Bushido2513 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »
They can, takes pvp ability and skill, cloak is like shield if you only rely on that you are screwed. I see plenty of good NB players 1vxing and face tanking multiple people.. it’s all about who are your opponents.. unfortunately for Cyro as a veteran it’s easy to pick out who are new to pvp or lack skill
The same nb will know he can face tank 4 bad players whilst opting use cloak to kite/reposition against better players.. it’s the same with magsorc.. a shield won’t help you against good players and streak is used for repositioning/kiting
Yeah didn't see this before but yeah I've met nbs that can definitely face tank but I will admit it's more work than 1 maybe 2 buttons. NB has to keep a rotation up.
Also different people are saying they do or don't see sorcs so I'm going to say maybe consider time that you play, where you play, and platform. These can ask factor into how many sorcs you do or don't see.
Surviving on any class takes more then 1/2 buttons specially sorc.. I’m constantly rebuffing, knowing when to darkdeal, when to streak, when to shield & when to rlll dodge, any magsorc that is just relying on 2 buttons (I’m guessing streak and shield) won’t last long
xylena_lazarow wrote: »Have you read the previous nigh two thousand posts? You're late to the party and basically saying your experience is biased by being a MagSorc main, limited in scope and not competitive, and pure perception no data. Nobody cares what 4 bad players do, they aren't running coherent builds or strats, they die to npcs and that doesn't make npcs op.I play magsorc, (Cyro only, no dueling, no bgs) I face way more nightblades/dks/arcanist/melee sorcs.. In fact fighting magsorcs is rare for me, specially good ones... The same nb will know he can face tank 4 bad players... I’m interested in peoples opinions and thoughts but your comments brought nothing to the conversation in my opinion
Absolutely right. There are campaigns which have 20% sorcs and 30% NBs and there are campaigns where it's almost the opposite.Bushido2513 wrote: »Also different people are saying they do or don't see sorcs so I'm going to say maybe consider time that you play, where you play, and platform. These can ask factor into how many sorcs you do or don't see.
It is funny how ppl try to defend Ward lecturing about personal skill. Hardened Ward is available to all players, with or without skill and to all possible builds.
The issue is the shield, which is up to 75 percent of the health, plus a burst heal. You can compare to a few other skills, maybe an arcanist shield or whatever, but everyone knows that sorcs ALSO have huge mobility (streak) and are causing way too much ranged burst damage compared to other classes. It just adds to the tank/healing meta that makes so many players leave pvp in eso everyday.
It is eazy to note that the only ones defending the change to this skill are a few sorc mains. Everyone else is on the same page, which is the reason this post is still ongoing. Not only in the forums, players are complaining about the hardened ward on youtube and reddit.
Do you really want to keep a buff to your class at expense of players leaving pvp? Because, this is exactly what is happening.
Absolutely right. There are campaigns which have 20% sorcs and 30% NBs and there are campaigns where it's almost the opposite.Bushido2513 wrote: »Also different people are saying they do or don't see sorcs so I'm going to say maybe consider time that you play, where you play, and platform. These can ask factor into how many sorcs you do or don't see.
That is the main reason why I take all 4 CP campaigns and publish the mean - and that's what I got for U42:
(Tcholls campaign btw hits exactly the mean )I desided before I counted the data to stop the count on 28.07, because the influence of the Event was already very easy to see and many ppl pushed their AP in 3 days almost like in the 3 weeks before. So I desided not to wait more days, because I'm not interested in the event effects which I analyzed already at MYM in 2022+2023 and they always were to different to the non-event-population. (which is my focus)
Thats's the same reason, why I already stop with U42 and I will not count the next campaign at all...
StaticWave wrote: »It is funny how ppl try to defend Ward lecturing about personal skill. Hardened Ward is available to all players, with or without skill and to all possible builds.
The issue is the shield, which is up to 75 percent of the health, plus a burst heal. You can compare to a few other skills, maybe an arcanist shield or whatever, but everyone knows that sorcs ALSO have huge mobility (streak) and are causing way too much ranged burst damage compared to other classes. It just adds to the tank/healing meta that makes so many players leave pvp in eso everyday.
It is eazy to note that the only ones defending the change to this skill are a few sorc mains. Everyone else is on the same page, which is the reason this post is still ongoing. Not only in the forums, players are complaining about the hardened ward on youtube and reddit.
Do you really want to keep a buff to your class at expense of players leaving pvp? Because, this is exactly what is happening.
I’ve yet to hear anyone say Ward is balanced in game. It’s almost the complete opposite. I either hear “Sorc is broken” or “Ward is broken” lol. In fact, last week someone in Cyrodiil whispered me and said “props for not using Ward like the others”.
After 6 months, it’s VERY clear what the community feels about this ability. What’s alarming is it didn’t really need 6 months to reach this conclusion. 1 hour of PvP is enough to understand how overperforming Ward is haha.
