Templar Burst ability

Tyrant_Tim

Like I said earlier, demanding an ability plummet to make others better is backwards. You’re not developers. You have no idea how ZOS does balance, and have no idea how the power budget is handled.

From my experience looking at skills, which might also be completely wrong… is that their power budgets are completely isolated to their respective skill, and have no bearing or relevance anywhere else.

Now, saying you’re willing to give something up to buff something else, does not strengthen your position, it weakens it, and is not a good way to get people on board.

That would be like me saying, hey guys, I would absolutely trash Biting Jabs and Power of the Light further to buff Sun Shield, a skill that is worse than both of them. I’m sure people wouldn’t be too happy.

boi_anachronism_

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Okay, a lot to breakdown there.

First. Dark Flare has a travel time. Back when you could clip the ending of the animation, you could land a Topple and that Flare at the exact moment your Backlash went off creating a burst.

Second, Total Dark no longer exists, all we have now are Unstable Core and Living Dark. Total Dark was an ability that bounced ranged skills back at your opponent, and blew up after several seconds. The skill would detonate simultaneously with your other skills creating a burst.

Third, Sun Shield… we’ll be more specific, Blazing Shield was an ability that would last more than .5 seconds and when you were fighting DoTs you could count down your detonation to time it with your other skills creating that desirable burst.

Now how this all ties in, is that when considering how much burst damage already allotted to the class, it explains why we don’t have a single skill that does well. It’s all spread out.

Our problem is not that Radiant does good damage, it’s that we have several skills that fit under “burst” that don’t do enough damage.

Two completely isolated, independent things, and one needing improvement does not mean the other needs to be destroyed. Templar already isn’t a top pick for trials DD, even with our “super broken busted OP beam” that pales in comparison to Fatecarver, a skill that shreds regardless of health percentage, so I doubt buffing a skill that isn’t part of the rotation would change that, where I KNOW that buffing Power of the Light will encroach on Nightblade Single Target numbers and get our loudest most populated section of the playerbase shouting in the streets.

Exacly my sentiment. As mentioned in my post PoL would just make the class so unbalanced with a knockdown, spammable burst that is very powerful which also gives breach.

"pumping enough damage into a spammable and something like PoL to make up for the damage loss is just going to create a situation where you will get hit with a very cheap, very powerful duration based attack that is instant cast. in otherwords it can be recast over and over and then smacked with a powerful spammable that brings you down into execute so quickly it wont matter if it has a lower percentage for execute or not, channel time would become almost irrelevant."

" this is a really thin line to tread without creating another nb situation."

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

If they do that there would have to be a significant change to power of the light as well. Having a major drop in rg would hit pve templars very badly. We dont use jabs at all, we drop it in execute so redirecting it to that represents a massive damage loss for those builds. This is why they dont redirect that kind of damage to jabs from rg. Rg becomes our spammable during execute. Its the only thing that currently makes them viable as trial dps currently.

This reply only further proves how wonky the balancing in this game is. One class can go from being incredible for PvE during execute phases but leaves a lot to be desired in PvP.

Also I don't entirely agree with you, coming from someone who also parses on magplar. If they redirected enough damage from beam to jabs and backlash, you would only need to continue parsing until the boss dies, and if enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed.

My point was never to remove damage from attacks, it was simply to redirect it. So theoretically there is a net damage loss of zero as it has just been shifted by which skills said damage is coming from.

So heres my one of my main issues with this- depending on the size of the nerf pumping enough damage into a spammable and something like PoL to make up for the damage loss is just going to create a situation where you will get hit with a very cheap, very powerful duration based attack that is instant cast. in otherwords it can be recast over and over and then smacked with a powerful spammable that brings you down into execute so quickly it wont matter if it has a lower percentage for execute or not, channel time would become almost irrelevant. It would take way less ticks to kill you. In pvp half the battle is draining your opponent of resources so the only way i see that being balanced is by making pol a lot more expensive which would significantly effect the class as many of its other skills are quite expensive already. The other possibility is that they nerf it and other skills get a marginal buff which would hurt the class further. Part of ro is that it is a channel, depends on ticks, can be avoided in a number of ways, is only viable below 35% and can be easily interrupted. I dont see doing that as being a boon to pvp overall, personally i think it would create even less balance.


And as far as a full damage pve plar- what is the point of even having an execute at all if jabs is going to be more powerful to that level? Your effectively talking about trading 2 usable but underpowered skills for making one absolutely useless.

Look id love to see temps get some power come back to the class prior to execute but this is a really thin line to tread without creating another nb situation. Jabs should definitely get a buff but as far as what is being purposed to do that...if they plan to change ro I dont think thats the way to go and i definitely would never be in favor of something that makes it essentially irrelevant.

What I meant by my post was to direct the damage from beam where it is overperforming. Hitting like 150k on a parse dummy in one tick of the execute is obviously a bit much, and bringing it down to other executes would just make sense. There would still be a reason to use the execute but you would have to keep up other abilities such as Backlash, which would now have even more damage to make up for the change in beam.

Not once did I say to entirely gut beam, I said to take some of its damage and put it on abilities that are lacking. I've seen crit ticks on beam hit in pvp for 17k dmg, meanwhile an average crit from backlash is anywhere from 4-6k, and for it to hit 6k you need to parse someone with their buffs down nonstop.

And even if the ability itself was gutted, add it to the list of things templar has that is also useless, like blazing shield. The class is desperate for some changes, and its obvious that they have no intentions on changing anything, so my thought process was to simply move damage from an ability that is commonly being brought up when talking about overperforming abilities, and move it to ones that are underperforming.

You entirely missed what my reasoning is that I am extremely hesitant about the kind of change you suggested.


Directly from your above post - "If enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed."

Once more: I do believe the class needs to be revisited and adjustments made however i believe your solution is too simplistic and doesnt consider the ramifications. One further point: you suggest bringing it into line with other executes. Well why would anyone even use it then? Its just too risky. You are just too vulnerable with it being a channel. It wouldn't be worthwile relative to payout.

Replying to bolded section. Especially the part "Why would anyone use it?"

First off, people would still use it for those who want to remain being beambots or rangeplars in PvP.

The way you write these replies are as if Templar was struggling without beam, when it absolutely wasn't. During High isle, in PvP beam was still an okay ability to use, but it was just outshined by jabs and backlash, which was a perfect idea, with emphasis on the word "Idea" because the execution of this idea was flawed.

Even from a Templar main in PvP, I can wholeheartedly say that 20k backlash is way too much, and it shouldn't do that, but it also shouldn't struggle to get 6k.
Using a ranged execute while being on a melee build is just wrong, which is something plars are forced into doing now, and your response of "why would anyone use it" on a jabplar, no one would. Which is exactly what my goal is. Let jabplars do good burst damage without then having to rely on a ranged execute to secure the kill.

And for PvE, watch some parse videos from High Isle, they do not use beam and I've still seen people hit 130k dps. Those who did use beam just started using it at 25% rather than 50% and their dps was still very good. All that the beam changes have done, is make Templar's parse more brainless.

So just to be clear you are admittedly contradicting yourself and you want to make an execute useless. Ok. I am quite familar with what they were capable of in high isle, thanks. You act as if you are the only one with experience with the class. Maybe you could clarify why on earth you think a ranged execute on a melee class is wrong. That makes utterly no sense.it allows viable builds for both ranged AND melee plars with execute being ranged, making jabs the stronger option means melee would have a distinct advantage. NB has a ranged execute when it is a class that absolutely suffers with only being able to use its class ultis in melee? There was a reason plar had those 2 abilities nerfed, they were way overperforming in pvp for exactly the same reasons i pointed out would happen again. To take enough from beam to balance out the damage loss would create exactly that situation all over again. Factually beam would be a terrible execute compared to every other because of the channel time. Its a joke to suggest otherwise.

Not once did I say make the beam useless. Even if I said anything remotely close to that, my point was "even if it was made useless, jab plars would STILL have more fun".

You make points about ranged magblades being forced to use incap, you raise this point like I had been defending it? I agree that a ranged build should not be forced to use melee abilities. Same for melee builds, they should not be forced to use ranged abilities, what about this makes "utterly no sense" as you stated.

The reason beam can be bashed is because it is a RANGED execute. You use it from range so that people cannot bash you out of it. So why on earth would I use an ability that is not meant to be used in melee range, on a melee build?

The way you write your reply is very.. very incorrect. Crushing weapon and elemental weapon is an extremely strong spammable for ranged templars, having a buff to backlash would only help rangeplars, reigning back the damage of beam is what would make it more balanced. How would buffing jabs affect rangeplar at all? It already has a good spammable. The only difference it would make is that now both rangeplar and jabplar are both viable. Jabplar would have no "distinct" advantage over rangeplar. To be honest it would still probably be rangeplar that has the advantage like it does right now.

I said reverting the damage of beam to a time when it was useable, not annoyingly strong, and to a time when jabplars werent forced to use ranged executes and could actually rely on their MELEE abilities to secure kills reliably.

Here's two videos for you,
[Snip]

[Snip]

Both have beam, this was before it was buffed and its still working fine, except now ranged builds have the option to use it, and melee builds are not FORCED to use it

[Snip]

I give up there is literally no point in continuing this "discussion". Your at the point where you are using off class skills to justify your point. Jabs which is a melee attack is fine for range plars but beam being a range skill in wrong for melee plars okydoke.

Other classes have ranged executes that are not channelled and cant be bashed.

And this is from your post: "If enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed."

Come on.

But any how as i said im done with the contradictions but by all means keep going if you like.

[Edited quote]

Gopher

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Okay, a lot to breakdown there.

First. Dark Flare has a travel time. Back when you could clip the ending of the animation, you could land a Topple and that Flare at the exact moment your Backlash went off creating a burst.

Second, Total Dark no longer exists, all we have now are Unstable Core and Living Dark. Total Dark was an ability that bounced ranged skills back at your opponent, and blew up after several seconds. The skill would detonate simultaneously with your other skills creating a burst.

Third, Sun Shield… we’ll be more specific, Blazing Shield was an ability that would last more than .5 seconds and when you were fighting DoTs you could count down your detonation to time it with your other skills creating that desirable burst.

Now how this all ties in, is that when considering how much burst damage already allotted to the class, it explains why we don’t have a single skill that does well. It’s all spread out.

Our problem is not that Radiant does good damage, it’s that we have several skills that fit under “burst” that don’t do enough damage.

Two completely isolated, independent things, and one needing improvement does not mean the other needs to be destroyed. Templar already isn’t a top pick for trials DD, even with our “super broken busted OP beam” that pales in comparison to Fatecarver, a skill that shreds regardless of health percentage, so I doubt buffing a skill that isn’t part of the rotation would change that, where I KNOW that buffing Power of the Light will encroach on Nightblade Single Target numbers and get our loudest most populated section of the playerbase shouting in the streets.

Exacly my sentiment. As mentioned in my post PoL would just make the class so unbalanced with a knockdown, spammable burst that is very powerful which also gives breach.

"pumping enough damage into a spammable and something like PoL to make up for the damage loss is just going to create a situation where you will get hit with a very cheap, very powerful duration based attack that is instant cast. in otherwords it can be recast over and over and then smacked with a powerful spammable that brings you down into execute so quickly it wont matter if it has a lower percentage for execute or not, channel time would become almost irrelevant."

" this is a really thin line to tread without creating another nb situation."

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

If they do that there would have to be a significant change to power of the light as well. Having a major drop in rg would hit pve templars very badly. We dont use jabs at all, we drop it in execute so redirecting it to that represents a massive damage loss for those builds. This is why they dont redirect that kind of damage to jabs from rg. Rg becomes our spammable during execute. Its the only thing that currently makes them viable as trial dps currently.

This reply only further proves how wonky the balancing in this game is. One class can go from being incredible for PvE during execute phases but leaves a lot to be desired in PvP.

Also I don't entirely agree with you, coming from someone who also parses on magplar. If they redirected enough damage from beam to jabs and backlash, you would only need to continue parsing until the boss dies, and if enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed.

My point was never to remove damage from attacks, it was simply to redirect it. So theoretically there is a net damage loss of zero as it has just been shifted by which skills said damage is coming from.

So heres my one of my main issues with this- depending on the size of the nerf pumping enough damage into a spammable and something like PoL to make up for the damage loss is just going to create a situation where you will get hit with a very cheap, very powerful duration based attack that is instant cast. in otherwords it can be recast over and over and then smacked with a powerful spammable that brings you down into execute so quickly it wont matter if it has a lower percentage for execute or not, channel time would become almost irrelevant. It would take way less ticks to kill you. In pvp half the battle is draining your opponent of resources so the only way i see that being balanced is by making pol a lot more expensive which would significantly effect the class as many of its other skills are quite expensive already. The other possibility is that they nerf it and other skills get a marginal buff which would hurt the class further. Part of ro is that it is a channel, depends on ticks, can be avoided in a number of ways, is only viable below 35% and can be easily interrupted. I dont see doing that as being a boon to pvp overall, personally i think it would create even less balance.


