Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Okay, a lot to breakdown there.

First. Dark Flare has a travel time. Back when you could clip the ending of the animation, you could land a Topple and that Flare at the exact moment your Backlash went off creating a burst.

Second, Total Dark no longer exists, all we have now are Unstable Core and Living Dark. Total Dark was an ability that bounced ranged skills back at your opponent, and blew up after several seconds. The skill would detonate simultaneously with your other skills creating a burst.

Third, Sun Shield… we’ll be more specific, Blazing Shield was an ability that would last more than .5 seconds and when you were fighting DoTs you could count down your detonation to time it with your other skills creating that desirable burst.

Now how this all ties in, is that when considering how much burst damage already allotted to the class, it explains why we don’t have a single skill that does well. It’s all spread out.

Our problem is not that Radiant does good damage, it’s that we have several skills that fit under “burst” that don’t do enough damage.

Two completely isolated, independent things, and one needing improvement does not mean the other needs to be destroyed. Templar already isn’t a top pick for trials DD, even with our “super broken busted OP beam” that pales in comparison to Fatecarver, a skill that shreds regardless of health percentage, so I doubt buffing a skill that isn’t part of the rotation would change that, where I KNOW that buffing Power of the Light will encroach on Nightblade Single Target numbers and get our loudest most populated section of the playerbase shouting in the streets.

Exacly my sentiment. As mentioned in my post PoL would just make the class so unbalanced with a knockdown, spammable burst that is very powerful which also gives breach.

"pumping enough damage into a spammable and something like PoL to make up for the damage loss is just going to create a situation where you will get hit with a very cheap, very powerful duration based attack that is instant cast. in otherwords it can be recast over and over and then smacked with a powerful spammable that brings you down into execute so quickly it wont matter if it has a lower percentage for execute or not, channel time would become almost irrelevant."

" this is a really thin line to tread without creating another nb situation."

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

If they do that there would have to be a significant change to power of the light as well. Having a major drop in rg would hit pve templars very badly. We dont use jabs at all, we drop it in execute so redirecting it to that represents a massive damage loss for those builds. This is why they dont redirect that kind of damage to jabs from rg. Rg becomes our spammable during execute. Its the only thing that currently makes them viable as trial dps currently.

This reply only further proves how wonky the balancing in this game is. One class can go from being incredible for PvE during execute phases but leaves a lot to be desired in PvP.

Also I don't entirely agree with you, coming from someone who also parses on magplar. If they redirected enough damage from beam to jabs and backlash, you would only need to continue parsing until the boss dies, and if enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed.

My point was never to remove damage from attacks, it was simply to redirect it. So theoretically there is a net damage loss of zero as it has just been shifted by which skills said damage is coming from.

So heres my one of my main issues with this- depending on the size of the nerf pumping enough damage into a spammable and something like PoL to make up for the damage loss is just going to create a situation where you will get hit with a very cheap, very powerful duration based attack that is instant cast. in otherwords it can be recast over and over and then smacked with a powerful spammable that brings you down into execute so quickly it wont matter if it has a lower percentage for execute or not, channel time would become almost irrelevant. It would take way less ticks to kill you. In pvp half the battle is draining your opponent of resources so the only way i see that being balanced is by making pol a lot more expensive which would significantly effect the class as many of its other skills are quite expensive already. The other possibility is that they nerf it and other skills get a marginal buff which would hurt the class further. Part of ro is that it is a channel, depends on ticks, can be avoided in a number of ways, is only viable below 35% and can be easily interrupted. I dont see doing that as being a boon to pvp overall, personally i think it would create even less balance.


And as far as a full damage pve plar- what is the point of even having an execute at all if jabs is going to be more powerful to that level? Your effectively talking about trading 2 usable but underpowered skills for making one absolutely useless.

Look id love to see temps get some power come back to the class prior to execute but this is a really thin line to tread without creating another nb situation. Jabs should definitely get a buff but as far as what is being purposed to do that...if they plan to change ro I dont think thats the way to go and i definitely would never be in favor of something that makes it essentially irrelevant.

