Get rid of Rushing Agony from PvP right NOW please

Jestir

I see that the set has 2 main issues, that it doesn't apply cc immunity and has a very quick cool down.

The first is absolutely unacceptable, it goes against one of the basic concepts of this games pvp.

The second is also an issue as similar sets with an aoe pull have a noticeably longer cooldown, like void bash at 13 seconds. and dark convergence at a whopping 25 seconds, and probably should be at least 13 seconds if not more due to having a damaging mechanic attached (although obviously no where near enough to warrant a cool down as long as dark convergence).

Any issues with say pulling people at different levels vertically seem more like fundamental issues with how aoes function made worse with a delayed pull then with the particular set itself and I doubt that will ever change

CrazyKitty

ioResult wrote: »

What I find most interesting is the optics around the ZOS devs here.

A thread was started on nerfing Azureblight - a set which was detrimental to ball groups - and nearly instantly we see it nerfed in a PTS update.

However, THIS set is beneficial to ball groups, has been a topic of disgust for moths by the vast majority of people who don't run in ball groups ruining everyone else's game play, and has been a thread here for nearly a month but we see nothing about this set being nerfed in any PTS patch and we're already nearing the end of all the changes going into this patch.

This is exactly why notions that all devs suck at PvP and run only in ball groups in Cyrodiil flourish.

This is exactly why sentiment that the ZOS devs don't listen to the player community flourish.

This is exactly why long time PvPers have cancelled their ESO Plus subscriptions and/or left the game completely.

No one but a tiny minority in ESO PvP actually want RoA and DC sets in the game and the rest want them either nerfed to affect only monsters or taken out of the game completely.

Yet we hear nothing. Crickets.

Bad Optics ZOS. Bad Optics which only reinforce the skepticism that you care about the player base or PyP at all.

The literally ONLY thing you're doing regarding PvP is testing changes with the goal of making ball groups cause less lag, because we all know their play style is what causes the lag in Cyrodiil.

Go into a 3x pop locked campaign and there is little to no lag unless a bunch of zerglings are concentrated in one area spamming multi-effect AoEs just like ball groups do ALL THE TIME.

So the optics are that ZOS still only cares about enabling their ball group buddies and might as well just admit their only Cyrodiil experience is to act trolly and run in ball groups.

That ZOS is what you're saying to the PvP community by not even commenting on this thread in any meaningful way let alone doing what 99% of your PvP user base wants - which is to see a PTS release which at least has RoA affecting monsters only.

Nailed it!

This is why so many of us get an uneasy feeling to our core when thinking about the template only Cyrodiil. It's ZOS not trying to fix what we know is causing issues with the game system they currently have and going in a totally different direction instead. Why? Why hasn't ZOS tried limiting heal and shield stacking before going in a totally different direction?

xylena_lazarow

No offense intended, but there's a serious undercurrent of "anything that survives us is broken and should be nerfed" and "we should be table to wipe any size zerg" from the organized comp group crowd. So pardon me if I think those category of defenses about RoA are more than a little bad-faith. It's the exact same category of illigitimate defenses as those made about HoT stacking.

Wiping zergs is very much an issue with situational awareness, just like killing comp groups.

For the record, I was also vocally against the Azureblight nerf as well.

Alchimiste1

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

What’s funny to me personally is seasoned 1vXers and small scalers in this thread like @MincMincMinc and @Alchimiste1 are being called “lacking situational awareness” because they think RoA is broken. Keep in mind, these guys are SEASONED and have A LOT more awareness than your average player and also deal with RoA A LOT more. If RoA is that problematic for seasoned players to deal with, then I can’t imagine your average player being yanked around into a full group bomb, not knowing how they died.

No offense intended, but there's a serious undercurrent of "anything that kills me is broken and should be nerfed" and "I should be table to solo tank any group" from the 1vX crowd. So pardon me if I think those category of complaints about RoA are more than a little bad-faith. It's the exact same category of illigitimate complaint as those made about Azureblight.

Dying to RoA is very much an issue with situational awareness, just like Azureblight.

For the record, I was also vocally against the Azureblight nerf as well.

