boi_anachronism_ wrote: »(...) I gave up on pvp like 6 updates ago. (...)
xylena_lazarow wrote: »If we just swap the gun with the knife. Thought we figured this one out a thousand posts ago.boi_anachronism_ wrote: »Hey kids if we just swap sorc with dk
Show me a DK nuking opponents from 41m away then teleporting around the map.Bushido2513 wrote: »This isn't that
xylena_lazarow wrote: »Show me a DK nuking opponents from 41m away then teleporting around the map.Bushido2513 wrote: »This isn't that
They were killable. DK is plenty fair now that you can't do perma Corrosive, so I'll take that meta.Bushido2513 wrote: »I could show you a patch cycle where dks just weren't killable and you got multi leaped any time you played.
xylena_lazarow wrote: »They were killable. DK is plenty fair now that you can't do perma Corrosive, so I'll take that meta.Bushido2513 wrote: »I could show you a patch cycle where dks just weren't killable and you got multi leaped any time you played.
Mash together Igneous Shield and Coag Blood into a single skill: Coagulating Shield, a 16k burst heal with an 8k shield, to match Hardened Ward's 16k shield with an 8k burst heal. Now the meta is balanced?This was not supose to be a thread about DKs, but if we want to compare just give Hardened Ward to DK buffing Igneous Shield or Coag Blood.
xylena_lazarow wrote: »Mash together Igneous Shield and Coag Blood into a single skill: Coagulating Shield, a 16k burst heal with an 8k shield, to match Hardened Ward's 16k shield with an 8k burst heal. Now the meta is balanced?This was not supose to be a thread about DKs, but if we want to compare just give Hardened Ward to DK buffing Igneous Shield or Coag Blood.
xylena_lazarow wrote: »Mash together Igneous Shield and Coag Blood into a single skill: Coagulating Shield, a 16k burst heal with an 8k shield, to match Hardened Ward's 16k shield with an 8k burst heal. Now the meta is balanced?This was not supose to be a thread about DKs, but if we want to compare just give Hardened Ward to DK buffing Igneous Shield or Coag Blood.
Yet nobody is screaming for Coag Blood nerfs anymore. Some DKs don't even slot it. If you press Coag Blood while at full hp, congrats you just wasted 4k magicka. Hardened Ward has no such weakness. You press it at full hp, you now have an extra 16k hp. You press it when you're low, you recover just as well as you would with Coag Blood.A 16k heal on demand will never be balanced.
xylena_lazarow wrote: »Yet nobody is screaming for Coag Blood nerfs anymore. Some DKs don't even slot it. If you press Coag Blood while at full hp, congrats you just wasted 4k magicka. Hardened Ward has no such weakness. You press it at full hp, you now have an extra 16k hp. You press it when you're low, you recover just as well as you would with Coag Blood.A 16k heal on demand will never be balanced.
TechMaybeHic wrote: »I pair a burst heal with my ward but under pressure from multiple attacker, it seems spamming ward is the best bet. Health doesn't recover to then go on the offensive, but it's total value without a crit on the heal is better that of a crit burst heal on another class which obvious doesn't happen every time.
I've also been alternating with my templar, doing some solo and zerg surfing being stubborn and wanting my old main. I can get my templar to layer restoring focus, vigor, and living dark to survive and maybe even be tankier overall; then hit HTD to recover but that's 3 abilities to fill what my sorc does with just 1. Sorc curse and frags together is also infinitely more reliable burst and chunky pressure than anything my templar does, which now really relies on meteor, javelin, Radiant combos
Guess my main point is how much easier sorc is right now at offense and defense. Never used to be the case. Even in sorcs hay day before the current; it was at the top end of better players playing it right while a lot of templars "just spammed jabs" and got away with it. Tines have changed I guess
I would, but it's also currently entangled with Vamp 3, soon to be righteously nerfed, which should appropriately make shield builds more vulnerable to execute damage. Enough to balance Hardened Ward? Probably not.StaticWave wrote: »I wouldn’t say Ward recovers just as well as a burst heal when low
xylena_lazarow wrote: »I would, but it's also currently entangled with Vamp 3, soon to be righteously nerfed, which should appropriately make shield builds more vulnerable to execute damage. Enough to balance Hardened Ward? Probably not.StaticWave wrote: »I wouldn’t say Ward recovers just as well as a burst heal when low
StaticWave wrote: »Galeriano2 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Galeriano2 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Galeriano2 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.