I tried that in the beginning (like I tried a lot of other stuff too - using Top101-200 or Top100 per alliance and more) and even with the best method to weight them, the difference was so small that I desided against any weight.xylena_lazarow wrote: »
StaticWave wrote: »It is funny how ppl try to defend Ward lecturing about personal skill. Hardened Ward is available to all players, with or without skill and to all possible builds.
The issue is the shield, which is up to 75 percent of the health, plus a burst heal. You can compare to a few other skills, maybe an arcanist shield or whatever, but everyone knows that sorcs ALSO have huge mobility (streak) and are causing way too much ranged burst damage compared to other classes. It just adds to the tank/healing meta that makes so many players leave pvp in eso everyday.
It is eazy to note that the only ones defending the change to this skill are a few sorc mains. Everyone else is on the same page, which is the reason this post is still ongoing. Not only in the forums, players are complaining about the hardened ward on youtube and reddit.
Do you really want to keep a buff to your class at expense of players leaving pvp? Because, this is exactly what is happening.
I’ve yet to hear anyone say Ward is balanced in game. It’s almost the complete opposite. I either hear “Sorc is broken” or “Ward is broken” lol. In fact, last week someone in Cyrodiil whispered me and said “props for not using Ward like the others”.
After 6 months, it’s VERY clear what the community feels about this ability. What’s alarming is it didn’t really need 6 months to reach this conclusion. 1 hour of PvP is enough to understand how overperforming Ward is haha.
StaticWave wrote: »It is funny how ppl try to defend Ward lecturing about personal skill. Hardened Ward is available to all players, with or without skill and to all possible builds.
The issue is the shield, which is up to 75 percent of the health, plus a burst heal. You can compare to a few other skills, maybe an arcanist shield or whatever, but everyone knows that sorcs ALSO have huge mobility (streak) and are causing way too much ranged burst damage compared to other classes. It just adds to the tank/healing meta that makes so many players leave pvp in eso everyday.
It is eazy to note that the only ones defending the change to this skill are a few sorc mains. Everyone else is on the same page, which is the reason this post is still ongoing. Not only in the forums, players are complaining about the hardened ward on youtube and reddit.
Do you really want to keep a buff to your class at expense of players leaving pvp? Because, this is exactly what is happening.
I’ve yet to hear anyone say Ward is balanced in game. It’s almost the complete opposite. I either hear “Sorc is broken” or “Ward is broken” lol. In fact, last week someone in Cyrodiil whispered me and said “props for not using Ward like the others”.
After 6 months, it’s VERY clear what the community feels about this ability. What’s alarming is it didn’t really need 6 months to reach this conclusion. 1 hour of PvP is enough to understand how overperforming Ward is haha.
Man props to you for creating this discussion and sticking to your guns and your opinions
Unfortunately all this is opinion and speculation, some people hate it and some people love it, that’s just gonna happen in a pvp game and this is the place people should voice their opinions about it..
I think zos should be changing and trying stuff and shaking up the meta and trying to make pvp less stale. I do think they will change ward(probs to a HoT) I also think they will make some big changes to other class skills at the same time that people won’t be too happy with (probably buff NBs instead)
I hate the shattering glass set they brought in and think it is way more obnoxious and over used then ward and I have given props to NBs that don’t use it like you were given props for not using ward but that’s a topic for another discussion
I tried that in the beginning (like I tried a lot of other stuff too - using Top101-200 or Top100 per alliance and more) and even with the best method to weight them, the difference was so small that I desided against any weight.xylena_lazarow wrote: »
For deeper details we need to talk deeper abouts statistics
And it was a good decision - e.g. on EU these days both campaigns are switching and ppl play more in BR then in GH...
Btw: "dead" is a hard word because most of the time place 100 has 4,XM for GH and 2,XM for BR. So most of the time they are ~50% and not dead...
At the end its anyway not the truth that there are 23,5% sorcs or whatever. And what is the true population? Who should be count?
Important for me are the ups and downs and the relative difference between the classes.
In U35 NB+DK were at the Top and now it's still NB and Sorc is closing the gap step by step.
Edit: I just did a quick weighted version for you and U42:
You see? The diff is not much - but more work - more possible errors - more confusion - different ways to weight...
Btw: I never expected to publish it and I did that for 1,5 years just for me
Absolutely right. There are campaigns which have 20% sorcs and 30% NBs and there are campaigns where it's almost the opposite.Bushido2513 wrote: »Also different people are saying they do or don't see sorcs so I'm going to say maybe consider time that you play, where you play, and platform. These can ask factor into how many sorcs you do or don't see.
That is the main reason why I take all 4 CP campaigns and publish the mean - and that's what I got for U42:
(Tcholls campaign btw hits exactly the mean )I desided before I counted the data to stop the count on 28.07, because the influence of the Event was already very easy to see and many ppl pushed their AP in 3 days almost like in the 3 weeks before. So I desided not to wait more days, because I'm not interested in the event effects which I analyzed already at MYM in 2022+2023 and they always were to different to the non-event-population. (which is my focus)
Thats's the same reason, why I already stop with U42 and I will not count the next campaign at all...
