Get rid of Rushing Agony from PvP right NOW please

Soraka · February 4

Yeah honestly, getting pulled from out of LoS because of it being a buggy mess makes it much more difficult to deal with unlike DC. CC immunity only solves part of the issue. There is no counter play to randomly getting pulled from behind walls or when you're not even close to the fight. DC you can learn to block etc. RoA you can learn to block...when the set isn't breaking its own rules.

Zallion · February 5

Reworking to having its range not bugged, range reduced, los not bugged, target cap (closest 4-6 enemies maybe?), and cooldown extended to a minimum of 20 seconds, it would potentially be worth not deleting. Anything short of all of those changes tho leaves it massively op as it always has been. It’s main issues is it’s utilization by ball groups, who will and do abuse this set to the fullest extent and will continue to do so until it is changed or a better alternative comes along. If it won’t be reworked it should be removed or monsters only, the community has been saying it for a while now..

Turtle_Bot · February 5

With still no changes to RoA (and seemingly none to be made this patch), I would like to point out there has been a thread made where the devs want to hear feedback from players regarding the top 5 bugs and top 5 pain points they have with the game that they would like to see addressed.

Thread Link:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/672718/dev-team-request-a-top-5-list-of-bugs-and-pain-points-you-would-like-addressed/p1

I would suggest to (politely) add your voice to that thread, listing out the main pain points (which can include Rush of Agony). Additionally, including some details as to why it is such an important pain point in a spoiler can also help, such as the fact it ignores the inherent game rules surrounding crowd control, the numerous bugs allowing it to ignore line of sight, range cap, the crazy high damage it's proc has, the obnoxiously low cooldown, etc, etc.

Another thing that would help, is to go through that thread and hit the "Agree" option for the other posts listing Rush of Agony as a pain point so the devs can see that it's more than just a few players that have issues with this set.

StaticWave · February 5

Rush of Agony and Dark Convergence were designed to kill large groups, yet ironically are best used by organized large groups lol.

Nathanbreakfast · February 5

Rush of Agony needs to go. There's nothing fun about or engaging about playing with or against it. Its beyond a gimmick. If this sets exists you might as well make sets that blind other players by turning off their vision without warning, like a flashbang grenade.

MincMincMinc · February 5

StaticWave wrote: »

Rush of Agony and Dark Convergence were designed to kill large groups, yet ironically are best used by organized large groups lol.

Meanwhile I am not allowed to have old fury or seventh legion to fight large groups, I have to deal with all these terrible stack and cooldown sets. Meanwhile a ball group can stack every buff in the game and 40khp/s of hots while running sets like rallying that are 100% uptime of 2x 5piece bonuses..... something just aint right.

It reminds me of the old sloads and bleed metas. Zos tried to design something that killed tanky players.... but they were just as effective against non tanky players lol.

There's only a few truly anti group mechanics in the game now. Half of which can be abused by large groups and are not tailored for being outnumbered.

Thumbless_Bot · February 5

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

With still no changes to RoA (and seemingly none to be made this patch), I would like to point out there has been a thread made where the devs want to hear feedback from players regarding the top 5 bugs and top 5 pain points they have with the game that they would like to see addressed.

Thread Link:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/672718/dev-team-request-a-top-5-list-of-bugs-and-pain-points-you-would-like-addressed/p1

I would suggest to (politely) add your voice to that thread, listing out the main pain points (which can include Rush of Agony). Additionally, including some details as to why it is such an important pain point in a spoiler can also help, such as the fact it ignores the inherent game rules surrounding crowd control, the numerous bugs allowing it to ignore line of sight, range cap, the crazy high damage it's proc has, the obnoxiously low cooldown, etc, etc.

Another thing that would help, is to go through that thread and hit the "Agree" option for the other posts listing Rush of Agony as a pain point so the devs can see that it's more than just a few players that have issues with this set.

Agree. You can even search through each page to find either roa or rush of agony by string. I put both strings in my post where I mentioned it both as a pain point and bug because it is both.

necro_the_crafter · February 5

Yea, only noone runs it with dawnbreaker. Nobody runs it for solo play. Its used only for ult dumps on zergs by the ballgroups.