And as far as a full damage pve plar- what is the point of even having an execute at all if jabs is going to be more powerful to that level? Your effectively talking about trading 2 usable but underpowered skills for making one absolutely useless.

Look id love to see temps get some power come back to the class prior to execute but this is a really thin line to tread without creating another nb situation. Jabs should definitely get a buff but as far as what is being purposed to do that...if they plan to change ro I dont think thats the way to go and i definitely would never be in favor of something that makes it essentially irrelevant.

What I meant by my post was to direct the damage from beam where it is overperforming. Hitting like 150k on a parse dummy in one tick of the execute is obviously a bit much, and bringing it down to other executes would just make sense. There would still be a reason to use the execute but you would have to keep up other abilities such as Backlash, which would now have even more damage to make up for the change in beam.

Not once did I say to entirely gut beam, I said to take some of its damage and put it on abilities that are lacking. I've seen crit ticks on beam hit in pvp for 17k dmg, meanwhile an average crit from backlash is anywhere from 4-6k, and for it to hit 6k you need to parse someone with their buffs down nonstop.

And even if the ability itself was gutted, add it to the list of things templar has that is also useless, like blazing shield. The class is desperate for some changes, and its obvious that they have no intentions on changing anything, so my thought process was to simply move damage from an ability that is commonly being brought up when talking about overperforming abilities, and move it to ones that are underperforming.

You entirely missed what my reasoning is that I am extremely hesitant about the kind of change you suggested.


Directly from your above post - "If enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed."

Once more: I do believe the class needs to be revisited and adjustments made however i believe your solution is too simplistic and doesnt consider the ramifications. One further point: you suggest bringing it into line with other executes. Well why would anyone even use it then? Its just too risky. You are just too vulnerable with it being a channel. It wouldn't be worthwile relative to payout.

Replying to bolded section. Especially the part "Why would anyone use it?"

First off, people would still use it for those who want to remain being beambots or rangeplars in PvP.

The way you write these replies are as if Templar was struggling without beam, when it absolutely wasn't. During High isle, in PvP beam was still an okay ability to use, but it was just outshined by jabs and backlash, which was a perfect idea, with emphasis on the word "Idea" because the execution of this idea was flawed.

Even from a Templar main in PvP, I can wholeheartedly say that 20k backlash is way too much, and it shouldn't do that, but it also shouldn't struggle to get 6k.
Using a ranged execute while being on a melee build is just wrong, which is something plars are forced into doing now, and your response of "why would anyone use it" on a jabplar, no one would. Which is exactly what my goal is. Let jabplars do good burst damage without then having to rely on a ranged execute to secure the kill.

And for PvE, watch some parse videos from High Isle, they do not use beam and I've still seen people hit 130k dps. Those who did use beam just started using it at 25% rather than 50% and their dps was still very good. All that the beam changes have done, is make Templar's parse more brainless.

So just to be clear you are admittedly contradicting yourself and you want to make an execute useless. Ok. I am quite familar with what they were capable of in high isle, thanks. You act as if you are the only one with experience with the class. Maybe you could clarify why on earth you think a ranged execute on a melee class is wrong. That makes utterly no sense.it allows viable builds for both ranged AND melee plars with execute being ranged, making jabs the stronger option means melee would have a distinct advantage. NB has a ranged execute when it is a class that absolutely suffers with only being able to use its class ultis in melee? There was a reason plar had those 2 abilities nerfed, they were way overperforming in pvp for exactly the same reasons i pointed out would happen again. To take enough from beam to balance out the damage loss would create exactly that situation all over again. Factually beam would be a terrible execute compared to every other because of the channel time. Its a joke to suggest otherwise.

Not once did I say make the beam useless. Even if I said anything remotely close to that, my point was "even if it was made useless, jab plars would STILL have more fun".

You make points about ranged magblades being forced to use incap, you raise this point like I had been defending it? I agree that a ranged build should not be forced to use melee abilities. Same for melee builds, they should not be forced to use ranged abilities, what about this makes "utterly no sense" as you stated.

The reason beam can be bashed is because it is a RANGED execute. You use it from range so that people cannot bash you out of it. So why on earth would I use an ability that is not meant to be used in melee range, on a melee build?

The way you write your reply is very.. very incorrect. Crushing weapon and elemental weapon is an extremely strong spammable for ranged templars, having a buff to backlash would only help rangeplars, reigning back the damage of beam is what would make it more balanced. How would buffing jabs affect rangeplar at all? It already has a good spammable. The only difference it would make is that now both rangeplar and jabplar are both viable. Jabplar would have no "distinct" advantage over rangeplar. To be honest it would still probably be rangeplar that has the advantage like it does right now.

I said reverting the damage of beam to a time when it was useable, not annoyingly strong, and to a time when jabplars werent forced to use ranged executes and could actually rely on their MELEE abilities to secure kills reliably.

Here's two videos for you,
[Snip]

[Snip]

Both have beam, this was before it was buffed and its still working fine, except now ranged builds have the option to use it, and melee builds are not FORCED to use it

[Snip]

I give up there is literally no point in continuing this "discussion". Your at the point where you are using off class skills to justify your point. Jabs which is a melee attack is fine for range plars but beam being a range skill in wrong for melee plars okydoke.

Other classes have ranged executes that are not channelled and cant be bashed.

And this is from your post: "If enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed."

Come on.

But any how as i said im done with the contradictions but by all means keep going if you like.

Again, didn't understand what I wrote. I didn't say jabs are a rangeplar skill lol.

My point was that if jabs were to be buffed it wouldn't affect rangeplar.. which is obvious.

I talked about crushing weapon and elemental weapon as rangeplar spammable... because templar doesn't have a viable ranged spammable?

"If enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks" those two attacks being JABS and BACKLASH, jabplars would not need to use beam. As using a RANGED execute on a MELEE build is not effective as it leaves you in a vulnerable position to simply be bashed out of your execute, and not be able to secure the kill.

Rangeplars make use of the spammable elemental or crushing weapon, this has existed for a long time. The spammable itself is very strong and reliable. Rangeplars rely on their meteor combo in order to do enough damage to beam people. If backlash did enough damage, then rangeplars could make use of this and burst people simply by building up damage with their spammable and not having to rely on their meteor to do the biggest majority of the burst.

Have you ever played Templar? Rangeplars use backlash and would be able to make use of the backlash buff to make up for the reallocation. [Snip]

Other classes have ranged executes, like nightblade. Nightblade's ranged execute is DODGEABLE, and not to mention just a bad ability when compared to the melee one.

You can be done with the contradictions you think are there, simply because you refuse to actually understand what I am writing. Anyway, have a good one

[Edit quote/minor bait]

FoJul

Dekrypted wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Okay, a lot to breakdown there.

First. Dark Flare has a travel time. Back when you could clip the ending of the animation, you could land a Topple and that Flare at the exact moment your Backlash went off creating a burst.

Second, Total Dark no longer exists, all we have now are Unstable Core and Living Dark. Total Dark was an ability that bounced ranged skills back at your opponent, and blew up after several seconds. The skill would detonate simultaneously with your other skills creating a burst.

Third, Sun Shield… we’ll be more specific, Blazing Shield was an ability that would last more than .5 seconds and when you were fighting DoTs you could count down your detonation to time it with your other skills creating that desirable burst.

Now how this all ties in, is that when considering how much burst damage already allotted to the class, it explains why we don’t have a single skill that does well. It’s all spread out.

Our problem is not that Radiant does good damage, it’s that we have several skills that fit under “burst” that don’t do enough damage.

Two completely isolated, independent things, and one needing improvement does not mean the other needs to be destroyed. Templar already isn’t a top pick for trials DD, even with our “super broken busted OP beam” that pales in comparison to Fatecarver, a skill that shreds regardless of health percentage, so I doubt buffing a skill that isn’t part of the rotation would change that, where I KNOW that buffing Power of the Light will encroach on Nightblade Single Target numbers and get our loudest most populated section of the playerbase shouting in the streets.

Exacly my sentiment. As mentioned in my post PoL would just make the class so unbalanced with a knockdown, spammable burst that is very powerful which also gives breach.

"pumping enough damage into a spammable and something like PoL to make up for the damage loss is just going to create a situation where you will get hit with a very cheap, very powerful duration based attack that is instant cast. in otherwords it can be recast over and over and then smacked with a powerful spammable that brings you down into execute so quickly it wont matter if it has a lower percentage for execute or not, channel time would become almost irrelevant."

" this is a really thin line to tread without creating another nb situation."

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

If they do that there would have to be a significant change to power of the light as well. Having a major drop in rg would hit pve templars very badly. We dont use jabs at all, we drop it in execute so redirecting it to that represents a massive damage loss for those builds. This is why they dont redirect that kind of damage to jabs from rg. Rg becomes our spammable during execute. Its the only thing that currently makes them viable as trial dps currently.

This reply only further proves how wonky the balancing in this game is. One class can go from being incredible for PvE during execute phases but leaves a lot to be desired in PvP.

Also I don't entirely agree with you, coming from someone who also parses on magplar. If they redirected enough damage from beam to jabs and backlash, you would only need to continue parsing until the boss dies, and if enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed.

My point was never to remove damage from attacks, it was simply to redirect it. So theoretically there is a net damage loss of zero as it has just been shifted by which skills said damage is coming from.

So heres my one of my main issues with this- depending on the size of the nerf pumping enough damage into a spammable and something like PoL to make up for the damage loss is just going to create a situation where you will get hit with a very cheap, very powerful duration based attack that is instant cast. in otherwords it can be recast over and over and then smacked with a powerful spammable that brings you down into execute so quickly it wont matter if it has a lower percentage for execute or not, channel time would become almost irrelevant. It would take way less ticks to kill you. In pvp half the battle is draining your opponent of resources so the only way i see that being balanced is by making pol a lot more expensive which would significantly effect the class as many of its other skills are quite expensive already. The other possibility is that they nerf it and other skills get a marginal buff which would hurt the class further. Part of ro is that it is a channel, depends on ticks, can be avoided in a number of ways, is only viable below 35% and can be easily interrupted. I dont see doing that as being a boon to pvp overall, personally i think it would create even less balance.


And as far as a full damage pve plar- what is the point of even having an execute at all if jabs is going to be more powerful to that level? Your effectively talking about trading 2 usable but underpowered skills for making one absolutely useless.

Look id love to see temps get some power come back to the class prior to execute but this is a really thin line to tread without creating another nb situation. Jabs should definitely get a buff but as far as what is being purposed to do that...if they plan to change ro I dont think thats the way to go and i definitely would never be in favor of something that makes it essentially irrelevant.

What I meant by my post was to direct the damage from beam where it is overperforming. Hitting like 150k on a parse dummy in one tick of the execute is obviously a bit much, and bringing it down to other executes would just make sense. There would still be a reason to use the execute but you would have to keep up other abilities such as Backlash, which would now have even more damage to make up for the change in beam.

Not once did I say to entirely gut beam, I said to take some of its damage and put it on abilities that are lacking. I've seen crit ticks on beam hit in pvp for 17k dmg, meanwhile an average crit from backlash is anywhere from 4-6k, and for it to hit 6k you need to parse someone with their buffs down nonstop.

And even if the ability itself was gutted, add it to the list of things templar has that is also useless, like blazing shield. The class is desperate for some changes, and its obvious that they have no intentions on changing anything, so my thought process was to simply move damage from an ability that is commonly being brought up when talking about overperforming abilities, and move it to ones that are underperforming.

You entirely missed what my reasoning is that I am extremely hesitant about the kind of change you suggested.


Directly from your above post - "If enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed."

Once more: I do believe the class needs to be revisited and adjustments made however i believe your solution is too simplistic and doesnt consider the ramifications. One further point: you suggest bringing it into line with other executes. Well why would anyone even use it then? Its just too risky. You are just too vulnerable with it being a channel. It wouldn't be worthwile relative to payout.

Replying to bolded section. Especially the part "Why would anyone use it?"

First off, people would still use it for those who want to remain being beambots or rangeplars in PvP.

The way you write these replies are as if Templar was struggling without beam, when it absolutely wasn't. During High isle, in PvP beam was still an okay ability to use, but it was just outshined by jabs and backlash, which was a perfect idea, with emphasis on the word "Idea" because the execution of this idea was flawed.

