Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

TechMaybeHic

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Now when every class has access to scribing burst heal, what is the point of ward heal???

Oh, I forgot, without ward heal, sorcerers would have to use scribing heal, so no scribing spammable for them.

Summarizing:

1. Sorcerer was S-tier before ward buff. (PROOF - metallic monk won 1v1 tournament with magsorc before ward buff, whice streak is kinda weak in 1v1)
2. Sorcerer ward was buffed, making it 2 tiers above S-tier.
3. Scribing was introduced, and sorc with scribing spammable sits now 3 tiers above S-tier.

I mean WHAT IS GOING ON HERE? Basically every top PvP player rerolled to sorc. There is absolutely no reason to play other classes, maybe with exception to nightblade, because of invisibility and ganking potential.

And AFAIK sorcerer is NOT getting nerfed next patch.

Once more, WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?

Vibrant shroud is actually a good self heal now with blood magic added to it, and it's also a good group heal. Don't need to scribe anything

Galeriano2

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Now when every class has access to scribing burst heal, what is the point of ward heal???

Oh, I forgot, without ward heal, sorcerers would have to use scribing heal, so no scribing spammable for them.

Summarizing:

1. Sorcerer was S-tier before ward buff. (PROOF - metallic monk won 1v1 tournament with magsorc before ward buff, whice streak is kinda weak in 1v1)
2. Sorcerer ward was buffed, making it 2 tiers above S-tier.
3. Scribing was introduced, and sorc with scribing spammable sits now 3 tiers above S-tier.

I mean WHAT IS GOING ON HERE? Basically every top PvP player rerolled to sorc. There is absolutely no reason to play other classes, maybe with exception to nightblade, because of invisibility and ganking potential.

And AFAIK sorcerer is NOT getting nerfed next patch.

Once more, WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?

You do realize scribing also allows You to make a shield? You can even add healing to that shield. Yes it's only a healing over time but according to many posts here a shield with a HoT is a very powerfull tool that magsorc should end up having instead of shield with a burst heal. You can also add major vitality to that skill to make that skill even stronger. It's a sarcasm btw.

On a more serious note fact that metalic monk won a duel tournament before ward change doesn't mean magsorc was a S tier PvP setup. There were duel tournaments where representatives of Your main class, templar, were ending in some of the top positions but somehow I don't think You will start saying that magplar is one of the top setups in PvP. There is a massive leap between duel tournaments and actuall PvP in Cyro, IC and BGs.

The setup that could be called an S tier in right hands before shield change was a stamsorc. Sorcerer shield was buffed due to poor performance of magsorc is Cyro and BGs and that buff didn't move stamsorc "2 tiers above S tier.

Scribing spammables while being decent are definietly not moving sorc 3 tiers up. Many sorcs don't even use those because they preffer utility of destro spammable or burst combo with psijic spammable. Wield soul offers just a different type of utility but it's definietly not some one spammable to rule them all.

VinnyGambini

Galeriano2 wrote: »

On a more serious note fact that metalic monk won a duel tournament before ward change doesn't mean magsorc was a S tier PvP setup. There were duel tournaments where representatives of Your main class, templar, were ending in some of the top positions but somehow I don't think You will start saying that magplar is one of the top setups in PvP. There is a massive leap between duel tournaments and actuall PvP in Cyro, IC and BGs.

O RLY? So you are saying templar was stronger in 1v1 that sorc?

Just fot your info: templar strongest point is staying inside his runes, which is extremly useful in 1v1 scenarios. So basically 1v1 arena is templar's strongest point, strongest possible environment.

Just for your info 2: sorcerers strongest point WAS mobility (before ward buff), which is not really useful in 1v1 arena. So basically 1v1 arena is sorcerers weakest possible environment.

So templar fighting sorcerer in his most FAUVORABLE environment and least favourable to sorcerer, still coudn't beat him. If that doesn't make sorcerer S-tier, then we seriously have different S-tier definition.

And yet sorcerer was buffed big time (3 tiers above). Comparing sorcerer to templar, currently I don't really see any aspect that templar does better.

Seriously, don't be delusional.

divnyi

VinnyGambini wrote: »

And yet sorcerer was buffed big time (3 tiers above). Comparing sorcerer to templar, currently I don't really see any aspect that templar does better.

