Get rid of Rushing Agony from PvP right NOW please

MeridiaFavorsMe · February 5

All of these arguments seem to be about ball groups and have little to nothing to do with the actual set. You shouldn't have an expectation that you are going to 1vs12 organized players. If you want to fight against a coordinated group then you are going to have to bring more players in the form of PUGS or form your own organized group.

acastanza_ESO · February 5

MincMincMinc wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

It is entirely possible to virtually never get pulled by Rush of Agony, you just have to learn the counterplay.
It can only be blocked, if you try to dodge, you will be pulled anyway.

There will be a gap closer on your position.
You now have 800 ms to block and get away from the Fear that is certain to follow. You absolutely can do this consistently.
If you don't block, you will be pulled into the bomb, if you don't move, you'll be feared. If you're pulled or feared you will die.
Both of these are avoidable.

When an organized group is running at you, you should know this is coming, be prepared to block the chains at a moments notice. A ballgroup isn't exactly a subtle telegraph.

If you die to Rush of Agony, it is because you made an avoidable mistake.
You died to lack of situational awareness (not paying attention to someone gap closing onto your position ahead of a group; stacking right on top of a bunch of other people), or a build issue (lacking self heals/damage shields/major evasion).

Now if the set should, or should not, apply it's own CC immunity is a separate issue, but the degree to which RoA gets blamed for issues that are actually caused by a lack of understanding of gameplay mechanics is unwarranted.

There are several flops on this. The set is primarily used in group bombing. The counterplay if you can even see the animation in the first place is to block it....... When a ball zerg ult dumps what is going to happen if you block? You will be hit with a cc that goes through block. So either you dont block and get pulled and stunned or you do block and get killed anyways.

The only counterplay is to either do not be in the 15m gap + 12m aoe area in the first place or use an immovable pot and sprint away. Keep in mind in 8s you will have to do this again or have made it 27m away in that time. If you do not have an immov pot the only other option is to hopefully be on a flat asset surface and do a sprint bunny hop away while blocking....which is not easy to do in 800ms for 99% of the playerbase.
Telegraph: what are good examples? Probably meteor or DC are the best examples for telegraphed nukes. Although now zos made valkyn, an inconsequential proc set, have the same animation as a nuke ultimate...... cmon design 101. The chains could be more pronounced or make the chains sound effect at the beginning of the proc. This is a greater design issue with the game where zos ran rampant with dlc proc sets and now there are 10000000 little animations that overlap and hide each other. There was no design control on releases for this stuff and now it has drastically hurt combat.

Timing: Is 800ms or 1gcd good enough? IMO it is close, but DC is 1s and meteor is about 2s. Somewhere inbetween is the sweetspot. I believe 1.2s is probably more ideal. This is at least 4-5 average human reactions which has always been somewhat fair for both sides in previous counterplay mechanics.

CC wise: the pull should apply a stun, meaning that if I get pulled I will be stuck crouched over upon landing. This also means at any point in the pull I can cc break and walk away.

Damage wise: the damage should be instantly applied to the defending party upon landing at the target location. Honestly an aoe pull is already strong enough that it doesn't need another 5 piece proc on top of itself. The current 2s delay damage was intended to offset the tooltip value..... which then didnt work because players would instinctively be panicked to escape and never get hit.....thus zos trying to solve a problem they just created in a roundabout way made the pull not apply cc immunity. So not only can you get your cake, but you get to eat it too.

Cooldown: seriously, 8s......cmon its a bomb set. At best most people only get dawnbreaker every 20s. Even acuity wardens built for ult gen have to wait 30s. Why give ball groups the most over powered tool every 8s? If this set was "designed to counter groups" like the dev note said, why is it set on a cooldown that is vastly unnecessary for solo and small teams, but enables ball group abuse?
IDK it just clearly fails on all 5 major components of its design.

"There are several flops on this". No. Everything I said is completely accurate and 100% manageable for players to do. Could there be adjustments made that would make it even easier to avoid? Sure. Do they actually need to be made to make it possible to avoid this set entirely? Absolutely not.

They could completely remove the damage from the set and it would make absolutely zero difference. Rush doesn't kill, the Fear that follows the Rush is what kills. Rush just makes it easier to stack 6 people in the fear Radius, it isn't essential.

If you "can't see the animation" of an enemy gap closing to your postion, that is an awareness issue. You were probably mindlessly zerging and stacking without situational awareness. Exactly the behavior it was the design intent of this set to counter, but the truth is you would have died to that ballgroup in that scenario RoA or no RoA, because of the bad positioning choices you made.

Also, re the cooldown, Ballgroups are absolutely not using Rush offensively every 8 seconds. Rush isn't strictly a bomb set. It is a utility pull, and can also be used defensively too and that is where the shorter cooldown can be valuable.

If we actually want to talk about sets that are "unfair"; the problem isn't Rush; it's the chain kill sets like Plague and VD that, yes, are a punishment for stacking, but mostly a punishment for mistakes someone other than you made.

SugaComa · February 5

Rush of agony should be a gap closer moving the wearer closer to the player ... When there is more than one player it should rip them apart instantly killing them

TechMaybeHic · February 5

I don't even care about the arguments on its balance or not. It's a group bombing meta that's due to change. Gone on way too long. If it's not required as ball groups say, then good. It can be changed out to mix up the gameplay a bit. Everybody happy.

Antrox41 · February 5

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I don't even care about the arguments on its balance or not. It's a group bombing meta that's due to change. Gone on way too long. If it's not required as ball groups say, then good. It can be changed out to mix up the gameplay a bit. Everybody happy.

Wishful thinking and hopium is all i sense here...

ZoS will not change it out, at most they will give it a longer CD or nerf the range.

Also saying everyone would be happy if for some reason the pull sets werent viable anymore is pretty funny. Because even before pull sets you had people moaning and complaining on the forums constantly about ball groups. No one will ever be happy at all. This is a community full of complainers about mundane things like pull sets that are easily countered and that will never change.

Alchimiste1 · February 5

Synapsis123 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

It is entirely possible to virtually never get pulled by Rush of Agony, you just have to learn the counterplay.
It can only be blocked, if you try to dodge, you will be pulled anyway.

There will be a gap closer on your position.
You now have 800 ms to block and get away from the Fear that is certain to follow. You absolutely can do this consistently.
If you don't block, you will be pulled into the bomb, if you don't move, you'll be feared. If you're pulled or feared you will die.
Both of these are avoidable.

When an organized group is running at you, you should know this is coming, be prepared to block the chains at a moments notice. A ballgroup isn't exactly a subtle telegraph.

If you die to Rush of Agony, it is because you made an avoidable mistake.
You died to lack of situational awareness (not paying attention to someone gap closing onto your position ahead of a group; stacking right on top of a bunch of other people), or a build issue (lacking self heals/damage shields/major evasion).

Now if the set should, or should not, apply it's own CC immunity is a separate issue, but the degree to which RoA gets blamed for issues that are actually caused by a lack of understanding of gameplay mechanics is unwarranted.

There are several flops on this. The set is primarily used in group bombing. The counterplay if you can even see the animation in the first place is to block it....... When a ball zerg ult dumps what is going to happen if you block? You will be hit with a cc that goes through block. So either you dont block and get pulled and stunned or you do block and get killed anyways.

