Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Bushido2513 · July 30

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

I still think NB is the best pvp class in the game in terms of accessibility and toolkit and this shield buff has just brought mag sorc a bit closer to them

NB can't face tank like Sorc. One detect pot and they get zerged down, where Sorc tanks and streaks forever.

They can, takes pvp ability and skill, cloak is like shield if you only rely on that you are screwed. I see plenty of good NB players 1vxing and face tanking multiple people.. it’s all about who are your opponents.. unfortunately for Cyro as a veteran it’s easy to pick out who are new to pvp or lack skill

The same nb will know he can face tank 4 bad players whilst opting use cloak to kite/reposition against better players.. it’s the same with magsorc.. a shield won’t help you against good players and streak is used for repositioning/kiting

Yeah didn't see this before but yeah I've met nbs that can definitely face tank but I will admit it's more work than 1 maybe 2 buttons. NB has to keep a rotation up.

Also different people are saying they do or don't see sorcs so I'm going to say maybe consider time that you play, where you play, and platform. These can ask factor into how many sorcs you do or don't see.

Surviving on any class takes more then 1/2 buttons specially sorc.. I’m constantly rebuffing, knowing when to darkdeal, when to streak, when to shield & when to rlll dodge, any magsorc that is just relying on 2 buttons (I’m guessing streak and shield) won’t last long

So ok I take out buff rotation because we all need major offense and defense buffs. I'm speaking of once you are buffed and fighting how are you recovering health. I was wrong earlier in that I would have said shield and streak. For sorc it's Shields and dark deal or whatever the correct morph is.

I could say that sometimes it's just shield but at some point when you're low the math doesn't make sense to spend that magic for a 3 or 4k heal alone if you already have the shield.

But with one button sorc can grow the health pool by 9 to 14k and that's I think where we get into the territory of the 1 button doing a lot.

ZOS_Icy · July 30

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Bushido2513 · July 30

divnyi wrote: »

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

How does one “abuse ward”?

You put it on the skill bar and press that button.

Call someone then because I see a lot of skills out here getting abused, not just ward lol.

Is there a hotline to report skill abuse because I have a few classes I'd like to flag.

Tcholl · July 30

I know a lot of skills are abused. Of course, pvp in eso has a lot of other issues.

However, here we are discussion the impact of the ward here.

The point is that using it a lot will keep the player too tanky with low resources/effort/gcd. 75 percent health plus a burst heal is just too much and not healthy to PvP.

a_u_s_t_y · July 30

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

I play magsorc, (Cyro only, no dueling, no bgs) I face way more nightblades/dks/arcanist/melee sorcs.. In fact fighting magsorcs is rare for me, specially good ones... The same nb will know he can face tank 4 bad players... I’m interested in peoples opinions and thoughts but your comments brought nothing to the conversation in my opinion

Have you read the previous nigh two thousand posts? You're late to the party and basically saying your experience is biased by being a MagSorc main, limited in scope and not competitive, and pure perception no data. Nobody cares what 4 bad players do, they aren't running coherent builds or strats, they die to npcs and that doesn't make npcs op.

I’ve read a lot at the start of the post, there were some good points and then some absurd.. it eventually turned into silly comments and statements.. statements like a recent one that said something along the lines of ward being the reason everyone is leaving pvp

I then took a couple month break from eso because pvp got stale for me and I have recently come back and am currently enjoying mayhem.

What I have said previously I have made clear they are my opinions and observations so make of it what you will, I have not in anyway claimed they are based on facts or stats. I’m also not defending ward, I have said that it’s a strong skill and the benefits this has brought.. just trying to have an insightful conversation about ward and adding my thoughts on it.

A conversation/debate is 2 ways, you need opposite opinions and thoughts.. no point playing the biased card here

Tcholl · July 30

Sorry about some english mistakes, but I am from Brazil and it is not my native language. Also, I dont like to edit my messages unless I really have to.

Bushido2513 · July 30

It doesn't make sense to evaluate how healthy something is or isn't for an environment without taking into account the environment itself.