Even from a Templar main in PvP, I can wholeheartedly say that 20k backlash is way too much, and it shouldn't do that, but it also shouldn't struggle to get 6k.
Using a ranged execute while being on a melee build is just wrong, which is something plars are forced into doing now, and your response of "why would anyone use it" on a jabplar, no one would. Which is exactly what my goal is. Let jabplars do good burst damage without then having to rely on a ranged execute to secure the kill.

And for PvE, watch some parse videos from High Isle, they do not use beam and I've still seen people hit 130k dps. Those who did use beam just started using it at 25% rather than 50% and their dps was still very good. All that the beam changes have done, is make Templar's parse more brainless.

So just to be clear you are admittedly contradicting yourself and you want to make an execute useless. Ok. I am quite familar with what they were capable of in high isle, thanks. You act as if you are the only one with experience with the class. Maybe you could clarify why on earth you think a ranged execute on a melee class is wrong. That makes utterly no sense.it allows viable builds for both ranged AND melee plars with execute being ranged, making jabs the stronger option means melee would have a distinct advantage. NB has a ranged execute when it is a class that absolutely suffers with only being able to use its class ultis in melee? There was a reason plar had those 2 abilities nerfed, they were way overperforming in pvp for exactly the same reasons i pointed out would happen again. To take enough from beam to balance out the damage loss would create exactly that situation all over again. Factually beam would be a terrible execute compared to every other because of the channel time. Its a joke to suggest otherwise.

Not once did I say make the beam useless. Even if I said anything remotely close to that, my point was "even if it was made useless, jab plars would STILL have more fun".

You make points about ranged magblades being forced to use incap, you raise this point like I had been defending it? I agree that a ranged build should not be forced to use melee abilities. Same for melee builds, they should not be forced to use ranged abilities, what about this makes "utterly no sense" as you stated.

The reason beam can be bashed is because it is a RANGED execute. You use it from range so that people cannot bash you out of it. So why on earth would I use an ability that is not meant to be used in melee range, on a melee build?

The way you write your reply is very.. very incorrect. Crushing weapon and elemental weapon is an extremely strong spammable for ranged templars, having a buff to backlash would only help rangeplars, reigning back the damage of beam is what would make it more balanced. How would buffing jabs affect rangeplar at all? It already has a good spammable. The only difference it would make is that now both rangeplar and jabplar are both viable. Jabplar would have no "distinct" advantage over rangeplar. To be honest it would still probably be rangeplar that has the advantage like it does right now.

I said reverting the damage of beam to a time when it was useable, not annoyingly strong, and to a time when jabplars werent forced to use ranged executes and could actually rely on their MELEE abilities to secure kills reliably.

Here's two videos for you,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNUVQPgQhnY&ab_channel=DekryptedTheDivine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD-VyHxk2BM&ab_channel=DekryptedTheDivine

Both have beam, this was before it was buffed and its still working fine, except now ranged builds have the option to use it, and melee builds are not FORCED to use it

Maybe instead of making assumptions on what I meant in my own forum posts, take a few minutes to re-read what I wrote and ensure you actually understand what I mean.

I give up there is literally no point in continuing this "discussion". Your at the point where you are using off class skills to justify your point. Jabs which is a melee attack is fine for range plars but beam being a range skill in wrong for melee plars okydoke.

Other classes have ranged executes that are not channelled and cant be bashed.

And this is from your post: "If enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed."

Come on.

But any how as i said im done with the contradictions but by all means keep going if you like.

What

I think I understand what's going on here.

People are scarred from the high Isle Range-plar. So we have to keep templar nerfed to the ground so that never happens again.

Comparing J-beam and Impale or even killers blade is actually a joke. Mechanically, J-beam fits a delayed burst perfect as you "could" set up a hard hitting PotL and then beam. Easy win. Now that PotL and its respective morph, has been nerfed, it's not as easy to land anymore. Impale or killers blade on the other hand is a burst ability, and can not be timed mechanically like J-beam. At that point I'd rather just use my 20k merciless resolve as an execute.

Regardless of any point anyone wants to make. Everyone agrees that J-beam is strong, and backlash is trash. End of story.

I change my opinion a little bit. Before I said take power from J-beam and reallocate it. No, templar can have J-beam, a backlash buff and a jabs buff. But bubble and other HoTs need to be toned down.

If someone runs an all damage build ( the nuker rangeplar), they should be squishy too. Just like any other class.

Galeriano

Dekrypted wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Problem with javelin is that it's not just a stun but that it's a ranged unblockable knockback. That creates way more posibilities than many others stuns You've mentioned especially when combined with undodgable ranged execute.

I am not saying that templars shouldn't have a CC I am saying that having a ranged unblockable knockback and ranged undodgable execute creates enviroment where one dev mistake can be very destructive for game balance.

As for moving part of the beam dmg into burning light and backlash it's not as logical as You think. There is many moving parts in play and not all of them would be affected in a positive way. It was not just some cincidence that devs changed burning light and backlash in the first place. There were issues with those two also. Templar in general was always a problematic class since it's the only class before 2023 relying so heavily on cast times and channels.

I emphatically disagree with your notion that its more complicated than it seems. Adjusting execute scaling creates additional damage no longer bound to one phase that can then be added to the rest of the class kit. There already was a time when plars did not run an execute while still getting high numbers. I'm not even saying to go back to those days, but to adjust the damage across the entire class resolves that.

The class took a myriad of damage nerfs across the board, yet someone still never got close to top dps in pve and only suffered in pvp as a result of those changes. A reallocation will work.

If the knockback on one morph of the ability is your main complaint, you should probably mention that at the top. Despite how it can seem annoying to have the knock back, I personally would rather the ability be left alone and wouldn't complain if it received the same "Knock down" treatment the stamina morph has. Really knockbacks in general can be buggy and if you're going to touch it on Templars, touch it on Destruction staves which is already extremely buggy and DKs with their leap as well. Change it all to knock down and be done with it if thats your complaint.

Damage can be fixed. I think you're overthinking whats actually being talked about here making it seem like it's more complex than it actually is. It atleast comes across that way.

It is harder than it looks. Problem with a beam being out there is that even if You nerf beam dmg and move it to somwhere else than class will still have undodgable execute and unblockable ranged knockback and it really doesn't matter at that point wheter that execute deal current X dmg or lets say 0,7X dmg after the changes it will still secure kills and templar will be getting these kills like crazy if he will get burst dmg on top of undodgable execute and unblockable ranged knockback. As for You argument that there was a time when templar didn't use beam it's really dishonest argument since we both know why that was happening. Templar was not using majority of his abilities and his rotation was like 3 skills in total at some point due to the fact how silly dmg of jabs and burning light were. If we want to reach pretty far into the past templar was also able to deal decent DPS with just 3 abilities where You could use beam as spammable. It actually shows how easy it is to break the templar and make it braindead button masher.

Templar is actually not that weak in terms of PvE DPS and throughout last few years was very often close to the top. Not that long ago top score in vAS HM was held by team with all templar DDs, world best vateshran hollows is held by templar and templar is unoficially one of the best if not the best class when it comes to soloing vet HM DLC dungeons. ESO PvE scene is just heavily focused on meta and even if something is few percent behind the top in trial enviroment it will be used way less than top choices and it's impossible to balance DPS on all classes to be excatly the same in all scenarios.

Knockback alone wouldn't be an issue if it wouldn't be combined with a beam. HAving both when one is unblockable and other undodgable and both are ranged is the problem. I agree that knockbacks in geenral are a nasty type of a stun and they very often don't work properly and ZoS could take some wider approach and change them accros the board. That being said some type of CC that moves enemy out of his desired position is nice to have in the game but having it in a form of ranged non ultimate unblockable ability is slightly too much.

Balance really is a complex thing. If it would be as simple as moving some numbers here and there, game balance wouldn't be in such a sorry state after 10 years. Even smallest changes will have impact on whole game because nothing exists in a vacuum.

VinnyGambini

I see your point. Last few days I checked rangeplar on bg's. Guess what happened? 11-4 and 1,3 million dmg first time rangeplar player, on top mmr battlegrounds. This is extremly hard to archieve by melee plar. My conclusions:
1. Destro staff spammable is very strong - deals same dmg as jabs, with much lower tooltip. I guess evasion buffs are culprit here. JABS single target dmg part should not be reduced by evasion buffs.
2. Regarding rangeplar burst, problem is not backlash, not javelin stun, its meteor. You cast meteor as delayed burst dmg, then stun with javelin. Meteor is the real culprit here. You cant do this combo with dawnbreaker. Also javelin dmg can be lowered to decrease burst a little.
3. To make melee plar closer to rangeplar sunsphere should be buffed to 10%. This and point 1 would make jabs worth using.

Summarizing: templar class abilities such as jabs and backlash needs buff, non class abilities needs nerf, I see so many meteors in bgs.

BTW: Do you think DK cant do the same? Apply dots, fire breath, meteor (with balorgh), fossilize, molten whip, bb. You dont even need execute.

Galeriano

Dekrypted wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

It is harder than it looks. Problem with a beam being out there is that even if You nerf beam dmg and move it to somwhere else than class will still have undodgable execute and unblockable ranged knockback and it really doesn't matter at that point wheter that execute deal current X dmg or lets say 0,7X dmg after the changes it will still secure kills and templar will be getting these kills like crazy if he will get burst dmg on top of undodgable execute and unblockable ranged knockback. As for You argument that there was a time when templar didn't use beam it's really dishonest argument since we both know why that was happening. Templar was not using majority of his abilities and his rotation was like 3 skills in total at some point due to the fact how silly dmg of jabs and burning light were. If we want to reach pretty far into the past templar was also able to deal decent DPS with just 3 abilities where You could use beam as spammable. It actually shows how easy it is to break the templar and make it braindead button masher.

Templar is actually not that weak in terms of PvE DPS and throughout last few years was very often close to the top. Not that long ago top score in vAS HM was held by team with all templar DDs, world best vateshran hollows is held by templar and templar is unoficially one of the best if not the best class when it comes to soloing vet HM DLC dungeons. ESO PvE scene is just heavily focused on meta and even if something is few percent behind the top in trial enviroment it will be used way less than top choices and it's impossible to balance DPS on all classes to be excatly the same in all scenarios.

A good bit of the points you're trying to make here were addressed actually in @Gopher's post. So I will quote some of that here.

Gopher wrote: »

Replying to bolded section. Especially the part "Why would anyone use it?"

First off, people would still use it for those who want to remain being beambots or rangeplars in PvP.

The way you write these replies are as if Templar was struggling without beam, when it absolutely wasn't. During High isle, in PvP beam was still an okay ability to use, but it was just outshined by jabs and backlash, which was a perfect idea, with emphasis on the word "Idea" because the execution of this idea was flawed.

Even from a Templar main in PvP, I can wholeheartedly say that 20k backlash is way too much, and it shouldn't do that, but it also shouldn't struggle to get 6k.
Using a ranged execute while being on a melee build is just wrong, which is something plars are forced into doing now, and your response of "why would anyone use it" on a jabplar, no one would. Which is exactly what my goal is. Let jabplars do good burst damage without then having to rely on a ranged execute to secure the kill.

And for PvE, watch some parse videos from High Isle, they do not use beam and I've still seen people hit 130k dps. Those who did use beam just started using it at 25% rather than 50% and their dps was still very good. All that the beam changes have done, is make Templar's parse more brainless.

Gopher wrote: »

I agree that a ranged build should not be forced to use melee abilities. Same for melee builds, they should not be forced to use ranged abilities, what about this makes "utterly no sense" as you stated.

The reason beam can be bashed is because it is a RANGED execute. You use it from range so that people cannot bash you out of it. So why on earth would I use an ability that is not meant to be used in melee range, on a melee build?

The way you write your reply is very.. very incorrect. Crushing weapon and elemental weapon is an extremely strong spammable for ranged templars, having a buff to backlash would only help rangeplars, reigning back the damage of beam is what would make it more balanced. How would buffing jabs affect rangeplar at all? It already has a good spammable. The only difference it would make is that now both rangeplar and jabplar are both viable. Jabplar would have no "distinct" advantage over rangeplar. To be honest it would still probably be rangeplar that has the advantage like it does right now.

I said reverting the damage of beam to a time when it was useable, not annoyingly strong, and to a time when jabplars werent forced to use ranged executes and could actually rely on their MELEE abilities to secure kills reliably.

Here's two videos for you,
[Snip]

[Snip]

Both have beam, this was before it was buffed and its still working fine, except now ranged builds have the option to use it, and melee builds are not FORCED to use it

[Snip]

I'll also quote myself to buttress gophers post,

Dekrypted wrote: »

Look mom! I'm on TV!

