is how people use to bomb in the past.

Edit: upon further look I actually don't even think you proc'd rush of agony lol. your tether stunned them before the ROA

1) why exactly should there be a ball group? Players here were complaining about ball groups, which are using RoA, where I fully agree. This topic was never about to kill ball groups.

2) +your edit: as mentioned above, it was still the old RoA with an instant pull. RoA procced, as soon as I jumped on them.

A deto bomber would have killed some on the flag too, but then I hadn't a chance to refrag or continue the fight, as deto bombers have only this single burst. Plus the chance of dying is incredibly higher.

I just wanted to show, how RoA is intended to use. Not "abused" by ball groups or dragging players through walls and doors.

I will admit when I’ve made a mistake. I wasn’t really paying attention to the wording and just saw the video. I see you did pull a few with old ROA.

That being said, I stick by what I said and could have done that exact same thing on a normal bomber even without det. They were really neatly stacked and you don’t even need a pull set. Just VD and a good build, doesn’t even need to be full glass cannon for that scenario.

My point was and still is: People don’t NEED ROA to kill a stack of players. It’s been done in that past.

What ROA actually does is benefit coordinated groups more than what was the original purpose of the set. And I think that IS a problem.

Regardless glad to see Gina respond and see they are looking into how the set currently works .

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · February 19

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

With Whitestrakes coming up I thought it would be nice to have some clarification, as to not risk being banned. This set is being commonly used in Cyrodiil to pull in odd ways, and I haven't seen an official response from ZoS. Is this a feature and acceptable use of the set, or does this enter the realm of exploiting and potential banning?

The use as being discussed in this thread will not get you banned. That said, we are taking a look at this set for some potential changes in the future.

Well, now that we finally have confirmation that the set is not bugged and is working as intended, I’ll be sure to start using it exactly as designed—pulling people from absurd distances and through solid walls, just as the devs have clarified it should function.

I’d like to apologize to everyone I’ve argued with in the forums over the past few days. In the end, we should have had this clarification much sooner from a developer to save us all the time and back-and-forth on this specific topic of wether or not this was exploiting an unintended game mechanic. Now we know it’s not a bug or an exploit by definition—but an intended mechanic. The devs confirmed the set works as designed, because otherwise it would be in violation of segment 5.2 of the TOS that was alluded to earlier on this thread. Now there’s no reason not to take full advantage of it with no risk of getting banned.

[snip]

[Edit to remove video.]

IIILaaLaaIII · February 19

Ditto, it's a feature! Not a bug - roll on Midyear

Wuduwasa13 · February 19

I am ADAMANTLY against nerfing, particularly things in which players have experimented with and found novel ways to use. But this set 200% needs cool-down nerf.

RealLoveBVB · February 19

Next thread incoming: "nerf silver leash"

xylena_lazarow · February 19

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Next thread incoming: "nerf silver leash"

Why? Unlike Rushing Agony, Silver Leash is fine because:

1) its cc mechanics are consistent with the rest of the game
2) single target, limited impact on the battlefield
3) must be activated on its own for high cost, no free effects

Dragonnord · February 19

We now need a set to pull walls, so once someone uses Rush of Agony and pulls players through walls, we pull the walls back to those players so it looks like nothing happened.

Rogue_Coyote · February 19

In order to get this set changed, someone needs to figure out a way to exploit pve content using it and then post a YouTube video. That's the only way changes will be made. Just like when ZoS made changes to plaguebreak. Someone used plaguebreak to combo a pile of adds and nuke a stage boss. Next day, boom set no longer procs off NPC's.
Before this person released said video, this forum was full of complaints from pvp players about Plaguebreak killing them within NPC stacks at flags or on doors, which were completely ignored.

Rogue_Coyote · February 19

Blocking is not reliable, the mechanics do not always work, and lag makes everything else a coin toss. I have been pulled and killed mid-air before reaching the player attacking, dead corpse falling at their feet. Its super fun and engaging content (not).
Biggest issue with ROA is the set pulls you from outside it's supposed radius, and ignores LoS and solid walls/doors.

RealLoveBVB · February 19

Rogue_Coyote wrote: »

Before this person released said video, this forum was full of complaints from pvp players about Plaguebreak killing them within NPC stacks at flags or on doors, which were completely ignored.

Not anymore. There were also many threads about nightblades invi cloak and they have changed that too due to that.

So it totally works right now, that a bunch of players do some complaining in the forums, instead of working with base mechanics, to make things changed.

So of course RoA will be nerfed and of course new threads will appear like "nerf nbs more, nerf coldfire, nerf oils, mimimi".

Teeba_Shei · February 19

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Next thread incoming: "nerf silver leash"

Why? Unlike Rushing Agony, Silver Leash is fine because:

1) its cc mechanics are consistent with the rest of the game
2) single target, limited impact on the battlefield
3) must be activated on its own for high cost, no free effects

You realize you have to wear the 5 piece set and use a skill to activate rush right? Its not free.