Just stating that you expect "a lot of power of this set" is basicly admitting that you are okay with some things to be unbalanced, and we as players cant really aprecciate that. I understand that perfect balance cant exist in a videogame, even chess is imbalanced (white's first move advantage), and i could understand if RoA op pull were just an u31 thing to sell the chapter, but this set continue to plague cyrodiil to this time despite playerbase outcry, which is just builds upon playerbase frustrastion.

And on topic of balance, its a fact of change that matters most of the time, not even changes themselves.
Meta have to develop, people that engage PvP need to be in a constant state of adaptation for PvP to remain healthy and competetive.

Itemisation in this game with collections and transmute is trivial now, and take little to no time to swap your build, as well as respecs being availiable at any time in an amout limited only to your ingame gold, but for the last two years meta hasnt shifted much thus all of above systems are redundant for PvP perspective. Which makes PvP pretty much boring.

From a perspective of big time MOBA player, frerequent changes, sometimes uncalled for, sometimes minor, sometimes big, helps to keep old game fresh and create a new perspectives on PvP combat and how to engage it.

Also, ESO lacks any role model for PvP, and i think this part needs most of the work now.

Pull without cc would be okay if it was avaliable only to a tank that himself isnt threatening offensivly.
Strong group hots would be fine if they were only avaliable to a healers that cant deal much of a damage.
DoT stacking would be okay if it was avaliable for only one class that has class DoT abilities, and doesnt have much of a burst on top.

BUT right now you can do all of the above on a character that is optimised for dealing damage, while healing himself, and have a utility of AoE CC, roots, pulls. AND you can also get in a group to stack all of the above. AND if you can coordinate, you make this games PvP unfun and frustrating for everybody else that isnt in the same group.

MincMincMinc · February 5

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Gotta love how they ignore their own design faults. "We felt it necessary to have no cc immunity because the timed damage was dodgeable"..... yeah thats called counterplay. This notion that just because a player slots a proc set, they should be 100% effective and uncoutnerable is ridiculous in a pvp environment. In pve that fine, because mobs are on the receiving end.... but you are just railroading the player on the receiving end. Imagine the set essentially reads "when procced immediately kill all enemy players nearby 2 seconds after being pulled" Oh well people seem to be trying to react and avoid a guaranteed death..... I know, lets just make it so they can't. Why bother playing the game if the outcome is already decided for you.

This is a fundamental flaw we see with zos's combat team over and over. Counterplay back and forth is the most fundamental part of combat. You need a clear push and pull game happening between players. They play rock, I play paper, they play scissors, I play rock. They cc me, I break, they root me, I roll, they snare me, I use immunity.

RoA should be designed as such. There should be a clear chain telegraph 1-2s prior to being pulled which signals you should block to counter. CC immunity should be applied during the pull. You will be stunned at the final location if you do not break while being pulled. Then its debatable whether there should be a damage proc, but the damage should be an AoE that hits such that the farthest target would be in range.(probably works out to the tick going off 0.5s after the pull)........ This is clear combat. You saw the chain and failed to counter it, thus you are punished by being pulled and hit with the damage. I played rock and after 1-2s you decided to not play paper, thus you get hit.

The damage is arguable whether it should even be there. I think it is fine so long as it aligns with other aoe stun skills for damage. Probably close to being hit with streak....... which at that point, why bother having it do damage and ticking the server unnecessarily. If anything the damage should only apply to the players who were pulled instead of doing a second aoe check on the server. (this is where we get to the vengeance performance design of skills and sets, before we continue to bloat the server down with overdesigned sets and skills)

Savagejack · February 5

Rush of Agony can go play in traffic. Awful set. Please destroy

StaticWave · February 5

MincMincMinc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Rush of Agony and Dark Convergence were designed to kill large groups, yet ironically are best used by organized large groups lol.

Meanwhile I am not allowed to have old fury or seventh legion to fight large groups, I have to deal with all these terrible stack and cooldown sets. Meanwhile a ball group can stack every buff in the game and 40khp/s of hots while running sets like rallying that are 100% uptime of 2x 5piece bonuses..... something just aint right.

