Bushido2513 wrote: »

Also different people are saying they do or don't see sorcs so I'm going to say maybe consider time that you play, where you play, and platform. These can ask factor into how many sorcs you do or don't see.

Tcholl wrote: »

It is funny how ppl try to defend Ward lecturing about personal skill. Hardened Ward is available to all players, with or without skill and to all possible builds.

The issue is the shield, which is up to 75 percent of the health, plus a burst heal. You can compare to a few other skills, maybe an arcanist shield or whatever, but everyone knows that sorcs ALSO have huge mobility (streak) and are causing way too much ranged burst damage compared to other classes. It just adds to the tank/healing meta that makes so many players leave pvp in eso everyday.

It is eazy to note that the only ones defending the change to this skill are a few sorc mains. Everyone else is on the same page, which is the reason this post is still ongoing. Not only in the forums, players are complaining about the hardened ward on youtube and reddit.

Do you really want to keep a buff to your class at expense of players leaving pvp? Because, this is exactly what is happening.

StaticWave wrote: »

Tcholl wrote: »

It is funny how ppl try to defend Ward lecturing about personal skill. Hardened Ward is available to all players, with or without skill and to all possible builds.

The issue is the shield, which is up to 75 percent of the health, plus a burst heal. You can compare to a few other skills, maybe an arcanist shield or whatever, but everyone knows that sorcs ALSO have huge mobility (streak) and are causing way too much ranged burst damage compared to other classes. It just adds to the tank/healing meta that makes so many players leave pvp in eso everyday.

It is eazy to note that the only ones defending the change to this skill are a few sorc mains. Everyone else is on the same page, which is the reason this post is still ongoing. Not only in the forums, players are complaining about the hardened ward on youtube and reddit.

Do you really want to keep a buff to your class at expense of players leaving pvp? Because, this is exactly what is happening.

I’ve yet to hear anyone say Ward is balanced in game. It’s almost the complete opposite. I either hear “Sorc is broken” or “Ward is broken” lol. In fact, last week someone in Cyrodiil whispered me and said “props for not using Ward like the others”.

After 6 months, it’s VERY clear what the community feels about this ability. What’s alarming is it didn’t really need 6 months to reach this conclusion. 1 hour of PvP is enough to understand how overperforming Ward is haha.

StaticWave wrote: »

Tcholl wrote: »

It is funny how ppl try to defend Ward lecturing about personal skill. Hardened Ward is available to all players, with or without skill and to all possible builds.

The issue is the shield, which is up to 75 percent of the health, plus a burst heal. You can compare to a few other skills, maybe an arcanist shield or whatever, but everyone knows that sorcs ALSO have huge mobility (streak) and are causing way too much ranged burst damage compared to other classes. It just adds to the tank/healing meta that makes so many players leave pvp in eso everyday.

It is eazy to note that the only ones defending the change to this skill are a few sorc mains. Everyone else is on the same page, which is the reason this post is still ongoing. Not only in the forums, players are complaining about the hardened ward on youtube and reddit.

Do you really want to keep a buff to your class at expense of players leaving pvp? Because, this is exactly what is happening.

I’ve yet to hear anyone say Ward is balanced in game. It’s almost the complete opposite. I either hear “Sorc is broken” or “Ward is broken” lol. In fact, last week someone in Cyrodiil whispered me and said “props for not using Ward like the others”.

After 6 months, it’s VERY clear what the community feels about this ability. What’s alarming is it didn’t really need 6 months to reach this conclusion. 1 hour of PvP is enough to understand how overperforming Ward is haha.

Zabagad wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

That is the main reason why I take all 4 CP campaigns and publish the mean

Are you weighting for server population? NA/GH has significantly higher pop than NA/BR, which is often dead.

I tried that in the beginning (like I tried a lot of other stuff too - using Top101-200 or Top100 per alliance and more) and even with the best method to weight them, the difference was so small that I desided against any weight.
For deeper details we need to talk deeper abouts statistics

And it was a good decision - e.g. on EU these days both campaigns are switching and ppl play more in BR then in GH...
Btw: "dead" is a hard word because most of the time place 100 has 4,XM for GH and 2,XM for BR. So most of the time they are ~50% and not dead...

At the end its anyway not the truth that there are 23,5% sorcs or whatever. And what is the true population? Who should be count?
Important for me are the ups and downs and the relative difference between the classes.
In U35 NB+DK were at the Top and now it's still NB and Sorc is closing the gap step by step.

Edit: I just did a quick weighted version for you and U42:

You see? The diff is not much - but more work - more possible errors - more confusion - different ways to weight...
Btw: I never expected to publish it and I did that for 1,5 years just for me

divnyi wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot well the only signigicant thing buffed on NBs through years is passively active skills - relentless and siphoning attacks. And I mean those changes are NICE from gameplay point of view, I wish they actually transformed pure buff skills to active skills for other classes too.

But that change made merciless less clunky to use, thus more people can use it now effectively.
In incap + merciless combo the obvious hit is not incap, incap is an ultimate and it should feel good to land.
Burst damage of merciless should be hit.

Now the other problem is that NB is the only class now that has a unique mechanic. Teleports were once unique to sorc, sorc is still the king of teleports, but teleports are now available in neutral. NBs are gonna remain strong if they would be just able to cloak and be able to kill a single digit from cloak (some metas were bad for NBs because they were too tanky).

Neutral cloak is probably a thing that we don't want, at least I don't see how to make it without being broken.
Nerfing cloak is probably a thing we don't want either, this is a sin on a level of what U35 did to templars.