No solo/1vX player has ever said that. You are just making things up. It just happens that a lot of the solo or small scale players have good game mechanics/ knowledge of the game and are able to easily point out over performing or unbalanced sets/skills. Honestly for a while plenty of people on the pts would point out such sets on pts on DAY ONE and the changes would still go through.

Crimson Twilight
Maras balm
DC( remember pelican posting 30k damage clip 1st day of pts and it still went live )
Rush
Etc
Etc

All these sets were labeled problematic on pts but they still got through. Was that because the testers had some bias from dying to them ? No, it’s simple because testers knew they would be unbalanced.

xFocused

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

What’s funny to me personally is seasoned 1vXers and small scalers in this thread like @MincMincMinc and @Alchimiste1 are being called “lacking situational awareness” because they think RoA is broken. Keep in mind, these guys are SEASONED and have A LOT more awareness than your average player and also deal with RoA A LOT more. If RoA is that problematic for seasoned players to deal with, then I can’t imagine your average player being yanked around into a full group bomb, not knowing how they died.

No offense intended, but there's a serious undercurrent of "anything that kills me is broken and should be nerfed" and "I should be table to solo tank any group" from the 1vX crowd. So pardon me if I think those category of complaints about RoA are more than a little bad-faith. It's the exact same category of illigitimate complaint as those made about Azureblight.

Dying to RoA is very much an issue with situational awareness, just like Azureblight.

For the record, I was also vocally against the Azureblight nerf as well.

No solo/1vX player has ever said that. You are just making things up. It just happens that a lot of the solo or small scale players have good game mechanics/ knowledge of the game and are able to easily point out over performing or unbalanced sets/skills. Honestly for a while plenty of people on the pts would point out such sets on pts on DAY ONE and the changes would still go through.

Crimson oath
Maras balm
DC( remember pelican posting 30k damage clip 1st day of pts and it still went live )
Rush
Etc
Etc

All these sets were labeled problematic on pts but they still got through. Was that because the testers had some bias from dying to them ? No, it’s simple because testers knew they would be unbalanced.

This. You’re not going to see the BG’s and smaller comped groups complain about RoA because that’s how they are able to wipe zergs. If ZOS doesn’t want to make RoA less OP than what it currently is or apply the CC immunity that others have stated here then there needs to be a counter set to Rush and the groups that stack it. Snake in the Stars was supposed to be that but it got killed immediately on the PTS and now it’s useless

Joy_Division

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

What’s funny to me personally is seasoned 1vXers and small scalers in this thread like @MincMincMinc and @Alchimiste1 are being called “lacking situational awareness” because they think RoA is broken. Keep in mind, these guys are SEASONED and have A LOT more awareness than your average player and also deal with RoA A LOT more. If RoA is that problematic for seasoned players to deal with, then I can’t imagine your average player being yanked around into a full group bomb, not knowing how they died.

No offense intended, but there's a serious undercurrent of "anything that kills me is broken and should be nerfed" and "I should be table to solo tank any group" from the 1vX crowd. So pardon me if I think those category of complaints about RoA are more than a little bad-faith. It's the exact same category of illigitimate complaint as those made about Azureblight.

Dying to RoA is very much an issue with situational awareness, just like Azureblight.

For the record, I was also vocally against the Azureblight nerf as well.

Nah.

1vXers hardly have a monopoly on complaining when they die and it's not like they are lone wolves complaining about RoA.

The sitatuonal awareness demanded by RoA is far and beyond the situational awareness of every other set and class ability in the game, certainly more than pre- nerf Azureblight (which 1vXers did not complain about bc/ by definition, 1vXing did not place the player in any danger from the set)

xylena_lazarow

Joy_Division wrote: »

The sitatuonal awareness demanded by RoA

Using RoA: zero additional awareness required, it automates what you're already doing

Defending against RoA: must identify the organized group, read their movements, stay more than 22m away unless you're planning on dropping an immovable pot, react to unexpected pulls from far behind you off screen, avoid certain conventional LoS tactics like jumping down a ledge because RoA can pull you diagonally ignoring the corner of the ledge...

Savagejack

Rush of Lagony sucks. Please add a proc that pulls this set into a dumpster fire.

silky_soft

Still no set balance in this patch. Looks like we still going to be pulled up or down from ledges and through objects.