What I meant by my post was to direct the damage from beam where it is overperforming. Hitting like 150k on a parse dummy in one tick of the execute is obviously a bit much, and bringing it down to other executes would just make sense. There would still be a reason to use the execute but you would have to keep up other abilities such as Backlash, which would now have even more damage to make up for the change in beam.

Not once did I say to entirely gut beam, I said to take some of its damage and put it on abilities that are lacking. I've seen crit ticks on beam hit in pvp for 17k dmg, meanwhile an average crit from backlash is anywhere from 4-6k, and for it to hit 6k you need to parse someone with their buffs down nonstop.

And even if the ability itself was gutted, add it to the list of things templar has that is also useless, like blazing shield. The class is desperate for some changes, and its obvious that they have no intentions on changing anything, so my thought process was to simply move damage from an ability that is commonly being brought up when talking about overperforming abilities, and move it to ones that are underperforming.

You entirely missed what my reasoning is that I am extremely hesitant about the kind of change you suggested.


Directly from your above post - "If enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed."

Once more: I do believe the class needs to be revisited and adjustments made however i believe your solution is too simplistic and doesnt consider the ramifications. One further point: you suggest bringing it into line with other executes. Well why would anyone even use it then? Its just too risky. You are just too vulnerable with it being a channel. It wouldn't be worthwile relative to payout.

Replying to bolded section. Especially the part "Why would anyone use it?"

First off, people would still use it for those who want to remain being beambots or rangeplars in PvP.

The way you write these replies are as if Templar was struggling without beam, when it absolutely wasn't. During High isle, in PvP beam was still an okay ability to use, but it was just outshined by jabs and backlash, which was a perfect idea, with emphasis on the word "Idea" because the execution of this idea was flawed.

Even from a Templar main in PvP, I can wholeheartedly say that 20k backlash is way too much, and it shouldn't do that, but it also shouldn't struggle to get 6k.
Using a ranged execute while being on a melee build is just wrong, which is something plars are forced into doing now, and your response of "why would anyone use it" on a jabplar, no one would. Which is exactly what my goal is. Let jabplars do good burst damage without then having to rely on a ranged execute to secure the kill.

And for PvE, watch some parse videos from High Isle, they do not use beam and I've still seen people hit 130k dps. Those who did use beam just started using it at 25% rather than 50% and their dps was still very good. All that the beam changes have done, is make Templar's parse more brainless.

So just to be clear you are admittedly contradicting yourself and you want to make an execute useless. Ok. I am quite familar with what they were capable of in high isle, thanks. You act as if you are the only one with experience with the class. Maybe you could clarify why on earth you think a ranged execute on a melee class is wrong. That makes utterly no sense.it allows viable builds for both ranged AND melee plars with execute being ranged, making jabs the stronger option means melee would have a distinct advantage. NB has a ranged execute when it is a class that absolutely suffers with only being able to use its class ultis in melee? There was a reason plar had those 2 abilities nerfed, they were way overperforming in pvp for exactly the same reasons i pointed out would happen again. To take enough from beam to balance out the damage loss would create exactly that situation all over again. Factually beam would be a terrible execute compared to every other because of the channel time. Its a joke to suggest otherwise.

Not once did I say make the beam useless. Even if I said anything remotely close to that, my point was "even if it was made useless, jab plars would STILL have more fun".

You make points about ranged magblades being forced to use incap, you raise this point like I had been defending it? I agree that a ranged build should not be forced to use melee abilities. Same for melee builds, they should not be forced to use ranged abilities, what about this makes "utterly no sense" as you stated.

The reason beam can be bashed is because it is a RANGED execute. You use it from range so that people cannot bash you out of it. So why on earth would I use an ability that is not meant to be used in melee range, on a melee build?

The way you write your reply is very.. very incorrect. Crushing weapon and elemental weapon is an extremely strong spammable for ranged templars, having a buff to backlash would only help rangeplars, reigning back the damage of beam is what would make it more balanced. How would buffing jabs affect rangeplar at all? It already has a good spammable. The only difference it would make is that now both rangeplar and jabplar are both viable. Jabplar would have no "distinct" advantage over rangeplar. To be honest it would still probably be rangeplar that has the advantage like it does right now.