(Beam is too strong and its damage need to be reallocated away from where it is now back into the other abilities. I'm the one who made the clip. It allowed me to more than secure kills on a STAMPLAR. During that time, I actively didn't use it because it made fights too easy. Why would it need to be stronger? The difference in damage between Backlash and the execute now is night and day. A reallocation only improves the quality of life. I have no idea what you're talking about when you say it was useless then. The only thing it could be considered useless for at that time is if you were trying to use it on someone at full health. If that's what you're doing now, you're not helping your case.)

Edit: Forgot to add that the 1st clip is from Ascending Tides and the second is from High Isle. Beam still had its place and if they were going to buff it, they shouldn't have buffed it to the degree that it is now while nerfing Burning Light, Jabs, AND Backlash. way too heavy handed of a nerf and way too strong of a buff.

Reallocate. Reallocate. Reallocate.

Galeriano wrote: »

Knockback alone wouldn't be an issue if it wouldn't be combined with a beam. HAving both when one is unblockable and other undodgable and both are ranged is the problem. I agree that knockbacks in geenral are a nasty type of a stun and they very often don't work properly and ZoS could take some wider approach and change them accros the board. That being said some type of CC that moves enemy out of his desired position is nice to have in the game but having it in a form of ranged non ultimate unblockable ability is slightly too much.


Balance really is a complex thing. If it would be as simple as moving some numbers here and there, game balance wouldn't be in such a sorry state after 10 years. Even smallest changes will have impact on whole game because nothing exists in a vacuum.

Youre not wrong in your sentiment that balance is a complex thing. However it does ignore the fact that with the nerf to Backlash and the reallocation of damage into the execute over where it once was is actually an overcorection.

With a justification of the classes CC as the seemingly main reason why the class shouldn't be close to the others doesn't make sense if we're trying to achieve anything in terms of balance. There once was a time where counterplay existed. Your justifications go against this ergo you're seemingly arguing for things to remain unbalanced.

To be honest I don't really see anything that would be reliable counterargument to what I said. I agree with some points but main arguments that I've made in previous post still stand.

Having ranged undodgable execute and ranged unblockable knockback at the same time creates too many loopholes to be abused. If ZoS would realocate part of the beam dmg into something else and quite frankly if they would realocate part of that dmg into backlash it would create even more broken playstyle if javelin would still be ranged unblockable knockback and beam would be ranged undodgable execute. There are scenarios right now where javein and/or beam spam is broken right now and more dmg on other abilities is excatly what that playstyle is missing from becoming completly broken. It would be just rune cage meta 2.0.

[Edited quote]

Galeriano

Dekrypted wrote: »

Just interrupt the execute. On my arcanist when I know I'm about to get hit with a meteor combo, I charm the templar. Stops the beam because they have to break the channel to block the cc, or they get charmed.

I run venom arrow on my bow builds which.... interrupts a channel.

If I'm on a mag toon with my spammable being crushing shock.. it interrupts a channel.

I've even dodge casted ccs to break their combo.

Counterplay should be encouraged. It was at a time. Leaving some additional damage in the execute and going back to how it was with more damage in backlash just makes more sense when it comes to the actual topic of the thread, which is that the burst ability for Templar is buns.

We can talk and circles or agree to disagree, but I don't think we're going to reach any common ground.

What is templar will make sure to be CC immune while performing combo? How do You want to use interrupt when You are stunned and just recived unavoidable combo of backlash+javelin+meteor and it left You with so little HP that 1 tick of beam which hits almost instantly will finish You? What if You are being beam spammed by more than 1 templar? What if Yopu don't have a slot for interrpt ability or if slotting it will force You to decisions that will effectively nerf Your setup?

Counterplay should be encouraged but it shouldn't be forced in a way that if You don't slot specific abilities against other specific abilities You will find Yourself dead. It's already being done with cloak and detection sources and it doesn't work well. Introducing unavoidable range combos shouldn't be a thing.

Moving part of the beam dmg into backlash would make sense only if nerfs to beam or/and javelin would happen and I am talking about nerfs different than just lowering the dmg. Otherwise it would be just creating another broken meta that soon many people would start following and shortly after we would have half of Cyro running on templars spamming backlash+javelin+beam. and good luck with interrupting them all.

Galeriano

Dekrypted wrote: »

[Snip]I'll just repeat what I just said.

Dekrypted wrote: »

Just interrupt the execute. On my arcanist when I know I'm about to get hit with a meteor combo, I charm the templar. Stops the beam because they have to break the channel to block the cc, or they get charmed.

I run venom arrow on my bow builds which.... interrupts a channel.

If I'm on a mag toon with my spammable being crushing shock.. it interrupts a channel.

I've even dodge casted ccs to break their combo.

Counterplay should be encouraged. It was at a time. Leaving some additional damage in the execute and going back to how it was with more damage in backlash just makes more sense when it comes to the actual topic of the thread, which is that the burst ability for Templar is buns.

We can talk and circles or agree to disagree, but I don't think we're going to reach any common ground.

[Snip].

Avoiding the answer is kinda the answer in its own. FYI I also play templar. I understand balance is not Your main concern and You just want Your class to be strong even if it would break the balance. No point in further discussing the topic if we have 2 different goals in mind.

[Snip]

[Edited for removed content/quote]

Gopher

Galeriano wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

Just interrupt the execute. On my arcanist when I know I'm about to get hit with a meteor combo, I charm the templar. Stops the beam because they have to break the channel to block the cc, or they get charmed.

I run venom arrow on my bow builds which.... interrupts a channel.

If I'm on a mag toon with my spammable being crushing shock.. it interrupts a channel.

I've even dodge casted ccs to break their combo.

Counterplay should be encouraged. It was at a time. Leaving some additional damage in the execute and going back to how it was with more damage in backlash just makes more sense when it comes to the actual topic of the thread, which is that the burst ability for Templar is buns.

We can talk and circles or agree to disagree, but I don't think we're going to reach any common ground.

What is templar will make sure to be CC immune while performing combo? How do You want to use interrupt when You are stunned and just recived unavoidable combo of backlash+javelin+meteor and it left You with so little HP that 1 tick of beam which hits almost instantly will finish You? What if You are being beam spammed by more than 1 templar? What if Yopu don't have a slot for interrpt ability or if slotting it will force You to decisions that will effectively nerf Your setup?

Counterplay should be encouraged but it shouldn't be forced in a way that if You don't slot specific abilities against other specific abilities You will find Yourself dead. It's already being done with cloak and detection sources and it doesn't work well. Introducing unavoidable range combos shouldn't be a thing.

Moving part of the beam dmg into backlash would make sense only if nerfs to beam or/and javelin would happen and I am talking about nerfs different than just lowering the dmg. Otherwise it would be just creating another broken meta that soon many people would start following and shortly after we would have half of Cyro running on templars spamming backlash+javelin+beam. and good luck with interrupting them all.

Not trying to but in, or incite an argument by any means, but I must say that what you've said isn't exactly accurate.

The meteor combo is not "unavoidable" I have clips of myself avoiding it... many times. All you must do is roll dodge the javelin, and block immediately so that you can block the stun from meteor. Then it allows you to simply stalemate the healbot rangeplar.. which is another issue entirely. Don't mistake me saying this as me saying that the meteor combo isn't extremely strong, because everyone knows it is, but it also isn't an unavoidable win button, where one ultimate means you instantly defeat your opponent.


Your argument of "what if multiple templars are beaming you" can be applied to literally any class in the game.

What if multiple nightblades are hitting execute on me?
What if multiple dragonknights whip me when I'm rooted?

Hey because why not,

What if I have multiple Necromancers focusing me down?

Answer to all of them is, you're probably going to die.

At that point it has nothing to do with the class, and everything to do with the fact that you poorly chose to engage in a vastly outnumbered fight, where survival was impossible.

Galeriano

Gopher wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

Just interrupt the execute. On my arcanist when I know I'm about to get hit with a meteor combo, I charm the templar. Stops the beam because they have to break the channel to block the cc, or they get charmed.

I run venom arrow on my bow builds which.... interrupts a channel.

If I'm on a mag toon with my spammable being crushing shock.. it interrupts a channel.

I've even dodge casted ccs to break their combo.

Counterplay should be encouraged. It was at a time. Leaving some additional damage in the execute and going back to how it was with more damage in backlash just makes more sense when it comes to the actual topic of the thread, which is that the burst ability for Templar is buns.

We can talk and circles or agree to disagree, but I don't think we're going to reach any common ground.

What is templar will make sure to be CC immune while performing combo? How do You want to use interrupt when You are stunned and just recived unavoidable combo of backlash+javelin+meteor and it left You with so little HP that 1 tick of beam which hits almost instantly will finish You? What if You are being beam spammed by more than 1 templar? What if Yopu don't have a slot for interrpt ability or if slotting it will force You to decisions that will effectively nerf Your setup?

Counterplay should be encouraged but it shouldn't be forced in a way that if You don't slot specific abilities against other specific abilities You will find Yourself dead. It's already being done with cloak and detection sources and it doesn't work well. Introducing unavoidable range combos shouldn't be a thing.

Moving part of the beam dmg into backlash would make sense only if nerfs to beam or/and javelin would happen and I am talking about nerfs different than just lowering the dmg. Otherwise it would be just creating another broken meta that soon many people would start following and shortly after we would have half of Cyro running on templars spamming backlash+javelin+beam. and good luck with interrupting them all.

Not trying to but in, or incite an argument by any means, but I must say that what you've said isn't exactly accurate.

The meteor combo is not "unavoidable" I have clips of myself avoiding it... many times. All you must do is roll dodge the javelin, and block immediately so that you can block the stun from meteor. Then it allows you to simply stalemate the healbot rangeplar.. which is another issue entirely. Don't mistake me saying this as me saying that the meteor combo isn't extremely strong, because everyone knows it is, but it also isn't an unavoidable win button, where one ultimate means you instantly defeat your opponent.


Your argument of "what if multiple templars are beaming you" can be applied to literally any class in the game.

What if multiple nightblades are hitting execute on me?
What if multiple dragonknights whip me when I'm rooted?

Hey because why not,

What if I have multiple Necromancers focusing me down?

Answer to all of them is, you're probably going to die.

At that point it has nothing to do with the class, and everything to do with the fact that you poorly chose to engage in a vastly outnumbered fight, where survival was impossible.

[Snip] You could avoid that combo because enemies were performing it poorly and giving You too much of a freedom to perform dodge into block? And even the fact that it's not unavoidable win button atm doesnt justify making it excatly that in the future with more burst dmg being added to backlash without changing anything in how javelin or beam operates. Combining undodgable and unblockable stuns both on a range abilities with another ranged delayed burst ability and undodgable ranged execute is just too much.

No that argument cannot be applied to literally any class in the game

What if multiple nightblades are hitting execute on me? I dodge into heal or block into heal.
What if multiple DKs whip me when I am rooted? I dodge into heal or block into heal.

I can also use some stun on them or get away from meele range when this options are not possible against templars beaming from distance since not all stuns are long distance ones and templar execute is 36+ meters range rather than 7 meters like whip or killer's blade or executioner.\

It's noticably easier to Xv1 someone down when templar with javelin and beam is around compared to majority of other classes, especially that templar in PvP adds nice layer of support that many classes don't which somehow is always not mentioned when discussing PvP class balance. Everyone have that wierd tendency to judge PvP balance based on 1v1 scenarios which atm are the most rare types of encounters.

To summarize, my point still stands that adding more dmg (especially noticable burst dmg) into templar kit while keeping both undodgable ranged execute and unblockable ranged knockback would be a horrible balance decision and I havnt seen any argument to prove otherwise. Backlash was nerfed in the first place because around a year ago especially in BGs You could nuke people down like crazy with explosions reaching 10k. I had fun with it but I knew it was busted like hell. I was able to nuke almost everyone with a combo of backlash+crescent+2-3x spammable+javelin+beam. This times shouldn't be back and I say this as someone who was benefiting from it.

[Edited for minor bait]

Gopher

Galeriano wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

Just interrupt the execute. On my arcanist when I know I'm about to get hit with a meteor combo, I charm the templar. Stops the beam because they have to break the channel to block the cc, or they get charmed.

I run venom arrow on my bow builds which.... interrupts a channel.

If I'm on a mag toon with my spammable being crushing shock.. it interrupts a channel.

I've even dodge casted ccs to break their combo.

Counterplay should be encouraged. It was at a time. Leaving some additional damage in the execute and going back to how it was with more damage in backlash just makes more sense when it comes to the actual topic of the thread, which is that the burst ability for Templar is buns.

We can talk and circles or agree to disagree, but I don't think we're going to reach any common ground.