It reminds me of the old sloads and bleed metas. Zos tried to design something that killed tanky players.... but they were just as effective against non tanky players lol.

There's only a few truly anti group mechanics in the game now. Half of which can be abused by large groups and are not tailored for being outnumbered.

Fury and old 7th Legion nerfs were uncalled for. Yes, both sets were extremely strong and would most likely still be meta today if left alone, but the power of those sets could only be leveraged by mechanically good players. Not only that, but those sets did not work well in organized groups because their proc condition aren’t in the user’s control. Groups preferred sets like Clever Alchemist for better control over their ult bombs.

Yet ZOS decided to nerf those sets and buff the very sets that would empower ball groups even further lol. Whatever method they’re doing to test combat balance changes during internal testing, it ain’t working.

TechMaybeHic · February 5

My favorite meta was 7th fury or ravager plar. Miss those days

Major_Mangle · February 5

The 7th/Fury meta was overperforming though, it had the same issue as some of the current overtuned stat sets we´ve. While it didn´t hard carry your offensive capacities too much (even though it kinda did) it for sure took care of the defensive side of things by taking your healing through the roof. I remember DK´s sitting at 8k+ vigor ticks with 5 digit cautherize heals as almost a "default" value. Having sets giving too much in terms of stats is just as unhealthy as too much free dmg from procs (and status effects etc).

Anyway, pull sets are bad for PvP and should be removed or severely limited with how impactful they´re. Being able to create a "chokepoint" at more or less any given time is just too good.

xylena_lazarow · February 5

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The 7th/Fury meta was overperforming though

Ah yes the meta of turn-based PvP (where half of everyone was a Warden). Wear 7th/Fury, hold block for 7 minutes, take turns dropping wombo combo, repeat. Personally I found this meta to be a painfully slow paced tank meta with low build diversity, low agency, and low skill ceiling, but that is just my opinion. I think it sounds similar to Vengeance, and notice that the players that enjoyed that meta seem to overlap a lot with the crowd optimistic about Vengeance.

So anyway I think there can be a balance between that and the insanity of Rushing Agony. The first step towards getting there is to get Rush of Agony out of PvP, especially Battlegrounds right now. Monsters Only would do it.

Alchimiste1 · February 5

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The 7th/Fury meta was overperforming though, it had the same issue as some of the current overtuned stat sets we´ve. While it didn´t hard carry your offensive capacities too much (even though it kinda did) it for sure took care of the defensive side of things by taking your healing through the roof. I remember DK´s sitting at 8k+ vigor ticks with 5 digit cautherize heals as almost a "default" value. Having sets giving too much in terms of stats is just as unhealthy as too much free dmg from procs (and status effects etc).

Anyway, pull sets are bad for PvP and should be removed or severely limited with how impactful they´re. Being able to create a "chokepoint" at more or less any given time is just too good.

bad opinion
Bring back 7th and fury

MincMincMinc · February 5

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The 7th/Fury meta was overperforming though

Ah yes the meta of turn-based PvP (where half of everyone was a Warden). Wear 7th/Fury, hold block for 7 minutes, take turns dropping wombo combo, repeat. Personally I found this meta to be a painfully slow paced tank meta with low build diversity, low agency, and low skill ceiling, but that is just my opinion. I think it sounds similar to Vengeance, and notice that the players that enjoyed that meta seem to overlap a lot with the crowd optimistic about Vengeance.

So anyway I think there can be a balance between that and the insanity of Rushing Agony. The first step towards getting there is to get Rush of Agony out of PvP, especially Battlegrounds right now. Monsters Only would do it.

You point out the exact perfect design that was intended and worked with those sets. They were only strong while you were outnumbered being attacked. Actual good players would prevent enemies from stacking fully and burst when not stacked. There were plenty of stronger dueling setups back then for 1v1s. Those long drawn out duels were typically because players came out of solo OW gameplay and slid into duels with the same build.

As much as you may oppose the sets, they are only as strong as the user and nothing more. Unlike rush or similar sets like tarnished which will always be inherently strong or useful. You never saw zergs or ball groups running 7th fury because they simply didnt work. Solo players could capitalize on this and get 500-700wd compared to ballgroups stacking these newer sets that give each group member 5+ 5piece bonuses/buffs(5x300wd= 1500wd).