The only counterplay is to either do not be in the 15m gap + 12m aoe area in the first place or use an immovable pot and sprint away. Keep in mind in 8s you will have to do this again or have made it 27m away in that time. If you do not have an immov pot the only other option is to hopefully be on a flat asset surface and do a sprint bunny hop away while blocking....which is not easy to do in 800ms for 99% of the playerbase.
Telegraph: what are good examples? Probably meteor or DC are the best examples for telegraphed nukes. Although now zos made valkyn, an inconsequential proc set, have the same animation as a nuke ultimate...... cmon design 101. The chains could be more pronounced or make the chains sound effect at the beginning of the proc. This is a greater design issue with the game where zos ran rampant with dlc proc sets and now there are 10000000 little animations that overlap and hide each other. There was no design control on releases for this stuff and now it has drastically hurt combat.

Timing: Is 800ms or 1gcd good enough? IMO it is close, but DC is 1s and meteor is about 2s. Somewhere inbetween is the sweetspot. I believe 1.2s is probably more ideal. This is at least 4-5 average human reactions which has always been somewhat fair for both sides in previous counterplay mechanics.

CC wise: the pull should apply a stun, meaning that if I get pulled I will be stuck crouched over upon landing. This also means at any point in the pull I can cc break and walk away.

Damage wise: the damage should be instantly applied to the defending party upon landing at the target location. Honestly an aoe pull is already strong enough that it doesn't need another 5 piece proc on top of itself. The current 2s delay damage was intended to offset the tooltip value..... which then didnt work because players would instinctively be panicked to escape and never get hit.....thus zos trying to solve a problem they just created in a roundabout way made the pull not apply cc immunity. So not only can you get your cake, but you get to eat it too.

Cooldown: seriously, 8s......cmon its a bomb set. At best most people only get dawnbreaker every 20s. Even acuity wardens built for ult gen have to wait 30s. Why give ball groups the most over powered tool every 8s? If this set was "designed to counter groups" like the dev note said, why is it set on a cooldown that is vastly unnecessary for solo and small teams, but enables ball group abuse?
IDK it just clearly fails on all 5 major components of its design.

How does rush matter at all in your argument? If you stand in the path of a ball group and get hit by a hard CC while they were ult dumping you were going to die anyway.

because rush forces you to block and when you block you have a severe penalty to move speed, so that ball group rushing you that is cc+ immobilize immune with 3x swift/ rapids / 3 Destro/or northerns going off is going to catch up to you. If they pick you as the prime target, you are dead.

Teeba_Shei · February 5

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

It is entirely possible to virtually never get pulled by Rush of Agony, you just have to learn the counterplay.
It can only be blocked, if you try to dodge, you will be pulled anyway.

There will be a gap closer on your position.
You now have 800 ms to block and get away from the Fear that is certain to follow. You absolutely can do this consistently.
If you don't block, you will be pulled into the bomb, if you don't move, you'll be feared. If you're pulled or feared you will die.
Both of these are avoidable.

When an organized group is running at you, you should know this is coming, be prepared to block the chains at a moments notice. A ballgroup isn't exactly a subtle telegraph.

If you die to Rush of Agony, it is because you made an avoidable mistake.
You died to lack of situational awareness (not paying attention to someone gap closing onto your position ahead of a group; stacking right on top of a bunch of other people), or a build issue (lacking self heals/damage shields/major evasion).

Now if the set should, or should not, apply it's own CC immunity is a separate issue, but the degree to which RoA gets blamed for issues that are actually caused by a lack of understanding of gameplay mechanics is unwarranted.

There are several flops on this. The set is primarily used in group bombing. The counterplay if you can even see the animation in the first place is to block it....... When a ball zerg ult dumps what is going to happen if you block? You will be hit with a cc that goes through block. So either you dont block and get pulled and stunned or you do block and get killed anyways.

The only counterplay is to either do not be in the 15m gap + 12m aoe area in the first place or use an immovable pot and sprint away. Keep in mind in 8s you will have to do this again or have made it 27m away in that time. If you do not have an immov pot the only other option is to hopefully be on a flat asset surface and do a sprint bunny hop away while blocking....which is not easy to do in 800ms for 99% of the playerbase.
Telegraph: what are good examples? Probably meteor or DC are the best examples for telegraphed nukes. Although now zos made valkyn, an inconsequential proc set, have the same animation as a nuke ultimate...... cmon design 101. The chains could be more pronounced or make the chains sound effect at the beginning of the proc. This is a greater design issue with the game where zos ran rampant with dlc proc sets and now there are 10000000 little animations that overlap and hide each other. There was no design control on releases for this stuff and now it has drastically hurt combat.

Timing: Is 800ms or 1gcd good enough? IMO it is close, but DC is 1s and meteor is about 2s. Somewhere inbetween is the sweetspot. I believe 1.2s is probably more ideal. This is at least 4-5 average human reactions which has always been somewhat fair for both sides in previous counterplay mechanics.

CC wise: the pull should apply a stun, meaning that if I get pulled I will be stuck crouched over upon landing. This also means at any point in the pull I can cc break and walk away.

Damage wise: the damage should be instantly applied to the defending party upon landing at the target location. Honestly an aoe pull is already strong enough that it doesn't need another 5 piece proc on top of itself. The current 2s delay damage was intended to offset the tooltip value..... which then didnt work because players would instinctively be panicked to escape and never get hit.....thus zos trying to solve a problem they just created in a roundabout way made the pull not apply cc immunity. So not only can you get your cake, but you get to eat it too.

Cooldown: seriously, 8s......cmon its a bomb set. At best most people only get dawnbreaker every 20s. Even acuity wardens built for ult gen have to wait 30s. Why give ball groups the most over powered tool every 8s? If this set was "designed to counter groups" like the dev note said, why is it set on a cooldown that is vastly unnecessary for solo and small teams, but enables ball group abuse?
IDK it just clearly fails on all 5 major components of its design.

How does rush matter at all in your argument? If you stand in the path of a ball group and get hit by a hard CC while they were ult dumping you were going to die anyway.

because rush forces you to block and when you block you have a severe penalty to move speed, so that ball group rushing you that is cc+ immobilize immune with 3x swift/ rapids / 3 Destro/or northerns going off is going to catch up to you. If they pick you as the prime target, you are dead.

What does that have to do with rush of agony? If you are the prime target of a ball group you are probably going to die anyway. If you aren't the prime target then you see them coming and run away/block rush. All your complaints stem from ball groups and ult dumps. Were you afk while they were running towards you glowing red? Also ball groups they are immobilize immune are going to be moving at about 170% movement speed. That means you can outrun them. The only way to activate rush is to allow them to run towards you and get within 22 meter range. What were you doing while they were running towards you? If you are getting killed as a pug by ball groups its a learn to play issue.

xylena_lazarow · February 6

Synapsis123 wrote: »

If you are the prime target of a ball group you are probably going to die anyway.

I can evade ball groups pretty effectively, until an off-screen pull from a million meters behind me yanks me through terrain into unblockable stun spam. Their movements aren't hard to read and they can't change directions as fast as I can. There was a ball group in full Azureblight before the nerf, no Rushing Agony, I kited them from BRK all the way to the Niben, because all they could do was put weak dots on me as long as I kept moving. On a DK no less.

If they had Rushing Agony, they would've killed me instantly at BRK thanks to a proc automating their strat.

acastanza_ESO · February 6

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

If you are the prime target of a ball group you are probably going to die anyway.

I can evade ball groups pretty effectively, until an off-screen pull from a million meters behind me yanks me through terrain into unblockable stun spam. Their movements aren't hard to read and they can't change directions as fast as I can. There was a ball group in full Azureblight before the nerf, no Rushing Agony, I kited them from BRK all the way to the Niben, because all they could do was put weak dots on me as long as I kept moving. On a DK no less.