What is templar will make sure to be CC immune while performing combo? How do You want to use interrupt when You are stunned and just recived unavoidable combo of backlash+javelin+meteor and it left You with so little HP that 1 tick of beam which hits almost instantly will finish You? What if You are being beam spammed by more than 1 templar? What if Yopu don't have a slot for interrpt ability or if slotting it will force You to decisions that will effectively nerf Your setup?

Counterplay should be encouraged but it shouldn't be forced in a way that if You don't slot specific abilities against other specific abilities You will find Yourself dead. It's already being done with cloak and detection sources and it doesn't work well. Introducing unavoidable range combos shouldn't be a thing.

Moving part of the beam dmg into backlash would make sense only if nerfs to beam or/and javelin would happen and I am talking about nerfs different than just lowering the dmg. Otherwise it would be just creating another broken meta that soon many people would start following and shortly after we would have half of Cyro running on templars spamming backlash+javelin+beam. and good luck with interrupting them all.

Not trying to but in, or incite an argument by any means, but I must say that what you've said isn't exactly accurate.

The meteor combo is not "unavoidable" I have clips of myself avoiding it... many times. All you must do is roll dodge the javelin, and block immediately so that you can block the stun from meteor. Then it allows you to simply stalemate the healbot rangeplar.. which is another issue entirely. Don't mistake me saying this as me saying that the meteor combo isn't extremely strong, because everyone knows it is, but it also isn't an unavoidable win button, where one ultimate means you instantly defeat your opponent.


Your argument of "what if multiple templars are beaming you" can be applied to literally any class in the game.

What if multiple nightblades are hitting execute on me?
What if multiple dragonknights whip me when I'm rooted?

Hey because why not,

What if I have multiple Necromancers focusing me down?

Answer to all of them is, you're probably going to die.

At that point it has nothing to do with the class, and everything to do with the fact that you poorly chose to engage in a vastly outnumbered fight, where survival was impossible.

[Snip] You could avoid that combo because enemies were performing it poorly and giving You too much of a freedom to perform dodge into block? And even the fact that it's not unavoidable win button atm doesnt justify making it excatly that in the future with more burst dmg being added to backlash without changing anything in how javelin or beam operates. Combining undodgable and unblockable stuns both on a range abilities with another ranged delayed burst ability and undodgable ranged execute is just too much.

No that argument cannot be applied to literally any class in the game

What if multiple nightblades are hitting execute on me? I dodge into heal or block into heal.
What if multiple DKs whip me when I am rooted? I dodge into heal or block into heal.

I can also use some stun on them or get away from meele range when this options are not possible against templars beaming from distance since not all stuns are long distance ones and templar execute is 36+ meters range rather than 7 meters like whip or killer's blade or executioner.\

It's noticably easier to Xv1 someone down when templar with javelin and beam is around compared to majority of other classes, especially that templar in PvP adds nice layer of support that many classes don't which somehow is always not mentioned when discussing PvP class balance. Everyone have that wierd tendency to judge PvP balance based on 1v1 scenarios which atm are the most rare types of encounters.

To summarize, my point still stands that adding more dmg (especially noticable burst dmg) into templar kit while keeping both undodgable ranged execute and unblockable ranged knockback would be a horrible balance decision and I havnt seen any argument to prove otherwise. Backlash was nerfed in the first place because around a year ago especially in BGs You could nuke people down like crazy with explosions reaching 10k. I had fun with it but I knew it was busted like hell. I was able to nuke almost everyone with a combo of backlash+crescent+2-3x spammable+javelin+beam. This times shouldn't be back and I say this as someone who was benefiting from it.

[Snip]

Javelin is dodgeable, but not blockable.

Shattering rocks is NOT dodgeable and NOT blockable.

Nightblade fear is NOT blockable and NOT dodgeable.

Turn evil stun from Fighter's Guild skill line is NOT blockable and NOT dodgeable.

The list goes on. So if all these unblockable AND undodgeable stuns/roots exist within this game, why should one that is DODGEABLE be changed?

And no, in my opinion it is significantly easier to X someone down when I have a Nightblade fearing my enemy and executing them for what I've seen hit at 16k crits.

[Edited for removed content and quote]

Galeriano

Gopher wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

Just interrupt the execute. On my arcanist when I know I'm about to get hit with a meteor combo, I charm the templar. Stops the beam because they have to break the channel to block the cc, or they get charmed.

I run venom arrow on my bow builds which.... interrupts a channel.

If I'm on a mag toon with my spammable being crushing shock.. it interrupts a channel.

I've even dodge casted ccs to break their combo.

Counterplay should be encouraged. It was at a time. Leaving some additional damage in the execute and going back to how it was with more damage in backlash just makes more sense when it comes to the actual topic of the thread, which is that the burst ability for Templar is buns.

We can talk and circles or agree to disagree, but I don't think we're going to reach any common ground.

What is templar will make sure to be CC immune while performing combo? How do You want to use interrupt when You are stunned and just recived unavoidable combo of backlash+javelin+meteor and it left You with so little HP that 1 tick of beam which hits almost instantly will finish You? What if You are being beam spammed by more than 1 templar? What if Yopu don't have a slot for interrpt ability or if slotting it will force You to decisions that will effectively nerf Your setup?

Counterplay should be encouraged but it shouldn't be forced in a way that if You don't slot specific abilities against other specific abilities You will find Yourself dead. It's already being done with cloak and detection sources and it doesn't work well. Introducing unavoidable range combos shouldn't be a thing.

Moving part of the beam dmg into backlash would make sense only if nerfs to beam or/and javelin would happen and I am talking about nerfs different than just lowering the dmg. Otherwise it would be just creating another broken meta that soon many people would start following and shortly after we would have half of Cyro running on templars spamming backlash+javelin+beam. and good luck with interrupting them all.

Not trying to but in, or incite an argument by any means, but I must say that what you've said isn't exactly accurate.

The meteor combo is not "unavoidable" I have clips of myself avoiding it... many times. All you must do is roll dodge the javelin, and block immediately so that you can block the stun from meteor. Then it allows you to simply stalemate the healbot rangeplar.. which is another issue entirely. Don't mistake me saying this as me saying that the meteor combo isn't extremely strong, because everyone knows it is, but it also isn't an unavoidable win button, where one ultimate means you instantly defeat your opponent.


Your argument of "what if multiple templars are beaming you" can be applied to literally any class in the game.

What if multiple nightblades are hitting execute on me?
What if multiple dragonknights whip me when I'm rooted?

Hey because why not,

What if I have multiple Necromancers focusing me down?

Answer to all of them is, you're probably going to die.

At that point it has nothing to do with the class, and everything to do with the fact that you poorly chose to engage in a vastly outnumbered fight, where survival was impossible.

[Snip] You could avoid that combo because enemies were performing it poorly and giving You too much of a freedom to perform dodge into block? And even the fact that it's not unavoidable win button atm doesnt justify making it excatly that in the future with more burst dmg being added to backlash without changing anything in how javelin or beam operates. Combining undodgable and unblockable stuns both on a range abilities with another ranged delayed burst ability and undodgable ranged execute is just too much.

No that argument cannot be applied to literally any class in the game

What if multiple nightblades are hitting execute on me? I dodge into heal or block into heal.
What if multiple DKs whip me when I am rooted? I dodge into heal or block into heal.

I can also use some stun on them or get away from meele range when this options are not possible against templars beaming from distance since not all stuns are long distance ones and templar execute is 36+ meters range rather than 7 meters like whip or killer's blade or executioner.\

It's noticably easier to Xv1 someone down when templar with javelin and beam is around compared to majority of other classes, especially that templar in PvP adds nice layer of support that many classes don't which somehow is always not mentioned when discussing PvP class balance. Everyone have that wierd tendency to judge PvP balance based on 1v1 scenarios which atm are the most rare types of encounters.

To summarize, my point still stands that adding more dmg (especially noticable burst dmg) into templar kit while keeping both undodgable ranged execute and unblockable ranged knockback would be a horrible balance decision and I havnt seen any argument to prove otherwise. Backlash was nerfed in the first place because around a year ago especially in BGs You could nuke people down like crazy with explosions reaching 10k. I had fun with it but I knew it was busted like hell. I was able to nuke almost everyone with a combo of backlash+crescent+2-3x spammable+javelin+beam. This times shouldn't be back and I say this as someone who was benefiting from it.

[Snip]

Javelin is dodgeable, but not blockable.

Shattering rocks is NOT dodgeable and NOT blockable.

Nightblade fear is NOT blockable and NOT dodgeable.

Turn evil stun from Fighter's Guild skill line is NOT blockable and NOT dodgeable.

The list goes on. So if all these unblockable AND undodgeable stuns/roots exist within this game, why should one that is DODGEABLE be changed?

And no, in my opinion it is significantly easier to X someone down when I have a Nightblade fearing my enemy and executing them for what I've seen hit at 16k crits.

[Snip] I've specifically stated like 2 times in this thread that I was using that playstyle. I was killing with it. I know how broken it can be because I was doing it to the point I got bored of it.[Snip]

Did I get 100% kill ratio with that combo? No. Nothing in ESO have that but does it mean everything is balanced and can be freely buffed? Also no. Using argument that there is some type of counterplay is pretty weak because You can use it basically against every broken thing that existed and exists in ESO so continuing that logic everything is fine and nothing needs to be changed. What was discussed here was wheter or not buffing templar dmg in other places without changing current important strong aspect of the class is good and I think it's not good because a playstyle that already can be pretty effective will become dangerously more effective and propably become a meta, ironically contrary to what You supposedly want. I am not against templar getting buffs to the dmg output in abilities that are currently underperforming but to do this he would also need to recive tweaks to some of his current strongest offensive aspects otherwise it's just repeating the same mistakes that are messing this game's balance since many years.

if You would read one of me earlier posts You would've known I already provided answer against Your argument of bringing up other classes stuns.

is shattering rocks ranged, does it apply knockback and does DK have undodgable ranged execute?

Is fear ranged, does it deal dmg and does nb have undodgable ranged execute?

Is turn evil ranged, does it deal dmg and does any other class except templar have ranged undodgable execute?

The list could go forever and You will never find a combo similar to what templar have if You want to be objective and take all the aspects into consideration. Nothing exists in a vacuum, You can't just bring up other stuns without the context and suggest that everything with templar is fine and he can freely get dmg buffs because there are other decent stuns in the game. If You bring up 5-7 meters AoE non dmg undodgable, unblockable stuns that can be followed at best with dodgable , blockable executes or with regular abilities and compare them to a 22 meters unblockable single target stun with some dmg that can be supported by 36 meters unblockable execute and You don't see the difference than I am wondering is there even a point in this discussion.

I can agree that nightblade is also very high when it comes to a pressure applied while Xing someone but I woudlnt put it "significantly higher" over a templar. Both are highly succesfull at that and fact nightblade is high doesn't suddenly make templar look better. Nightblade is a different can of worms that also have balancing issues on its own. You are kinda repeating the same line of argumentation. You are making templar to look bad by saying that someone else is also good or better at something so everything with templar is fine. This is not how balance works.

Edit

[Snip]

[Edited quote, minor bait, profanity bypass]

Gopher

Galeriano wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

Just interrupt the execute. On my arcanist when I know I'm about to get hit with a meteor combo, I charm the templar. Stops the beam because they have to break the channel to block the cc, or they get charmed.

I run venom arrow on my bow builds which.... interrupts a channel.

If I'm on a mag toon with my spammable being crushing shock.. it interrupts a channel.

I've even dodge casted ccs to break their combo.

Counterplay should be encouraged. It was at a time. Leaving some additional damage in the execute and going back to how it was with more damage in backlash just makes more sense when it comes to the actual topic of the thread, which is that the burst ability for Templar is buns.

We can talk and circles or agree to disagree, but I don't think we're going to reach any common ground.

What is templar will make sure to be CC immune while performing combo? How do You want to use interrupt when You are stunned and just recived unavoidable combo of backlash+javelin+meteor and it left You with so little HP that 1 tick of beam which hits almost instantly will finish You? What if You are being beam spammed by more than 1 templar? What if Yopu don't have a slot for interrpt ability or if slotting it will force You to decisions that will effectively nerf Your setup?

Counterplay should be encouraged but it shouldn't be forced in a way that if You don't slot specific abilities against other specific abilities You will find Yourself dead. It's already being done with cloak and detection sources and it doesn't work well. Introducing unavoidable range combos shouldn't be a thing.

Moving part of the beam dmg into backlash would make sense only if nerfs to beam or/and javelin would happen and I am talking about nerfs different than just lowering the dmg. Otherwise it would be just creating another broken meta that soon many people would start following and shortly after we would have half of Cyro running on templars spamming backlash+javelin+beam. and good luck with interrupting them all.