StaticWave · February 5

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The 7th/Fury meta was overperforming though, it had the same issue as some of the current overtuned stat sets we´ve. While it didn´t hard carry your offensive capacities too much (even though it kinda did) it for sure took care of the defensive side of things by taking your healing through the roof. I remember DK´s sitting at 8k+ vigor ticks with 5 digit cautherize heals as almost a "default" value. Having sets giving too much in terms of stats is just as unhealthy as too much free dmg from procs (and status effects etc).

Anyway, pull sets are bad for PvP and should be removed or severely limited with how impactful they´re. Being able to create a "chokepoint" at more or less any given time is just too good.

Respectfully, I disagree. Fury required you to constantly take damage as it could only proc via receiving critical hits, and 7th Legion required you to also constantly take dmg due to its 10% proc chance.

You’d need to be severely outnumbered or, at the very least, fighting a 1v4 to reliably proc those sets. Only mechanically good players can survive and 1vX consistently to leverage them. During that meta I frequently ran into casual players copying the Fury + 7th build from popular YouTubers, but they could never pose the same threat as they are posing in today’s meta. Back then, a casual player sitting inside a zerg would almost never proc 7th Legion or reach max Fury stacks. Now, you can put 2-3 procs on a complete casual and still give him the potential to ruin your day just from the sheer amount of free damage lol.

MincMincMinc · February 5

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The 7th/Fury meta was overperforming though, it had the same issue as some of the current overtuned stat sets we´ve. While it didn´t hard carry your offensive capacities too much (even though it kinda did) it for sure took care of the defensive side of things by taking your healing through the roof. I remember DK´s sitting at 8k+ vigor ticks with 5 digit cautherize heals as almost a "default" value. Having sets giving too much in terms of stats is just as unhealthy as too much free dmg from procs (and status effects etc).

Anyway, pull sets are bad for PvP and should be removed or severely limited with how impactful they´re. Being able to create a "chokepoint" at more or less any given time is just too good.

bad opinion
Bring back 7th and fury

What we really need to do is revert the elsweyr weapon changes. S&B frontbar builds anyone? Reverb, ransack bash weaving? Dizzy knockup and actual damage?

What about the onslaught that returned ultimate and resists instead of the terrible half baked corrosive copy. Imagine having something unique for a unique playstyle?

acastanza_ESO · February 5

It is entirely possible to virtually never get pulled by Rush of Agony, you just have to learn the counterplay.
It can only be blocked, if you try to dodge, you will be pulled anyway.

There will be a gap closer on your position.
You now have 800 ms to block and get away from the Fear that is certain to follow. You absolutely can do this consistently.
If you don't block, you will be pulled into the bomb, if you don't move, you'll be feared. If you're pulled or feared you will die.
Both of these are avoidable.

When an organized group is running at you, you should know this is coming, be prepared to block the chains at a moments notice. A ballgroup isn't exactly a subtle telegraph.

If you die to Rush of Agony, it is because you made an avoidable mistake.
You died to lack of situational awareness (not paying attention to someone gap closing onto your position ahead of a group; stacking right on top of a bunch of other people), or a build issue (lacking self heals/damage shields/major evasion).

Now if the set should, or should not, apply it's own CC immunity is a separate issue, but the degree to which RoA gets blamed for issues that are actually caused by a lack of understanding of gameplay mechanics is unwarranted.

YandereGirlfriend · February 5

Zallion wrote: »

Reworking to having its range not bugged, range reduced, los not bugged, target cap (closest 4-6 enemies maybe?), and cooldown extended to a minimum of 20 seconds, it would potentially be worth not deleting. Anything short of all of those changes tho leaves it massively op as it always has been. It’s main issues is it’s utilization by ball groups, who will and do abuse this set to the fullest extent and will continue to do so until it is changed or a better alternative comes along. If it won’t be reworked it should be removed or monsters only, the community has been saying it for a while now..

It actually has a target of 6.