TechMaybeHic

silky_soft wrote: »

Still no set balance in this patch. Looks like we still going to be pulled up or down from ledges and through objects.

All the more reason to be concerned by the Vengeance campaign. Less and less balancing each patch. I mean, why balance what you're going to discard anyway?

xFocused

There's a current emp group on the PS5 NA server abusing this set nonstop, just pointless to try and login and play against it in it's current state. Not sure if Zos has any plans to adjust the set at all or just keep ignoring it but I know myself and others haven't bothered with PvP in the last couple of weeks because how it's literally being spammed all over the place. I'll stick with PvE until the next update and see how it goes

StaticWave

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Dying to RoA is very much an issue with situational awareness, just like Azureblight.

1vXers have some of the best situational awareness in the game, with the best ones having even more awareness than your average ball groups (1 pair of eyes vs 12 pairs and still pulling off difficult 1v6s or 1v7s), yet almost none of them think RoA is balanced.

What are you gonna do about a NB user proccing RoA from stealth? If you’ve ever been ganked by a Tarnished + Anthelmir NB you’d probably know that the proc animations only appear after you’ve taken damage. RoA works the same way. Just yesterday I was doing a 1v4 and some NB ambushed me from stealth with RoA, yanked me towards his character , then Soul Tethered and I died. I only knew I was pulled when my character got yanked randomly into a Soul Tether stun lol. No amount of situational awareness can compensate for that.

necro_the_crafter

When VD was introduced - it was a nice way to counter stacking.
This set saw little to no adjusment becase its balnced all around and a nice tool to level the field when situation is right.
It was supposed to deny enemy faction a keep or resourse that they decided to take with numbers alone. You simply cannot stack uder a flag to take a keep since VD introduction.
That means that you now have to FIGHT defendants to have a safe way of taking a keep a resourse witch is a good thing. Everything that promotes fighting action in PvP is great.

However when you can forcefully boil down every encounter to PULL+BOMB - you have a circus that is ESO's current PvP.
Being able to force-stack peoople (on 8 sec cooldown without cc immunity and with poor telegraph), and forcefully enable VD (that have two scesific proc conditions - kill a player, and have another player in 5m radius to take damage from the blast) is cursed and have to go.

StaticWave

Look at this clip for example:

https://youtu.be/9fdzoRCqowk

That NB literally APPEARED OUT OF THIN AIR. I never saw it coming because there was no visible animation of a gap closer from him so nobody would have expected him to be using RoA. At first I thought he was just gonna Incap the teammate behind me so I didn’t hold block, but a short moment later RoA procced and pulled me into a Soul Tether burst and I died from the Vicious Death proc (the other teammate died proccing it).

Not only that, the chain animation from RoA was way too quick and not visible enough for me to have noticed it, especially during that fight when I was focusing on the dude in the corner. It's not like DC or Meteor where there's a huge circle on the ground or under your feet and the delay timer ticks while the animation plays out. With RoA, the delay timer ticks FIRST, then the animation plays out. This basically means by the time you do notice the chains shooting towards you, it’s already too late to block. Most of the time you don’t even know whether the opponent has RoA or not either lol. Even if you assumed he did have RoA, then he could just as easily hide his Ambush animation by Cloaking and appear out of thin air like in the video lol.

xylena_lazarow

10.3.4 update: Rush of Agony still bugged and overperforming, still no adjustments

SaffronCitrusflower

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RoA and HoT stacking have been so obvious bad mechanics for so long, it is absolutely mind-boggling they both have allowed to persist patch after patch, year after year. Anyone who cared about the game would have attempted to address these a long time ago.

This is why Cyro is dead. Vengeance isn't gonna bring it back. Sure the HoT stacking is a complicated problem to solve, but deleting Rushing Agony is relatively not complicated, and would immediately bring players back.

This is one of the main reasons I feel like ZOS is all in on the template only PvP. Instead of tweaking and trying to fix the game they have, they're creating a new one. With all the negative feedback about RoA and heal/shield stacking being totally ignored ZOS just goes in a totally different direction. I guess though, in the long run it will mean no RoA in PvP, so we'll get what we want on that level. Problem is they will be throwing away the best PvP ever created instead of fixing it.