If they had Rushing Agony, they would've killed me instantly at BRK thanks to a proc automating their strat.

I know the group you're talking about, and that isn't/wasn't a ballgroup, that's just a standard comms group. The fact that you're calling them a ballgroup says to me that you don't actually know what a ballgroup is.

That said, if any of them had slotted any kind of gap closer and CC they would have been able to catch and kill you, and frankly, they should have been able to. Rush of Agony wouldn't have factored into that at all. But truthfully, the idea that you think you shouldn't have been able to have be killed by a whole group of players is absolutely wild.

Teeba_Shei · February 6

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

If you are the prime target of a ball group you are probably going to die anyway.

I can evade ball groups pretty effectively, until an off-screen pull from a million meters behind me yanks me through terrain into unblockable stun spam. Their movements aren't hard to read and they can't change directions as fast as I can. There was a ball group in full Azureblight before the nerf, no Rushing Agony, I kited them from BRK all the way to the Niben, because all they could do was put weak dots on me as long as I kept moving. On a DK no less.

If they had Rushing Agony, they would've killed me instantly at BRK thanks to a proc automating their strat.

Rush doesn't pull through terrain, you can't spam stuns because you gain CC immunity, the range of rush isn't a million meters, and there were no real ball groups that ran azureblight. Can you please stop spreading misinformation? If you want to have a constructive conversation you have to engage with accurate information and genuine arguments instead of hyperbole. Misrepresenting mechanics doesn’t help anyone, and it just derails the discussion. Let’s keep it factual and productive.

acastanza_ESO · February 6

Synapsis123 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

If you are the prime target of a ball group you are probably going to die anyway.

I can evade ball groups pretty effectively, until an off-screen pull from a million meters behind me yanks me through terrain into unblockable stun spam. Their movements aren't hard to read and they can't change directions as fast as I can. There was a ball group in full Azureblight before the nerf, no Rushing Agony, I kited them from BRK all the way to the Niben, because all they could do was put weak dots on me as long as I kept moving. On a DK no less.

If they had Rushing Agony, they would've killed me instantly at BRK thanks to a proc automating their strat.

Rush doesn't pull through terrain, you can't spam stuns because you gain CC immunity, the range of rush isn't a million meters, and there were no real ball groups that ran azureblight. Can you please stop spreading misinformation? If you want to have a constructive conversation you have to engage with accurate information and genuine arguments instead of hyperbole. Misrepresenting mechanics doesn’t help anyone, and it just derails the discussion. Let’s keep it factual and productive.

Thank you.
Rush can actually pull you through terrain/obstructions, and from further than it should though. It's rare but it does happen. It's not really a rush of agony specific issue though, it's a game lag/performance issue, and any kind of chain can do the same thing in bad performance conditions.

MeridiaFavorsMe · February 6

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

If you are the prime target of a ball group you are probably going to die anyway.

I can evade ball groups pretty effectively, until an off-screen pull from a million meters behind me yanks me through terrain into unblockable stun spam. Their movements aren't hard to read and they can't change directions as fast as I can. There was a ball group in full Azureblight before the nerf, no Rushing Agony, I kited them from BRK all the way to the Niben, because all they could do was put weak dots on me as long as I kept moving. On a DK no less.

If they had Rushing Agony, they would've killed me instantly at BRK thanks to a proc automating their strat.

Rush doesn't pull through terrain, you can't spam stuns because you gain CC immunity, the range of rush isn't a million meters, and there were no real ball groups that ran azureblight. Can you please stop spreading misinformation? If you want to have a constructive conversation you have to engage with accurate information and genuine arguments instead of hyperbole. Misrepresenting mechanics doesn’t help anyone, and it just derails the discussion. Let’s keep it factual and productive.

Thank you.
Rush can actually pull you through terrain/obstructions, and from further than it should though. It's rare but it does happen. It's not really a rush of agony specific issue though, it's a game lag/performance issue, and any kind of chain can do the same thing in bad performance conditions.

It will try to pull 6 people in 12 meters. If you are at the 12 meter mark and run away while the chain is already following you then it will seem like you were pulled from further than you should've been. This is because the chain that pulls you has a travel time. If you happen to run out of LOS while the chain is traveling then it will seem like you were pulled from out of LOS. All the pull abilities already do this.

YandereGirlfriend · February 6

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

If you are the prime target of a ball group you are probably going to die anyway.

I can evade ball groups pretty effectively, until an off-screen pull from a million meters behind me yanks me through terrain into unblockable stun spam. Their movements aren't hard to read and they can't change directions as fast as I can. There was a ball group in full Azureblight before the nerf, no Rushing Agony, I kited them from BRK all the way to the Niben, because all they could do was put weak dots on me as long as I kept moving. On a DK no less.

If they had Rushing Agony, they would've killed me instantly at BRK thanks to a proc automating their strat.

Rush doesn't pull through terrain, you can't spam stuns because you gain CC immunity, the range of rush isn't a million meters, and there were no real ball groups that ran azureblight. Can you please stop spreading misinformation? If you want to have a constructive conversation you have to engage with accurate information and genuine arguments instead of hyperbole. Misrepresenting mechanics doesn’t help anyone, and it just derails the discussion. Let’s keep it factual and productive.

Thank you.
Rush can actually pull you through terrain/obstructions, and from further than it should though. It's rare but it does happen. It's not really a rush of agony specific issue though, it's a game lag/performance issue, and any kind of chain can do the same thing in bad performance conditions.

That's just basic server positional/input desync. Happens with basically anything in the game.

Hear the Meteor sound or see a DK Leap and block but still get knocked-up? You blocked on your client but the server never got the memo and it's the server that's running the game not your client. So you get knocked-up. It's very annoying but in lieu of better performance it sort of is what it is.

Pulls are just very noticeable because you get to see the hilariously long yoink of your character back to the pull origin. But it's the same situation where your client says you're out of the pull area but the server disagrees and wins the argument.

xylena_lazarow · February 6

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

I know the group you're talking about

Yeah. Mid group.

With Rushing Agony, they can automate their strat and easily kill me if I go anywhere near them.

Without Rushing Agony, they will struggle to kill me, if they can catch me at all.

StihlReign · February 6

The set is fine. It can be blocked, has a delay, and was already nerfed. Server delay causes positioning issues and ZOS is working on those in Cyro.

MincMincMinc · February 6

Synapsis123 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

It is entirely possible to virtually never get pulled by Rush of Agony, you just have to learn the counterplay.
It can only be blocked, if you try to dodge, you will be pulled anyway.

There will be a gap closer on your position.
You now have 800 ms to block and get away from the Fear that is certain to follow. You absolutely can do this consistently.
If you don't block, you will be pulled into the bomb, if you don't move, you'll be feared. If you're pulled or feared you will die.
Both of these are avoidable.

When an organized group is running at you, you should know this is coming, be prepared to block the chains at a moments notice. A ballgroup isn't exactly a subtle telegraph.

If you die to Rush of Agony, it is because you made an avoidable mistake.
You died to lack of situational awareness (not paying attention to someone gap closing onto your position ahead of a group; stacking right on top of a bunch of other people), or a build issue (lacking self heals/damage shields/major evasion).

Now if the set should, or should not, apply it's own CC immunity is a separate issue, but the degree to which RoA gets blamed for issues that are actually caused by a lack of understanding of gameplay mechanics is unwarranted.