So yes this thread is about ward but what's the comparison?

Can't compare it directly to a heal because shields work differently by changing your effective health. This shield also works differently by providing a small heal.

So what are we comparing this very different thing to?

I'm not saying ward isn't strong I'm just saying that it's not a simple comparison that leads to an easy answer of the effect of the ward change on pvp as a whole.

Even I who says that 1v1 doesn't tell us much because the game is balanced around gvg can still also say that 1v1 the sorc is a lot stronger now.

So I will say if we're talking about ward we're just talking about the survivability of sorc which I would say is overall just as good as other classes.

You take two top end builds and players of similar skill, one on sorc and another on any class and I'm betting you get a higher percentage of stalemates.

Yes some will make a mistake and die here and there but I've fought every other class on my sorc and found at least one that I couldn't kill that could either kill me or significantly damage me.

Obviously I only speak for me and I don't have all the info but from my perspective sorc has joined the higher end of defensive capabilities but doesn't exactly blow other classes out if the water.

Zabagad · July 30

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Also different people are saying they do or don't see sorcs so I'm going to say maybe consider time that you play, where you play, and platform. These can ask factor into how many sorcs you do or don't see.

Absolutely right. There are campaigns which have 20% sorcs and 30% NBs and there are campaigns where it's almost the opposite.

That is the main reason why I take all 4 CP campaigns and publish the mean - and that's what I got for U42:
(Tcholls campaign btw hits exactly the mean

)

I desided before I counted the data to stop the count on 28.07, because the influence of the Event was already very easy to see and many ppl pushed their AP in 3 days almost like in the 3 weeks before. So I desided not to wait more days, because I'm not interested in the event effects which I analyzed already at MYM in 2022+2023 and they always were to different to the non-event-population. (which is my focus)
Thats's the same reason, why I already stop with U42 and I will not count the next campaign at all...

xylena_lazarow · July 30

Zabagad wrote: »

That is the main reason why I take all 4 CP campaigns and publish the mean

Are you weighting for server population? NA/GH has significantly higher pop than NA/BR, which is often dead.

StaticWave · July 30

Tcholl wrote: »

It is funny how ppl try to defend Ward lecturing about personal skill. Hardened Ward is available to all players, with or without skill and to all possible builds.

The issue is the shield, which is up to 75 percent of the health, plus a burst heal. You can compare to a few other skills, maybe an arcanist shield or whatever, but everyone knows that sorcs ALSO have huge mobility (streak) and are causing way too much ranged burst damage compared to other classes. It just adds to the tank/healing meta that makes so many players leave pvp in eso everyday.

It is eazy to note that the only ones defending the change to this skill are a few sorc mains. Everyone else is on the same page, which is the reason this post is still ongoing. Not only in the forums, players are complaining about the hardened ward on youtube and reddit.

Do you really want to keep a buff to your class at expense of players leaving pvp? Because, this is exactly what is happening.

I’ve yet to hear anyone say Ward is balanced in game. It’s almost the complete opposite. I either hear “Sorc is broken” or “Ward is broken” lol. In fact, last week someone in Cyrodiil whispered me and said “props for not using Ward like the others”.

After 6 months, it’s VERY clear what the community feels about this ability. What’s alarming is it didn’t really need 6 months to reach this conclusion. 1 hour of PvP is enough to understand how overperforming Ward is haha.

a_u_s_t_y · July 30

Zabagad wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Also different people are saying they do or don't see sorcs so I'm going to say maybe consider time that you play, where you play, and platform. These can ask factor into how many sorcs you do or don't see.

Absolutely right. There are campaigns which have 20% sorcs and 30% NBs and there are campaigns where it's almost the opposite.

That is the main reason why I take all 4 CP campaigns and publish the mean - and that's what I got for U42:
(Tcholls campaign btw hits exactly the mean )
I desided before I counted the data to stop the count on 28.07, because the influence of the Event was already very easy to see and many ppl pushed their AP in 3 days almost like in the 3 weeks before. So I desided not to wait more days, because I'm not interested in the event effects which I analyzed already at MYM in 2022+2023 and they always were to different to the non-event-population. (which is my focus)
Thats's the same reason, why I already stop with U42 and I will not count the next campaign at all...