Antrox41 · February 5

While I agree this set is buggy af and honestly 70% of the time it barely pulls anything, not to even mention its completely and utterly useless on an significant slope. I feel like a lot of the complainers here still have no idea how to block through it, and while yes its hard to notice its dumb range its also not that hard to notice a group running full speed towards you with proxies. Seems like part of the people complaining about any of the pull sets are ones always getting pulled constantly. Is it a skill issue?

With Dark Convergence people moaned about it being broken when it was released, now its literally one of the easiest sets to block through, infact I rarely find myself ever getting pulled by DC anymore. Not to mention it got its range butchered and got a delay for its explosion damage. The same thing happened with ROA, literally got a delay for the AOE pull. ROA used to be pretty cracked without the delayed pull, now its a gamble whether or not it does anything half the time.

What ROA really needs is a larger timer at least 30-60 seconds between pulling with its AOE.

MJallday · February 5

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

It is entirely possible to virtually never get pulled by Rush of Agony, you just have to learn the counterplay.
It can only be blocked, if you try to dodge, you will be pulled anyway.

There will be a gap closer on your position.
You now have 800 ms to block and get away from the Fear that is certain to follow. You absolutely can do this consistently.
If you don't block, you will be pulled into the bomb, if you don't move, you'll be feared. If you're pulled or feared you will die.
Both of these are avoidable.

When an organized group is running at you, you should know this is coming, be prepared to block the chains at a moments notice. A ballgroup isn't exactly a subtle telegraph.

If you die to Rush of Agony, it is because you made an avoidable mistake.
You died to lack of situational awareness (not paying attention to someone gap closing onto your position ahead of a group; stacking right on top of a bunch of other people), or a build issue (lacking self heals/damage shields/major evasion).

Now if the set should, or should not, apply it's own CC immunity is a separate issue, but the degree to which RoA gets blamed for issues that are actually caused by a lack of understanding of gameplay mechanics is unwarranted.

And what do you do in those 800ms whilst there’s 3 others in the same ball group doing the same thing whilst 4 others power overload you/exe you, whilst simultaneously , stunning you and drop colossuses/flawless db?

This set is the reason why PvP is broken at the moment.

ZOS - the community doesn’t often call for nerfs - but there’s an absolutely need in this case

YandereGirlfriend · February 5

MJallday wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

It is entirely possible to virtually never get pulled by Rush of Agony, you just have to learn the counterplay.
It can only be blocked, if you try to dodge, you will be pulled anyway.

There will be a gap closer on your position.
You now have 800 ms to block and get away from the Fear that is certain to follow. You absolutely can do this consistently.
If you don't block, you will be pulled into the bomb, if you don't move, you'll be feared. If you're pulled or feared you will die.
Both of these are avoidable.

When an organized group is running at you, you should know this is coming, be prepared to block the chains at a moments notice. A ballgroup isn't exactly a subtle telegraph.

If you die to Rush of Agony, it is because you made an avoidable mistake.
You died to lack of situational awareness (not paying attention to someone gap closing onto your position ahead of a group; stacking right on top of a bunch of other people), or a build issue (lacking self heals/damage shields/major evasion).

Now if the set should, or should not, apply it's own CC immunity is a separate issue, but the degree to which RoA gets blamed for issues that are actually caused by a lack of understanding of gameplay mechanics is unwarranted.

And what do you do in those 800ms whilst there’s 3 others in the same ball group doing the same thing whilst 4 others power overload you/exe you, whilst simultaneously , stunning you and drop colossuses/flawless db?

This set is the reason why PvP is broken at the moment.

ZOS - the community doesn’t often call for nerfs - but there’s an absolutely need in this case

You aren't fighting an actual ballgroup if there's multiple people in the raid using Rush or if they are also using single-target skills like Power Overload. That sounds like some of the zerg guilds that have been slowly adopting it to help them Xv1.

acastanza_ESO · February 5

MJallday wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

It is entirely possible to virtually never get pulled by Rush of Agony, you just have to learn the counterplay.
It can only be blocked, if you try to dodge, you will be pulled anyway.

There will be a gap closer on your position.
You now have 800 ms to block and get away from the Fear that is certain to follow. You absolutely can do this consistently.
If you don't block, you will be pulled into the bomb, if you don't move, you'll be feared. If you're pulled or feared you will die.
Both of these are avoidable.