I said reverting the damage of beam to a time when it was useable, not annoyingly strong, and to a time when jabplars werent forced to use ranged executes and could actually rely on their MELEE abilities to secure kills reliably.

Here's two videos for you,
[Snip]

[Snip]

Both have beam, this was before it was buffed and its still working fine, except now ranged builds have the option to use it, and melee builds are not FORCED to use it

[Snip]

Dekrypted wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Okay, a lot to breakdown there.

First. Dark Flare has a travel time. Back when you could clip the ending of the animation, you could land a Topple and that Flare at the exact moment your Backlash went off creating a burst.

Second, Total Dark no longer exists, all we have now are Unstable Core and Living Dark. Total Dark was an ability that bounced ranged skills back at your opponent, and blew up after several seconds. The skill would detonate simultaneously with your other skills creating a burst.

Third, Sun Shield… we’ll be more specific, Blazing Shield was an ability that would last more than .5 seconds and when you were fighting DoTs you could count down your detonation to time it with your other skills creating that desirable burst.

Now how this all ties in, is that when considering how much burst damage already allotted to the class, it explains why we don’t have a single skill that does well. It’s all spread out.

Our problem is not that Radiant does good damage, it’s that we have several skills that fit under “burst” that don’t do enough damage.

Two completely isolated, independent things, and one needing improvement does not mean the other needs to be destroyed. Templar already isn’t a top pick for trials DD, even with our “super broken busted OP beam” that pales in comparison to Fatecarver, a skill that shreds regardless of health percentage, so I doubt buffing a skill that isn’t part of the rotation would change that, where I KNOW that buffing Power of the Light will encroach on Nightblade Single Target numbers and get our loudest most populated section of the playerbase shouting in the streets.

Exacly my sentiment. As mentioned in my post PoL would just make the class so unbalanced with a knockdown, spammable burst that is very powerful which also gives breach.

"pumping enough damage into a spammable and something like PoL to make up for the damage loss is just going to create a situation where you will get hit with a very cheap, very powerful duration based attack that is instant cast. in otherwords it can be recast over and over and then smacked with a powerful spammable that brings you down into execute so quickly it wont matter if it has a lower percentage for execute or not, channel time would become almost irrelevant."

" this is a really thin line to tread without creating another nb situation."

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

If they do that there would have to be a significant change to power of the light as well. Having a major drop in rg would hit pve templars very badly. We dont use jabs at all, we drop it in execute so redirecting it to that represents a massive damage loss for those builds. This is why they dont redirect that kind of damage to jabs from rg. Rg becomes our spammable during execute. Its the only thing that currently makes them viable as trial dps currently.

This reply only further proves how wonky the balancing in this game is. One class can go from being incredible for PvE during execute phases but leaves a lot to be desired in PvP.

Also I don't entirely agree with you, coming from someone who also parses on magplar. If they redirected enough damage from beam to jabs and backlash, you would only need to continue parsing until the boss dies, and if enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed.

My point was never to remove damage from attacks, it was simply to redirect it. So theoretically there is a net damage loss of zero as it has just been shifted by which skills said damage is coming from.

So heres my one of my main issues with this- depending on the size of the nerf pumping enough damage into a spammable and something like PoL to make up for the damage loss is just going to create a situation where you will get hit with a very cheap, very powerful duration based attack that is instant cast. in otherwords it can be recast over and over and then smacked with a powerful spammable that brings you down into execute so quickly it wont matter if it has a lower percentage for execute or not, channel time would become almost irrelevant. It would take way less ticks to kill you. In pvp half the battle is draining your opponent of resources so the only way i see that being balanced is by making pol a lot more expensive which would significantly effect the class as many of its other skills are quite expensive already. The other possibility is that they nerf it and other skills get a marginal buff which would hurt the class further. Part of ro is that it is a channel, depends on ticks, can be avoided in a number of ways, is only viable below 35% and can be easily interrupted. I dont see doing that as being a boon to pvp overall, personally i think it would create even less balance.


And as far as a full damage pve plar- what is the point of even having an execute at all if jabs is going to be more powerful to that level? Your effectively talking about trading 2 usable but underpowered skills for making one absolutely useless.