Not sure where ya get these stats from but it’s interesting for sure.. NB has been steady popularity across 7 updates.. that says a lot about a class in my opinion

Sorc has always been popular, melee proc sorc (dragon appetite, master axes, vate staff , maarselok) was so strong before the ward buff and I hardly ever saw any magsorcs, wonder what the change in percentage of melee to mag sorcs after ward update

Bushido2513 · July 30

StaticWave wrote: »

Tcholl wrote: »

It is funny how ppl try to defend Ward lecturing about personal skill. Hardened Ward is available to all players, with or without skill and to all possible builds.

The issue is the shield, which is up to 75 percent of the health, plus a burst heal. You can compare to a few other skills, maybe an arcanist shield or whatever, but everyone knows that sorcs ALSO have huge mobility (streak) and are causing way too much ranged burst damage compared to other classes. It just adds to the tank/healing meta that makes so many players leave pvp in eso everyday.

It is eazy to note that the only ones defending the change to this skill are a few sorc mains. Everyone else is on the same page, which is the reason this post is still ongoing. Not only in the forums, players are complaining about the hardened ward on youtube and reddit.

Do you really want to keep a buff to your class at expense of players leaving pvp? Because, this is exactly what is happening.

I’ve yet to hear anyone say Ward is balanced in game. It’s almost the complete opposite. I either hear “Sorc is broken” or “Ward is broken” lol. In fact, last week someone in Cyrodiil whispered me and said “props for not using Ward like the others”.

After 6 months, it’s VERY clear what the community feels about this ability. What’s alarming is it didn’t really need 6 months to reach this conclusion. 1 hour of PvP is enough to understand how overperforming Ward is haha.

I almost get the notion this is platform dependant. In the time I've been playing I've only seen one comment in chat and had two friends say how strong ward was.

To be fair though I also don't hear much about Tarnished. I also don't duel anymore but I recall I used to see more commentary about the game there so maybe that's why I don't see much.

On console at least in IC and BGs z/g/g chat is usually pretty quiet.

Zabagad · July 30

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

That is the main reason why I take all 4 CP campaigns and publish the mean

Are you weighting for server population? NA/GH has significantly higher pop than NA/BR, which is often dead.

I tried that in the beginning (like I tried a lot of other stuff too - using Top101-200 or Top100 per alliance and more) and even with the best method to weight them, the difference was so small that I desided against any weight.
For deeper details we need to talk deeper abouts statistics

And it was a good decision - e.g. on EU these days both campaigns are switching and ppl play more in BR then in GH...
Btw: "dead" is a hard word because most of the time place 100 has 4,XM for GH and 2,XM for BR. So most of the time they are ~50% and not dead...

At the end its anyway not the truth that there are 23,5% sorcs or whatever. And what is the true population? Who should be count?
Important for me are the ups and downs and the relative difference between the classes.
In U35 NB+DK were at the Top and now it's still NB and Sorc is closing the gap step by step.

Edit: I just did a quick weighted version for you and U42:

You see? The diff is not much - but more work - more possible errors - more confusion - different ways to weight...
Btw: I never expected to publish it and I did that for 1,5 years just for me

a_u_s_t_y · July 30

StaticWave wrote: »

Tcholl wrote: »

It is funny how ppl try to defend Ward lecturing about personal skill. Hardened Ward is available to all players, with or without skill and to all possible builds.

The issue is the shield, which is up to 75 percent of the health, plus a burst heal. You can compare to a few other skills, maybe an arcanist shield or whatever, but everyone knows that sorcs ALSO have huge mobility (streak) and are causing way too much ranged burst damage compared to other classes. It just adds to the tank/healing meta that makes so many players leave pvp in eso everyday.

It is eazy to note that the only ones defending the change to this skill are a few sorc mains. Everyone else is on the same page, which is the reason this post is still ongoing. Not only in the forums, players are complaining about the hardened ward on youtube and reddit.