There are several flops on this. The set is primarily used in group bombing. The counterplay if you can even see the animation in the first place is to block it....... When a ball zerg ult dumps what is going to happen if you block? You will be hit with a cc that goes through block. So either you dont block and get pulled and stunned or you do block and get killed anyways.

The only counterplay is to either do not be in the 15m gap + 12m aoe area in the first place or use an immovable pot and sprint away. Keep in mind in 8s you will have to do this again or have made it 27m away in that time. If you do not have an immov pot the only other option is to hopefully be on a flat asset surface and do a sprint bunny hop away while blocking....which is not easy to do in 800ms for 99% of the playerbase.
Telegraph: what are good examples? Probably meteor or DC are the best examples for telegraphed nukes. Although now zos made valkyn, an inconsequential proc set, have the same animation as a nuke ultimate...... cmon design 101. The chains could be more pronounced or make the chains sound effect at the beginning of the proc. This is a greater design issue with the game where zos ran rampant with dlc proc sets and now there are 10000000 little animations that overlap and hide each other. There was no design control on releases for this stuff and now it has drastically hurt combat.

Timing: Is 800ms or 1gcd good enough? IMO it is close, but DC is 1s and meteor is about 2s. Somewhere inbetween is the sweetspot. I believe 1.2s is probably more ideal. This is at least 4-5 average human reactions which has always been somewhat fair for both sides in previous counterplay mechanics.

CC wise: the pull should apply a stun, meaning that if I get pulled I will be stuck crouched over upon landing. This also means at any point in the pull I can cc break and walk away.

Damage wise: the damage should be instantly applied to the defending party upon landing at the target location. Honestly an aoe pull is already strong enough that it doesn't need another 5 piece proc on top of itself. The current 2s delay damage was intended to offset the tooltip value..... which then didnt work because players would instinctively be panicked to escape and never get hit.....thus zos trying to solve a problem they just created in a roundabout way made the pull not apply cc immunity. So not only can you get your cake, but you get to eat it too.

Cooldown: seriously, 8s......cmon its a bomb set. At best most people only get dawnbreaker every 20s. Even acuity wardens built for ult gen have to wait 30s. Why give ball groups the most over powered tool every 8s? If this set was "designed to counter groups" like the dev note said, why is it set on a cooldown that is vastly unnecessary for solo and small teams, but enables ball group abuse?
IDK it just clearly fails on all 5 major components of its design.

How does rush matter at all in your argument? If you stand in the path of a ball group and get hit by a hard CC while they were ult dumping you were going to die anyway.

Rush fails design wise on all of the fronts I pointed out regardless of ball groups or not.

Also no, being hit by a stun does not mean you die instantly, you can cc break and move unlike with the pull and charm combo which can take up to 2-3 gcds to move. Not to mention that no stuns hit you 12m away through a wall up stairs and bring you into the 5-7m aoe spam. You are stretching a bit here to claim RoA is the same as being hit by dawnbreaker

The argument of "well there is a ball group in cyrodil, so you might as well log out or stay 50m away" isn't really a great point to make. Ball groups don't get the pass where it is OK to consider them and instant death circle blackhole so zero counterplay is acceptable. Its just that this is how they have operated for years and the people just accept it now obviously.

Just to clarify I don't really have problems with rush as I almost never interact with the set 1vX. I am not going to give zos a free pass to blatantly make multiple fumbles when designing counterplay mechanics in the game.

Teeba_Shei · February 6

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

It is entirely possible to virtually never get pulled by Rush of Agony, you just have to learn the counterplay.
It can only be blocked, if you try to dodge, you will be pulled anyway.

There will be a gap closer on your position.
You now have 800 ms to block and get away from the Fear that is certain to follow. You absolutely can do this consistently.
If you don't block, you will be pulled into the bomb, if you don't move, you'll be feared. If you're pulled or feared you will die.
Both of these are avoidable.

When an organized group is running at you, you should know this is coming, be prepared to block the chains at a moments notice. A ballgroup isn't exactly a subtle telegraph.

If you die to Rush of Agony, it is because you made an avoidable mistake.
You died to lack of situational awareness (not paying attention to someone gap closing onto your position ahead of a group; stacking right on top of a bunch of other people), or a build issue (lacking self heals/damage shields/major evasion).

Now if the set should, or should not, apply it's own CC immunity is a separate issue, but the degree to which RoA gets blamed for issues that are actually caused by a lack of understanding of gameplay mechanics is unwarranted.

There are several flops on this. The set is primarily used in group bombing. The counterplay if you can even see the animation in the first place is to block it....... When a ball zerg ult dumps what is going to happen if you block? You will be hit with a cc that goes through block. So either you dont block and get pulled and stunned or you do block and get killed anyways.

The only counterplay is to either do not be in the 15m gap + 12m aoe area in the first place or use an immovable pot and sprint away. Keep in mind in 8s you will have to do this again or have made it 27m away in that time. If you do not have an immov pot the only other option is to hopefully be on a flat asset surface and do a sprint bunny hop away while blocking....which is not easy to do in 800ms for 99% of the playerbase.
Telegraph: what are good examples? Probably meteor or DC are the best examples for telegraphed nukes. Although now zos made valkyn, an inconsequential proc set, have the same animation as a nuke ultimate...... cmon design 101. The chains could be more pronounced or make the chains sound effect at the beginning of the proc. This is a greater design issue with the game where zos ran rampant with dlc proc sets and now there are 10000000 little animations that overlap and hide each other. There was no design control on releases for this stuff and now it has drastically hurt combat.

Timing: Is 800ms or 1gcd good enough? IMO it is close, but DC is 1s and meteor is about 2s. Somewhere inbetween is the sweetspot. I believe 1.2s is probably more ideal. This is at least 4-5 average human reactions which has always been somewhat fair for both sides in previous counterplay mechanics.

CC wise: the pull should apply a stun, meaning that if I get pulled I will be stuck crouched over upon landing. This also means at any point in the pull I can cc break and walk away.

Damage wise: the damage should be instantly applied to the defending party upon landing at the target location. Honestly an aoe pull is already strong enough that it doesn't need another 5 piece proc on top of itself. The current 2s delay damage was intended to offset the tooltip value..... which then didnt work because players would instinctively be panicked to escape and never get hit.....thus zos trying to solve a problem they just created in a roundabout way made the pull not apply cc immunity. So not only can you get your cake, but you get to eat it too.

Cooldown: seriously, 8s......cmon its a bomb set. At best most people only get dawnbreaker every 20s. Even acuity wardens built for ult gen have to wait 30s. Why give ball groups the most over powered tool every 8s? If this set was "designed to counter groups" like the dev note said, why is it set on a cooldown that is vastly unnecessary for solo and small teams, but enables ball group abuse?
IDK it just clearly fails on all 5 major components of its design.

How does rush matter at all in your argument? If you stand in the path of a ball group and get hit by a hard CC while they were ult dumping you were going to die anyway.

Rush fails design wise on all of the fronts I pointed out regardless of ball groups or not.

If that was true then you should provide the examples where it fails its design without invocating ball groups.

This entire conversation seems to be about ball groups and not rush.

MeridiaFavorsMe · February 6

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

I know the group you're talking about

Yeah. Mid group.

With Rushing Agony, they can automate their strat and easily kill me if I go anywhere near them.

Without Rushing Agony, they will struggle to kill me, if they can catch me at all.

Can you explain how rush "automates" their strat. I don't understand what that even means. If a ball group has set out to target and kill you then I fail to see how rush of agony enables them to kill you. Are you saying that without rush of agony you couldn't be killed by ball groups?