I have a cat templar with acuity greataxe, shadow mundus.
Did some infinite archive grinding on it, then did the same on my Aetherial Ascention + Gaze of Sithis + Deadlands Demolisher MAGsorc (64 into mag and all enchants), frontbar is lightning staff with soul spammable.

I was shocked how much faster I kill stuff. It's like twice faster than templar in Acuity.
Yes that's not PvP, but I never before benchmarked those two builds at DPS because I was fairly certain jabplar built into pushing crit numbers up would be better at offensive than something that sits at 38k armor stat.

a_u_s_t_y

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Now when every class has access to scribing burst heal, what is the point of ward heal???

Oh, I forgot, without ward heal, sorcerers would have to use scribing heal, so no scribing spammable for them.

Summarizing:

1. Sorcerer was S-tier before ward buff. (PROOF - metallic monk won 1v1 tournament with magsorc before ward buff, whice streak is kinda weak in 1v1)
2. Sorcerer ward was buffed, making it 2 tiers above S-tier.
3. Scribing was introduced, and sorc with scribing spammable sits now 3 tiers above S-tier.

I mean WHAT IS GOING ON HERE? Basically every top PvP player rerolled to sorc. There is absolutely no reason to play other classes, maybe with exception to nightblade, because of invisibility and ganking potential.

And AFAIK sorcerer is NOT getting nerfed next patch.

Once more, WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?

Just to make notes on your bullet points because again the comments on this post are getting silly.

1 - you should never base a class power by dueling, specially dueling tournaments. Duelling is pretty much use the cheesiest set up to win, dueling is a joke in this game and should not be taken seriously.

Dueling tournaments are different because they have rules for each participant to follow and should not be used as an example of class power because the rules hinder/favour different classes. The fights are also timed and if a draw happens “judges” decide the winner which can be unfair/biased

Also, metallic monk is a really really really good sorc player and not many people can play sorc like that or come close to playing like that. Using him as an example actually goes against your argument that sorc is S++ tier.

2 - this comment is in no way constructive and fully opinion based so I have nothing to add.

3 -I don’t have gold road so there for I don’t have scribing. So this is purely based on opinion. I have done a lot of pvp without it and nothing about scribing seems OP and I’ve seen no skills that made me want to buy this chapter.. to be honest it’s a let down. This is just my opinion but scribing spammable doesn’t seem better than other options.. it’s just different and offers different things.. just like old spammables (ele wep and crushing shock)

I’ll agree with you that after the ward buff I saw most pvpers that I would consider “good” swap to sorc.. I think most people did to try it out but I also noticed that they soon changed back to other classes (mainly NB) and rarely see these same people on sorc.

There is absolutely every reason to play different classes because they all feel different, people have preferences and people succeed better on different classes.. the buff to ward has not made everyone swap to sorc.

Look at the stats previously.. nightblades apparently have highest percentage of players.. which has been a pretty steady percentage for like 6 updates.

Vaqual

The constant dismissal of 1v1 performance as a measure for class balance is the most upsetting thing in this thread.

"There is strength gap between your opponents class and your own that can not be bridged by any available combination of gear/sets/skills? Tough luck buddy, bring a friend."

Followed closely by this nonsense:

"Maybe Sorc is objectively too strong, but did you know that a lot of people like playing Nightblade?"

Enjoy your PvP experience.

Galeriano2

divnyi wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

And yet sorcerer was buffed big time (3 tiers above). Comparing sorcerer to templar, currently I don't really see any aspect that templar does better.

I have a cat templar with acuity greataxe, shadow mundus.
Did some infinite archive grinding on it, then did the same on my Aetherial Ascention + Gaze of Sithis + Deadlands Demolisher MAGsorc (64 into mag and all enchants), frontbar is lightning staff with soul spammable.

I was shocked how much faster I kill stuff. It's like twice faster than templar in Acuity.
Yes that's not PvP, but I never before benchmarked those two builds at DPS because I was fairly certain jabplar built into pushing crit numbers up would be better at offensive than something that sits at 38k armor stat.

Tbh acuity seems like a horrible choice for IA if You're planning to use it all the way no matter which class You picked.

IA especially in later stages heavily leans towards more tanky playstyles. Also visions and verses can make a big difference in time it takes to kill enemies there. I am not saying that templar is a better option for IA than sorc but there is definietly lot of variables to consider before claiming that tanky sorc is clearing arena faster than dmg oriented termplar.