Do you really want to keep a buff to your class at expense of players leaving pvp? Because, this is exactly what is happening.

I’ve yet to hear anyone say Ward is balanced in game. It’s almost the complete opposite. I either hear “Sorc is broken” or “Ward is broken” lol. In fact, last week someone in Cyrodiil whispered me and said “props for not using Ward like the others”.

After 6 months, it’s VERY clear what the community feels about this ability. What’s alarming is it didn’t really need 6 months to reach this conclusion. 1 hour of PvP is enough to understand how overperforming Ward is haha.

Man props to you for creating this discussion and sticking to your guns and your opinions

Unfortunately all this is opinion and speculation, some people hate it and some people love it, that’s just gonna happen in a pvp game and this is the place people should voice their opinions about it..

I think zos should be changing and trying stuff and shaking up the meta and trying to make pvp less stale. I do think they will change ward(probs to a HoT) I also think they will make some big changes to other class skills at the same time that people won’t be too happy with (probably buff NBs instead)

I hate the shattering glass set they brought in and think it is way more obnoxious and over used then ward and I have given props to NBs that don’t use it like you were given props for not using ward but that’s a topic for another discussion

StaticWave · July 31

a_u_s_t_y wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tcholl wrote: »

It is funny how ppl try to defend Ward lecturing about personal skill. Hardened Ward is available to all players, with or without skill and to all possible builds.

The issue is the shield, which is up to 75 percent of the health, plus a burst heal. You can compare to a few other skills, maybe an arcanist shield or whatever, but everyone knows that sorcs ALSO have huge mobility (streak) and are causing way too much ranged burst damage compared to other classes. It just adds to the tank/healing meta that makes so many players leave pvp in eso everyday.

It is eazy to note that the only ones defending the change to this skill are a few sorc mains. Everyone else is on the same page, which is the reason this post is still ongoing. Not only in the forums, players are complaining about the hardened ward on youtube and reddit.

Do you really want to keep a buff to your class at expense of players leaving pvp? Because, this is exactly what is happening.

I’ve yet to hear anyone say Ward is balanced in game. It’s almost the complete opposite. I either hear “Sorc is broken” or “Ward is broken” lol. In fact, last week someone in Cyrodiil whispered me and said “props for not using Ward like the others”.

After 6 months, it’s VERY clear what the community feels about this ability. What’s alarming is it didn’t really need 6 months to reach this conclusion. 1 hour of PvP is enough to understand how overperforming Ward is haha.

Man props to you for creating this discussion and sticking to your guns and your opinions

Unfortunately all this is opinion and speculation, some people hate it and some people love it, that’s just gonna happen in a pvp game and this is the place people should voice their opinions about it..

I think zos should be changing and trying stuff and shaking up the meta and trying to make pvp less stale. I do think they will change ward(probs to a HoT) I also think they will make some big changes to other class skills at the same time that people won’t be too happy with (probably buff NBs instead)

I hate the shattering glass set they brought in and think it is way more obnoxious and over used then ward and I have given props to NBs that don’t use it like you were given props for not using ward but that’s a topic for another discussion

I’ve already agreed on the solution a while ago. It’s a shame nothing has been done to address it.

Joy_Division · July 31

Msybe it was posted ea

Zabagad wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

That is the main reason why I take all 4 CP campaigns and publish the mean

Are you weighting for server population? NA/GH has significantly higher pop than NA/BR, which is often dead.

I tried that in the beginning (like I tried a lot of other stuff too - using Top101-200 or Top100 per alliance and more) and even with the best method to weight them, the difference was so small that I desided against any weight.
For deeper details we need to talk deeper abouts statistics

And it was a good decision - e.g. on EU these days both campaigns are switching and ppl play more in BR then in GH...
Btw: "dead" is a hard word because most of the time place 100 has 4,XM for GH and 2,XM for BR. So most of the time they are ~50% and not dead...