Look id love to see temps get some power come back to the class prior to execute but this is a really thin line to tread without creating another nb situation. Jabs should definitely get a buff but as far as what is being purposed to do that...if they plan to change ro I dont think thats the way to go and i definitely would never be in favor of something that makes it essentially irrelevant.

What I meant by my post was to direct the damage from beam where it is overperforming. Hitting like 150k on a parse dummy in one tick of the execute is obviously a bit much, and bringing it down to other executes would just make sense. There would still be a reason to use the execute but you would have to keep up other abilities such as Backlash, which would now have even more damage to make up for the change in beam.

Not once did I say to entirely gut beam, I said to take some of its damage and put it on abilities that are lacking. I've seen crit ticks on beam hit in pvp for 17k dmg, meanwhile an average crit from backlash is anywhere from 4-6k, and for it to hit 6k you need to parse someone with their buffs down nonstop.

And even if the ability itself was gutted, add it to the list of things templar has that is also useless, like blazing shield. The class is desperate for some changes, and its obvious that they have no intentions on changing anything, so my thought process was to simply move damage from an ability that is commonly being brought up when talking about overperforming abilities, and move it to ones that are underperforming.

You entirely missed what my reasoning is that I am extremely hesitant about the kind of change you suggested.


Directly from your above post - "If enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed."

Once more: I do believe the class needs to be revisited and adjustments made however i believe your solution is too simplistic and doesnt consider the ramifications. One further point: you suggest bringing it into line with other executes. Well why would anyone even use it then? Its just too risky. You are just too vulnerable with it being a channel. It wouldn't be worthwile relative to payout.

Replying to bolded section. Especially the part "Why would anyone use it?"

First off, people would still use it for those who want to remain being beambots or rangeplars in PvP.

The way you write these replies are as if Templar was struggling without beam, when it absolutely wasn't. During High isle, in PvP beam was still an okay ability to use, but it was just outshined by jabs and backlash, which was a perfect idea, with emphasis on the word "Idea" because the execution of this idea was flawed.

Even from a Templar main in PvP, I can wholeheartedly say that 20k backlash is way too much, and it shouldn't do that, but it also shouldn't struggle to get 6k.
Using a ranged execute while being on a melee build is just wrong, which is something plars are forced into doing now, and your response of "why would anyone use it" on a jabplar, no one would. Which is exactly what my goal is. Let jabplars do good burst damage without then having to rely on a ranged execute to secure the kill.

And for PvE, watch some parse videos from High Isle, they do not use beam and I've still seen people hit 130k dps. Those who did use beam just started using it at 25% rather than 50% and their dps was still very good. All that the beam changes have done, is make Templar's parse more brainless.

So just to be clear you are admittedly contradicting yourself and you want to make an execute useless. Ok. I am quite familar with what they were capable of in high isle, thanks. You act as if you are the only one with experience with the class. Maybe you could clarify why on earth you think a ranged execute on a melee class is wrong. That makes utterly no sense.it allows viable builds for both ranged AND melee plars with execute being ranged, making jabs the stronger option means melee would have a distinct advantage. NB has a ranged execute when it is a class that absolutely suffers with only being able to use its class ultis in melee? There was a reason plar had those 2 abilities nerfed, they were way overperforming in pvp for exactly the same reasons i pointed out would happen again. To take enough from beam to balance out the damage loss would create exactly that situation all over again. Factually beam would be a terrible execute compared to every other because of the channel time. Its a joke to suggest otherwise.

Not once did I say make the beam useless. Even if I said anything remotely close to that, my point was "even if it was made useless, jab plars would STILL have more fun".

You make points about ranged magblades being forced to use incap, you raise this point like I had been defending it? I agree that a ranged build should not be forced to use melee abilities. Same for melee builds, they should not be forced to use ranged abilities, what about this makes "utterly no sense" as you stated.

The reason beam can be bashed is because it is a RANGED execute. You use it from range so that people cannot bash you out of it. So why on earth would I use an ability that is not meant to be used in melee range, on a melee build?

The way you write your reply is very.. very incorrect. Crushing weapon and elemental weapon is an extremely strong spammable for ranged templars, having a buff to backlash would only help rangeplars, reigning back the damage of beam is what would make it more balanced. How would buffing jabs affect rangeplar at all? It already has a good spammable. The only difference it would make is that now both rangeplar and jabplar are both viable. Jabplar would have no "distinct" advantage over rangeplar. To be honest it would still probably be rangeplar that has the advantage like it does right now.