Not trying to but in, or incite an argument by any means, but I must say that what you've said isn't exactly accurate.

The meteor combo is not "unavoidable" I have clips of myself avoiding it... many times. All you must do is roll dodge the javelin, and block immediately so that you can block the stun from meteor. Then it allows you to simply stalemate the healbot rangeplar.. which is another issue entirely. Don't mistake me saying this as me saying that the meteor combo isn't extremely strong, because everyone knows it is, but it also isn't an unavoidable win button, where one ultimate means you instantly defeat your opponent.


Your argument of "what if multiple templars are beaming you" can be applied to literally any class in the game.

What if multiple nightblades are hitting execute on me?
What if multiple dragonknights whip me when I'm rooted?

Hey because why not,

What if I have multiple Necromancers focusing me down?

Answer to all of them is, you're probably going to die.

At that point it has nothing to do with the class, and everything to do with the fact that you poorly chose to engage in a vastly outnumbered fight, where survival was impossible.

[Snip] You could avoid that combo because enemies were performing it poorly and giving You too much of a freedom to perform dodge into block? And even the fact that it's not unavoidable win button atm doesnt justify making it excatly that in the future with more burst dmg being added to backlash without changing anything in how javelin or beam operates. Combining undodgable and unblockable stuns both on a range abilities with another ranged delayed burst ability and undodgable ranged execute is just too much.

No that argument cannot be applied to literally any class in the game

What if multiple nightblades are hitting execute on me? I dodge into heal or block into heal.
What if multiple DKs whip me when I am rooted? I dodge into heal or block into heal.

I can also use some stun on them or get away from meele range when this options are not possible against templars beaming from distance since not all stuns are long distance ones and templar execute is 36+ meters range rather than 7 meters like whip or killer's blade or executioner.\

It's noticably easier to Xv1 someone down when templar with javelin and beam is around compared to majority of other classes, especially that templar in PvP adds nice layer of support that many classes don't which somehow is always not mentioned when discussing PvP class balance. Everyone have that wierd tendency to judge PvP balance based on 1v1 scenarios which atm are the most rare types of encounters.

To summarize, my point still stands that adding more dmg (especially noticable burst dmg) into templar kit while keeping both undodgable ranged execute and unblockable ranged knockback would be a horrible balance decision and I havnt seen any argument to prove otherwise. Backlash was nerfed in the first place because around a year ago especially in BGs You could nuke people down like crazy with explosions reaching 10k. I had fun with it but I knew it was busted like hell. I was able to nuke almost everyone with a combo of backlash+crescent+2-3x spammable+javelin+beam. This times shouldn't be back and I say this as someone who was benefiting from it.

[Snip]

Javelin is dodgeable, but not blockable.

Shattering rocks is NOT dodgeable and NOT blockable.

Nightblade fear is NOT blockable and NOT dodgeable.

Turn evil stun from Fighter's Guild skill line is NOT blockable and NOT dodgeable.

The list goes on. So if all these unblockable AND undodgeable stuns/roots exist within this game, why should one that is DODGEABLE be changed?

And no, in my opinion it is significantly easier to X someone down when I have a Nightblade fearing my enemy and executing them for what I've seen hit at 16k crits.

[Snip] I've specifically stated like 2 times in this thread that I was using that playstyle. I was killing with it. I know how broken it can be because I was doing it to the point I got bored of it. [Snip]

Did I get 100% kill ratio with that combo? No. Nothing in ESO have that but does it mean everything is balanced and can be freely buffed? Also no. Using argument that there is some type of counterplay is pretty weak because You can use it basically against every broken thing that existed and exists in ESO so continuing that logic everything is fine and nothing needs to be changed. What was discussed here was wheter or not buffing templar dmg in other places without changing current important strong aspect of the class is good and I think it's not good because a playstyle that already can be pretty effective will become dangerously more effective and propably become a meta, ironically contrary to what You supposedly want. I am not against templar getting buffs to the dmg output in abilities that are currently underperforming but to do this he would also need to recive tweaks to some of his current strongest offensive aspects otherwise it's just repeating the same mistakes that are messing this game's balance since many years.

if You would read one of me earlier posts You would've known I already provided answer against Your argument of bringing up other classes stuns.

is shattering rocks ranged, does it apply knockback and does DK have undodgable ranged execute?

Is fear ranged, does it deal dmg and does nb have undodgable ranged execute?

Is turn evil ranged, does it deal dmg and does any other class except templar have ranged undodgable execute?

The list could go forever and You will never find a combo similar to what templar have if You want to be objective and take all the aspects into consideration. Nothing exists in a vacuum, You can't just bring up other stuns without the context and suggest that everything with templar is fine and he can freely get dmg buffs because there are other decent stuns in the game. If You bring up 5-7 meters AoE non dmg undodgable, unblockable stuns that can be followed at best with dodgable , blockable executes or with regular abilities and compare them to a 22 meters unblockable single target stun with some dmg that can be supported by 36 meters unblockable execute and You don't see the difference than I am wondering is there even a point in this discussion.

I can agree that nightblade is also very high when it comes to a pressure applied while Xing someone but I woudlnt put it "significantly higher" over a templar. Both are highly succesfull at that and fact nightblade is high doesn't suddenly make templar look better. Nightblade is a different can of worms that also have balancing issues on its own. You are kinda repeating the same line of argumentation. You are making templar to look bad by saying that someone else is also good or better at something so everything with templar is fine. This is not how balance works.

Edit

[Snip]

That is not a realistic video to pull up to compare.

Here's a list of reasons why:

-Corrosive is banned
-More than 2 defense cp are banned
-Vampire stage 3 is banned
-Most defensive sets are banned
-Defense ults are banned




[Snip], in the final fight of the tourney in this video, you can see Monk avoiding this combo for over 12 minutes on sorcerer, which is a class renowned for having bad healing.
https://youtu.be/RgKu9vYHiGI?t=21981

Also you've seemed to have [Snip] forgotten about the part of my post where I explicitly say that the meteor combo on rangeplar is strong. Yes, Shady killed many people with that combo, because it is STRONG. MetallicMonk avoided it for as long as he did, because just like I stated, it is not and end all be all combo.

There is no real point in conversing with someone who clearly is only here to cause arguments. This will be my final reply.

[Edited quote/minor bait]

boi_anachronism_

To be clear folks: contrary to popular belief templars can not one tap you from the moon. If you are: in cyrodiil, near a keep, and have the reach passive at lvl 2 you get an additional 5m making it 33. Its not a templar passive, its an alliance passive so all classes can use it for any 28m skill. 28m base execute, same as impale would be (mag morph of killers blade). In otherwords under those circumstances impale and radiant have the same range. They cant snipe you across deshaan in a 1x1 nor across the arena in bgs.

So unless there was some wild patch to their passives thats not listed in any tooltip or pc got some kind of add on that allows for moon shots across tamerial for templars idk where 36m+ is coming from. Feel free to enlighten me

Galeriano

Gopher wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

Just interrupt the execute. On my arcanist when I know I'm about to get hit with a meteor combo, I charm the templar. Stops the beam because they have to break the channel to block the cc, or they get charmed.

I run venom arrow on my bow builds which.... interrupts a channel.

If I'm on a mag toon with my spammable being crushing shock.. it interrupts a channel.

I've even dodge casted ccs to break their combo.

Counterplay should be encouraged. It was at a time. Leaving some additional damage in the execute and going back to how it was with more damage in backlash just makes more sense when it comes to the actual topic of the thread, which is that the burst ability for Templar is buns.

We can talk and circles or agree to disagree, but I don't think we're going to reach any common ground.

What is templar will make sure to be CC immune while performing combo? How do You want to use interrupt when You are stunned and just recived unavoidable combo of backlash+javelin+meteor and it left You with so little HP that 1 tick of beam which hits almost instantly will finish You? What if You are being beam spammed by more than 1 templar? What if Yopu don't have a slot for interrpt ability or if slotting it will force You to decisions that will effectively nerf Your setup?

Counterplay should be encouraged but it shouldn't be forced in a way that if You don't slot specific abilities against other specific abilities You will find Yourself dead. It's already being done with cloak and detection sources and it doesn't work well. Introducing unavoidable range combos shouldn't be a thing.

Moving part of the beam dmg into backlash would make sense only if nerfs to beam or/and javelin would happen and I am talking about nerfs different than just lowering the dmg. Otherwise it would be just creating another broken meta that soon many people would start following and shortly after we would have half of Cyro running on templars spamming backlash+javelin+beam. and good luck with interrupting them all.

Not trying to but in, or incite an argument by any means, but I must say that what you've said isn't exactly accurate.

The meteor combo is not "unavoidable" I have clips of myself avoiding it... many times. All you must do is roll dodge the javelin, and block immediately so that you can block the stun from meteor. Then it allows you to simply stalemate the healbot rangeplar.. which is another issue entirely. Don't mistake me saying this as me saying that the meteor combo isn't extremely strong, because everyone knows it is, but it also isn't an unavoidable win button, where one ultimate means you instantly defeat your opponent.


Your argument of "what if multiple templars are beaming you" can be applied to literally any class in the game.

What if multiple nightblades are hitting execute on me?
What if multiple dragonknights whip me when I'm rooted?

Hey because why not,

What if I have multiple Necromancers focusing me down?

Answer to all of them is, you're probably going to die.

At that point it has nothing to do with the class, and everything to do with the fact that you poorly chose to engage in a vastly outnumbered fight, where survival was impossible.

[Snip]You could avoid that combo because enemies were performing it poorly and giving You too much of a freedom to perform dodge into block? And even the fact that it's not unavoidable win button atm doesnt justify making it excatly that in the future with more burst dmg being added to backlash without changing anything in how javelin or beam operates. Combining undodgable and unblockable stuns both on a range abilities with another ranged delayed burst ability and undodgable ranged execute is just too much.

No that argument cannot be applied to literally any class in the game

What if multiple nightblades are hitting execute on me? I dodge into heal or block into heal.
What if multiple DKs whip me when I am rooted? I dodge into heal or block into heal.

I can also use some stun on them or get away from meele range when this options are not possible against templars beaming from distance since not all stuns are long distance ones and templar execute is 36+ meters range rather than 7 meters like whip or killer's blade or executioner.\

It's noticably easier to Xv1 someone down when templar with javelin and beam is around compared to majority of other classes, especially that templar in PvP adds nice layer of support that many classes don't which somehow is always not mentioned when discussing PvP class balance. Everyone have that wierd tendency to judge PvP balance based on 1v1 scenarios which atm are the most rare types of encounters.

To summarize, my point still stands that adding more dmg (especially noticable burst dmg) into templar kit while keeping both undodgable ranged execute and unblockable ranged knockback would be a horrible balance decision and I havnt seen any argument to prove otherwise. Backlash was nerfed in the first place because around a year ago especially in BGs You could nuke people down like crazy with explosions reaching 10k. I had fun with it but I knew it was busted like hell. I was able to nuke almost everyone with a combo of backlash+crescent+2-3x spammable+javelin+beam. This times shouldn't be back and I say this as someone who was benefiting from it.

[Snip]

Javelin is dodgeable, but not blockable.

Shattering rocks is NOT dodgeable and NOT blockable.

Nightblade fear is NOT blockable and NOT dodgeable.

Turn evil stun from Fighter's Guild skill line is NOT blockable and NOT dodgeable.

The list goes on. So if all these unblockable AND undodgeable stuns/roots exist within this game, why should one that is DODGEABLE be changed?

And no, in my opinion it is significantly easier to X someone down when I have a Nightblade fearing my enemy and executing them for what I've seen hit at 16k crits.

[Snip]. I've specifically stated like 2 times in this thread that I was using that playstyle. I was killing with it. I know how broken it can be because I was doing it to the point I got bored of it. [Snips]

Did I get 100% kill ratio with that combo? No. Nothing in ESO have that but does it mean everything is balanced and can be freely buffed? Also no. Using argument that there is some type of counterplay is pretty weak because You can use it basically against every broken thing that existed and exists in ESO so continuing that logic everything is fine and nothing needs to be changed. What was discussed here was wheter or not buffing templar dmg in other places without changing current important strong aspect of the class is good and I think it's not good because a playstyle that already can be pretty effective will become dangerously more effective and propably become a meta, ironically contrary to what You supposedly want. I am not against templar getting buffs to the dmg output in abilities that are currently underperforming but to do this he would also need to recive tweaks to some of his current strongest offensive aspects otherwise it's just repeating the same mistakes that are messing this game's balance since many years.

if You would read one of me earlier posts You would've known I already provided answer against Your argument of bringing up other classes stuns.

is shattering rocks ranged, does it apply knockback and does DK have undodgable ranged execute?