At the end its anyway not the truth that there are 23,5% sorcs or whatever. And what is the true population? Who should be count?
Important for me are the ups and downs and the relative difference between the classes.
In U35 NB+DK were at the Top and now it's still NB and Sorc is closing the gap step by step.

Edit: I just did a quick weighted version for you and U42:

You see? The diff is not much - but more work - more possible errors - more confusion - different ways to weight...
Btw: I never expected to publish it and I did that for 1,5 years just for me

TY for the weighted insight.

Turtle_Bot · July 31

Zabagad wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Also different people are saying they do or don't see sorcs so I'm going to say maybe consider time that you play, where you play, and platform. These can ask factor into how many sorcs you do or don't see.

Absolutely right. There are campaigns which have 20% sorcs and 30% NBs and there are campaigns where it's almost the opposite.

That is the main reason why I take all 4 CP campaigns and publish the mean - and that's what I got for U42:
(Tcholls campaign btw hits exactly the mean )
I desided before I counted the data to stop the count on 28.07, because the influence of the Event was already very easy to see and many ppl pushed their AP in 3 days almost like in the 3 weeks before. So I desided not to wait more days, because I'm not interested in the event effects which I analyzed already at MYM in 2022+2023 and they always were to different to the non-event-population. (which is my focus)
Thats's the same reason, why I already stop with U42 and I will not count the next campaign at all...

Interesting, so the "decline" in NB population from the 1st half of the patch has actually reversed direction and increased back over 26% from its 25.75% mid patch (less than 1% change which is what I predicted, but also still a small, but noticeable increase which is what I was seeing during the 1-2 weeks leading up to MYM).

Just confirms my thoughts from the class feedback thread that if we remove ward from the equation, NB truly is a tier 0 class without equal and that NB is only currently being "checked" because of specifically hardened ward.
Also reinforces the need for huge nerfs to NB (for PvP) at the same time ward is nerfed or we just go back to NB being ~30% of the population and no other class being over 20% (which was the trend leading up to ward going live) and everyone just building even more tanky because there's no other way to play in PvP if you're not a NB.

divnyi · July 31

@Turtle_Bot well the only signigicant thing buffed on NBs through years is passively active skills - relentless and siphoning attacks. And I mean those changes are NICE from gameplay point of view, I wish they actually transformed pure buff skills to active skills for other classes too.

But that change made merciless less clunky to use, thus more people can use it now effectively.
In incap + merciless combo the obvious hit is not incap, incap is an ultimate and it should feel good to land.
Burst damage of merciless should be hit.

Now the other problem is that NB is the only class now that has a unique mechanic. Teleports were once unique to sorc, sorc is still the king of teleports, but teleports are now available in neutral. NBs are gonna remain strong if they would be just able to cloak and be able to kill a single digit from cloak (some metas were bad for NBs because they were too tanky).

Neutral cloak is probably a thing that we don't want, at least I don't see how to make it without being broken.
Nerfing cloak is probably a thing we don't want either, this is a sin on a level of what U35 did to templars.

*shrugs*

Zabagad · July 31

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Interesting, so the "decline" in NB population from the 1st half of the patch has actually reversed direction and increased back over 26% from its 25.75% mid patch [...]

In my opinion it's in no way any significant decline or reverse of that one month later.
So - the swings (vaiance) are much bigger then the visible ups and downs between these 2 months.
The data is just not good enough (to small samplesize) to see anything here.

I just published after one month to have a rough idea how U42 could look like.
But as I always said - not significant at all.
But both month on it's own showed a small decrease of NBs/Temps/DKs and a small increase of Sorcs.
So you can try to compare final UXX values, but you should never compare two single campaigns imo.

I agree that if Sorc gets the deserved nerf - NBs should be get a nerf in the same patch too.
(At the same time I would hope for some smaller DK and Temp buffs and maybe more necro buffs. (I'm interested to see whats going on with them in U43))

Joy_Division wrote: »

TY for the weighted insight.