MincMincMinc · February 6

.

Synapsis123 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

It is entirely possible to virtually never get pulled by Rush of Agony, you just have to learn the counterplay.
It can only be blocked, if you try to dodge, you will be pulled anyway.

There will be a gap closer on your position.
You now have 800 ms to block and get away from the Fear that is certain to follow. You absolutely can do this consistently.
If you don't block, you will be pulled into the bomb, if you don't move, you'll be feared. If you're pulled or feared you will die.
Both of these are avoidable.

When an organized group is running at you, you should know this is coming, be prepared to block the chains at a moments notice. A ballgroup isn't exactly a subtle telegraph.

If you die to Rush of Agony, it is because you made an avoidable mistake.
You died to lack of situational awareness (not paying attention to someone gap closing onto your position ahead of a group; stacking right on top of a bunch of other people), or a build issue (lacking self heals/damage shields/major evasion).

Now if the set should, or should not, apply it's own CC immunity is a separate issue, but the degree to which RoA gets blamed for issues that are actually caused by a lack of understanding of gameplay mechanics is unwarranted.

There are several flops on this. The set is primarily used in group bombing. The counterplay if you can even see the animation in the first place is to block it....... When a ball zerg ult dumps what is going to happen if you block? You will be hit with a cc that goes through block. So either you dont block and get pulled and stunned or you do block and get killed anyways.

The only counterplay is to either do not be in the 15m gap + 12m aoe area in the first place or use an immovable pot and sprint away. Keep in mind in 8s you will have to do this again or have made it 27m away in that time. If you do not have an immov pot the only other option is to hopefully be on a flat asset surface and do a sprint bunny hop away while blocking....which is not easy to do in 800ms for 99% of the playerbase.
Telegraph: what are good examples? Probably meteor or DC are the best examples for telegraphed nukes. Although now zos made valkyn, an inconsequential proc set, have the same animation as a nuke ultimate...... cmon design 101. The chains could be more pronounced or make the chains sound effect at the beginning of the proc. This is a greater design issue with the game where zos ran rampant with dlc proc sets and now there are 10000000 little animations that overlap and hide each other. There was no design control on releases for this stuff and now it has drastically hurt combat.

Timing: Is 800ms or 1gcd good enough? IMO it is close, but DC is 1s and meteor is about 2s. Somewhere inbetween is the sweetspot. I believe 1.2s is probably more ideal. This is at least 4-5 average human reactions which has always been somewhat fair for both sides in previous counterplay mechanics.

CC wise: the pull should apply a stun, meaning that if I get pulled I will be stuck crouched over upon landing. This also means at any point in the pull I can cc break and walk away.

Damage wise: the damage should be instantly applied to the defending party upon landing at the target location. Honestly an aoe pull is already strong enough that it doesn't need another 5 piece proc on top of itself. The current 2s delay damage was intended to offset the tooltip value..... which then didnt work because players would instinctively be panicked to escape and never get hit.....thus zos trying to solve a problem they just created in a roundabout way made the pull not apply cc immunity. So not only can you get your cake, but you get to eat it too.

Cooldown: seriously, 8s......cmon its a bomb set. At best most people only get dawnbreaker every 20s. Even acuity wardens built for ult gen have to wait 30s. Why give ball groups the most over powered tool every 8s? If this set was "designed to counter groups" like the dev note said, why is it set on a cooldown that is vastly unnecessary for solo and small teams, but enables ball group abuse?
IDK it just clearly fails on all 5 major components of its design.

How does rush matter at all in your argument? If you stand in the path of a ball group and get hit by a hard CC while they were ult dumping you were going to die anyway.

Rush fails design wise on all of the fronts I pointed out regardless of ball groups or not.

If that was true then you should provide the examples where it fails its design without invocating ball groups.

This entire conversation seems to be about ball groups and not rush.

Did you read the post? Of the 5 points I made, only the cooldown I involved ball groups because is is the most abusable and editable part to tune for zos.

Telegraph could be a more pronounced animation and sound effect
pull delay is too short in most use cases compared to other similar counterplay mechanics
pull should stun and apply immunity when broken at any point in the pull.
The damage could entirely be removed or instant instead of requiring a weird delay and no cc immunity
The cooldown is short enough a solo player would hardly be affected by it being longer. However this is easily abusable by a group that can line up ult dumps off cooldown.

Teeba_Shei · February 6

MincMincMinc wrote: »

.

Synapsis123 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

It is entirely possible to virtually never get pulled by Rush of Agony, you just have to learn the counterplay.
It can only be blocked, if you try to dodge, you will be pulled anyway.

There will be a gap closer on your position.
You now have 800 ms to block and get away from the Fear that is certain to follow. You absolutely can do this consistently.
If you don't block, you will be pulled into the bomb, if you don't move, you'll be feared. If you're pulled or feared you will die.
Both of these are avoidable.

When an organized group is running at you, you should know this is coming, be prepared to block the chains at a moments notice. A ballgroup isn't exactly a subtle telegraph.

If you die to Rush of Agony, it is because you made an avoidable mistake.
You died to lack of situational awareness (not paying attention to someone gap closing onto your position ahead of a group; stacking right on top of a bunch of other people), or a build issue (lacking self heals/damage shields/major evasion).

Now if the set should, or should not, apply it's own CC immunity is a separate issue, but the degree to which RoA gets blamed for issues that are actually caused by a lack of understanding of gameplay mechanics is unwarranted.

There are several flops on this. The set is primarily used in group bombing. The counterplay if you can even see the animation in the first place is to block it....... When a ball zerg ult dumps what is going to happen if you block? You will be hit with a cc that goes through block. So either you dont block and get pulled and stunned or you do block and get killed anyways.

The only counterplay is to either do not be in the 15m gap + 12m aoe area in the first place or use an immovable pot and sprint away. Keep in mind in 8s you will have to do this again or have made it 27m away in that time. If you do not have an immov pot the only other option is to hopefully be on a flat asset surface and do a sprint bunny hop away while blocking....which is not easy to do in 800ms for 99% of the playerbase.
Telegraph: what are good examples? Probably meteor or DC are the best examples for telegraphed nukes. Although now zos made valkyn, an inconsequential proc set, have the same animation as a nuke ultimate...... cmon design 101. The chains could be more pronounced or make the chains sound effect at the beginning of the proc. This is a greater design issue with the game where zos ran rampant with dlc proc sets and now there are 10000000 little animations that overlap and hide each other. There was no design control on releases for this stuff and now it has drastically hurt combat.

Timing: Is 800ms or 1gcd good enough? IMO it is close, but DC is 1s and meteor is about 2s. Somewhere inbetween is the sweetspot. I believe 1.2s is probably more ideal. This is at least 4-5 average human reactions which has always been somewhat fair for both sides in previous counterplay mechanics.

CC wise: the pull should apply a stun, meaning that if I get pulled I will be stuck crouched over upon landing. This also means at any point in the pull I can cc break and walk away.

Damage wise: the damage should be instantly applied to the defending party upon landing at the target location. Honestly an aoe pull is already strong enough that it doesn't need another 5 piece proc on top of itself. The current 2s delay damage was intended to offset the tooltip value..... which then didnt work because players would instinctively be panicked to escape and never get hit.....thus zos trying to solve a problem they just created in a roundabout way made the pull not apply cc immunity. So not only can you get your cake, but you get to eat it too.