Is fear ranged, does it deal dmg and does nb have undodgable ranged execute?

Is turn evil ranged, does it deal dmg and does any other class except templar have ranged undodgable execute?

The list could go forever and You will never find a combo similar to what templar have if You want to be objective and take all the aspects into consideration. Nothing exists in a vacuum, You can't just bring up other stuns without the context and suggest that everything with templar is fine and he can freely get dmg buffs because there are other decent stuns in the game. If You bring up 5-7 meters AoE non dmg undodgable, unblockable stuns that can be followed at best with dodgable , blockable executes or with regular abilities and compare them to a 22 meters unblockable single target stun with some dmg that can be supported by 36 meters unblockable execute and You don't see the difference than I am wondering is there even a point in this discussion.

I can agree that nightblade is also very high when it comes to a pressure applied while Xing someone but I woudlnt put it "significantly higher" over a templar. Both are highly succesfull at that and fact nightblade is high doesn't suddenly make templar look better. Nightblade is a different can of worms that also have balancing issues on its own. You are kinda repeating the same line of argumentation. You are making templar to look bad by saying that someone else is also good or better at something so everything with templar is fine. This is not how balance works.

Edit

[Snip]

That is not a realistic video to pull up to compare.

Here's a list of reasons why:

-Corrosive is banned
-More than 2 defense cp are banned
-Vampire stage 3 is banned
-Most defensive sets are banned
-Defense ults are banned




[Snip], in the final fight of the tourney in this video, you can see Monk avoiding this combo for over 12 minutes on sorcerer, which is a class renowned for having bad healing.
https://youtu.be/RgKu9vYHiGI?t=21981

Also you've seemed to have [Snip] forgotten about the part of my post where I explicitly say that the meteor combo on rangeplar is strong. Yes, Shady killed many people with that combo, because it is STRONG. MetallicMonk avoided it for as long as he did, because just like I stated, it is not and end all be all combo.

There is no real point in conversing with someone who clearly is only here to cause arguments. This will be my final reply.

But dodge and block are not banned so everyone should be easily avoiding this combo repeatedly according to Your previous statements.

The same monk still died multiple times to that combo. Sorc may not have the best healing but it have the best shields which are actually really strong when it comes to surviving setups like this one. I don't know where did You get that 12 minutes when from what I see they had 10 minutes duel rule. In the final duel monk actually avoided that combo only once and it's hard to say wheter through a nice prediction or pure luck because he used dodge before animation of meteor even showed or made sound. rest of the times he just survived the dmg in big part due to shield. During that final duel lasting 10 minutes Shady dropped meteor 5 times and had pretty bad luck with crits. So yeah 20% avoidance ratio for experienced player in a duel setting that is more controled than a regular PvP setting really doesn't sound like this combo is that easy to avoid when performed properly. Based on that I wouldn't say Your point was proven.

You've seen to have [Snip] forgotten that I never said it's end of all combo but that it's just really strong combo and changes like buffing backlash dmg would just make it dangerously stronger. Monk didn't avoid it he just survived it with shields and bad luck on Shady's side. In that particulal duel shady's backlash was hitting for 6k max best I've seen he had was 7k so it's not that hard to imagine what would be happening if it would go up to 10-12k+. Lowered dmg on beam wouldn't change much at that point.

[Edited for removed content/quote]

Galeriano

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

To be clear folks: contrary to popular belief templars can not one tap you from the moon. If you are: in cyrodiil, near a keep, and have the reach passive at lvl 2 you get an additional 5m making it 33. Its not a templar passive, its an alliance passive so all classes can use it for any 28m skill. 28m base execute, same as impale would be (mag morph of killers blade). In otherwords under those circumstances impale and radiant have the same range. They cant snipe you across deshaan in a 1x1 nor across the arena in bgs.

So unless there was some wild patch to their passives thats not listed in any tooltip or pc got some kind of add on that allows for moon shots across tamerial for templars idk where 36m+ is coming from. Feel free to enlighten me

Battle spirit :
Damage taken and Shield strength are decreased by 50%
Healing Received is decreased by 55%
Health Recovery is decreased by 50%
Ability range of 28 meters or more increased by 8

So every ability that have 28 meters in PvE have 36 meters in PvP and it's going up to 41 meters with reach passive.

It can theoretically be even extended further by 7 meters if someone wants to meme around with a Siege Shield ability morph, Propelling Shield.

boi_anachronism_

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

To be clear folks: contrary to popular belief templars can not one tap you from the moon. If you are: in cyrodiil, near a keep, and have the reach passive at lvl 2 you get an additional 5m making it 33. Its not a templar passive, its an alliance passive so all classes can use it for any 28m skill. 28m base execute, same as impale would be (mag morph of killers blade). In otherwords under those circumstances impale and radiant have the same range. They cant snipe you across deshaan in a 1x1 nor across the arena in bgs.

So unless there was some wild patch to their passives thats not listed in any tooltip or pc got some kind of add on that allows for moon shots across tamerial for templars idk where 36m+ is coming from. Feel free to enlighten me

Battle spirit :
Damage taken and Shield strength are decreased by 50%
Healing Received is decreased by 55%
Health Recovery is decreased by 50%
Ability range of 28 meters or more increased by 8

So every ability that have 28 meters in PvE have 36 meters in PvP and it's going up to 41 meters with reach passive.

It can theoretically be even extended further by 7 meters if someone wants to meme around with a Siege Shield ability morph, Propelling Shield.

Thanks for claritying since this is situation specific.

To summarize:

- its non-specific to templars affecting all 28m skills including magblade execute

- It cant be used in duels

Galeriano

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

To be clear folks: contrary to popular belief templars can not one tap you from the moon. If you are: in cyrodiil, near a keep, and have the reach passive at lvl 2 you get an additional 5m making it 33. Its not a templar passive, its an alliance passive so all classes can use it for any 28m skill. 28m base execute, same as impale would be (mag morph of killers blade). In otherwords under those circumstances impale and radiant have the same range. They cant snipe you across deshaan in a 1x1 nor across the arena in bgs.

So unless there was some wild patch to their passives thats not listed in any tooltip or pc got some kind of add on that allows for moon shots across tamerial for templars idk where 36m+ is coming from. Feel free to enlighten me

Battle spirit :
Damage taken and Shield strength are decreased by 50%
Healing Received is decreased by 55%
Health Recovery is decreased by 50%
Ability range of 28 meters or more increased by 8

So every ability that have 28 meters in PvE have 36 meters in PvP and it's going up to 41 meters with reach passive.

It can theoretically be even extended further by 7 meters if someone wants to meme around with a Siege Shield ability morph, Propelling Shield.

Thanks for claritying since this is situation specific.

To summarize:

- its non-specific to templars affecting all 28m skills including magblade execute

- It cant be used in duels

Undodgable ranged execute is specific to a templar.

Battle spirit also works in duels.

Galeriano

Dekrypted wrote: »

This is wild. He's just ignoring me now while not providing any substantive points.

Man templars are just the stepchild under the stairs 😔

I am not ignoring You. if anything You are ignoring me when providing arguments that i already responded to in other posts. What is the point for me to respond 3 times to literally the same arguments.

Galeriano

Dekrypted wrote: »

Nightblades and DKs have undodgeable and unblockable ccs as well as immobalizises. You're getting multi-whipped and multiple instances of an execute buddy.

Strange how no one is saying anything about sorcs being able to cast a ranged execute, meteor, and runecage/streak through a target though. Maybe throw a curse in as well before turning around to hit the target with a Cfrag too?

What would happen if you dodged the rune cage and then got hit with the meteor... is that... a templar? Is that... balance? Nah it's just me describing the same scenario you're opposed to with a different class. Down with templars I say.

Silly me. I just hope my templar won't do an average of 4k anymore while every other class is doing 7-12k on average with their burst ability. So much for it being a burst ability. More like a disappointing ability.

Great insight you provided, bud.

You are taking combined tooltips of 2 classes and compare them to one class which is weird to say atleast. Nightblade does not have immobilizes (funnily enough templar have it) , DK does not have execute both classes don't have ranged unblockable knockback and ranged undodgable execute. I don't even know what do You mean by saying "You are getting multi-whipped and multiple instances of an execute". Like do You mean that multiple nb and DKs can spam stuff on You? You do realise that is not DK and nb exclusive? Like what is even Your point here.

Noone is saying much about it because these are mediocre combos. Sorc's execute is dodgable and purgebale and deals execute dmg only to targets under 20% HP which is really weak treshold and dmg tooltip of execute component is also pretty mediocre compared to other executes. This is why less and less sorcs is using it. Runecage have pretty long wind up time and it deals dmg only if stun lasts full 3 seconds so it won't contribute to the combo. If You use runecage and meteor people will just dodge it which will also screw Your crystal frag which is crucial in sorc's burst combo and after the dodge You will have enough time to block meteor. If someone will use meteor and than rune cage than it's the same story people will be able to block meteor and than dodge rune cage due to long wind up time. The only option to make some burst combo is with the streak but if You go that route You will propably not land a crystal frag because enemy will break free from streak and dodge before You do this if You will be waiting with the streak to time it perfectly with the meteor or if You will want to stun enemy early so meteor and frag will later hit together than enemy can break free and block. Enemey have bigger window of time to react against sorc combo than against rangeplar combo while rangeplar have easier combo to land. Sorc in theory could be hitting combos stronger than templar but in reality they are way easier to avoid which is why noone is talking about them and not many people is using them. And don't get me even started on how much of a pain slotting all these abilities You've mentioned is for a magsorc due to severe lack of major/minor buffs and debuffs that class is experiencing.

If that sorc combo would be as strong as You claim wouldn't sorc in that duelling tournament video be using it, especially that he was fighting a templar with a burst combo we are talking about? These two combos are far from being the same. Details matter and templar's combo is superior.

Ok lets give all the classes undodgable ranged execute and unblockanle ranged knockback and also let's give templar reliable burst ability without changing anything else and let's see how that goes. After all if You want things that others have why not give things You have to everyone right? That would surely create healthy and balanced enviroment.

boi_anachronism_

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

To be clear folks: contrary to popular belief templars can not one tap you from the moon. If you are: in cyrodiil, near a keep, and have the reach passive at lvl 2 you get an additional 5m making it 33. Its not a templar passive, its an alliance passive so all classes can use it for any 28m skill. 28m base execute, same as impale would be (mag morph of killers blade). In otherwords under those circumstances impale and radiant have the same range. They cant snipe you across deshaan in a 1x1 nor across the arena in bgs.

So unless there was some wild patch to their passives thats not listed in any tooltip or pc got some kind of add on that allows for moon shots across tamerial for templars idk where 36m+ is coming from. Feel free to enlighten me

Battle spirit :
Damage taken and Shield strength are decreased by 50%
Healing Received is decreased by 55%
Health Recovery is decreased by 50%
Ability range of 28 meters or more increased by 8

So every ability that have 28 meters in PvE have 36 meters in PvP and it's going up to 41 meters with reach passive.

It can theoretically be even extended further by 7 meters if someone wants to meme around with a Siege Shield ability morph, Propelling Shield.

Thanks for claritying since this is situation specific.

To summarize:

- its non-specific to templars affecting all 28m skills including magblade execute

- It cant be used in duels

Undodgable ranged execute is specific to a templar.

Battle spirit also works in duels.

I dont duel i exclusively do cyro so thats new info for me since i honestly havent looked. I assumed it was zoned.

Im not going to wade into this further except to say that it may be undodgeablee but good luck interrupting impale or mages wrath which are both cheaper, quicker, and have the same range. I can whomp a player zigzagging through rocks with those, doing that with beam is uh harder.

It also bears noting that while mages wrath is technically dodgable and blockable (the initial damage) the status effect is not and is sticky so if they fall below 20% they still take that bonus damage meaning the explosion is not. Therefor the execute damage portion itself is undodgeable, unblockable, uninterruptable if it procs.

Galeriano

Dekrypted wrote: »

Rune cage: 28 meters
Binding javelin: 22 meters

Haunting curse: 28 meters no additional mechanic for dmg
Backlash: 28 meters requiring damage done to increase its damage

Mages fury: 28 meters
Radient: 28 meters

Meteor: 28 meters

It's almost as if the guy just doesn't like templars.

@Galeriano could you please explain which one you meant involving this combo? Is it unavoidable or just strong? If it's just strong, why are you not advocating for other classes like sorc to not have the ability to do the same thing?

Galeriano wrote: »

How do You want to use interrupt when You are stunned and just recived unavoidable combo of backlash+javelin+meteor and it left You with so little HP that 1 tick of beam which hits almost instantly will finish You?

Galeriano wrote: »

You've seen to have [Snip] forgotten that I never said it's end of all combo but that it's just really strong combo and changes like buffing backlash dmg would just make it dangerously stronger.