SaffronCitrusflower

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

What’s funny to me personally is seasoned 1vXers and small scalers in this thread like @MincMincMinc and @Alchimiste1 are being called “lacking situational awareness” because they think RoA is broken. Keep in mind, these guys are SEASONED and have A LOT more awareness than your average player and also deal with RoA A LOT more. If RoA is that problematic for seasoned players to deal with, then I can’t imagine your average player being yanked around into a full group bomb, not knowing how they died.

No offense intended, but there's a serious undercurrent of "anything that kills me is broken and should be nerfed" and "I should be table to solo tank any group" from the 1vX crowd. So pardon me if I think those category of complaints about RoA are more than a little bad-faith. It's the exact same category of illigitimate complaint as those made about Azureblight.

Dying to RoA is very much an issue with situational awareness, just like Azureblight.

For the record, I was also vocally against the Azureblight nerf as well.

The only undercurrent and bad faith I see are people making excuses for a set that plays the game for them.

SaffronCitrusflower

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

Still no set balance in this patch. Looks like we still going to be pulled up or down from ledges and through objects.

All the more reason to be concerned by the Vengeance campaign. Less and less balancing each patch. I mean, why balance what you're going to discard anyway?

Yep.

xylena_lazarow

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

The only undercurrent and bad faith I see are people making excuses for a set that plays the game for them.

Had this argument with one of the comp group guys in zone chat. He did acknowledge that his group doesn't need Rushing Agony, but he thinks that players "should" have developed enough skill to counter it.

So I told him that pugs find it unfun and it makes them quit PvP, and asked who he's gonna farm when all the pugs are gone. Doors? NPCs? Seeing as how we were in zone chat because the server was empty and no PvP was going on...

Argument over, we agreeably moved to new topics. Might as well chat until when/if players log on.

xFocused

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

The only undercurrent and bad faith I see are people making excuses for a set that plays the game for them.

Had this argument with one of the comp group guys in zone chat. He did acknowledge that his group doesn't need Rushing Agony, but he thinks that players "should" have developed enough skill to counter it.

So I told him that pugs find it unfun and it makes them quit PvP, and asked who he's gonna farm when all the pugs are gone. Doors? NPCs? Seeing as how we were in zone chat because the server was empty and no PvP was going on...

Argument over, we agreeably moved to new topics. Might as well chat until when/if players log on.

I look at it like if they don’t need it then why use it and stack it on 1-3 people in those groups? They absolutely do need it because it’s broken, the counter to it is broken and it’s so much harder to counter than dark con.

StaticWave

xFocused wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

The only undercurrent and bad faith I see are people making excuses for a set that plays the game for them.

Had this argument with one of the comp group guys in zone chat. He did acknowledge that his group doesn't need Rushing Agony, but he thinks that players "should" have developed enough skill to counter it.

So I told him that pugs find it unfun and it makes them quit PvP, and asked who he's gonna farm when all the pugs are gone. Doors? NPCs? Seeing as how we were in zone chat because the server was empty and no PvP was going on...

Argument over, we agreeably moved to new topics. Might as well chat until when/if players log on.

I look at it like if they don’t need it then why use it and stack it on 1-3 people in those groups? They absolutely do need it because it’s broken, the counter to it is broken and it’s so much harder to counter than dark con.

They technically don’t need it, but RoA reduces the work required to set up a proper ult bomb so much that not using it would be throwing.

To set up a proper bomb, a non-RoA group would have to bait the zerg, lure them towards a choke point, then hope that they’re all stacked up for the bomb to be efficient. During that same window, a RoA group would’ve dunked on that zerg 3-4 times lol.

The fact that RoA can create a pseudo “choke point” and force the zerg to stack up (by pulling them) without giving CC immunity, AND also deal AoE damage is huge. Nothing in the game does that rn imo. RoA is in a league of its own.

Kartalin

StaticWave wrote: »

They technically don’t need it, but RoA reduces the work required to set up a proper ult bomb so much that not using it would be throwing.

To set up a proper bomb, a non-RoA group would have to bait the zerg, lure them towards a choke point, then hope that they’re all stacked up for the bomb to be efficient. During that same window, a RoA group would’ve dunked on that zerg 3-4 times lol.