I said reverting the damage of beam to a time when it was useable, not annoyingly strong, and to a time when jabplars werent forced to use ranged executes and could actually rely on their MELEE abilities to secure kills reliably.

Here's two videos for you,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNUVQPgQhnY&ab_channel=DekryptedTheDivine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD-VyHxk2BM&ab_channel=DekryptedTheDivine

Both have beam, this was before it was buffed and its still working fine, except now ranged builds have the option to use it, and melee builds are not FORCED to use it

Maybe instead of making assumptions on what I meant in my own forum posts, take a few minutes to re-read what I wrote and ensure you actually understand what I mean.

I give up there is literally no point in continuing this "discussion". Your at the point where you are using off class skills to justify your point. Jabs which is a melee attack is fine for range plars but beam being a range skill in wrong for melee plars okydoke.

Other classes have ranged executes that are not channelled and cant be bashed.

And this is from your post: "If enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed."

Come on.

But any how as i said im done with the contradictions but by all means keep going if you like.

What

Galeriano wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

Just interrupt the execute. On my arcanist when I know I'm about to get hit with a meteor combo, I charm the templar. Stops the beam because they have to break the channel to block the cc, or they get charmed.

I run venom arrow on my bow builds which.... interrupts a channel.

If I'm on a mag toon with my spammable being crushing shock.. it interrupts a channel.

I've even dodge casted ccs to break their combo.

Counterplay should be encouraged. It was at a time. Leaving some additional damage in the execute and going back to how it was with more damage in backlash just makes more sense when it comes to the actual topic of the thread, which is that the burst ability for Templar is buns.

We can talk and circles or agree to disagree, but I don't think we're going to reach any common ground.

What is templar will make sure to be CC immune while performing combo? How do You want to use interrupt when You are stunned and just recived unavoidable combo of backlash+javelin+meteor and it left You with so little HP that 1 tick of beam which hits almost instantly will finish You? What if You are being beam spammed by more than 1 templar? What if Yopu don't have a slot for interrpt ability or if slotting it will force You to decisions that will effectively nerf Your setup?

Counterplay should be encouraged but it shouldn't be forced in a way that if You don't slot specific abilities against other specific abilities You will find Yourself dead. It's already being done with cloak and detection sources and it doesn't work well. Introducing unavoidable range combos shouldn't be a thing.

Moving part of the beam dmg into backlash would make sense only if nerfs to beam or/and javelin would happen and I am talking about nerfs different than just lowering the dmg. Otherwise it would be just creating another broken meta that soon many people would start following and shortly after we would have half of Cyro running on templars spamming backlash+javelin+beam. and good luck with interrupting them all.

Galeriano wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

Just interrupt the execute. On my arcanist when I know I'm about to get hit with a meteor combo, I charm the templar. Stops the beam because they have to break the channel to block the cc, or they get charmed.

I run venom arrow on my bow builds which.... interrupts a channel.

If I'm on a mag toon with my spammable being crushing shock.. it interrupts a channel.

I've even dodge casted ccs to break their combo.

Counterplay should be encouraged. It was at a time. Leaving some additional damage in the execute and going back to how it was with more damage in backlash just makes more sense when it comes to the actual topic of the thread, which is that the burst ability for Templar is buns.

We can talk and circles or agree to disagree, but I don't think we're going to reach any common ground.

What is templar will make sure to be CC immune while performing combo? How do You want to use interrupt when You are stunned and just recived unavoidable combo of backlash+javelin+meteor and it left You with so little HP that 1 tick of beam which hits almost instantly will finish You? What if You are being beam spammed by more than 1 templar? What if Yopu don't have a slot for interrpt ability or if slotting it will force You to decisions that will effectively nerf Your setup?

Counterplay should be encouraged but it shouldn't be forced in a way that if You don't slot specific abilities against other specific abilities You will find Yourself dead. It's already being done with cloak and detection sources and it doesn't work well. Introducing unavoidable range combos shouldn't be a thing.