Cooldown: seriously, 8s......cmon its a bomb set. At best most people only get dawnbreaker every 20s. Even acuity wardens built for ult gen have to wait 30s. Why give ball groups the most over powered tool every 8s? If this set was "designed to counter groups" like the dev note said, why is it set on a cooldown that is vastly unnecessary for solo and small teams, but enables ball group abuse?
IDK it just clearly fails on all 5 major components of its design.

How does rush matter at all in your argument? If you stand in the path of a ball group and get hit by a hard CC while they were ult dumping you were going to die anyway.

Rush fails design wise on all of the fronts I pointed out regardless of ball groups or not.

If that was true then you should provide the examples where it fails its design without invocating ball groups.

This entire conversation seems to be about ball groups and not rush.

Did you read the post? Of the 5 points I made, only the cooldown I involved ball groups because is is the most abusable and editable part to tune for zos.
Telegraph could be a more pronounced animation and sound effect

pull delay is too short in most use cases compared to other similar counterplay mechanics

pull should stun and apply immunity when broken at any point in the pull.

The damage could entirely be removed or instant instead of requiring a weird delay and no cc immunity

The cooldown is short enough a solo player would hardly be affected by it being longer. However this is easily abusable by a group that can line up ult dumps off cooldown.

I agree that improving the telegraph with a more pronounced animation and sound effect would be a good change. They could add a sound similar to tarnished nightmare and that would address the entire issue with this set.

I disagree with the idea that the pull delay is too short—blocking is instant, so there’s already counterplay available. You also haven’t given any reasoning for why the pull should stun or why the damage should be removed/changed. As for the cooldown, you haven’t explained why it needs to be adjusted, and even if it were increased, ball groups could just stack more Rush sets to bypass it anyway. Without proper justification for these changes, they don’t seem necessary.

Avran_Sylt · February 6

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

It is entirely possible to virtually never get pulled by Rush of Agony, you just have to learn the counterplay.
It can only be blocked, if you try to dodge, you will be pulled anyway.

There will be a gap closer on your position.
You now have 800 ms to block and get away from the Fear that is certain to follow. You absolutely can do this consistently.
If you don't block, you will be pulled into the bomb, if you don't move, you'll be feared. If you're pulled or feared you will die.
Both of these are avoidable.

When an organized group is running at you, you should know this is coming, be prepared to block the chains at a moments notice. A ballgroup isn't exactly a subtle telegraph.

If you die to Rush of Agony, it is because you made an avoidable mistake.
You died to lack of situational awareness (not paying attention to someone gap closing onto your position ahead of a group; stacking right on top of a bunch of other people), or a build issue (lacking self heals/damage shields/major evasion).

Now if the set should, or should not, apply it's own CC immunity is a separate issue, but the degree to which RoA gets blamed for issues that are actually caused by a lack of understanding of gameplay mechanics is unwarranted.

Unless you actually were within the 12m range of someone else that got gap closed and didn’t notice it given you were focused on someone/something else, and get yanked by the chain over 30m out of position of allied healers and smacked because the Nightblade coupled it with Shadow Image.

I love the set in PvE for mobbing, but it has problems in PvP.

I also have issues with set design that tries to let one player nuke 50.

Give em a better one-shot on a single-target when overwhelmed (possibly problematic for 1vX allowing healer/tanks to kill and not die), but not something that scales to kill everything at once.

MeridiaFavorsMe · February 6

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

It is entirely possible to virtually never get pulled by Rush of Agony, you just have to learn the counterplay.
It can only be blocked, if you try to dodge, you will be pulled anyway.

There will be a gap closer on your position.
You now have 800 ms to block and get away from the Fear that is certain to follow. You absolutely can do this consistently.
If you don't block, you will be pulled into the bomb, if you don't move, you'll be feared. If you're pulled or feared you will die.
Both of these are avoidable.

When an organized group is running at you, you should know this is coming, be prepared to block the chains at a moments notice. A ballgroup isn't exactly a subtle telegraph.

If you die to Rush of Agony, it is because you made an avoidable mistake.
You died to lack of situational awareness (not paying attention to someone gap closing onto your position ahead of a group; stacking right on top of a bunch of other people), or a build issue (lacking self heals/damage shields/major evasion).

Now if the set should, or should not, apply it's own CC immunity is a separate issue, but the degree to which RoA gets blamed for issues that are actually caused by a lack of understanding of gameplay mechanics is unwarranted.

Unless you actually were within the 12m range of someone else that got gap closed and didn’t notice it given you were focused on someone/something else, and get yanked by the chain over 30m out of position of allied healers and smacked because the Nightblade coupled it with Shadow Image.

I love the set in PvE for mobbing, but it has problems in PvP.

I also have issues with set design that tries to let one player nuke 50.

Give em a better one-shot on a single-target when overwhelmed (possibly problematic for 1vX allowing healer/tanks to kill and not die), but not something that scales to kill everything at once.

Can we stop engaging in hyperbole and misinformation? The nightblade shadow image pull was fixed already. What you're describing is a bug and not an issue with the rush set.

As to the second part, the target cap of the set is 6 players. You can't pull 50 players at once.

MincMincMinc · February 6

Synapsis123 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

.

Synapsis123 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

It is entirely possible to virtually never get pulled by Rush of Agony, you just have to learn the counterplay.
It can only be blocked, if you try to dodge, you will be pulled anyway.

There will be a gap closer on your position.
You now have 800 ms to block and get away from the Fear that is certain to follow. You absolutely can do this consistently.
If you don't block, you will be pulled into the bomb, if you don't move, you'll be feared. If you're pulled or feared you will die.
Both of these are avoidable.

When an organized group is running at you, you should know this is coming, be prepared to block the chains at a moments notice. A ballgroup isn't exactly a subtle telegraph.

If you die to Rush of Agony, it is because you made an avoidable mistake.
You died to lack of situational awareness (not paying attention to someone gap closing onto your position ahead of a group; stacking right on top of a bunch of other people), or a build issue (lacking self heals/damage shields/major evasion).

Now if the set should, or should not, apply it's own CC immunity is a separate issue, but the degree to which RoA gets blamed for issues that are actually caused by a lack of understanding of gameplay mechanics is unwarranted.

There are several flops on this. The set is primarily used in group bombing. The counterplay if you can even see the animation in the first place is to block it....... When a ball zerg ult dumps what is going to happen if you block? You will be hit with a cc that goes through block. So either you dont block and get pulled and stunned or you do block and get killed anyways.

The only counterplay is to either do not be in the 15m gap + 12m aoe area in the first place or use an immovable pot and sprint away. Keep in mind in 8s you will have to do this again or have made it 27m away in that time. If you do not have an immov pot the only other option is to hopefully be on a flat asset surface and do a sprint bunny hop away while blocking....which is not easy to do in 800ms for 99% of the playerbase.
Telegraph: what are good examples? Probably meteor or DC are the best examples for telegraphed nukes. Although now zos made valkyn, an inconsequential proc set, have the same animation as a nuke ultimate...... cmon design 101. The chains could be more pronounced or make the chains sound effect at the beginning of the proc. This is a greater design issue with the game where zos ran rampant with dlc proc sets and now there are 10000000 little animations that overlap and hide each other. There was no design control on releases for this stuff and now it has drastically hurt combat.

Timing: Is 800ms or 1gcd good enough? IMO it is close, but DC is 1s and meteor is about 2s. Somewhere inbetween is the sweetspot. I believe 1.2s is probably more ideal. This is at least 4-5 average human reactions which has always been somewhat fair for both sides in previous counterplay mechanics.

CC wise: the pull should apply a stun, meaning that if I get pulled I will be stuck crouched over upon landing. This also means at any point in the pull I can cc break and walk away.