When an organized group is running at you, you should know this is coming, be prepared to block the chains at a moments notice. A ballgroup isn't exactly a subtle telegraph.

If you die to Rush of Agony, it is because you made an avoidable mistake.
You died to lack of situational awareness (not paying attention to someone gap closing onto your position ahead of a group; stacking right on top of a bunch of other people), or a build issue (lacking self heals/damage shields/major evasion).

Now if the set should, or should not, apply it's own CC immunity is a separate issue, but the degree to which RoA gets blamed for issues that are actually caused by a lack of understanding of gameplay mechanics is unwarranted.

And what do you do in those 800ms whilst there’s 3 others in the same ball group doing the same thing whilst 4 others power overload you/exe you, whilst simultaneously , stunning you and drop colossuses/flawless db?

This set is the reason why PvP is broken at the moment.

ZOS - the community doesn’t often call for nerfs - but there’s an absolutely need in this case

Ballgroups only run one maybe two pulls, and the damage is focused on the raid lead. You should be moving away as soon as you think there's a gap closer. You have to block for literally one second (less once you get good at predicting it). Block, drink an Immovability potion, and leave that area. It is entirely doable. Dawnbreaker has a tiny range, Colo is stationary. All of it will be on the pull point. Awareness of the area you're fighting in will also help you learn to predict where that pull is going to be so you can avoid even needing to do any of this in the first place. Avoid masses of your squishy "allies" stacking together without buffs or situational awareness, avoid choke points. No one in a ballgroup runs Power Overload or any other kind of serious single target damage, it's all AOE and designed to be burst on the pull.

Sometimes, if you're particularly annoying to them, they will damage dump to focus you down solo. In a 12v1 you should expect to die, but that's the case ballgroup or no ballgroup, RoA or no RoA, it would be crazy if you didn't.

I can avoid it, I do avoid it, you can learn to avoid it too, all it takes is practice.

Teeba_Shei · February 5

MJallday wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

It is entirely possible to virtually never get pulled by Rush of Agony, you just have to learn the counterplay.
It can only be blocked, if you try to dodge, you will be pulled anyway.

There will be a gap closer on your position.
You now have 800 ms to block and get away from the Fear that is certain to follow. You absolutely can do this consistently.
If you don't block, you will be pulled into the bomb, if you don't move, you'll be feared. If you're pulled or feared you will die.
Both of these are avoidable.

When an organized group is running at you, you should know this is coming, be prepared to block the chains at a moments notice. A ballgroup isn't exactly a subtle telegraph.

If you die to Rush of Agony, it is because you made an avoidable mistake.
You died to lack of situational awareness (not paying attention to someone gap closing onto your position ahead of a group; stacking right on top of a bunch of other people), or a build issue (lacking self heals/damage shields/major evasion).

Now if the set should, or should not, apply it's own CC immunity is a separate issue, but the degree to which RoA gets blamed for issues that are actually caused by a lack of understanding of gameplay mechanics is unwarranted.

And what do you do in those 800ms whilst there’s 3 others in the same ball group doing the same thing whilst 4 others power overload you/exe you, whilst simultaneously , stunning you and drop colossuses/flawless db?

This set is the reason why PvP is broken at the moment.

ZOS - the community doesn’t often call for nerfs - but there’s an absolutely need in this case

Seems like your issue is 12 people running you down and not rush of agony. You were going to die regardless of rush if 12 people all dropped their ultimate's on you. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

xylena_lazarow · February 5

MincMincMinc wrote: »

they are only as strong as the user and nothing more.

You can also say that about the Vatesh Destro proc, which is fair and easily countered by good players.

Rushing Agony is brainless to use, while taking relatively far too much skill and awareness to counter it.

Most of the targets for Rush of Agony are casual zergers who do not have these skills. It is ridiculous to demand such skill from them for the sake of a proc set that automates ball group strats (and ball groups don't like RoA either).

Teeba_Shei · February 5

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

they are only as strong as the user and nothing more.

You can also say that about the Vatesh Destro proc, which is fair and easily countered by good players.