Moving part of the beam dmg into backlash would make sense only if nerfs to beam or/and javelin would happen and I am talking about nerfs different than just lowering the dmg. Otherwise it would be just creating another broken meta that soon many people would start following and shortly after we would have half of Cyro running on templars spamming backlash+javelin+beam. and good luck with interrupting them all.

Not trying to but in, or incite an argument by any means, but I must say that what you've said isn't exactly accurate.

The meteor combo is not "unavoidable" I have clips of myself avoiding it... many times. All you must do is roll dodge the javelin, and block immediately so that you can block the stun from meteor. Then it allows you to simply stalemate the healbot rangeplar.. which is another issue entirely. Don't mistake me saying this as me saying that the meteor combo isn't extremely strong, because everyone knows it is, but it also isn't an unavoidable win button, where one ultimate means you instantly defeat your opponent.


Your argument of "what if multiple templars are beaming you" can be applied to literally any class in the game.

What if multiple nightblades are hitting execute on me?
What if multiple dragonknights whip me when I'm rooted?

Hey because why not,

What if I have multiple Necromancers focusing me down?

Answer to all of them is, you're probably going to die.

At that point it has nothing to do with the class, and everything to do with the fact that you poorly chose to engage in a vastly outnumbered fight, where survival was impossible.

[Snip] You could avoid that combo because enemies were performing it poorly and giving You too much of a freedom to perform dodge into block? And even the fact that it's not unavoidable win button atm doesnt justify making it excatly that in the future with more burst dmg being added to backlash without changing anything in how javelin or beam operates. Combining undodgable and unblockable stuns both on a range abilities with another ranged delayed burst ability and undodgable ranged execute is just too much.

No that argument cannot be applied to literally any class in the game

What if multiple nightblades are hitting execute on me? I dodge into heal or block into heal.
What if multiple DKs whip me when I am rooted? I dodge into heal or block into heal.

I can also use some stun on them or get away from meele range when this options are not possible against templars beaming from distance since not all stuns are long distance ones and templar execute is 36+ meters range rather than 7 meters like whip or killer's blade or executioner.\

It's noticably easier to Xv1 someone down when templar with javelin and beam is around compared to majority of other classes, especially that templar in PvP adds nice layer of support that many classes don't which somehow is always not mentioned when discussing PvP class balance. Everyone have that wierd tendency to judge PvP balance based on 1v1 scenarios which atm are the most rare types of encounters.

To summarize, my point still stands that adding more dmg (especially noticable burst dmg) into templar kit while keeping both undodgable ranged execute and unblockable ranged knockback would be a horrible balance decision and I havnt seen any argument to prove otherwise. Backlash was nerfed in the first place because around a year ago especially in BGs You could nuke people down like crazy with explosions reaching 10k. I had fun with it but I knew it was busted like hell. I was able to nuke almost everyone with a combo of backlash+crescent+2-3x spammable+javelin+beam. This times shouldn't be back and I say this as someone who was benefiting from it.

Galeriano wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

Just interrupt the execute. On my arcanist when I know I'm about to get hit with a meteor combo, I charm the templar. Stops the beam because they have to break the channel to block the cc, or they get charmed.

I run venom arrow on my bow builds which.... interrupts a channel.

If I'm on a mag toon with my spammable being crushing shock.. it interrupts a channel.

I've even dodge casted ccs to break their combo.

Counterplay should be encouraged. It was at a time. Leaving some additional damage in the execute and going back to how it was with more damage in backlash just makes more sense when it comes to the actual topic of the thread, which is that the burst ability for Templar is buns.

We can talk and circles or agree to disagree, but I don't think we're going to reach any common ground.

What is templar will make sure to be CC immune while performing combo? How do You want to use interrupt when You are stunned and just recived unavoidable combo of backlash+javelin+meteor and it left You with so little HP that 1 tick of beam which hits almost instantly will finish You? What if You are being beam spammed by more than 1 templar? What if Yopu don't have a slot for interrpt ability or if slotting it will force You to decisions that will effectively nerf Your setup?

Counterplay should be encouraged but it shouldn't be forced in a way that if You don't slot specific abilities against other specific abilities You will find Yourself dead. It's already being done with cloak and detection sources and it doesn't work well. Introducing unavoidable range combos shouldn't be a thing.