Teeba_Shei · February 19

Rogue_Coyote wrote: »

Blocking is not reliable, the mechanics do not always work, and lag makes everything else a coin toss. I have been pulled and killed mid-air before reaching the player attacking, dead corpse falling at their feet. Its super fun and engaging content (not).
Biggest issue with ROA is the set pulls you from outside it's supposed radius, and ignores LoS and solid walls/doors.

There's a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation about how this set works, so let's clear that up.

First, regarding the line-of-sight (LoS) and range checks—the game checks these once, after 0.8 seconds, when the pull chains activate. This means that if you’re within range and visible at the moment the chains start chasing you, you will get pulled, even if you break LoS or move behind walls afterward. The chains don’t "ignore" LoS or range—they simply don’t re-check these factors after that initial 0.8-second window.

Now, the bigger misunderstanding here is about blocking. The claim that lag makes blocking unreliable simply isn’t accurate. The set’s pull cannot go through a block. If you got pulled, you weren’t blocking when the chains landed—period. The issue is timing.

Blocking as the chains hit won’t work because you don’t have zero latency—no one does. The server registers your block slightly after your input. The solution is to block earlier—when you see the enemy activate the gap closer or start glowing red. This isn’t guesswork; it’s how the mechanic is designed.

Finally, as for getting pulled "mid-air," that’s exactly what should happen if you didn’t block in time. The pull animation completes regardless of your movement if you fail the timing window. It’s not broken; it’s working as intended.

If you consistently block at the right moment, you will never get pulled—lag or no lag. This isn’t about unreliable mechanics; it’s about understanding how the mechanic operates and adapting accordingly.

forum_gpt · February 19

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

With Whitestrakes coming up I thought it would be nice to have some clarification, as to not risk being banned. This set is being commonly used in Cyrodiil to pull in odd ways, and I haven't seen an official response from ZoS. Is this a feature and acceptable use of the set, or does this enter the realm of exploiting and potential banning?

The use as being discussed in this thread will not get you banned. That said, we are taking a look at this set for some potential changes in the future.

Well, now that we finally have confirmation that the set is not bugged and is working as intended, I’ll be sure to start using it exactly as designed—pulling people from absurd distances and through solid walls, just as the devs have clarified it should function.

I’d like to apologize to everyone I’ve argued with in the forums over the past few days. In the end, we should have had this clarification much sooner from a developer to save us all the time and back-and-forth on this specific topic of wether or not this was exploiting an unintended game mechanic. Now we know it’s not a bug or an exploit by definition—but an intended mechanic. The devs confirmed the set works as designed, because otherwise it would be in violation of segment 5.2 of the TOS that was alluded to earlier on this thread. Now there’s no reason not to take full advantage of it with no risk of getting banned.

[snip]

[Edit to remove video]

Amazing video! I'll definitely be trying this out since it isn’t considered an exploit—thanks for the clarification, Gina. Glad to finally have confirmation that this is working as intended. Now we can all use it freely without worrying about bans. Appreciate the insight!

Doragren · February 19

Pulling anyone inside a keep is an exploit and you will get banned for that, just a heads up.

Dojohoda · February 19

AOE pulls do not belong in PVP. Get them all out!

forum_gpt · February 19

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

With Whitestrakes coming up I thought it would be nice to have some clarification, as to not risk being banned. This set is being commonly used in Cyrodiil to pull in odd ways, and I haven't seen an official response from ZoS. Is this a feature and acceptable use of the set, or does this enter the realm of exploiting and potential banning?

The use as being discussed in this thread will not get you banned. That said, we are taking a look at this set for some potential changes in the future.

Thanks for the response, Gina, but 'the use as being discussed in this thread will not get you banned' is pretty vague. Does that mean everyone has to read the entire thread to piece together what’s acceptable and what isn’t? A more direct clarification on what is and isn’t considered an exploit would go a long way in avoiding confusion (and future forum debates).

xylena_lazarow · February 19

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

You realize you have to wear the 5 piece set and use a skill to activate rush right? Its not free.

Single bar 5pc on an extremely efficient build layout. Not double body, huge difference. Once in combat, the effect(s) are free. It is attached the already efficient bomb combo you already want to use. There is no bar slot for Rushing Agony. There is no extra button to press to activate it. Zero additional GCDs used, and it's not even just one effect attached, like the longer you try to read the damn set card, the more effects it gains, like some sort of Apocrypha horror.

spartaxoxo · February 19

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

[snip]

[Edit to remove video]

Those players outside the keep should have known they needed to press block while the enemy was inside the keep. Foolish really. /S

Tommy_The_Gun · February 19

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

[snip]

[Edit to remove video]

Damn.... that is like umm.... "NoClip" assist lol.... something like this should not be possible... And to think that a lot of cool things got nerfed cuz of this set. You were able to use NB shade teleport or Arcanist Gate in way more places... in itself it was not an issue, but it became and issue when paired with this set. Players were puling enemies back to their spawn's "safe zone" resulting in "environmental kill". So why nerf set ? It is brand new ! Can't nerf it cuz it is paid content.... So nerf skills instead ! #Genius ! /S