Galeriano2

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

On a more serious note fact that metalic monk won a duel tournament before ward change doesn't mean magsorc was a S tier PvP setup. There were duel tournaments where representatives of Your main class, templar, were ending in some of the top positions but somehow I don't think You will start saying that magplar is one of the top setups in PvP. There is a massive leap between duel tournaments and actuall PvP in Cyro, IC and BGs.

O RLY? So you are saying templar was stronger in 1v1 that sorc?

Just fot your info: templar strongest point is staying inside his runes, which is extremly useful in 1v1 scenarios. So basically 1v1 arena is templar's strongest point, strongest possible environment.

Just for your info 2: sorcerers strongest point WAS mobility (before ward buff), which is not really useful in 1v1 arena. So basically 1v1 arena is sorcerers weakest possible environment.

So templar fighting sorcerer in his most FAUVORABLE environment and least favourable to sorcerer, still coudn't beat him. If that doesn't make sorcerer S-tier, then we seriously have different S-tier definition.

And yet sorcerer was buffed big time (3 tiers above). Comparing sorcerer to templar, currently I don't really see any aspect that templar does better.

Seriously, don't be delusional.

No I do not claim that. If You think otherwise I reccomend You to read what I wrote more carefully. Although if we're talking about 1v1 fights happening outside of duel tournaments than yes before ward change templar in many situations was stronger than magsorc

Just for Your info templar strongest point in duels is javelin+meteor+beam combo. Staying in runes is nowhere near being the strongest what templar has to offer. Standing almost still in a small circle and being a punchback is really not the best and most universal tactic to go with..

Just for Your info 2, duels in duel tournaments which You're reffering to are completly different form of PvP than anything else due to amount of rulesets they have. Quite often due to said rulesets sorcs are finding themselves in more favourable scenarios than they would outisde tournament fights. This is why Your claim that 1v1 arena is the weakest possible enviroment for sorc is not completly tue. Very often it's quite the opposite and 1v1 duel is sorc's strongest enviroment. And due to the same rulesets sometimes sorc can be completly screwed.

FYI in one of the latest duel tournament on PC EU that happened in the middle of the march and had some decent players participating, the winner was a magden and he demolished both mag and stamsorcs that participated. Does that make magden a top PvP setup?

Thanks for trying to share Your informations with me but my word of advice to You would be to first gather more knowledge and experience about the game before You will start trying to educate others on how certain aspects of the game work. We've met couple of times in BGs and based on what I saw I think You still have a lot to learn and understand about the game.

StaticWave

Vaqual wrote: »

The constant dismissal of 1v1 performance as a measure for class balance is the most upsetting thing in this thread.

"There is strength gap between your opponents class and your own that can not be bridged by any available combination of gear/sets/skills? Tough luck buddy, bring a friend."

Followed closely by this nonsense:

"Maybe Sorc is objectively too strong, but did you know that a lot of people like playing Nightblade?"

Enjoy your PvP experience.

Dismissing Sorc’s performance in a 1v1 but acknowledging NB’s sounds biased imo. Both classes heavily rely on single target burst. Both classes have the capacity to zerg people down or gank from stealth to a high degree. Yet 1 class is deemed broken but the other isn’t.

An objective player will see both classes as problematic for PvP health. A biased player only sees one, and definitely not his own class.

a_u_s_t_y

Vaqual wrote: »

The constant dismissal of 1v1 performance as a measure for class balance is the most upsetting thing in this thread.

"There is strength gap between your opponents class and your own that can not be bridged by any available combination of gear/sets/skills? Tough luck buddy, bring a friend."

Followed closely by this nonsense:

"Maybe Sorc is objectively too strong, but did you know that a lot of people like playing Nightblade?"

Enjoy your PvP experience.

I don’t think you can use one medium of pvp to state that 1 class is the best, you can for sure use 1v1/dueking as an example to discuss what class is best at dueling but that doesn’t translate to that class being best at all other aspects

Unfortunately that is where we are at with pvp at the moment, no one runs solo, even great pvpers on my server run in duos at the moment and that’s not because of class imbalance but many other imbalances

Don’t like hearing that more people play NB cause it ruins your argument about sorc popularity?