Damage wise: the damage should be instantly applied to the defending party upon landing at the target location. Honestly an aoe pull is already strong enough that it doesn't need another 5 piece proc on top of itself. The current 2s delay damage was intended to offset the tooltip value..... which then didnt work because players would instinctively be panicked to escape and never get hit.....thus zos trying to solve a problem they just created in a roundabout way made the pull not apply cc immunity. So not only can you get your cake, but you get to eat it too.

Cooldown: seriously, 8s......cmon its a bomb set. At best most people only get dawnbreaker every 20s. Even acuity wardens built for ult gen have to wait 30s. Why give ball groups the most over powered tool every 8s? If this set was "designed to counter groups" like the dev note said, why is it set on a cooldown that is vastly unnecessary for solo and small teams, but enables ball group abuse?
IDK it just clearly fails on all 5 major components of its design.

How does rush matter at all in your argument? If you stand in the path of a ball group and get hit by a hard CC while they were ult dumping you were going to die anyway.

Rush fails design wise on all of the fronts I pointed out regardless of ball groups or not.

If that was true then you should provide the examples where it fails its design without invocating ball groups.

This entire conversation seems to be about ball groups and not rush.

Did you read the post? Of the 5 points I made, only the cooldown I involved ball groups because is is the most abusable and editable part to tune for zos.
Telegraph could be a more pronounced animation and sound effect

pull delay is too short in most use cases compared to other similar counterplay mechanics

pull should stun and apply immunity when broken at any point in the pull.

The damage could entirely be removed or instant instead of requiring a weird delay and no cc immunity

The cooldown is short enough a solo player would hardly be affected by it being longer. However this is easily abusable by a group that can line up ult dumps off cooldown.

I agree that improving the telegraph with a more pronounced animation and sound effect would be a good change. They could add a sound similar to tarnished nightmare and that should address all the issues people should have with this set. However, I disagree with the idea that the pull delay is too short—blocking is instant, so there’s already counterplay available. You also haven’t given any reasoning for why the pull should stun or why the damage should be removed/changed. As for the cooldown, you haven’t explained why it needs to be adjusted, and even if it were increased, ball groups could just stack more Rush sets to bypass it anyway. Without proper justification for these changes, they don’t seem necessary.

Zos has a real issue with making flashy animations for non important effects, but then doing lackluster animations for something that should be very clear. Like look at meteor and valkyn.... one will obliterate your group and the other does like 2k damage but they have the same animation.
The reaction window delay is debatable. This entirely depends on the userbase and strength of the effect. Most people tend to fail to react to below 1s and just eat the effects. Old dizzy was 1.2-1.5s and people tended to react just fine to that window. Debatable this should be discussed once proper telegraphs are established.
Pulls are hard cc..... no reason this one particular pull should not give immunity? I went a step further and think the pull should also stun if you fail to cc break at any point during the pull. So in a way I am saying it should pull and stun. However you should be able to cc break at any point. If done correctly it should operate like any other stun and not feel as buggy/ clunky for the playerbase.
Damage I dont care about. I just think zos shouldn't use this as a justification to undermine the CC immunity system and make the interaction clunky when it is so easily designed in another way like instant damage.
Sure if you wanted more pulls, then you can slot more sets..... which means they have to drop other group sets to do so. It is power limitation. IMO all proc sets should have cooldowns on the receiving player but that is another conversation.

These are iterative points that zos should have worked through already but we are how many patches down the line and people are still complaining?

Avran_Sylt · February 6

FionaFlute wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

It is entirely possible to virtually never get pulled by Rush of Agony, you just have to learn the counterplay.
It can only be blocked, if you try to dodge, you will be pulled anyway.

There will be a gap closer on your position.
You now have 800 ms to block and get away from the Fear that is certain to follow. You absolutely can do this consistently.
If you don't block, you will be pulled into the bomb, if you don't move, you'll be feared. If you're pulled or feared you will die.
Both of these are avoidable.

When an organized group is running at you, you should know this is coming, be prepared to block the chains at a moments notice. A ballgroup isn't exactly a subtle telegraph.

If you die to Rush of Agony, it is because you made an avoidable mistake.
You died to lack of situational awareness (not paying attention to someone gap closing onto your position ahead of a group; stacking right on top of a bunch of other people), or a build issue (lacking self heals/damage shields/major evasion).

Now if the set should, or should not, apply it's own CC immunity is a separate issue, but the degree to which RoA gets blamed for issues that are actually caused by a lack of understanding of gameplay mechanics is unwarranted.

Unless you actually were within the 12m range of someone else that got gap closed and didn’t notice it given you were focused on someone/something else, and get yanked by the chain over 30m out of position of allied healers and smacked because the Nightblade coupled it with Shadow Image.

I love the set in PvE for mobbing, but it has problems in PvP.

I also have issues with set design that tries to let one player nuke 50.

Give em a better one-shot on a single-target when overwhelmed (possibly problematic for 1vX allowing healer/tanks to kill and not die), but not something that scales to kill everything at once.

Can we stop engaging in hyperbole and misinformation? The nightblade shadow image pull was fixed already. What you're describing is a bug and not an issue with the rush set.

As to the second part, the target cap of the set is 6 players. You can't pull 50 players at once.

Huh? when did that get fixed? I've not been on for a few days but I was able to do it last week.
Edit: yep, still works. (Although I might not be familiar with the issue you describe that you say was fixed)

Also this is more about the design of sets like Dark Convergence (which I also then assume has a cap of 6 targets to increase the damage)

Alchimiste1 · February 6

.

Synapsis123 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

It is entirely possible to virtually never get pulled by Rush of Agony, you just have to learn the counterplay.
It can only be blocked, if you try to dodge, you will be pulled anyway.

There will be a gap closer on your position.
You now have 800 ms to block and get away from the Fear that is certain to follow. You absolutely can do this consistently.
If you don't block, you will be pulled into the bomb, if you don't move, you'll be feared. If you're pulled or feared you will die.
Both of these are avoidable.

When an organized group is running at you, you should know this is coming, be prepared to block the chains at a moments notice. A ballgroup isn't exactly a subtle telegraph.

If you die to Rush of Agony, it is because you made an avoidable mistake.
You died to lack of situational awareness (not paying attention to someone gap closing onto your position ahead of a group; stacking right on top of a bunch of other people), or a build issue (lacking self heals/damage shields/major evasion).

Now if the set should, or should not, apply it's own CC immunity is a separate issue, but the degree to which RoA gets blamed for issues that are actually caused by a lack of understanding of gameplay mechanics is unwarranted.

There are several flops on this. The set is primarily used in group bombing. The counterplay if you can even see the animation in the first place is to block it....... When a ball zerg ult dumps what is going to happen if you block? You will be hit with a cc that goes through block. So either you dont block and get pulled and stunned or you do block and get killed anyways.

The only counterplay is to either do not be in the 15m gap + 12m aoe area in the first place or use an immovable pot and sprint away. Keep in mind in 8s you will have to do this again or have made it 27m away in that time. If you do not have an immov pot the only other option is to hopefully be on a flat asset surface and do a sprint bunny hop away while blocking....which is not easy to do in 800ms for 99% of the playerbase.
Telegraph: what are good examples? Probably meteor or DC are the best examples for telegraphed nukes. Although now zos made valkyn, an inconsequential proc set, have the same animation as a nuke ultimate...... cmon design 101. The chains could be more pronounced or make the chains sound effect at the beginning of the proc. This is a greater design issue with the game where zos ran rampant with dlc proc sets and now there are 10000000 little animations that overlap and hide each other. There was no design control on releases for this stuff and now it has drastically hurt combat.