Rushing Agony is brainless to use, while taking relatively far too much skill and awareness to counter it.

Most of the targets for Rush of Agony are casual zergers who do not have these skills. It is ridiculous to demand such skill from them for the sake of a proc set that automates ball group strats (and ball groups don't like RoA either).

The set is perfectly counterable. So your argument is that people are so bad that they can't block so the set should be nerfed? If a player doesn't have the awareness to block this set they were going to die anyway.

Antrox41 · February 5

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

they are only as strong as the user and nothing more.

You can also say that about the Vatesh Destro proc, which is fair and easily countered by good players.

Rushing Agony is brainless to use, while taking relatively far too much skill and awareness to counter it.

Most of the targets for Rush of Agony are casual zergers who do not have these skills. It is ridiculous to demand such skill from them for the sake of a proc set that automates ball group strats (and ball groups don't like RoA either).

I find it funny that some people think without pull sets ball groups would be useless. Ball groups were still reigning down hell even before pull sets and will continue even after. Does ROA make it easier? Yes. Is it broken like you claim? Nope not even, I still believe in some circumstances its a skill issue with people being pulled by this set. Does that mean its balanced? Nah, i still think it needs a long CD because 8 seconds is just stupid, and thats about it. It already has a 2 second delay.

MincMincMinc · February 5

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

It is entirely possible to virtually never get pulled by Rush of Agony, you just have to learn the counterplay.
It can only be blocked, if you try to dodge, you will be pulled anyway.

There will be a gap closer on your position.
You now have 800 ms to block and get away from the Fear that is certain to follow. You absolutely can do this consistently.
If you don't block, you will be pulled into the bomb, if you don't move, you'll be feared. If you're pulled or feared you will die.
Both of these are avoidable.

When an organized group is running at you, you should know this is coming, be prepared to block the chains at a moments notice. A ballgroup isn't exactly a subtle telegraph.

If you die to Rush of Agony, it is because you made an avoidable mistake.
You died to lack of situational awareness (not paying attention to someone gap closing onto your position ahead of a group; stacking right on top of a bunch of other people), or a build issue (lacking self heals/damage shields/major evasion).

Now if the set should, or should not, apply it's own CC immunity is a separate issue, but the degree to which RoA gets blamed for issues that are actually caused by a lack of understanding of gameplay mechanics is unwarranted.

There are several flops on this. The set is primarily used in group bombing. The counterplay if you can even see the animation in the first place is to block it....... When a ball zerg ult dumps what is going to happen if you block? You will be hit with a cc that goes through block. So either you dont block and get pulled and stunned or you do block and get killed anyways.

The only counterplay is to either do not be in the 15m gap + 12m aoe area in the first place or use an immovable pot and sprint away. Keep in mind in 8s you will have to do this again or have made it 27m away in that time. If you do not have an immov pot the only other option is to hopefully be on a flat asset surface and do a sprint bunny hop away while blocking....which is not easy to do in 800ms for 99% of the playerbase.

Telegraph: what are good examples? Probably meteor or DC are the best examples for telegraphed nukes. Although now zos made valkyn, an inconsequential proc set, have the same animation as a nuke ultimate...... cmon design 101. The chains could be more pronounced or make the chains sound effect at the beginning of the proc. This is a greater design issue with the game where zos ran rampant with dlc proc sets and now there are 10000000 little animations that overlap and hide each other. There was no design control on releases for this stuff and now it has drastically hurt combat.

Timing: Is 800ms or 1gcd good enough? IMO it is close, but DC is 1s and meteor is about 2s. Somewhere inbetween is the sweetspot. I believe 1.2s is probably more ideal. This is at least 4-5 average human reactions which has always been somewhat fair for both sides in previous counterplay mechanics.

CC wise: the pull should apply a stun, meaning that if I get pulled I will be stuck crouched over upon landing. This also means at any point in the pull I can cc break and walk away.

Damage wise: the damage should be instantly applied to the defending party upon landing at the target location. Honestly an aoe pull is already strong enough that it doesn't need another 5 piece proc on top of itself. The current 2s delay damage was intended to offset the tooltip value..... which then didnt work because players would instinctively be panicked to escape and never get hit.....thus zos trying to solve a problem they just created in a roundabout way made the pull not apply cc immunity. So not only can you get your cake, but you get to eat it too.

