Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

StaticWave

I and several sorc mains who tested on PTS have warned about Hardened Ward healing being a problem in this thread:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/651611/the-burst-heal-from-sorcerers-conjured-ward-and-its-morphs-needs-to-be-value-capped/p1

Too many sorc mains wanted the change to go through without thinking about the broken aspect of it. So here is a screenshot and video of a duel 1st day of new patch with new Hardened Ward:



Only has Ward and Surge, but can tank 4k+ DPS and do this much damage to me:



https://youtu.be/6R6CJvQS7MQ

Got him to 15% HP and he shielded and healed through my Executioner, with only Ward spam. Yea very balanced. And it's not like I had bad damage either:



So yea, Ward is broken and the heal needs to be converted to a HoT.

loosej

Not gonna lie, I'm having great fun on my sorc with the current iteration of hardened ward, but it does feel like maybe they overdid it.

Screenshot while running 59k max mag, battle spirit active:



(healing boosted by 20% Combat Medic passive)

Again, I'm not complaining

Update: looks like the heal displayed in the tooltip is the number without battle spirit applied - the actual heal is 55% of the tooltip - I thought battle spirit reduced healing done but it's healing received, so the tooltip makes sense

xylena_lazarow

Well I don't see any damage procs, therefore this is pure skill and totally fine! /s

But yea zones and guilds are already on fire over "unkillable" sorcs and this problem only gets worse as more players figure out the best ways to break the game with it. Hopefully ZOS acts fast.

StaticWave

I tried to warn guys. Even posted screenshots and arguments too. Now enjoy 3 months of Sorc being broken lol.

sunshineflame

Less than 700 heals per second. I think you should run bastion and major/minor defile. But I'm glad you actually played on live, did you experience what the rest of us have with arcanist since they dropped while you played other games and PvForum-ed?

RetPing

Yestarday I watched some ESO PvP streamers while I was playing another game.
Sorcs, sorcs everywhere .....

StaticWave

sunshineflame wrote: »

Less than 700 heals per second. I think you should run bastion and major/minor defile. But I'm glad you actually played on live, did you experience what the rest of us have with arcanist since they dropped while you played other games and PvForum-ed?

My friend tanked 4k DPS without Vigor or Radiating Regen. Just Hardened Ward, Surge, and occasional Blood Magic lol..

There’s a screenshot of a magsorc tanking 7k DPS 🤣🤣

xylena_lazarow

sunshineflame wrote: »

Less than 700 heals per second. I think you should run bastion and major/minor defile. But I'm glad you actually played on live, did you experience what the rest of us have with arcanist since they dropped while you played other games and PvForum-ed?

This is an ignorant comment.

Arc shields are only large for the initial second and the heal is single use since it burns your Crux.

The new Sorc shield is always that large and always heals you.

Zones and guilds are going nuts over "unkillable" Sorcs and BGs kill counts are already lower than normal.

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

sunshineflame wrote: »

Less than 700 heals per second. I think you should run bastion and major/minor defile. But I'm glad you actually played on live, did you experience what the rest of us have with arcanist since they dropped while you played other games and PvForum-ed?

This is an ignorant comment.

Arc shields are only large for the initial second and the heal is single use since it burns your Crux.

The new Sorc shield is always that large and always heals you.

Zones and guilds are going nuts over "unkillable" Sorcs and BGs kill counts are already lower than normal.

The new Ward removes the only weakness Sorc has which is getting out of execute range. It never should have been a burst heal. I can’t even execute a sorc at 15% HP anymore, even if I spam it. 14k ward + 6k heal every GCD is too much. You can see it in the clip I posted.

Sorc got the NB treatment and is actually better than NB lol 🤣🤣

Jsmalls

I was an advocate to revisit the ward on the PTS and I will not disagree that it's Overtuned....

But we can't pretend that other classes aren't recovering from a fight like that either. Solo healing is "insane" right now, and I regularly fight players in PvP that can easily handle 4k DPS for an extended time (to be fair this ward can handle 5-6k~ DPS from my testing on live while actually fighting back and not turtling).

So yes Ward is Overtuned, but so is healthy offering, so is coagulating, so is honor the dead, so are Wardens, Arcanist, and Necros. They all have GREAT healing.

Yes the ability to reset the fight with streak, having the best mobility in the game, and having ward become this insane defense is a problem. But nightblades do exist in the same game and they've had insane healing and stealth for a handful of patches now.

And vibrant shroud was a bit of a slap in the face (that's the heal morph right?) It has the same scaling as blessing of protection.... An already mediocre heal.