I play sorc and I am enjoying pvp at the moment, hope you find some enjoyment also

StaticWave

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

[

I don’t think you can use one medium of pvp to state that 1 class is the best, you can for sure use 1v1/dueking as an example to discuss what class is best at dueling but that doesn’t translate to that class being best at all other aspects

It depends on how that class delivers damage in a 1v1. DK and Plar are very good in duels, but aren't really lethal for OW outside of specific builds because their damage is mostly pressure with some form of burst. In a 1v1 you have more freedom to deliver that pressure but in GvG or Cyrodiil you don't have those precious 10 seconds to deliver your pressure. To be effective in OW, DK and Plar have to run specific setups like Mechanical Acuity or super high spell damage and stack several instances of burst damage or hard hitting DoTs to quickly kill someone. (I.E Deep Breath + Molten Whip + Corrosive DK with Acuity, or Crescent + Jab + PotL Plar with 9k spell damage)

Sorc and NB excel at this aspect because their toolkit innately has good burst abilities. Now what also makes these classes lethal in a 1v1 is due to having hard hitting bursts that are relatively high up time. Concealed Weapon has a higher tooltip than Dizzying Swing, and Merciless Resolve can reach 30k+ tooltip damage. Curse also has upwards of 16k+ tooltip damage and CFrag can have over 20k tooltip damage. When the tooltip is high enough and the up time is good, burst abilities can mimic pressure. A DK critting 5 instances of DoT effects every 2s for 2k each after battle spirit (and that's reaching) will deal the same pressure as a Sorc critting a CFrag for 10k, yet that Sorc has a more effective toolkit for OW where the TTK needs to be shorter.

So tl,dr:

1v1 is a very good metric for determining class balance, but it needs to be a case-by-case analysis because classes have different skills and playstyles.

a_u_s_t_y

StaticWave wrote: »

So tl,dr:

1v1 is a very good metric for determining class balance, but it needs to be a case-by-case analysis because classes have different skills and playstyles.

Its a good metric to evaluate class balance in terms of 1v1/dueling but as you say it’s case by case.. what I was saying is that it’s not a good way to argue that one class is overpowered in all aspects pvp like someone said earlier in this post because as you said different skills/different play styles and a whole load of other variables.

This game will always have this issue, some people think the ward change have just brought sorcs up to compete with other classes whilst others think that it’s made everyone switch to sorc / leave the game (based on the comments on this post)

I appreciate your thoughts and comments, it’s refreshing to see people communicate their thoughts and opinions without silliness and outrageous statements

Hope what ever changes they make to sorc/nb are balanced whilst also taking time to bring other classes up to the same level with well thought out improvements

divnyi

Galeriano2 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

And yet sorcerer was buffed big time (3 tiers above). Comparing sorcerer to templar, currently I don't really see any aspect that templar does better.

I have a cat templar with acuity greataxe, shadow mundus.
Did some infinite archive grinding on it, then did the same on my Aetherial Ascention + Gaze of Sithis + Deadlands Demolisher MAGsorc (64 into mag and all enchants), frontbar is lightning staff with soul spammable.

I was shocked how much faster I kill stuff. It's like twice faster than templar in Acuity.
Yes that's not PvP, but I never before benchmarked those two builds at DPS because I was fairly certain jabplar built into pushing crit numbers up would be better at offensive than something that sits at 38k armor stat.

Tbh acuity seems like a horrible choice for IA if You're planning to use it all the way no matter which class You picked.

IA especially in later stages heavily leans towards more tanky playstyles. Also visions and verses can make a big difference in time it takes to kill enemies there. I am not saying that templar is a better option for IA than sorc but there is definietly lot of variables to consider before claiming that tanky sorc is clearing arena faster than dmg oriented termplar.

I mean both are PvP chars and plar has permablock backbar. And I don't really care about how far I can go, it's about grinding those mythic leads.

The problem here is that both chars are tough but I expected plar in acuity to do more damage than bashing magsorc. And when I say "in acuity" I literally mean in effect that has 25s cooldown.

Galeriano2

divnyi wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

And yet sorcerer was buffed big time (3 tiers above). Comparing sorcerer to templar, currently I don't really see any aspect that templar does better.

I have a cat templar with acuity greataxe, shadow mundus.
Did some infinite archive grinding on it, then did the same on my Aetherial Ascention + Gaze of Sithis + Deadlands Demolisher MAGsorc (64 into mag and all enchants), frontbar is lightning staff with soul spammable.

I was shocked how much faster I kill stuff. It's like twice faster than templar in Acuity.
Yes that's not PvP, but I never before benchmarked those two builds at DPS because I was fairly certain jabplar built into pushing crit numbers up would be better at offensive than something that sits at 38k armor stat.