The fact that RoA can create a pseudo “choke point” and force the zerg to stack up (by pulling them) without giving CC immunity, AND also deal AoE damage is huge. Nothing in the game does that rn imo. RoA is in a league of its own.

Yep, all this. In my experience in organized group play you either use the cheese or get dunked on by the cheese. We all know the cheese is stinky but refuse to play at a disadvantage in spite of that. See also: bat swarm meta, bashcro meta, harmony meta, etc, etc, etc.

YandereGirlfriend

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

The only undercurrent and bad faith I see are people making excuses for a set that plays the game for them.

Had this argument with one of the comp group guys in zone chat. He did acknowledge that his group doesn't need Rushing Agony, but he thinks that players "should" have developed enough skill to counter it.

So I told him that pugs find it unfun and it makes them quit PvP, and asked who he's gonna farm when all the pugs are gone. Doors? NPCs? Seeing as how we were in zone chat because the server was empty and no PvP was going on...

Argument over, we agreeably moved to new topics. Might as well chat until when/if players log on.

Most pugs just want to low-effort Xv1 and win with numbers. Which is not a playstyle that we should be overly concerned with catering to.

There are some pretty reasonable takes in this thread but also a fair bit of ill-informed histrionics.

The broadly satisfactory middle ground for this is likely something on the order of:

1. Greatly improve visual/audio telegraph
2. Fix LOS/height behavior (though this is likely just a symptom of positional desync and overall bad game performance)
3. Strip the damage proc

And then simply clone the Dark Convergence mechanic of:

If successfully blocked -> pull does nothing
Else -> pull and automatically stun (which then invokes traditional CC immunity -> meaning no repeat pulls from multiple wearers)

Viola.

The set now has better counterplay opportunity, deals zero damage, and no longer allows the annoying behavior of repeated "ping-pong" pulls (as well as being pulled from ledges, corners, etc.) from multiple wearers. It also preserves a clearly differentiated use case vs. Dark Convergence, where each set has distinct relative strengths and weaknesses. And is much more balanced vs. other potential options like Void Bash and the Scribing pull.

acastanza_ESO

StaticWave wrote: »

Look at this clip for example:

https://youtu.be/9fdzoRCqowk

That NB literally APPEARED OUT OF THIN AIR. I never saw it coming because there was no visible animation of a gap closer from him so nobody would have expected him to be using RoA. At first I thought he was just gonna Incap the teammate behind me so I didn’t hold block, but a short moment later RoA procced and pulled me into a Soul Tether burst and I died from the Vicious Death proc (the other teammate died proccing it).

Not only that, the chain animation from RoA was way too quick and not visible enough for me to have noticed it, especially during that fight when I was focusing on the dude in the corner. It's not like DC or Meteor where there's a huge circle on the ground or under your feet and the delay timer ticks while the animation plays out. With RoA, the delay timer ticks FIRST, then the animation plays out. This basically means by the time you do notice the chains shooting towards you, it’s already too late to block. Most of the time you don’t even know whether the opponent has RoA or not either lol. Even if you assumed he did have RoA, then he could just as easily hide his Ambush animation by Cloaking and appear out of thin air like in the video lol.

That clip isn't quite as compelling as you think, yes you got pulled but you're tunnelvisioning on a single low health opponent while fighting near an ally that doesn't seem to know how to heal themself or properly react to a NB (before the pull at all). If that teammate had reacted properly to being gap closed to and having their health chunked (way more than it should've been if they were built or buffed properly) then they wouldn't have died and they wouldn't have killed you. Yes RoA pulled you into the VD, but any other pull would've done the same, it isn't a RoA issue. Poor positioning, tunnel vision, and a poor ally VDing you is what cased this, not RoA. Mistkes were made, no one should have died in this clip.

Edit: also you absolutely can see the NB appear at the end of their gap closer right at the bottom of the frame (right before you charge your camera headfirst into a wall)

MincMincMinc

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Look at this clip for example:

https://youtu.be/9fdzoRCqowk

That NB literally APPEARED OUT OF THIN AIR. I never saw it coming because there was no visible animation of a gap closer from him so nobody would have expected him to be using RoA. At first I thought he was just gonna Incap the teammate behind me so I didn’t hold block, but a short moment later RoA procced and pulled me into a Soul Tether burst and I died from the Vicious Death proc (the other teammate died proccing it).