Maybe I should start doing meteor combos on a sorc, and then ball of lightning away and see how few comments I'll get. My range execute, ranged unblockable, but dodgeable cc that has more range than javelin, and my ranged execute, paired with a meteor will fly under the radar. Let's gooooo

[Snip]

Rune cage - 36 meters, long delay making what's coming next sometimes too obvious and easy to prepare for, no dmg unless stun lasts full 3 seconds, sorc kit lacking bar space to even fit it

Biding javelin 22 meters, instant cast unblockable knockback with dmg component, overally fitting way better in templar's combo and toolkit than rune cage fit's in sorc's.

Haunting curse - actually decent ability where the only thing could be some better secondary effects that sorc heavily lacks. Additiopnal mechanic for dmg wheter it's an AoE or another explosion is not that great. Skill was almost as effective as it is right now even when it was just one explosion after 3,5 sec. That being said still a decent ability

Backlash - currently underperofming due to developers making templar too reliant on other abillities that they've made overperforming in certain scenarios.

Mages Fury- 36 meters dodgable execute with decent delayed explosion feature but mediocre bonus execute dmg, application of the debuff to enemy making it easier to dodge and really weak execute treshold. Same as rune cage problematic to find slot for due to sorc's lack of bar space.

Radiant - 36 meters undodgable execute with the strongest bonus dmg scaling in the game , healing+magicka restore on one of the morphs and even more dmg scaling on the other with strong scaling treshold with 2 ticks applied faster than 2 uses of other executes and first tick applied more reliably than majority of other executes.

Meteor - well it's just an ult that everyone have acces to but it fits certain toolkit better than others and currently templar have the best toolkit for it.

It's just like You don't care about balance but just want Your class to be overbuffed on one specific playstyle just so other playstyles would become better when after the changes barely anyone would be playing this other playstyles anymore because one specific playstyle would become too strong to not use it.

[Edited quote/minor bait]

Galeriano

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

To be clear folks: contrary to popular belief templars can not one tap you from the moon. If you are: in cyrodiil, near a keep, and have the reach passive at lvl 2 you get an additional 5m making it 33. Its not a templar passive, its an alliance passive so all classes can use it for any 28m skill. 28m base execute, same as impale would be (mag morph of killers blade). In otherwords under those circumstances impale and radiant have the same range. They cant snipe you across deshaan in a 1x1 nor across the arena in bgs.

So unless there was some wild patch to their passives thats not listed in any tooltip or pc got some kind of add on that allows for moon shots across tamerial for templars idk where 36m+ is coming from. Feel free to enlighten me

Battle spirit :
Damage taken and Shield strength are decreased by 50%
Healing Received is decreased by 55%
Health Recovery is decreased by 50%
Ability range of 28 meters or more increased by 8

So every ability that have 28 meters in PvE have 36 meters in PvP and it's going up to 41 meters with reach passive.

It can theoretically be even extended further by 7 meters if someone wants to meme around with a Siege Shield ability morph, Propelling Shield.

Thanks for claritying since this is situation specific.

To summarize:

- its non-specific to templars affecting all 28m skills including magblade execute

- It cant be used in duels

Undodgable ranged execute is specific to a templar.

Battle spirit also works in duels.

I dont duel i exclusively do cyro so thats new info for me since i honestly havent looked. I assumed it was zoned.

Im not going to wade into this further except to say that it may be undodgeablee but good luck interrupting impale or mages wrath which are both cheaper, quicker, and have the same range. I can whomp a player zigzagging through rocks with those, doing that with beam is uh harder.

It also bears noting that while mages wrath is technically dodgable and blockable (the initial damage) the status effect is not and is sticky so if they fall below 20% they still take that bonus damage meaning the explosion is not. Therefor the execute damage portion itself is undodgeable, unblockable, uninterruptable if it procs.

Impale and mages wrtah are not quicker and they are not interruptable. They are both just dodgable, beam is interruptable. First tick of beam hits split of second faster than impale and mage's wrath and second tick of beam hits way faster than 2nd cast of mages wrath or impale would. You can use LoS even against enemies using impale and mage's wrath and You can still hit enemies using LoS with first tick of beam. You can also help Yourself with hitting enemy with beam by knicking him oput of LoS with javelin. This is one of the reasons why You see templars with beams way more often that nightblades with impales or sorcs with mages wrath.

Mage's wrath status is dodgable. If You dodge the ability You dodge also the application of the debuff. That debuff also can be purged. You have only 4 seconds from application time to dropping enemy to 20% for that explosion to accur which isn't that much especially that You've spend one GCD on application itself. You needs to basically nuke the enemy, otherwise it was a wasted skill cast. When enemy is reaching 20% he can otfen be killed with regular spammable especially that bonus dmg explision on mage's wrath have pretty mediocre value. it's another reason why You don't see it being used that often outside of securing kills in groups where people can just spamm it over and over when others are helping them with bringing enemy down to 20%.

Billium813

Round 6..... FIGHT!

Galeriano

Dekrypted wrote: »

Nightblades have an immobalizing ability...

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/crippling-grasp

Multiple whips was in reference to gophers post where he said one of the points you made about getting multiple executes from was a weak point because if multiple dks were on you, you'd still die because the scenario where you'd die isn't excuse to the encounter with one class versus a skill issue, perceived or otherwise, being in a position that would cause you to die. Saying you'd break free and dodge roll wouldn't save you in that scenario no.matter the class. You'd be getting killed either way.... which is what Gopher told you.

You'd have to ask the magsorc why he's not using a meteor combo in the dueling tournament. While I do duel frequently and participate in other parts of pvp regularly, I stay away from tournaments to avoid the drama.

Perhaps hit him up. He does have a forum account. I said that a sorc can do a similar combo with similar results. You're the one claiming the combo is too strong.. but also claiming it's unavoidable... but then saying it's just strong and not the end all... so... yeah.

Only class with a reliable purge is templar and given the current meta, it's only so reliable given its mag cost. Netch is not really reliable, but lets mention it anyways. Are you assume every non templar is running maras Balm, wyrd tree, curse eater, or the purge cp? That doesn't sound balanced if everyone needs to wear those sets/cp when fighting a sorc 🤔 Your perceived "pain" slotting abilities for a combo on a class is a skill issue and a personal problem. Plenty of players can managed. I've taught some who were disabled and they did well with practice.

The tooltip on rune cage does not specify a wind up time before its activation, however I can assure you the combination of abilities I mentioned will have a similar success rate when going against the average player comparing that with the average templar going against the average player.

Given your lack of research and understanding of what abilities/effects the classes have access to, I'd recommend brushing up on that since you believed that they didn't have it at all. You may need to reread gophers posts as he had quite a few insightful comments along with some of the information of others in the thread.

Like gopher, this too will be my last reply. Arguing for the sake of arguing is counterproductive and that's all this is turning into. Again, have a.. day.

My bad actually I forgot about cripling grasp.

I already responded to gopher's point about spamming multiple whips. Also You are starting to make it all messy by responding to my resonses to responses of other people without even making a quote of what You are responding to.

I know why he didn't use meteor and my previous comment contains answers to that question already. it was more of a rhetorical question.

Sorc cannot do similar combo with similar results. If he could people would be doing it.

I dont know what are You reffering to when talking about purge. I would assume You are responding to my response to someone else's post without making a quote that would point out what are You reffering to. You are making it really hard to follow. If You were reffering to me saying in other post that mage's wrath debuff is purgable than fact that templar can do it is still minus one to the effectiveness of already not that effective ability. it's just one of the ability weaknesses worth mentioning when it's being specifically discussed but not the main ones so I don't know why to make specific point about that especially when it's taken from another discussion. Please do better job with quoting or mentioning what are You reffering to if You want to bring parts of other discussions into this one. I encourage You to show me atleast one magsorc that have managed to slot spammable ability, curse, frag, rune cage/streak and mage's wrath while still having well rounded setup that he is succesfull with. You can also show Yourself doing the same. it's always fun to learn something new. For now every decent sorc I know shares the same opinion as me that one of the magsorc's main pains is lack of skill slots due to having poor amount of major/minor buffs and debuffs through secondary effects. I would be really happy if You would prove us wrong.

First of all "going against the average player" is really not that great argument because in 1v1 against average player You can win with the wierdest setups due to how many mistakes average player is making in 1v1. Second of all no it wont be similarly effective. Like I've said already if it would be as usefull it would be used as often but You barely see it at all. I dont even remember when I was stunned with rune cage last time. I occasionally see defensive rune but rune cage is almost dead ability.

Making an argument out of me forgetting about immobilize on cripling grasp is wierd. It's even more wierd considering that in previous posts You also made few mistakes and forgot few differences between abilities. I really don't see how temporarily forgetting one secondary effect on one ability out of all in the game proves "lack of research and understanding of what abilities/effects the classes have access to".

I agree that arguing for the sake of arguing is counterproductive which is why I was also avoiding responding multiple times to the same arguments I already respodned to, which You recived as avoiding Your arguments.

You also have a nice day.

boi_anachronism_

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

To be clear folks: contrary to popular belief templars can not one tap you from the moon. If you are: in cyrodiil, near a keep, and have the reach passive at lvl 2 you get an additional 5m making it 33. Its not a templar passive, its an alliance passive so all classes can use it for any 28m skill. 28m base execute, same as impale would be (mag morph of killers blade). In otherwords under those circumstances impale and radiant have the same range. They cant snipe you across deshaan in a 1x1 nor across the arena in bgs.

So unless there was some wild patch to their passives thats not listed in any tooltip or pc got some kind of add on that allows for moon shots across tamerial for templars idk where 36m+ is coming from. Feel free to enlighten me

Battle spirit :
Damage taken and Shield strength are decreased by 50%
Healing Received is decreased by 55%
Health Recovery is decreased by 50%
Ability range of 28 meters or more increased by 8

So every ability that have 28 meters in PvE have 36 meters in PvP and it's going up to 41 meters with reach passive.

It can theoretically be even extended further by 7 meters if someone wants to meme around with a Siege Shield ability morph, Propelling Shield.

Thanks for claritying since this is situation specific.

To summarize:

- its non-specific to templars affecting all 28m skills including magblade execute

- It cant be used in duels

Undodgable ranged execute is specific to a templar.

Battle spirit also works in duels.

I dont duel i exclusively do cyro so thats new info for me since i honestly havent looked. I assumed it was zoned.

Im not going to wade into this further except to say that it may be undodgeablee but good luck interrupting impale or mages wrath which are both cheaper, quicker, and have the same range. I can whomp a player zigzagging through rocks with those, doing that with beam is uh harder.

It also bears noting that while mages wrath is technically dodgable and blockable (the initial damage) the status effect is not and is sticky so if they fall below 20% they still take that bonus damage meaning the explosion is not. Therefor the execute damage portion itself is undodgeable, unblockable, uninterruptable if it procs.

Impale and mages wrtah are not quicker and they are not interruptable. They are both just dodgable,

Mage's wrath status is dodgable. If You dodge the ability You dodge also the application of the debuff. That debuff also can be purged.

Yeah. That was the point. And no the status is not dodgable. It is purgable, thats it.

Impale is used less simply because incap is melee anyway so since you need to be in range for that killers blade is a natural choice for more nb builds. As far as sorc. I see it used plenty and ive used it plently so thats a matter of experience.

TechMaybeHic

Why does it feel I am somehow reading an argument that Templar is stronger than NB and DK?

Tyrant_Tim

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Why does it feel I am somehow reading an argument that Templar is stronger than NB and DK?

If all they’re doing on Templar is dueling, then I could see the comparison, but Templar struggles to remain a competitive choice literally anywhere else.

Turtle_Bot

I wish Rune Cage and Mages Fury (especially fury) were good enough to warrant slots on a sorcs bar. Both abilities are just so bad though.

Fury is one of the worst execute abilities in the game, its dodgable, cleansable, blockable, has no execute scaling, has the lowest threshold of ANY execute ability in the game and more often than not it just completely fails to proc because of server lag/desync where the targets client has them healing back up and not proccing the bonus explosion while the casters client clearly shows them not yet healed up, so it just never procs. Fury is such a bad ability that most sorcs just use the frags proc as their "execute" instead (or more commonly bound armaments now since it benefits better off draugrkin) since it does more damage than fury proc and it can be used against enemies above 20% health.

What's even crazier is that frags/curse are starting to be used less and less (especially frags) as sorcs move more and more into the meta pressure builds of MDW + vate + WoF (still uses curse, but BA is common here) or Draugrkin with Crushing shock + bound armaments to attempt to keep up with DK/NB, which both builds utilize overload as their "execute/burst".