You are welcome Joe

Turtle_Bot · July 31

divnyi wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot well the only signigicant thing buffed on NBs through years is passively active skills - relentless and siphoning attacks. And I mean those changes are NICE from gameplay point of view, I wish they actually transformed pure buff skills to active skills for other classes too.

But that change made merciless less clunky to use, thus more people can use it now effectively.
In incap + merciless combo the obvious hit is not incap, incap is an ultimate and it should feel good to land.
Burst damage of merciless should be hit.

Now the other problem is that NB is the only class now that has a unique mechanic. Teleports were once unique to sorc, sorc is still the king of teleports, but teleports are now available in neutral. NBs are gonna remain strong if they would be just able to cloak and be able to kill a single digit from cloak (some metas were bad for NBs because they were too tanky).

Neutral cloak is probably a thing that we don't want, at least I don't see how to make it without being broken.
Nerfing cloak is probably a thing we don't want either, this is a sin on a level of what U35 did to templars.

*shrugs*

NB received multiple significant buffs over the past 2 years.

Offering - a 25% cheaper HtD that also grants mending is insane. It's a truly spammable burst heal. The health loss is a non-factor, the 1 time it gets you killed is nothing compared to the 9999 other times the heal will take you from 0 to full in 1 button.
Original Dark Cloak - second most broken HoT we have seen in the past 3 years behind only intensive mender before that was nerfed into the ground.
Incap - Increased the debuff significantly and made it part of the base cast, not just the proc cast when higher ulti.
Concealed - self damage buff that makes it stronger than dizzy without any of the downsides of dizzy (cast time/weapon lock) and it also provides permanent passive minor expedition while on either bar.
Cloak - Major prophecy/savagery on either bar, also more and more counters get removed every patch, we are literally down to detect pots and that's it for reliable ways to counter cloak with ele sus and entropy being removed next patch.
Power extraction - the biggest weapon/spell damage swing in 1 ability in the game (major brut/sorc + minor courage + minor cowardice all on a spammable AoE is crazy).
Siphoning - as you said, "passive active skills", but also burst sustain that can be block-cast (ZOS gutted dark deal for doing this by giving it a cast time but they gave it to siphoning???)
multiple skills that have passive effects on either bar (totalling 6, which is more than arcanist that introduced that mechanic)

As for adjusting NB:

Incap currently feels fine to me too. It's strong and while the debuff is probably a bit much considering everything else the class currently has (for PvP) if some other things were toned down it would be fine. (I wouldn't adjust incap personally)
Merciless definitely needs its burst toning down. It hits almost as hard (at base) as take flight (the highest single instance of damage in the game) but has significantly more damage modifiers available to buff it than take flight has access to. I would adjust it to be say 65% of its current damage upfront then the remaining damage as a DoT that buffs damage done against monsters affected by the DoT.
Offering needs toning down as well. There is no reason for it to be that cheap to use while being as strong as it is. Either make the health cost actually impactful or remove it completely and significantly increase the mag cost to an appropriate value for a burst heal that is that strong.
As for cloak itself, there are a few ways they can go about adjusting it without totally killing it.
1. Remove/adjust the bonuses it procs/provides. Have major prophecy/savagery require casting cloak to gain that buff for 20 seconds instead of just passively for slotting on either bar, also, remove its interaction with the strike from shadows passive since this is another unique aspect to NB as the only class that doesn't require using mist form or invis pots to activate that passive (my preferred option since cloak was still very strong before it got those buffs) OR
2. Make counters to stealth strong, cheap, reliable and don't take away from a build to use them. (unpopular but this is a common way other games balance stealth) OR
3. Give cloak a cooldown to enforce downtime. No other game that has PvP allows for permanent (or even semi-permanent) stealth options without making those stealth options insanely weak, easy to counter or have a cooldown. (probably the least popular option, but also something other games have done to balance stealth).

Adjusting the above for NB, I'd also want to see a few things buffed like Cripple/morphs, Lotus Fan and Twisting Path since they would help NB in PvE being DoTs and ground based AoEs while having minimal impact in PvP.

divnyi · July 31

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

NB received multiple significant buffs over the past 2 years.