Not only that, the chain animation from RoA was way too quick and not visible enough for me to have noticed it, especially during that fight when I was focusing on the dude in the corner. It's not like DC or Meteor where there's a huge circle on the ground or under your feet and the delay timer ticks while the animation plays out. With RoA, the delay timer ticks FIRST, then the animation plays out. This basically means by the time you do notice the chains shooting towards you, it’s already too late to block. Most of the time you don’t even know whether the opponent has RoA or not either lol. Even if you assumed he did have RoA, then he could just as easily hide his Ambush animation by Cloaking and appear out of thin air like in the video lol.

That clip isn't quite as compelling as you think, yes you got pulled but you're tunnelvisioning on a single low health opponent while fighting near an ally that doesn't seem to know how to heal themself or properly react to a NB (before the pull at all). If that teammate had reacted properly to being gap closed to and having their health chunked (way more than it should've been if they were built or buffed properly) then they wouldn't have died and they wouldn't have killed you. Yes RoA pulled you into the VD, but any other pull would've done the same, it isn't a RoA issue. Poor positioning, tunnel vision, and a poor ally VDing you is what cased this, not RoA. Mistkes were made, no one should have died in this clip.

Edit: also you absolutely can see the NB appear at the end of their gap closer right at the bottom of the frame (right before you charge your camera headfirst into a wall)

You can say that, but if RoA had a proper telegraph he could have blocked there and not been pulled.

xFocused

MincMincMinc wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Look at this clip for example:

https://youtu.be/9fdzoRCqowk

That NB literally APPEARED OUT OF THIN AIR. I never saw it coming because there was no visible animation of a gap closer from him so nobody would have expected him to be using RoA. At first I thought he was just gonna Incap the teammate behind me so I didn’t hold block, but a short moment later RoA procced and pulled me into a Soul Tether burst and I died from the Vicious Death proc (the other teammate died proccing it).

Not only that, the chain animation from RoA was way too quick and not visible enough for me to have noticed it, especially during that fight when I was focusing on the dude in the corner. It's not like DC or Meteor where there's a huge circle on the ground or under your feet and the delay timer ticks while the animation plays out. With RoA, the delay timer ticks FIRST, then the animation plays out. This basically means by the time you do notice the chains shooting towards you, it’s already too late to block. Most of the time you don’t even know whether the opponent has RoA or not either lol. Even if you assumed he did have RoA, then he could just as easily hide his Ambush animation by Cloaking and appear out of thin air like in the video lol.

That clip isn't quite as compelling as you think, yes you got pulled but you're tunnelvisioning on a single low health opponent while fighting near an ally that doesn't seem to know how to heal themself or properly react to a NB (before the pull at all). If that teammate had reacted properly to being gap closed to and having their health chunked (way more than it should've been if they were built or buffed properly) then they wouldn't have died and they wouldn't have killed you. Yes RoA pulled you into the VD, but any other pull would've done the same, it isn't a RoA issue. Poor positioning, tunnel vision, and a poor ally VDing you is what cased this, not RoA. Mistkes were made, no one should have died in this clip.

Edit: also you absolutely can see the NB appear at the end of their gap closer right at the bottom of the frame (right before you charge your camera headfirst into a wall)

You can say that, but if RoA had a proper telegraph he could have blocked there and not been pulled.

The fact a NB can use this set while in stealth making it all the harder to counter should be considered a problem in itself. As I’ve stated before, the fact that we all hear the proc first but not see it until moments later should be considered a problem. It has a 8s cooldown but you’re able to be yanked over and over again by someone else using the set so the cooldown seems kinda irrelevant. Yes I get why BG’s and pugs use it, I’ve ran it myself and been in groups that run it and I can fully admit the set is broke and it’s only making the solo players logout so all that’s left are BG’s and pugs

MincMincMinc

xFocused wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Look at this clip for example:

https://youtu.be/9fdzoRCqowk

That NB literally APPEARED OUT OF THIN AIR. I never saw it coming because there was no visible animation of a gap closer from him so nobody would have expected him to be using RoA. At first I thought he was just gonna Incap the teammate behind me so I didn’t hold block, but a short moment later RoA procced and pulled me into a Soul Tether burst and I died from the Vicious Death proc (the other teammate died proccing it).