Trust me I don't want a form Sorc meta for 3 months. But I'm still putting down average Sorcs pretty quickly (I'm sure bastion is helping). And above average Sorcs are like above average of other classes, it either takes a combo lining up several abilities or it takes 2v1ing them. But once again this isn't different than other classes....

Healing as a whole needs to be evaluated. At least with the current Sorc meta shields this size require heavy investment into stats which lower your damage output and makes it so procs aren't worth running (they all scale on weapon/spell damage).

And the main population hasnt adjusted to the bastion and defile counter yet. Bastion will be providing an extra 16% damage in a defense tree..... Id like to see what things look like in another few weeks.

katorga

And how is this different from an Arcanist?

Makes sense to me that the two classes with meh healing skills get some healing attached to their wards. Block casting a burst heal is so much more effective than using a ward, that something had to be done.

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

So yes Ward is Overtuned, but so is healthy offering, so is coagulating, so is honor the dead, so are Wardens, Arcanist, and Necros. They all have GREAT healing.

The new Hardened Ward outperforms all of these things, and does it on a class that was originally designed to recover using hots and mobility, not spammable burst recovery like brawler DKs or Templars. The result is as Static said, you end up with a class that no longer has any weakness, to an even worse degree than what Healthy Offering did for NB.

Bashev

katorga wrote: »

And how is this different from an Arcanist?

Makes sense to me that the two classes with meh healing skills get some healing attached to their wards. Block casting a burst heal is so much more effective than using a ward, that something had to be done.

The arcanist skill does not heal on spam. You need crux in order to heal.

ItsNotLiving

The only sorcs I have a real issue with after playing last night have like 4k recov but no damage just forcing stalemates but yeah sorc is very strong this patch and is probably a lil op.

jaws343

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

So yes Ward is Overtuned, but so is healthy offering, so is coagulating, so is honor the dead, so are Wardens, Arcanist, and Necros. They all have GREAT healing.

The new Hardened Ward outperforms all of these things, and does it on a class that was originally designed to recover using hots and mobility, not spammable burst recovery like brawler DKs or Templars. The result is as Static said, you end up with a class that no longer has any weakness, to an even worse degree than what Healthy Offering did for NB.

Designed to recover using HOTs?.... with no real HOTs in the toolkit...

Like, at best, there was Crit Surge. But a heal that requires you to be on the offensive to work is useless in pvp under any real pressure. Especially one that doesn't scale in a meaningful way.

StaticWave

katorga wrote: »

And how is this different from an Arcanist?

Makes sense to me that the two classes with meh healing skills get some healing attached to their wards. Block casting a burst heal is so much more effective than using a ward, that something had to be done.

Arcanist needs procs to do any dmg. Sorc doesn’t, and when in procs will stomp Arcanist.

Sorc is broken and anyone defending it right now is just being biased

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

I was an advocate to revisit the ward on the PTS and I will not disagree that it's Overtuned....

But we can't pretend that other classes aren't recovering from a fight like that either. Solo healing is "insane" right now, and I regularly fight players in PvP that can easily handle 4k DPS for an extended time (to be fair this ward can handle 5-6k~ DPS from my testing on live while actually fighting back and not turtling).

So yes Ward is Overtuned, but so is healthy offering, so is coagulating, so is honor the dead, so are Wardens, Arcanist, and Necros. They all have GREAT healing.

Yes the ability to reset the fight with streak, having the best mobility in the game, and having ward become this insane defense is a problem. But nightblades do exist in the same game and they've had insane healing and stealth for a handful of patches now.

And vibrant shroud was a bit of a slap in the face (that's the heal morph right?) It has the same scaling as blessing of protection.... An already mediocre heal.

Trust me I don't want a form Sorc meta for 3 months. But I'm still putting down average Sorcs pretty quickly (I'm sure bastion is helping). And above average Sorcs are like above average of other classes, it either takes a combo lining up several abilities or it takes 2v1ing them. But once again this isn't different than other classes....

Healing as a whole needs to be evaluated. At least with the current Sorc meta shields this size require heavy investment into stats which lower your damage output and makes it so procs aren't worth running (they all scale on weapon/spell damage).

And the main population hasnt adjusted to the bastion and defile counter yet. Bastion will be providing an extra 16% damage in a defense tree..... Id like to see what things look like in another few weeks.

I put down average NBs just as easily too. But NB is overperforming right? Why should it be different for Sorc?

The fact that Sorc can tank 4-5k DPS WITHOUT vigor is absurd lol. Vigor is always top healing for all classes. Sorc doesn’t have it and tanks 4-5k DPS. They can drop Bound Aegis for Vigor, lose 4k mag, and will still have a 13-14k ward with 8-9k heal.

xylena_lazarow

jaws343 wrote: »

Like, at best, there was Crit Surge. But a heal that requires you to be on the offensive to work is useless in pvp under any real pressure. Especially one that doesn't scale in a meaningful way.