Tbh acuity seems like a horrible choice for IA if You're planning to use it all the way no matter which class You picked.

IA especially in later stages heavily leans towards more tanky playstyles. Also visions and verses can make a big difference in time it takes to kill enemies there. I am not saying that templar is a better option for IA than sorc but there is definietly lot of variables to consider before claiming that tanky sorc is clearing arena faster than dmg oriented termplar.

I mean both are PvP chars and plar has permablock backbar. And I don't really care about how far I can go, it's about grinding those mythic leads.

The problem here is that both chars are tough but I expected plar in acuity to do more damage than bashing magsorc. And when I say "in acuity" I literally mean in effect that has 25s cooldown.

Well You expected wrong than. In a arena where You fight packs of mobs one after another having set with 25 sec cooldown means it will be a dead set for a lot of time. Permablock back bar also really doesn't sound good since for effective IA clearing You want to be able to deal dmg while also keeping decent levels of defense and to go into full defense for as less time as possible so having a separate offensive and defensive bar is not the greatest idea there either. Templar is also pretty mediocre class for IA in general.

Joy_Division

Vaqual wrote: »

The constant dismissal of 1v1 performance as a measure for class balance is the most upsetting thing in this thread.

"There is strength gap between your opponents class and your own that can not be bridged by any available combination of gear/sets/skills? Tough luck buddy, bring a friend."

Followed closely by this nonsense:

"Maybe Sorc is objectively too strong, but did you know that a lot of people like playing Nightblade?"

Enjoy your PvP experience.

I do agree that downplaying 1v1 is a mistake.

I do not put that much stock in dueling tournaments because they are often governed by rules that do not apply in Cyrodiil (and thus not relevant to what I will experience. Even duels outside of Stormhaven are sometimes decided by gear loadouts decided beforehand (oh, I'm going to fight this class or this player, so let me wear ...). So that's not the 1v1 I'm looking for.

The 1v1 fights I come across in Cyrodiil are the ones that make the biggest impression upon me and stick in my memory the longest. It doesn't matter if they are uncommon. I remember them much more than running around Arrius Mine Tower. There are no other variables, so it's ultimately a measure of how the class, abilities, gear, and player-skill performs. So if I'm losing all the 1v1s, but winning a bunch of 5v4s or ZergvZergs or what not, I'm still going to walk away with a negative impression of my gameplay experience and feel something in inadequate.

Vaqual

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

The constant dismissal of 1v1 performance as a measure for class balance is the most upsetting thing in this thread.

"There is strength gap between your opponents class and your own that can not be bridged by any available combination of gear/sets/skills? Tough luck buddy, bring a friend."

Followed closely by this nonsense:

"Maybe Sorc is objectively too strong, but did you know that a lot of people like playing Nightblade?"

Enjoy your PvP experience.

Don’t like hearing that more people play NB cause it ruins your argument about sorc popularity?

You did a good job at missing the point.

Vaqual

Joy_Division wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

The constant dismissal of 1v1 performance as a measure for class balance is the most upsetting thing in this thread.

"There is strength gap between your opponents class and your own that can not be bridged by any available combination of gear/sets/skills? Tough luck buddy, bring a friend."

Followed closely by this nonsense:

"Maybe Sorc is objectively too strong, but did you know that a lot of people like playing Nightblade?"

Enjoy your PvP experience.

I do agree that downplaying 1v1 is a mistake.

I do not put that much stock in dueling tournaments because they are often governed by rules that do not apply in Cyrodiil (and thus not relevant to what I will experience. Even duels outside of Stormhaven are sometimes decided by gear loadouts decided beforehand (oh, I'm going to fight this class or this player, so let me wear ...). So that's not the 1v1 I'm looking for.

The 1v1 fights I come across in Cyrodiil are the ones that make the biggest impression upon me and stick in my memory the longest. It doesn't matter if they are uncommon. I remember them much more than running around Arrius Mine Tower. There are no other variables, so it's ultimately a measure of how the class, abilities, gear, and player-skill performs. So if I'm losing all the 1v1s, but winning a bunch of 5v4s or ZergvZergs or what not, I'm still going to walk away with a negative impression of my gameplay experience and feel something in inadequate.

That is pretty spot on. Also many group scaled fights or BGs can be decided by some 1v1 skirmishes. A healthy balance between classes is required on every scale for a rewarding PvP experience. I hate facerolling an equal or higher skill opponent with an OP kit on my end as much as getting stomped by an equal or lower skilled opponent with an OP kit on their end. It just removes the actual "play" factor of combat.