Cooldown: seriously, 8s......cmon its a bomb set. At best most people only get dawnbreaker every 20s. Even acuity wardens built for ult gen have to wait 30s. Why give ball groups the most over powered tool every 8s? If this set was "designed to counter groups" like the dev note said, why is it set on a cooldown that is vastly unnecessary for solo and small teams, but enables ball group abuse?

IDK it just clearly fails on all 5 major components of its design.

Teeba_Shei · February 5

MincMincMinc wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

It is entirely possible to virtually never get pulled by Rush of Agony, you just have to learn the counterplay.
It can only be blocked, if you try to dodge, you will be pulled anyway.

There will be a gap closer on your position.
You now have 800 ms to block and get away from the Fear that is certain to follow. You absolutely can do this consistently.
If you don't block, you will be pulled into the bomb, if you don't move, you'll be feared. If you're pulled or feared you will die.
Both of these are avoidable.

When an organized group is running at you, you should know this is coming, be prepared to block the chains at a moments notice. A ballgroup isn't exactly a subtle telegraph.

If you die to Rush of Agony, it is because you made an avoidable mistake.
You died to lack of situational awareness (not paying attention to someone gap closing onto your position ahead of a group; stacking right on top of a bunch of other people), or a build issue (lacking self heals/damage shields/major evasion).

Now if the set should, or should not, apply it's own CC immunity is a separate issue, but the degree to which RoA gets blamed for issues that are actually caused by a lack of understanding of gameplay mechanics is unwarranted.

There are several flops on this. The set is primarily used in group bombing. The counterplay if you can even see the animation in the first place is to block it....... When a ball zerg ult dumps what is going to happen if you block? You will be hit with a cc that goes through block. So either you dont block and get pulled and stunned or you do block and get killed anyways.

The only counterplay is to either do not be in the 15m gap + 12m aoe area in the first place or use an immovable pot and sprint away. Keep in mind in 8s you will have to do this again or have made it 27m away in that time. If you do not have an immov pot the only other option is to hopefully be on a flat asset surface and do a sprint bunny hop away while blocking....which is not easy to do in 800ms for 99% of the playerbase.
Telegraph: what are good examples? Probably meteor or DC are the best examples for telegraphed nukes. Although now zos made valkyn, an inconsequential proc set, have the same animation as a nuke ultimate...... cmon design 101. The chains could be more pronounced or make the chains sound effect at the beginning of the proc. This is a greater design issue with the game where zos ran rampant with dlc proc sets and now there are 10000000 little animations that overlap and hide each other. There was no design control on releases for this stuff and now it has drastically hurt combat.

Timing: Is 800ms or 1gcd good enough? IMO it is close, but DC is 1s and meteor is about 2s. Somewhere inbetween is the sweetspot. I believe 1.2s is probably more ideal. This is at least 4-5 average human reactions which has always been somewhat fair for both sides in previous counterplay mechanics.

CC wise: the pull should apply a stun, meaning that if I get pulled I will be stuck crouched over upon landing. This also means at any point in the pull I can cc break and walk away.

Damage wise: the damage should be instantly applied to the defending party upon landing at the target location. Honestly an aoe pull is already strong enough that it doesn't need another 5 piece proc on top of itself. The current 2s delay damage was intended to offset the tooltip value..... which then didnt work because players would instinctively be panicked to escape and never get hit.....thus zos trying to solve a problem they just created in a roundabout way made the pull not apply cc immunity. So not only can you get your cake, but you get to eat it too.

Cooldown: seriously, 8s......cmon its a bomb set. At best most people only get dawnbreaker every 20s. Even acuity wardens built for ult gen have to wait 30s. Why give ball groups the most over powered tool every 8s? If this set was "designed to counter groups" like the dev note said, why is it set on a cooldown that is vastly unnecessary for solo and small teams, but enables ball group abuse?
IDK it just clearly fails on all 5 major components of its design.

How does rush matter at all in your argument? If you stand in the path of a ball group and get hit by a hard CC while they were ult dumping you were going to die anyway.