Not only that, the chain animation from RoA was way too quick and not visible enough for me to have noticed it, especially during that fight when I was focusing on the dude in the corner. It's not like DC or Meteor where there's a huge circle on the ground or under your feet and the delay timer ticks while the animation plays out. With RoA, the delay timer ticks FIRST, then the animation plays out. This basically means by the time you do notice the chains shooting towards you, it’s already too late to block. Most of the time you don’t even know whether the opponent has RoA or not either lol. Even if you assumed he did have RoA, then he could just as easily hide his Ambush animation by Cloaking and appear out of thin air like in the video lol.

That clip isn't quite as compelling as you think, yes you got pulled but you're tunnelvisioning on a single low health opponent while fighting near an ally that doesn't seem to know how to heal themself or properly react to a NB (before the pull at all). If that teammate had reacted properly to being gap closed to and having their health chunked (way more than it should've been if they were built or buffed properly) then they wouldn't have died and they wouldn't have killed you. Yes RoA pulled you into the VD, but any other pull would've done the same, it isn't a RoA issue. Poor positioning, tunnel vision, and a poor ally VDing you is what cased this, not RoA. Mistkes were made, no one should have died in this clip.

Edit: also you absolutely can see the NB appear at the end of their gap closer right at the bottom of the frame (right before you charge your camera headfirst into a wall)

You can say that, but if RoA had a proper telegraph he could have blocked there and not been pulled.

The fact a NB can use this set while in stealth making it all the harder to counter should be considered a problem in itself. As I’ve stated before, the fact that we all hear the proc first but not see it until moments later should be considered a problem. It has a 8s cooldown but you’re able to be yanked over and over again by someone else using the set so the cooldown seems kinda irrelevant. Yes I get why BG’s and pugs use it, I’ve ran it myself and been in groups that run it and I can fully admit the set is broke and it’s only making the solo players logout so all that’s left are BG’s and pugs

Strange I dont get notifications when I get quoted, kinda annoying. Well look at that clip of static's. You can't/shouldn't assume all gap closers are going to insta kill you. Granted gap closers are so useless outside of RoA, but thats another issue on its own.

However the rush telegraph is like 0.8s and half of that time is the small chain forming in the air. Realistically you get 200-400ms to block which is barely 2 average reaction times. This is tight enough that if you are already in the process of weapon swapping you are guaranteed to be pulled.

---

Start by making a clear telegraph.

1. After the gap closer chains shoot out (0.4s)
2. Then the chain is tethered to the enemy (0.6s)
3. Then a sound effect of chains pulling plays (0.4s)
4. Then the pull happens (stun happens and is CC breakable)

Then update the cooldown to atleast 30s or 45s to prevent groups from abusing vs solo players.
Then tweak or remove the damage aspect because it is unnecessary bloat on the servers. We dont need 5 proc sets in one....

xFocused

MincMincMinc wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Look at this clip for example:

https://youtu.be/9fdzoRCqowk

That NB literally APPEARED OUT OF THIN AIR. I never saw it coming because there was no visible animation of a gap closer from him so nobody would have expected him to be using RoA. At first I thought he was just gonna Incap the teammate behind me so I didn’t hold block, but a short moment later RoA procced and pulled me into a Soul Tether burst and I died from the Vicious Death proc (the other teammate died proccing it).

Not only that, the chain animation from RoA was way too quick and not visible enough for me to have noticed it, especially during that fight when I was focusing on the dude in the corner. It's not like DC or Meteor where there's a huge circle on the ground or under your feet and the delay timer ticks while the animation plays out. With RoA, the delay timer ticks FIRST, then the animation plays out. This basically means by the time you do notice the chains shooting towards you, it’s already too late to block. Most of the time you don’t even know whether the opponent has RoA or not either lol. Even if you assumed he did have RoA, then he could just as easily hide his Ambush animation by Cloaking and appear out of thin air like in the video lol.