The list has items that definitely weren't touch in the last 2 years.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

65% of its current damage upfront then the remaining damage as a DoT that buffs damage done against monsters affected by the DoT.

Completely agree.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

[*] Offering needs toning down as well. There is no reason for it to be that cheap to use while being as strong as it is. Either make the health cost actually impactful or remove it completely and significantly increase the mag cost to an appropriate value for a burst heal that is that strong.

Offering now competes with scribing, where scribing heals as much but is present in any class.
It's only strong side right now is that it is cone skill and not area, otherwise scribing variant outperforms.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

2. Make counters to stealth strong, cheap, reliable and don't take away from a build to use them. (unpopular but this is a common way other games balance stealth) OR
3. Give cloak a cooldown to enforce downtime. No other game that has PvP allows for permanent (or even semi-permanent) stealth options without making those stealth options insanely weak, easy to counter or have a cooldown. (probably the least popular option, but also something other games have done to balance stealth).

AoEs pull people out of stealth, and it is the intended way to fight the cloak. But right now you need to span AoEs every GCD and can't pull any other stronger move.

It's strength can be increased - when you get smacked by AoE while in stealth, receive 3 seconds on cannot-be-stealthed debuff.
And for anti-stealth skill variances, increase cannot-be-stealthed time to some BIG number. Like 10 seconds.

As for "ways to counter stealth being removed", good riddance.
Those were bugs. Nothing in the skill description mentions it removes stealth.
Cloak should act in a predictable fashion, otherwise it will be annoying to everyone.

Turtle_Bot · July 31

divnyi wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

NB received multiple significant buffs over the past 2 years.

The list has items that definitely weren't touch in the last 2 years.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

65% of its current damage upfront then the remaining damage as a DoT that buffs damage done against monsters affected by the DoT.

Completely agree.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

[*] Offering needs toning down as well. There is no reason for it to be that cheap to use while being as strong as it is. Either make the health cost actually impactful or remove it completely and significantly increase the mag cost to an appropriate value for a burst heal that is that strong.

Offering now competes with scribing, where scribing heals as much but is present in any class.
It's only strong side right now is that it is cone skill and not area, otherwise scribing variant outperforms.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

2. Make counters to stealth strong, cheap, reliable and don't take away from a build to use them. (unpopular but this is a common way other games balance stealth) OR
3. Give cloak a cooldown to enforce downtime. No other game that has PvP allows for permanent (or even semi-permanent) stealth options without making those stealth options insanely weak, easy to counter or have a cooldown. (probably the least popular option, but also something other games have done to balance stealth).

AoEs pull people out of stealth, and it is the intended way to fight the cloak. But right now you need to span AoEs every GCD and can't pull any other stronger move.

It's strength can be increased - when you get smacked by AoE while in stealth, receive 3 seconds on cannot-be-stealthed debuff.
And for anti-stealth skill variances, increase cannot-be-stealthed time to some BIG number. Like 10 seconds.

As for "ways to counter stealth being removed", good riddance.
Those were bugs. Nothing in the skill description mentions it removes stealth.
Cloak should act in a predictable fashion, otherwise it will be annoying to everyone.

That's an interesting option for AoE's and anti-stealth skills, hmm could work, but would need a few additional things like increasing the radius of magelight/hunter to 7-10m to function better in the current PvP conditions (positional desync). Would be nice to see those skills (and flare) gain the "either bar" treatment too, make them slightly more versatile in where they can be slotted into a build.

Agreed that things need to be consistent, just wish ZOS would make the dedicated anti-stealth skills better for more than just "maybe breaking stealth" at the same time they remove/"fix" things like these oversights. They sort of did with the detection pot buff, but they didn't really do much for magelight or hunter unfortunately since positional desync kept those skills borderline useless (outside of inner light buffing ward on sorc specifically).