Jsmalls

StaticWave wrote: »

@Jsmalls




you zerging on magsorc?

@StaticWave

Farming AP to pull #1 on leaderboard (got Emp today during MYM which was fun pulled about 2 million AP in 5-6 hours), had on Echoing Vigor instead of hurricane (as you can see in the images). But was solo just had to keep stepping near large groups to pop vigor.

Pretty sure I made it a point to not go after you, might have gotten hit by a curse before I registered the name.

Were you also with the 5 man Sorc squad? They didn't like me very much, blew one of them up outnumbered then they proceeded to Ulti dump me and whisper me the next hour You were hanging around them a lot so curious.

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Jsmalls




you zerging on magsorc?

@StaticWave

Farming AP to pull #1 on leaderboard (got Emp today during MYM which was fun pulled about 2 million AP in 5-6 hours), had on Echoing Vigor instead of hurricane (as you can see in the images). But was solo just had to keep stepping near large groups to pop vigor.

Pretty sure I made it a point to not go after you, might have gotten hit by a curse before I registered the name.

Were you also with the 5 man Sorc squad? They didn't like me very much, blew one of them up outnumbered then they proceeded to Ulti dump me and whisper me the next hour You were hanging around them a lot so curious.

Nah I was with Sykox on the DK. I lagged tf out during that first encounter lol.

Did you eventually get emp?

Jsmalls

Yeah I had it for a bit, MYM emp is definitely something, tons of fun.

Turtle_Bot

Jsmalls wrote: »

Yeah I had it for a bit, MYM emp is definitely something, tons of fun.

Congrats on getting emp.

MYM emp is a lot of fun. Still remember the fun I had when I had it years ago, completely different to getting emp outside of MYM.

Bushido2513

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Now when every class has access to scribing burst heal, what is the point of ward heal???

Oh, I forgot, without ward heal, sorcerers would have to use scribing heal, so no scribing spammable for them.

Summarizing:

1. Sorcerer was S-tier before ward buff. (PROOF - metallic monk won 1v1 tournament with magsorc before ward buff, whice streak is kinda weak in 1v1)
2. Sorcerer ward was buffed, making it 2 tiers above S-tier.
3. Scribing was introduced, and sorc with scribing spammable sits now 3 tiers above S-tier.

I mean WHAT IS GOING ON HERE? Basically every top PvP player rerolled to sorc. There is absolutely no reason to play other classes, maybe with exception to nightblade, because of invisibility and ganking potential.

And AFAIK sorcerer is NOT getting nerfed next patch.

Once more, WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?

There are a lot of sorcs out there and or at least I run into a good account of them when I play. That being said I run into other classes as well to the point where I don't find myself saying geez there's another of XYZ class.

I have observed that every class can at least stalemate a fight with sorc so I wouldn't say there's no reason to play anything other than sorc. Other than cro every class can bring something to the fight when it comes to sorc. I will grant that stalemate chances are very high and that's no fun but at the same time it means neither player is getting blown out of the water.


I believe that ward needs an upper limit but that at the same time not every player is running an upper limit build or knows how to use one.

All in all there's room for change so the way around but sorc in my opinion isn't miles ahead of any other class than cro

Durham

"I have observed that every class can at least stalemate a fight with sorc"

An equal skilled player playing a Sorc vs any other class except Nightblade its not a stalemate. There are only 2 classes that can reset fights; both are hardest-hitting right and are extremely hard to take down. They are also the fastest.

I would agree with the upper limit if the classes were balanced. You really only have 2 "S" tier classes at the moment. Wardens are only good if you have more then 1 of them. They are still not mobile enough. All the other classes have no way to reset fights they have to find structure or they die! Right now you have also have an imbalance with Range vs Melee this also works to benefit the sorc atm.

Syiccal

Sorcs good and bad are hard carried at min by ward, getting one to execute range only for them to spam 10k shield with a 5-8k heal in the same GCD is way to strong.

Tcholl

Hardened Warden should be put on par with the shield/healing from scribing. We already have skills with shield and healing there, so they should at least have similar results.

As it is, Hardened Ward makes no sense in this game, either for PvP or PvE. No one stated a decent reason on why a player would need such a huge shield in this game, specially with a burt heal attached.

After 66 pages, hope zos has learned something from the player's experience and feedback.