The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).
This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.
If You don't understand something than maybe it's worth to check that out for Yourself before drawing personal conclusions and calling them "only possible explanation".
Just make one of the classic magsorc setups, switch hardened ward with healing soul and see how it will go.
Here let me repost this for you:StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.
The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).
This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.
It's so easy to prove why mag sorcs don't swap to a regular burst heal just by using the UESP Build Editor (which is fairly accurate). For simplicity purposes, I won't be including CP in these demonstrations:
Here's a wardless mag sorc build and self buffed stats on front bar and back bar, respectively:
Here's a wardless bow stam sorc build and self buffed stats on front bar and back bar, respectively:
Both builds have an empty slot for Healing Soul. Both builds have over 10k Effective Weapon Power, with bow sorc sitting at 10.5k, around 500 higher than the wardless mag sorc build.
Both builds cannot use tri-pots because they don't have the bar space to fit in Camo Hunter, thereby needing to use Spell Crit pots for Major Prophecy. Both builds cannot slot Dawnbreaker and Energy Overload, as they need Temporal Guard for Minor Protection, and that's only on the back bar. Both builds need Rallying Cry for defense because without it, they will die so quickly in the current meta.
Then you look at a ward magsorc build:
It has just as much Effective Weapon Power as the other 2 builds, but it can also use tri pots because it doesn't need to slot Hurricane. It also uses Shocking Soul for a spammable with Major Vitality, and combined with a 56k max mag pool, its shield sits at around 14k in No CP and around 9k healing tooltip. With that shield size, it does not need Rallying Cry for defense. It can also slot both Dawnbreaker and Energy Overload because it already has access to Minor Protection via a class skill, which applies to both bars. Did I also mention Jeralls can't do anything to it either because its main defense is shielding and Jerall does not affect shields?
That ward mag sorc build is A LOT tankier than the wardless magsorc and bow sorc builds. It's achieving that without the need of a defensive set. Now imagine if I put Rallying Cry on that build and slot Hurricane:
Put Major Breach on Shocking Soul instead of Major Vitality. It will lose 10% crit damage and Major Vitality, but instead it gains Minor Expedition + Balorgh, which makes up for the damage loss anyway. Now you have a build that's not only tankier, but also faster in general and still does similar damage lol.
No sane mag sorc would drop Hardened Ward in its current iteration to run a less optimal build, aka mag sorc with regular burst heal. Funnily enough, a mag sorc build with regular burst heal would be the most optimal build for mag sorc if Hardened Ward did not get buffed lol.
And? You really think that to understand certain playstyle ang gain knowledge about it that will be enough to draw reliable conclusions You can just tap numbers in UESP build editor and call it a day?
Your comparison is missing many important elements that won''t be immidiately deduced from just looking at raw build editor numbers and thus it's unreliable and simpy false. Go and play the setup then comment.
I play magsorc and fight against magsorc everyday lol. I know it’s enough to call it a day.
You play magsorc the way You're trying to promote? With a healing soul and all the other stuff from Your UESP build editor screenshot? Do You also fight against sorcs like that?
You may think it's enough to call it a day and someone else may think otherwise. It's just opinions. Make a setup You're promoting play it for w while and turn opinions into more reliable data.
Dude.. my hybrid sorc is using vampire spammable, curse, and cfrag as damage. All mag skills. The only stam skills I have are Vigor and Hurricane. That is literally a magsorc build lol.