Minmaxing for Surge procs gives you effectively one of the strongest hots in the game and can then be stacked with hots that also proc Surge themselves such as Blood Craze or Structured Entropy. The fact that the playerbase largely does not understand how Surge works is part of what led to all the misdirected calls for Sorcs to have more healing.

jaws343

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Like, at best, there was Crit Surge. But a heal that requires you to be on the offensive to work is useless in pvp under any real pressure. Especially one that doesn't scale in a meaningful way.

Minmaxing for Surge procs gives you effectively one of the strongest hots in the game and can then be stacked with hots that also proc Surge themselves such as Blood Craze or Structured Entropy. The fact that the playerbase largely does not understand how Surge works is part of what led to all the misdirected calls for Sorcs to have more healing.

Oh yes, nothing like a heal that relies on you enemies not using purge...

xylena_lazarow

jaws343 wrote: »

Oh yes, nothing like a heal that relies on you enemies not using purge...

Skill issue.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

And how is this different from an Arcanist?

Makes sense to me that the two classes with meh healing skills get some healing attached to their wards. Block casting a burst heal is so much more effective than using a ward, that something had to be done.

Arcanist needs procs to do any dmg. Sorc doesn’t, and when in procs will stomp Arcanist.

Sorc is broken and anyone defending it right now is just being biased

Tell you what, when you fix all the other healing of the other classes then give me a call. I'm not saying it isn't overtuned but my question is with the state of the game and many things being overtuned how is this any more interesting?

Yes it's a stalemate game and that sucks but it's like you're saying hey ZOS I know you haven't fixed any of that other stuff but this sorc stuff is really broken.

This boost to sorc doesn't invalidate the burst heals and tankiness of any other class so yeah sorc has heals to go with damage now but EVERY class but one can do that so what's new?


I'd understand more in seeing a thread than that said burst heals, tankiness, vamp, etc is overtuned but just targeting sorc for joining the op club seems less than news worthy to me.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I'd understand more in seeing a thread than that said burst heals, tankiness, vamp, etc is overtuned but just targeting sorc for joining the op club seems less than news worthy to me.

Sorc and NB were already "op" for players who took the time to learn survival with mobility and hots rather than burst heals. Now we just have two classes with no weakness or drawback. This is like giving Cloak to DK.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

And how is this different from an Arcanist?

Makes sense to me that the two classes with meh healing skills get some healing attached to their wards. Block casting a burst heal is so much more effective than using a ward, that something had to be done.

Arcanist needs procs to do any dmg. Sorc doesn’t, and when in procs will stomp Arcanist.

Sorc is broken and anyone defending it right now is just being biased

Tell you what, when you fix all the other healing of the other classes then give me a call. I'm not saying it isn't overtuned but my question is with the state of the game and many things being overtuned how is this any more interesting?

Yes it's a stalemate game and that sucks but it's like you're saying hey ZOS I know you haven't fixed any of that other stuff but this sorc stuff is really broken.

This boost to sorc doesn't invalidate the burst heals and tankiness of any other class so yeah sorc has heals to go with damage now but EVERY class but one can do that so what's new?


I'd understand more in seeing a thread than that said burst heals, tankiness, vamp, etc is overtuned but just targeting sorc for joining the op club seems less than news worthy to me.

You do realize that this change makes a good sorc tankier than anything else in the game right now while still having dmg?

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

And how is this different from an Arcanist?

Makes sense to me that the two classes with meh healing skills get some healing attached to their wards. Block casting a burst heal is so much more effective than using a ward, that something had to be done.

Arcanist needs procs to do any dmg. Sorc doesn’t, and when in procs will stomp Arcanist.

Sorc is broken and anyone defending it right now is just being biased

Tell you what, when you fix all the other healing of the other classes then give me a call. I'm not saying it isn't overtuned but my question is with the state of the game and many things being overtuned how is this any more interesting?

Yes it's a stalemate game and that sucks but it's like you're saying hey ZOS I know you haven't fixed any of that other stuff but this sorc stuff is really broken.

This boost to sorc doesn't invalidate the burst heals and tankiness of any other class so yeah sorc has heals to go with damage now but EVERY class but one can do that so what's new?


I'd understand more in seeing a thread than that said burst heals, tankiness, vamp, etc is overtuned but just targeting sorc for joining the op club seems less than news worthy to me.

I know i’m not going to convince you and you wanted this change to go through, so i think we’ll just have to agree to disagree here. We clearly have different opinions on balance.

CameraBeardThePirate

StaticWave wrote: »

I tried to warn guys. Even posted screenshots and arguments too. Now enjoy 3 months of Sorc being broken lol.