Timing: Is 800ms or 1gcd good enough? IMO it is close, but DC is 1s and meteor is about 2s. Somewhere inbetween is the sweetspot. I believe 1.2s is probably more ideal. This is at least 4-5 average human reactions which has always been somewhat fair for both sides in previous counterplay mechanics.

CC wise: the pull should apply a stun, meaning that if I get pulled I will be stuck crouched over upon landing. This also means at any point in the pull I can cc break and walk away.

Damage wise: the damage should be instantly applied to the defending party upon landing at the target location. Honestly an aoe pull is already strong enough that it doesn't need another 5 piece proc on top of itself. The current 2s delay damage was intended to offset the tooltip value..... which then didnt work because players would instinctively be panicked to escape and never get hit.....thus zos trying to solve a problem they just created in a roundabout way made the pull not apply cc immunity. So not only can you get your cake, but you get to eat it too.

Cooldown: seriously, 8s......cmon its a bomb set. At best most people only get dawnbreaker every 20s. Even acuity wardens built for ult gen have to wait 30s. Why give ball groups the most over powered tool every 8s? If this set was "designed to counter groups" like the dev note said, why is it set on a cooldown that is vastly unnecessary for solo and small teams, but enables ball group abuse?
IDK it just clearly fails on all 5 major components of its design.

How does rush matter at all in your argument? If you stand in the path of a ball group and get hit by a hard CC while they were ult dumping you were going to die anyway.

because rush forces you to block and when you block you have a severe penalty to move speed, so that ball group rushing you that is cc+ immobilize immune with 3x swift/ rapids / 3 Destro/or northerns going off is going to catch up to you. If they pick you as the prime target, you are dead.

What does that have to do with rush of agony? If you are the prime target of a ball group you are probably going to die anyway. If you aren't the prime target then you see them coming and run away/block rush. All your complaints stem from ball groups and ult dumps. Were you afk while they were running towards you glowing red? Also ball groups they are immobilize immune are going to be moving at about 170% movement speed. That means you can outrun them. The only way to activate rush is to allow them to run towards you and get within 22 meter range. What were you doing while they were running towards you? If you are getting killed as a pug by ball groups its a learn to play issue.

Or you know, I wouldn't be forced to block and be slow as a snail and actually sprint away.

Alchimiste1 · February 6

you can try and spin it however you want but at the end of the day all of us know

pull sets are a problem.

Alchimiste1 · February 6

also, minc is very on point in his analysis.

at the very least, the animation of the chains should happen instantly and then the pull should happen after the delay.

Alchimiste1 · February 6

Synapsis123 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

It is entirely possible to virtually never get pulled by Rush of Agony, you just have to learn the counterplay.
It can only be blocked, if you try to dodge, you will be pulled anyway.

There will be a gap closer on your position.
You now have 800 ms to block and get away from the Fear that is certain to follow. You absolutely can do this consistently.
If you don't block, you will be pulled into the bomb, if you don't move, you'll be feared. If you're pulled or feared you will die.
Both of these are avoidable.

When an organized group is running at you, you should know this is coming, be prepared to block the chains at a moments notice. A ballgroup isn't exactly a subtle telegraph.

If you die to Rush of Agony, it is because you made an avoidable mistake.
You died to lack of situational awareness (not paying attention to someone gap closing onto your position ahead of a group; stacking right on top of a bunch of other people), or a build issue (lacking self heals/damage shields/major evasion).

Now if the set should, or should not, apply it's own CC immunity is a separate issue, but the degree to which RoA gets blamed for issues that are actually caused by a lack of understanding of gameplay mechanics is unwarranted.

There are several flops on this. The set is primarily used in group bombing. The counterplay if you can even see the animation in the first place is to block it....... When a ball zerg ult dumps what is going to happen if you block? You will be hit with a cc that goes through block. So either you dont block and get pulled and stunned or you do block and get killed anyways.

The only counterplay is to either do not be in the 15m gap + 12m aoe area in the first place or use an immovable pot and sprint away. Keep in mind in 8s you will have to do this again or have made it 27m away in that time. If you do not have an immov pot the only other option is to hopefully be on a flat asset surface and do a sprint bunny hop away while blocking....which is not easy to do in 800ms for 99% of the playerbase.
Telegraph: what are good examples? Probably meteor or DC are the best examples for telegraphed nukes. Although now zos made valkyn, an inconsequential proc set, have the same animation as a nuke ultimate...... cmon design 101. The chains could be more pronounced or make the chains sound effect at the beginning of the proc. This is a greater design issue with the game where zos ran rampant with dlc proc sets and now there are 10000000 little animations that overlap and hide each other. There was no design control on releases for this stuff and now it has drastically hurt combat.

Timing: Is 800ms or 1gcd good enough? IMO it is close, but DC is 1s and meteor is about 2s. Somewhere inbetween is the sweetspot. I believe 1.2s is probably more ideal. This is at least 4-5 average human reactions which has always been somewhat fair for both sides in previous counterplay mechanics.

CC wise: the pull should apply a stun, meaning that if I get pulled I will be stuck crouched over upon landing. This also means at any point in the pull I can cc break and walk away.

Damage wise: the damage should be instantly applied to the defending party upon landing at the target location. Honestly an aoe pull is already strong enough that it doesn't need another 5 piece proc on top of itself. The current 2s delay damage was intended to offset the tooltip value..... which then didnt work because players would instinctively be panicked to escape and never get hit.....thus zos trying to solve a problem they just created in a roundabout way made the pull not apply cc immunity. So not only can you get your cake, but you get to eat it too.

Cooldown: seriously, 8s......cmon its a bomb set. At best most people only get dawnbreaker every 20s. Even acuity wardens built for ult gen have to wait 30s. Why give ball groups the most over powered tool every 8s? If this set was "designed to counter groups" like the dev note said, why is it set on a cooldown that is vastly unnecessary for solo and small teams, but enables ball group abuse?
IDK it just clearly fails on all 5 major components of its design.

How does rush matter at all in your argument? If you stand in the path of a ball group and get hit by a hard CC while they were ult dumping you were going to die anyway.

Rush fails design wise on all of the fronts I pointed out regardless of ball groups or not.

If that was true then you should provide the examples where it fails its design without invocating ball groups.

This entire conversation seems to be about ball groups and not rush.

How about in order to stop players from being ping ponged around if there are multiple people using it. It should be a hard cc.
Ball groups were killing players long before pull sets were a thing. The good ones will be killing players even after a nerf.

Avran_Sylt · February 6

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

you can try and spin it however you want but at the end of the day all of us know

pull sets are a problem.

Rush of Agony not adhering to pull CC standards is a problem (and pulls in general acting weird when introducing teleports).

But I wouldn't necessarily call pull sets a problem, as they dive into the utility aspect of pulls: positioning opponents.

Though I do agree with you and Minc that its telegraph is lacking. Def concur with the chains going out immediately , then pulling after the duration. (it would also look even flashier and cooler too for PvE pulling and give more clarity on what is actually getting pulled (as of right now, it only throws out the chains AoE after the duration, no calculation done when the set triggers initially)).

DaniimalsSF · February 6

RoA is avoidable, but it’s also unnecessarily annoying. It’s not a needed mechanic, it’s run by too many people, it takes no skill, and did I mention it’s just annoying.

Also grouping should have diminishing returns on power scaling, not exponential. This is a core issue in PvP.