In my opinion it's in no way any significant decline or reverse of that one month later.Turtle_Bot wrote: »Interesting, so the "decline" in NB population from the 1st half of the patch has actually reversed direction and increased back over 26% from its 25.75% mid patch [...]
You are welcome JoeJoy_Division wrote: »TY for the weighted insight.
@Turtle_Bot well the only signigicant thing buffed on NBs through years is passively active skills - relentless and siphoning attacks. And I mean those changes are NICE from gameplay point of view, I wish they actually transformed pure buff skills to active skills for other classes too.
But that change made merciless less clunky to use, thus more people can use it now effectively.
In incap + merciless combo the obvious hit is not incap, incap is an ultimate and it should feel good to land.
Burst damage of merciless should be hit.
Now the other problem is that NB is the only class now that has a unique mechanic. Teleports were once unique to sorc, sorc is still the king of teleports, but teleports are now available in neutral. NBs are gonna remain strong if they would be just able to cloak and be able to kill a single digit from cloak (some metas were bad for NBs because they were too tanky).
Neutral cloak is probably a thing that we don't want, at least I don't see how to make it without being broken.
Nerfing cloak is probably a thing we don't want either, this is a sin on a level of what U35 did to templars.
*shrugs*
Turtle_Bot wrote: »NB received multiple significant buffs over the past 2 years.
Turtle_Bot wrote: »65% of its current damage upfront then the remaining damage as a DoT that buffs damage done against monsters affected by the DoT.
Turtle_Bot wrote: »[*] Offering needs toning down as well. There is no reason for it to be that cheap to use while being as strong as it is. Either make the health cost actually impactful or remove it completely and significantly increase the mag cost to an appropriate value for a burst heal that is that strong.
Turtle_Bot wrote: »2. Make counters to stealth strong, cheap, reliable and don't take away from a build to use them. (unpopular but this is a common way other games balance stealth) OR
3. Give cloak a cooldown to enforce downtime. No other game that has PvP allows for permanent (or even semi-permanent) stealth options without making those stealth options insanely weak, easy to counter or have a cooldown. (probably the least popular option, but also something other games have done to balance stealth).
Turtle_Bot wrote: »NB received multiple significant buffs over the past 2 years.
The list has items that definitely weren't touch in the last 2 years.Turtle_Bot wrote: »65% of its current damage upfront then the remaining damage as a DoT that buffs damage done against monsters affected by the DoT.
Completely agree.Turtle_Bot wrote: »[*] Offering needs toning down as well. There is no reason for it to be that cheap to use while being as strong as it is. Either make the health cost actually impactful or remove it completely and significantly increase the mag cost to an appropriate value for a burst heal that is that strong.
Offering now competes with scribing, where scribing heals as much but is present in any class.
It's only strong side right now is that it is cone skill and not area, otherwise scribing variant outperforms.Turtle_Bot wrote: »2. Make counters to stealth strong, cheap, reliable and don't take away from a build to use them. (unpopular but this is a common way other games balance stealth) OR
3. Give cloak a cooldown to enforce downtime. No other game that has PvP allows for permanent (or even semi-permanent) stealth options without making those stealth options insanely weak, easy to counter or have a cooldown. (probably the least popular option, but also something other games have done to balance stealth).
AoEs pull people out of stealth, and it is the intended way to fight the cloak. But right now you need to span AoEs every GCD and can't pull any other stronger move.
It's strength can be increased - when you get smacked by AoE while in stealth, receive 3 seconds on cannot-be-stealthed debuff.
And for anti-stealth skill variances, increase cannot-be-stealthed time to some BIG number. Like 10 seconds.
As for "ways to counter stealth being removed", good riddance.
Those were bugs. Nothing in the skill description mentions it removes stealth.
Cloak should act in a predictable fashion, otherwise it will be annoying to everyone.
@ZOS_Kevin Has 65 pages of this caught your eye yet?
Where is the CMX or death recap where you show how much dmg he did to you?
I'm very often around other alliance ppl - but when it comes to a 1vX I don't participate in the "hunting".
2vX depends on the 2.
Anyway - imo that post is a bad move from your side... (thats why I dont quote to give you a chance to edit...)
VinnyGambini wrote: »Now when every class has access to scribing burst heal, what is the point of ward heal???
Oh, I forgot, without ward heal, sorcerers would have to use scribing heal, so no scribing spammable for them.
Summarizing:
1. Sorcerer was S-tier before ward buff. (PROOF - metallic monk won 1v1 tournament with magsorc before ward buff, whice streak is kinda weak in 1v1)
2. Sorcerer ward was buffed, making it 2 tiers above S-tier.
3. Scribing was introduced, and sorc with scribing spammable sits now 3 tiers above S-tier.
I mean WHAT IS GOING ON HERE? Basically every top PvP player rerolled to sorc. There is absolutely no reason to play other classes, maybe with exception to nightblade, because of invisibility and ganking potential.
And AFAIK sorcerer is NOT getting nerfed next patch.
Once more, WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?