It will not come in the next patch, but changes are probably on the way.

Bushido2513

Durham wrote: »

"I have observed that every class can at least stalemate a fight with sorc"

An equal skilled player playing a Sorc vs any other class except Nightblade its not a stalemate. There are only 2 classes that can reset fights; both are hardest-hitting right and are extremely hard to take down. They are also the fastest.

I would agree with the upper limit if the classes were balanced. You really only have 2 "S" tier classes at the moment. Wardens are only good if you have more then 1 of them. They are still not mobile enough. All the other classes have no way to reset fights they have to find structure or they die! Right now you have also have an imbalance with Range vs Melee this also works to benefit the sorc atm.

So if you don't account for build I could see this being true. But ok let's take warden. A warden can out tank a sorc at the moment due to stuns on cool down, a large heal, and a large projectile shield.

A plar can outheal sorc burst and cleanse curses. You will have a hard time killing them in their domain of heals.

Arcanist just won't die to one player unless they want to lol

DK can block and keep resetting resources and also has a class skill to deal with projectiles, not that they need or use it.

Granted the build matters but yeah sorc burst can be stalemated. Not that I'm saying this is a good thing for the game.

Edit

All players need to find los at some point. I've played my build and a min maxed build and the same things that make any class seek los will work on sorc. I will grant that with sorc you usually want to have roots or speed on your end but those aren't hard to get. You will need numbers but that's the same for any class when it comes to not dying. Streak is a powerful tool but one that is easily negated if desired

Bushido2513

Syiccal wrote: »

Sorcs good and bad are hard carried at min by ward, getting one to execute range only for them to spam 10k shield with a 5-8k heal in the same GCD is way to strong.

Personally I kill bad sorcs all the time and I observe other classes doing the same. To be fair though a good sorc with an optimized build can be quite the pain.

Galeriano2

Tcholl wrote: »

Hardened Warden should be put on par with the shield/healing from scribing. We already have skills with shield and healing there, so they should at least have similar results.

As it is, Hardened Ward makes no sense in this game, either for PvP or PvE. No one stated a decent reason on why a player would need such a huge shield in this game, specially with a burt heal attached.

After 66 pages, hope zos has learned something from the player's experience and feedback.

It will not come in the next patch, but changes are probably on the way.

Here is an idea. Make a classic magsorc setup and switch hardened ward for a shield/healing ability from scribing. Tell us how it went. If You think that these abilities are more than enough for shield based sorc You should have no issues playing with them.

Hardened ward current state just hides the underlying issues of sorc class that were causing magsorc to be considered as mediocre setup in PvP prior to shield buff.

As for reasons why this change happened there are 2 main ones. First is mentioned already mediocre state of magsorc in PvP prior to the changce. Second reason is arcanist arrtival and the fact arcanist recived a big shield with a heal which at release was way better than sorc's shield at that time making big part of sorc's identity to fade away. Instead of updating sorc's kit and nerfing arcanist's shield ZoS decided to just overbuff sorc shield and call it a day.

Tcholl

I cannot speak about the general state of the sorc, to be honest. However, scribing is what everyone have for shield plus burst heal, with maybe the exception of some arcanist skill. Another option is to give everyone else hardened ward through scribing. This would be even worst for PvP, but maybe the few resistant players would agree how boring this skill is.

I can also say that most players avoid sorcs because many of them keep streaking and spamming hardened ward like there is no tomorrow.

StaticWave

I'm currently using Healing Soul on stam sorc and it's a massive difference in survivability. I still don't understand why mag sorcs REFUSE to run Healing Soul when almost every other class has already slotted it for its main burst heal.

The only possible explanation is Hardened Ward is busted and nothing can change this fact. A 20k burst heal tooltip with keep buff can never replace a 30k shield tooltip + a 10k burst heal tooltip with keep buff. With Battle Spirit, that's a 9.5k non crit burst heal versus a 15k shield + 4.5k non crit burst heal. That shield is as fat as Nibenay monster set which is used to counter some of the most cancerous combos in the game (Javelin + Meteor, Rush of Agony + ult bomb).

This is why mag sorcs still refuse to stack spell damage and slot a normal burst heal. They'll continue to use this for their arguments when the game has given them plenty of tools to deviate from the 10 year-old playstyle. At this point, they are intentionally not adapting, which makes it their problem, not ours. Hardened Ward needs to be nerfed for balance, plain and simple.