Also, I explained this on another thread, but those 2 abilities weren't "bugged" (that would be something like activating the skill crashes the game) the skills were functioning as designed (entropy had the NB "healing" the entropy caster every 2 seconds and the concussed and chilled status deal direct damage (both of which are supposed to break stealth). It's how those skills are supposed to work and those effects (healing another and direct damage) are supposed to break stealth. The issue was those interactions were not meant to count for those specific abilities because they are supposed to count as DoTs and it was an oversight by ZOS to not adjust those abilities earlier.

divnyi · July 31

@Turtle_Bot I agree that *technically* those skills did everything correctly, but that's not how players perceive that. Direct damage from ele sus, like how in the world it is direct when my enemy is on the other part of the map and it keeps uncloaking you every 7 seconds? Am I healing entropy caster? I don't do that. Entropy caster heals himself by draining life off me.

Magelight is already at 8m. But honestly I don't mind. And two-bar passives part too.

Desiato · August 1

@ZOS_Kevin Has 65 pages of this caught your eye yet?

Bushido2513 · August 2

Desiato wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin Has 65 pages of this caught your eye yet?

Would be awesome to see a comment but my money says this falls into we're looking into it and maybe you'll get something next patch cycle.

StaticWave · August 3

@Jsmalls

you zerging on magsorc?

Zabagad · August 3

Where is the CMX or death recap where you show how much dmg he did to you?
I'm very often around other alliance ppl - but when it comes to a 1vX I don't participate in the "hunting".
2vX depends on the 2.

Anyway - imo that post is a bad move from your side... (thats why I dont quote to give you a chance to edit...)

Bushido2513 · August 3

Zabagad wrote: »

Where is the CMX or death recap where you show how much dmg he did to you?
I'm very often around other alliance ppl - but when it comes to a 1vX I don't participate in the "hunting".
2vX depends on the 2.

Anyway - imo that post is a bad move from your side... (thats why I dont quote to give you a chance to edit...)

Could be wrong but I believe this falls under naming and shaming

VinnyGambini · August 3

Now when every class has access to scribing burst heal, what is the point of ward heal???

Oh, I forgot, without ward heal, sorcerers would have to use scribing heal, so no scribing spammable for them.

Summarizing:

1. Sorcerer was S-tier before ward buff. (PROOF - metallic monk won 1v1 tournament with magsorc before ward buff, whice streak is kinda weak in 1v1)
2. Sorcerer ward was buffed, making it 2 tiers above S-tier.
3. Scribing was introduced, and sorc with scribing spammable sits now 3 tiers above S-tier.

I mean WHAT IS GOING ON HERE? Basically every top PvP player rerolled to sorc. There is absolutely no reason to play other classes, maybe with exception to nightblade, because of invisibility and ganking potential.

And AFAIK sorcerer is NOT getting nerfed next patch.

Once more, WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?

IncultaWolf · August 3

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Now when every class has access to scribing burst heal, what is the point of ward heal???

Oh, I forgot, without ward heal, sorcerers would have to use scribing heal, so no scribing spammable for them.

Summarizing:

1. Sorcerer was S-tier before ward buff. (PROOF - metallic monk won 1v1 tournament with magsorc before ward buff, whice streak is kinda weak in 1v1)
2. Sorcerer ward was buffed, making it 2 tiers above S-tier.
3. Scribing was introduced, and sorc with scribing spammable sits now 3 tiers above S-tier.

I mean WHAT IS GOING ON HERE? Basically every top PvP player rerolled to sorc. There is absolutely no reason to play other classes, maybe with exception to nightblade, because of invisibility and ganking potential.

And AFAIK sorcerer is NOT getting nerfed next patch.

Once more, WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?

People treat this games obviously unbalanced and broken pvp very competitively and only play what's currently meta. Yeah this entire pvp event I've only seen like 3 necromancers in cyrodiil/IC. It's mostly sorcerers and nightblades that I see. It's only going to get worse next patch too when they nerf undeath, which won't effect sorcs that much as long as the shield remains the way it is. You can't even get some sorcerers that stack max mag down to execute anyway unless you run them down with multiple players because hardened ward is extremely overtuned. Pair that with streak and good luck, they will harass you from range while there's nothing you can do to them.