Moving part of the beam dmg into backlash would make sense only if nerfs to beam or/and javelin would happen and I am talking about nerfs different than just lowering the dmg. Otherwise it would be just creating another broken meta that soon many people would start following and shortly after we would have half of Cyro running on templars spamming backlash+javelin+beam. and good luck with interrupting them all.

Not trying to but in, or incite an argument by any means, but I must say that what you've said isn't exactly accurate.

The meteor combo is not "unavoidable" I have clips of myself avoiding it... many times. All you must do is roll dodge the javelin, and block immediately so that you can block the stun from meteor. Then it allows you to simply stalemate the healbot rangeplar.. which is another issue entirely. Don't mistake me saying this as me saying that the meteor combo isn't extremely strong, because everyone knows it is, but it also isn't an unavoidable win button, where one ultimate means you instantly defeat your opponent.


Your argument of "what if multiple templars are beaming you" can be applied to literally any class in the game.

What if multiple nightblades are hitting execute on me?
What if multiple dragonknights whip me when I'm rooted?

Hey because why not,

What if I have multiple Necromancers focusing me down?

Answer to all of them is, you're probably going to die.

At that point it has nothing to do with the class, and everything to do with the fact that you poorly chose to engage in a vastly outnumbered fight, where survival was impossible.

[Snip] You could avoid that combo because enemies were performing it poorly and giving You too much of a freedom to perform dodge into block? And even the fact that it's not unavoidable win button atm doesnt justify making it excatly that in the future with more burst dmg being added to backlash without changing anything in how javelin or beam operates. Combining undodgable and unblockable stuns both on a range abilities with another ranged delayed burst ability and undodgable ranged execute is just too much.

No that argument cannot be applied to literally any class in the game

What if multiple nightblades are hitting execute on me? I dodge into heal or block into heal.
What if multiple DKs whip me when I am rooted? I dodge into heal or block into heal.

I can also use some stun on them or get away from meele range when this options are not possible against templars beaming from distance since not all stuns are long distance ones and templar execute is 36+ meters range rather than 7 meters like whip or killer's blade or executioner.\

It's noticably easier to Xv1 someone down when templar with javelin and beam is around compared to majority of other classes, especially that templar in PvP adds nice layer of support that many classes don't which somehow is always not mentioned when discussing PvP class balance. Everyone have that wierd tendency to judge PvP balance based on 1v1 scenarios which atm are the most rare types of encounters.

To summarize, my point still stands that adding more dmg (especially noticable burst dmg) into templar kit while keeping both undodgable ranged execute and unblockable ranged knockback would be a horrible balance decision and I havnt seen any argument to prove otherwise. Backlash was nerfed in the first place because around a year ago especially in BGs You could nuke people down like crazy with explosions reaching 10k. I had fun with it but I knew it was busted like hell. I was able to nuke almost everyone with a combo of backlash+crescent+2-3x spammable+javelin+beam. This times shouldn't be back and I say this as someone who was benefiting from it.

[Snip]

Javelin is dodgeable, but not blockable.

Shattering rocks is NOT dodgeable and NOT blockable.

Nightblade fear is NOT blockable and NOT dodgeable.

Turn evil stun from Fighter's Guild skill line is NOT blockable and NOT dodgeable.

The list goes on. So if all these unblockable AND undodgeable stuns/roots exist within this game, why should one that is DODGEABLE be changed?

And no, in my opinion it is significantly easier to X someone down when I have a Nightblade fearing my enemy and executing them for what I've seen hit at 16k crits.