That clip isn't quite as compelling as you think, yes you got pulled but you're tunnelvisioning on a single low health opponent while fighting near an ally that doesn't seem to know how to heal themself or properly react to a NB (before the pull at all). If that teammate had reacted properly to being gap closed to and having their health chunked (way more than it should've been if they were built or buffed properly) then they wouldn't have died and they wouldn't have killed you. Yes RoA pulled you into the VD, but any other pull would've done the same, it isn't a RoA issue. Poor positioning, tunnel vision, and a poor ally VDing you is what cased this, not RoA. Mistkes were made, no one should have died in this clip.

Edit: also you absolutely can see the NB appear at the end of their gap closer right at the bottom of the frame (right before you charge your camera headfirst into a wall)

You can say that, but if RoA had a proper telegraph he could have blocked there and not been pulled.

The fact a NB can use this set while in stealth making it all the harder to counter should be considered a problem in itself. As I’ve stated before, the fact that we all hear the proc first but not see it until moments later should be considered a problem. It has a 8s cooldown but you’re able to be yanked over and over again by someone else using the set so the cooldown seems kinda irrelevant. Yes I get why BG’s and pugs use it, I’ve ran it myself and been in groups that run it and I can fully admit the set is broke and it’s only making the solo players logout so all that’s left are BG’s and pugs

Strange I dont get notifications when I get quoted, kinda annoying. Well look at that clip of static's. You can't/shouldn't assume all gap closers are going to insta kill you. Granted gap closers are so useless outside of RoA, but thats another issue on its own.

However the rush telegraph is like 0.8s and half of that time is the small chain forming in the air. Realistically you get 200-400ms to block which is barely 2 average reaction times. This is tight enough that if you are already in the process of weapon swapping you are guaranteed to be pulled.

---

Start by making a clear telegraph.

1. After the gap closer chains shoot out (0.4s)
2. Then the chain is tethered to the enemy (0.6s)
3. Then a sound effect of chains pulling plays (0.4s)
4. Then the pull happens (stun happens and is CC breakable)

Then update the cooldown to atleast 30s or 45s to prevent groups from abusing vs solo players.
Then tweak or remove the damage aspect because it is unnecessary bloat on the servers. We dont need 5 proc sets in one....

I don’t get the notifications either unless I come back and check the actual thread, lol, but I do agree with all your points on the set

Joy_Division

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

The only undercurrent and bad faith I see are people making excuses for a set that plays the game for them.

Had this argument with one of the comp group guys in zone chat. He did acknowledge that his group doesn't need Rushing Agony, but he thinks that players "should" have developed enough skill to counter it.

So I told him that pugs find it unfun and it makes them quit PvP, and asked who he's gonna farm when all the pugs are gone. Doors? NPCs? Seeing as how we were in zone chat because the server was empty and no PvP was going on...

Argument over, we agreeably moved to new topics. Might as well chat until when/if players log on.

Most pugs just want to low-effort Xv1 and win with numbers. Which is not a playstyle that we should be overly concerned with catering to.

There are some pretty reasonable takes in this thread but also a fair bit of ill-informed histrionics.

The broadly satisfactory middle ground for this is likely something on the order of:

1. Greatly improve visual/audio telegraph
2. Fix LOS/height behavior (though this is likely just a symptom of positional desync and overall bad game performance)
3. Strip the damage proc

And then simply clone the Dark Convergence mechanic of:

If successfully blocked -> pull does nothing
Else -> pull and automatically stun (which then invokes traditional CC immunity -> meaning no repeat pulls from multiple wearers)

Viola.

The set now has better counterplay opportunity, deals zero damage, and no longer allows the annoying behavior of repeated "ping-pong" pulls (as well as being pulled from ledges, corners, etc.) from multiple wearers. It also preserves a clearly differentiated use case vs. Dark Convergence, where each set has distinct relative strengths and weaknesses. And is much more balanced vs. other potential options like Void Bash and the Scribing pull.

This isn't a middle ground. It is maintaining the worst part of the set (not granting CC immunity), which happens to be what enables the very low effort ball group pug farming you say the game shoild not cater to.

TechMaybeHic

I think we make assumptions when we say ball groups don't need the set. There used to be groups that tried to be ball groups and were not very good about positioning and coordination and could be wiped by decent groups of players who saw the choke point and would not fall for it. ROA made kill zones possible anywhere so chokepoints aren't needed. Just LOS between dumps.