You can easily slot Vigor like every other hybrid build and have good healing. You don’t need to play a pure shield spec.
StaticWave wrote: »Galeriano2 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Galeriano2 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Galeriano2 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.
The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).
This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.
If You don't understand something than maybe it's worth to check that out for Yourself before drawing personal conclusions and calling them "only possible explanation".
Just make one of the classic magsorc setups, switch hardened ward with healing soul and see how it will go.
I don't care about classic magsorcs when the game is hybridized. Just slot Healing Soul and Vigor like a normal build. Everybody is running it. You're trying to hold on to a 10 year old spec when every spec is now hybrid. Not my problem magsorc mains refuse to adapt.
"Like a normal build" seems like something with lot of bias behind it.
I am not trying to do anything other than point out that magsorc is not like every other build and Your comparisons are heavily failing to capture that. You basically want for every magsorc to become weaker version of stamsorc.
Why won't You adapt? Make a magsorc. Kinda ironic to expect for others to do what You are refusing to do..
I’ve already adapted by slotting a burst heal. I’m not out here defending a skill that makes 1 spec OP
On a magsorc instead of hardened ward?
Barely anyone here is defending the fact that hardened was overbuffed. Problem is that Your arguments usually go far beyond just claiming that. It's one thing to claim that hardened is OP and something completly else to for example claim that magsorc can be viable and balanced with just plain spammable burst heal.
Yes. Hybridization gave magsorc the best HoT in the game (Vigor), and Hurricane. Slotting those 2 skills turn it into a stamsorc but with magicka offensive skills. I’m playing that spec right now and I think it’s very competitive in OW. Everyone here should try it.
cofdeath420 wrote: »Yeah, when 99% of the people doing PvP are running a sorc, you know something is broken. Time to remove the heal.
StaticWave wrote: »Ward in Cyrodiil at 46k max mag:
Healing Soul on back bar at 6k weapon damage and 30k stam:
Ward gives 12.2k shield + a 7.1k healing tooltip (which is about 3.5k non crit in PvP). Healing Soul gives a 12.6k healing tooltip, which is about 6.5k in PvP.
So a 12.2k shield + 3.5k non crit heal vs a 6.5k non crit heal that can potentially crit for 11k. Yea I think everyone here knows the answer for which is stronger lol.
Turtle_Bot wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Ward in Cyrodiil at 46k max mag:
Healing Soul on back bar at 6k weapon damage and 30k stam:
Ward gives 12.2k shield + a 7.1k healing tooltip (which is about 3.5k non crit in PvP). Healing Soul gives a 12.6k healing tooltip, which is about 6.5k in PvP.
So a 12.2k shield + 3.5k non crit heal vs a 6.5k non crit heal that can potentially crit for 11k. Yea I think everyone here knows the answer for which is stronger lol.
that actually looks like a pretty low tooltip for heal soul, especially if you are at 6k+ weapon damage and 30k stam, it should be much closer to 15k at those numbers, which is roughly where mine tooltips (15k is also roughly where offering tooltips for on my NB that also gets 17k+ actual heals when offering crits).
StaticWave wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Ward in Cyrodiil at 46k max mag:
Healing Soul on back bar at 6k weapon damage and 30k stam:
Ward gives 12.2k shield + a 7.1k healing tooltip (which is about 3.5k non crit in PvP). Healing Soul gives a 12.6k healing tooltip, which is about 6.5k in PvP.
So a 12.2k shield + 3.5k non crit heal vs a 6.5k non crit heal that can potentially crit for 11k. Yea I think everyone here knows the answer for which is stronger lol.
that actually looks like a pretty low tooltip for heal soul, especially if you are at 6k+ weapon damage and 30k stam, it should be much closer to 15k at those numbers, which is roughly where mine tooltips (15k is also roughly where offering tooltips for on my NB that also gets 17k+ actual heals when offering crits).
Wasn't with keep buff