*shrugs*

• Offering - a 25% cheaper HtD that also grants mending is insane. It's a truly spammable burst heal. The health loss is a non-factor, the 1 time it gets you killed is nothing compared to the 9999 other times the heal will take you from 0 to full in 1 button.
• Original Dark Cloak - second most broken HoT we have seen in the past 3 years behind only intensive mender before that was nerfed into the ground.
• Incap - Increased the debuff significantly and made it part of the base cast, not just the proc cast when higher ulti.
• Concealed - self damage buff that makes it stronger than dizzy without any of the downsides of dizzy (cast time/weapon lock) and it also provides permanent passive minor expedition while on either bar.
• Cloak - Major prophecy/savagery on either bar, also more and more counters get removed every patch, we are literally down to detect pots and that's it for reliable ways to counter cloak with ele sus and entropy being removed next patch.
• Power extraction - the biggest weapon/spell damage swing in 1 ability in the game (major brut/sorc + minor courage + minor cowardice all on a spammable AoE is crazy).
• Siphoning - as you said, "passive active skills", but also burst sustain that can be block-cast (ZOS gutted dark deal for doing this by giving it a cast time but they gave it to siphoning???)
• multiple skills that have passive effects on either bar (totalling 6, which is more than arcanist that introduced that mechanic)

• Incap currently feels fine to me too. It's strong and while the debuff is probably a bit much considering everything else the class currently has (for PvP) if some other things were toned down it would be fine. (I wouldn't adjust incap personally)
• Merciless definitely needs its burst toning down. It hits almost as hard (at base) as take flight (the highest single instance of damage in the game) but has significantly more damage modifiers available to buff it than take flight has access to. I would adjust it to be say 65% of its current damage upfront then the remaining damage as a DoT that buffs damage done against monsters affected by the DoT.
• Offering needs toning down as well. There is no reason for it to be that cheap to use while being as strong as it is. Either make the health cost actually impactful or remove it completely and significantly increase the mag cost to an appropriate value for a burst heal that is that strong.
• As for cloak itself, there are a few ways they can go about adjusting it without totally killing it.
  1. Remove/adjust the bonuses it procs/provides. Have major prophecy/savagery require casting cloak to gain that buff for 20 seconds instead of just passively for slotting on either bar, also, remove its interaction with the strike from shadows passive since this is another unique aspect to NB as the only class that doesn't require using mist form or invis pots to activate that passive (my preferred option since cloak was still very strong before it got those buffs) OR
  2. Make counters to stealth strong, cheap, reliable and don't take away from a build to use them. (unpopular but this is a common way other games balance stealth) OR
  3. Give cloak a cooldown to enforce downtime. No other game that has PvP allows for permanent (or even semi-permanent) stealth options without making those stealth options insanely weak, easy to counter or have a cooldown. (probably the least popular option, but also something other games have done to balance stealth).

divnyi wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

NB received multiple significant buffs over the past 2 years.

The list has items that definitely weren't touch in the last 2 years.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

65% of its current damage upfront then the remaining damage as a DoT that buffs damage done against monsters affected by the DoT.

Completely agree.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

[*] Offering needs toning down as well. There is no reason for it to be that cheap to use while being as strong as it is. Either make the health cost actually impactful or remove it completely and significantly increase the mag cost to an appropriate value for a burst heal that is that strong.

Offering now competes with scribing, where scribing heals as much but is present in any class.
It's only strong side right now is that it is cone skill and not area, otherwise scribing variant outperforms.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

2. Make counters to stealth strong, cheap, reliable and don't take away from a build to use them. (unpopular but this is a common way other games balance stealth) OR
3. Give cloak a cooldown to enforce downtime. No other game that has PvP allows for permanent (or even semi-permanent) stealth options without making those stealth options insanely weak, easy to counter or have a cooldown. (probably the least popular option, but also something other games have done to balance stealth).

AoEs pull people out of stealth, and it is the intended way to fight the cloak. But right now you need to span AoEs every GCD and can't pull any other stronger move.

It's strength can be increased - when you get smacked by AoE while in stealth, receive 3 seconds on cannot-be-stealthed debuff.
And for anti-stealth skill variances, increase cannot-be-stealthed time to some BIG number. Like 10 seconds.

As for "ways to counter stealth being removed", good riddance.
Those were bugs. Nothing in the skill description mentions it removes stealth.
Cloak should act in a predictable fashion, otherwise it will be annoying to everyone.

Zabagad wrote: »

Where is the CMX or death recap where you show how much dmg he did to you?
I'm very often around other alliance ppl - but when it comes to a 1vX I don't participate in the "hunting".
2vX depends on the 2.

Anyway - imo that post is a bad move from your side... (thats why I dont quote to give you a chance to edit...)

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Now when every class has access to scribing burst heal, what is the point of ward heal???

Oh, I forgot, without ward heal, sorcerers would have to use scribing heal, so no scribing spammable for them.

Summarizing:

1. Sorcerer was S-tier before ward buff. (PROOF - metallic monk won 1v1 tournament with magsorc before ward buff, whice streak is kinda weak in 1v1)
2. Sorcerer ward was buffed, making it 2 tiers above S-tier.
3. Scribing was introduced, and sorc with scribing spammable sits now 3 tiers above S-tier.

I mean WHAT IS GOING ON HERE? Basically every top PvP player rerolled to sorc. There is absolutely no reason to play other classes, maybe with exception to nightblade, because of invisibility and ganking potential.

And AFAIK sorcerer is NOT getting nerfed next patch.

Once more, WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?