It's almost like they don't listen to feedback

CameraBeardThePirate

katorga wrote: »

And how is this different from an Arcanist?

Makes sense to me that the two classes with meh healing skills get some healing attached to their wards. Block casting a burst heal is so much more effective than using a ward, that something had to be done.

How about the fact that Arcanists shield only heals with 3 crux? They can spam the shield, but don't get the healing from it if spammed. Sorcs get both, no restrictions whatsoever.

Oblivion_Protocol

I’m going to be totally honest here. I’ve mained MagSorc from the moment I started playing this game in 2020. At times, I’ve swapped to NB, DK, StamSorc, and even Templar. But I’ve always come back to MagSorc. So, I speak from the bottom of my heart when I say that I, for one, am glad to see MagSorcs getting the same broken treatment DKs and NBs have been getting for years. Frankly, I’m going to spam Hardened Ward to my heart’s content, survive nukes, and watch the hate whispers pile up while I still can.

StaticWave

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

I’m going to be totally honest here. I’ve mained MagSorc from the moment I started playing this game in 2020. At times, I’ve swapped to NB, DK, StamSorc, and even Templar. But I’ve always come back to MagSorc. So, I speak from the bottom of my heart when I say that I, for one, am glad to see MagSorcs getting the same broken treatment DKs and NBs have been getting for years. Frankly, I’m going to spam Hardened Ward to my heart’s content, survive nukes, and watch the hate whispers pile up while I still can.

Appreciate the honesty lol

Kordai

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

So yes Ward is Overtuned, but so is healthy offering, so is coagulating, so is honor the dead, so are Wardens, Arcanist, and Necros. They all have GREAT healing.

The new Hardened Ward outperforms all of these things, and does it on a class that was originally designed to recover using hots and mobility, not spammable burst recovery like brawler DKs or Templars. The result is as Static said, you end up with a class that no longer has any weakness, to an even worse degree than what Healthy Offering did for NB.

Except of course that HotD, healthy offering can target others while polar wind is both self and another. My warden has a 17k polar tooltip with nothing other than 44 points into health, orzorga's smoked bear haunch, DDF and health cp. It heals both myself and another. With major mending procced from having living trellis proc at less than 40% health my tooltip sits at over 19k. On both myself and another, with almost a 5k every 2 sec hot for 10 secs.

StaticWave

Kordai wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

So yes Ward is Overtuned, but so is healthy offering, so is coagulating, so is honor the dead, so are Wardens, Arcanist, and Necros. They all have GREAT healing.

The new Hardened Ward outperforms all of these things, and does it on a class that was originally designed to recover using hots and mobility, not spammable burst recovery like brawler DKs or Templars. The result is as Static said, you end up with a class that no longer has any weakness, to an even worse degree than what Healthy Offering did for NB.

Except of course that HotD, healthy offering can target others while polar wind is both self and another. My warden has a 17k polar tooltip with nothing other than 44 points into health, orzorga's smoked bear haunch, DDF and health cp. It heals both myself and another. With major mending procced from having living trellis proc at less than 40% health my tooltip sits at over 19k. On both myself and another, with almost a 5k every 2 sec hot for 10 secs.

So we’re just gonna forget Sorc also has Encase which has the same tooltip as Artic Blast but is AoE and also applies AoE Major Maim and Minor Vitality?

I’ll take Encase over Polar Wind any time, thanks.

I’ll also take new Hardened Ward over any single target burst heal in the game too thanks

Kordai

StaticWave wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

So yes Ward is Overtuned, but so is healthy offering, so is coagulating, so is honor the dead, so are Wardens, Arcanist, and Necros. They all have GREAT healing.

The new Hardened Ward outperforms all of these things, and does it on a class that was originally designed to recover using hots and mobility, not spammable burst recovery like brawler DKs or Templars. The result is as Static said, you end up with a class that no longer has any weakness, to an even worse degree than what Healthy Offering did for NB.

Except of course that HotD, healthy offering can target others while polar wind is both self and another. My warden has a 17k polar tooltip with nothing other than 44 points into health, orzorga's smoked bear haunch, DDF and health cp. It heals both myself and another. With major mending procced from having living trellis proc at less than 40% health my tooltip sits at over 19k. On both myself and another, with almost a 5k every 2 sec hot for 10 secs.

So we’re just gonna forget Sorc also has Encase which has the same tooltip as Artic Blast but is AoE and also applies AoE Major Maim and Minor Vitality?

I’ll take Encase over Polar Wind any time, thanks.

I’ll also take new Hardened Ward over any single target burst heal in the game too thanks

You have a 19k tooltip on encase with BS with just DDF and no sets? Interesting.