[Snip] I've specifically stated like 2 times in this thread that I was using that playstyle. I was killing with it. I know how broken it can be because I was doing it to the point I got bored of it. [Snip]

Did I get 100% kill ratio with that combo? No. Nothing in ESO have that but does it mean everything is balanced and can be freely buffed? Also no. Using argument that there is some type of counterplay is pretty weak because You can use it basically against every broken thing that existed and exists in ESO so continuing that logic everything is fine and nothing needs to be changed. What was discussed here was wheter or not buffing templar dmg in other places without changing current important strong aspect of the class is good and I think it's not good because a playstyle that already can be pretty effective will become dangerously more effective and propably become a meta, ironically contrary to what You supposedly want. I am not against templar getting buffs to the dmg output in abilities that are currently underperforming but to do this he would also need to recive tweaks to some of his current strongest offensive aspects otherwise it's just repeating the same mistakes that are messing this game's balance since many years.

if You would read one of me earlier posts You would've known I already provided answer against Your argument of bringing up other classes stuns.

is shattering rocks ranged, does it apply knockback and does DK have undodgable ranged execute?

Is fear ranged, does it deal dmg and does nb have undodgable ranged execute?

Is turn evil ranged, does it deal dmg and does any other class except templar have ranged undodgable execute?

The list could go forever and You will never find a combo similar to what templar have if You want to be objective and take all the aspects into consideration. Nothing exists in a vacuum, You can't just bring up other stuns without the context and suggest that everything with templar is fine and he can freely get dmg buffs because there are other decent stuns in the game. If You bring up 5-7 meters AoE non dmg undodgable, unblockable stuns that can be followed at best with dodgable , blockable executes or with regular abilities and compare them to a 22 meters unblockable single target stun with some dmg that can be supported by 36 meters unblockable execute and You don't see the difference than I am wondering is there even a point in this discussion.

I can agree that nightblade is also very high when it comes to a pressure applied while Xing someone but I woudlnt put it "significantly higher" over a templar. Both are highly succesfull at that and fact nightblade is high doesn't suddenly make templar look better. Nightblade is a different can of worms that also have balancing issues on its own. You are kinda repeating the same line of argumentation. You are making templar to look bad by saying that someone else is also good or better at something so everything with templar is fine. This is not how balance works.

Edit

[Snip]

https://youtu.be/RgKu9vYHiGI?t=21981

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

To be clear folks: contrary to popular belief templars can not one tap you from the moon. If you are: in cyrodiil, near a keep, and have the reach passive at lvl 2 you get an additional 5m making it 33. Its not a templar passive, its an alliance passive so all classes can use it for any 28m skill. 28m base execute, same as impale would be (mag morph of killers blade). In otherwords under those circumstances impale and radiant have the same range. They cant snipe you across deshaan in a 1x1 nor across the arena in bgs.

So unless there was some wild patch to their passives thats not listed in any tooltip or pc got some kind of add on that allows for moon shots across tamerial for templars idk where 36m+ is coming from. Feel free to enlighten me

Battle spirit :
Damage taken and Shield strength are decreased by 50%
Healing Received is decreased by 55%
Health Recovery is decreased by 50%
Ability range of 28 meters or more increased by 8

So every ability that have 28 meters in PvE have 36 meters in PvP and it's going up to 41 meters with reach passive.

It can theoretically be even extended further by 7 meters if someone wants to meme around with a Siege Shield ability morph, Propelling Shield.

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

To be clear folks: contrary to popular belief templars can not one tap you from the moon. If you are: in cyrodiil, near a keep, and have the reach passive at lvl 2 you get an additional 5m making it 33. Its not a templar passive, its an alliance passive so all classes can use it for any 28m skill. 28m base execute, same as impale would be (mag morph of killers blade). In otherwords under those circumstances impale and radiant have the same range. They cant snipe you across deshaan in a 1x1 nor across the arena in bgs.

So unless there was some wild patch to their passives thats not listed in any tooltip or pc got some kind of add on that allows for moon shots across tamerial for templars idk where 36m+ is coming from. Feel free to enlighten me

Battle spirit :
Damage taken and Shield strength are decreased by 50%
Healing Received is decreased by 55%
Health Recovery is decreased by 50%
Ability range of 28 meters or more increased by 8

So every ability that have 28 meters in PvE have 36 meters in PvP and it's going up to 41 meters with reach passive.

It can theoretically be even extended further by 7 meters if someone wants to meme around with a Siege Shield ability morph, Propelling Shield.

Thanks for claritying since this is situation specific.

To summarize:

- its non-specific to templars affecting all 28m skills including magblade execute

- It cant be used in duels

Undodgable ranged execute is specific to a templar.

Battle spirit also works in duels.