Templar Burst ability

BlackHammer225 · November 2023

I want to start by saying I love Templar, I played it for years it's my main class. I don't want anything too powerful for the class but we have to address the elephant in the room before ZOS dor gets about it.

I would like to see some support from the community and any other Templar mains out there about the ability "Backlash" the base morph of Purfifying and Power of the Light.
this ability reminds me of Nightblade's burst ability merciless resolve. I ask if ZOS can please relook at Backlash and help reduce the needed threshold hold for damage because it still doesn't seem to hit as hard as it should in PVP.

I get that there was a reason for the threshold raise but it just pales in comparison to the Nightblade's merciles which are hitting players for 15k or more meanwhile Backlash is 2k - 5k at best even on crit. Mind you I run Deadly Strike, Balorgh, Ring of Majesty, and sometimes Sea Serpant's Coil to up the damage with infused weapon and Spell damage glyphs, and it's not enough.

Hotdog_23 · November 2023

Think it should also hit other players or NPC too instead of just the target. After all, Blastbones, Beetles, Curse and Inhale all hit in an AOE.

Stay safe

mmtaniac · November 2023

Burst ability where? Still looking and can't find one.

Galeriano · November 2023

Problem with templars is that ZoS gave them two very strong abilities in form of beam and javelin and addition of any high dmg delayed burst ability to their kit would just be too much. To change backlash into some reliable high dmg burst ability javelin and beam would have to recive nerfs first.

Gopher · November 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

Problem with templars is that ZoS gave them two very strong abilities in form of beam and javelin and addition of any high dmg delayed burst ability to their kit would just be too much. To change backlash into some reliable high dmg burst ability javelin and beam would have to recive nerfs first.

As someone who plays a lot as a Templar, I've had chats with fellow Templar mains like @Dekrypted, and most of us agree that siphoning damage from the beam ability and funneling it into Jabs and Backlash would be a very welcomed change.

In my opinion, which might not be what most people think, I don't really see the beam as that effective for a JAB-oriented Templar. I put major emphasis on JAB plar. Being in melee range against a templar, I've had moments where I'm being beamed at around 10-15% hp, and I block cast heals, bash, and survive. I have also had moments where I am stunned at low hp then get beamed, in that scenario almost any execute in the game would have killed me. For example, I myself have hit 20k crits on nightblade executes.

I put emphasis on jab plar because range plar is a whole other can of worms. Even as a Templar main myself, I know that a ranged build with Mechanical Acuity is nowhere near fun to fight. It feels as if there is nothing you can do against it, which is why I believe damage should be taken away from beam, as in that scenario it is overperforming, meanwhile in the other scenario, it is not as helpful.

I believe that redistributing damage away from the beam won't hurt melee-oriented Templars much, especially since the beam isn't as powerful in close combat. Having the damage moved to our Jabs and Backlash would help us significantly more than beam would. Plus, it could level the playing field against the aforementioned ranged Templars who rely too much on beam attacks, sitting back and being a beambot is neither fun to play or to fight against, which is unfortunately a playstyle that many Templar players are stuck with right now.

boi_anachronism_ · November 2023

If they do that there would have to be a significant change to power of the light as well. Having a major drop in ro would hit pve templars very badly. We dont use jabs at all, we drop it in execute so redirecting it to that represents a massive damage loss for those builds. This is why they dont redirect that kind of damage to jabs from beam Ro becomes our spammable during execute. Its the only thing that currently makes them viable as trial dps. The only other option would be to leave the other morphs as is and change rg and backlash and leave power of the light and oppression as is. Id rather not see the full damage classes be reduced to just dk and arc.

I play plar in pvp as well so i do understand where you are coming from but there has got to be a better solution if beam is being altered then moving a bunch of it to jabs.

Gopher · November 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

If they do that there would have to be a significant change to power of the light as well. Having a major drop in rg would hit pve templars very badly. We dont use jabs at all, we drop it in execute so redirecting it to that represents a massive damage loss for those builds. This is why they dont redirect that kind of damage to jabs from rg. Rg becomes our spammable during execute. Its the only thing that currently makes them viable as trial dps currently.

This reply only further proves how wonky the balancing in this game is. One class can go from being incredible for PvE during execute phases but leaves a lot to be desired in PvP.

Also I don't entirely agree with you, coming from someone who also parses on magplar. If they redirected enough damage from beam to jabs and backlash, you would only need to continue parsing until the boss dies, and if enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed.

My point was never to remove damage from attacks, it was simply to redirect it. So theoretically there is a net damage loss of zero as it has just been shifted by which skills said damage is coming from.

boi_anachronism_ · November 2023

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

If they do that there would have to be a significant change to power of the light as well. Having a major drop in rg would hit pve templars very badly. We dont use jabs at all, we drop it in execute so redirecting it to that represents a massive damage loss for those builds. This is why they dont redirect that kind of damage to jabs from rg. Rg becomes our spammable during execute. Its the only thing that currently makes them viable as trial dps currently.

This reply only further proves how wonky the balancing in this game is. One class can go from being incredible for PvE during execute phases but leaves a lot to be desired in PvP.

Also I don't entirely agree with you, coming from someone who also parses on magplar. If they redirected enough damage from beam to jabs and backlash, you would only need to continue parsing until the boss dies, and if enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed.

My point was never to remove damage from attacks, it was simply to redirect it. So theoretically there is a net damage loss of zero as it has just been shifted by which skills said damage is coming from.

So heres my one of my main issues with this- depending on the size of the nerf pumping enough damage into a spammable and something like PoL to make up for the damage loss is just going to create a situation where you will get hit with a very cheap, very powerful duration based attack that is instant cast. in otherwords it can be recast over and over and then smacked with a powerful spammable that brings you down into execute so quickly it wont matter if it has a lower percentage for execute or not, channel time would become almost irrelevant. It would take way less ticks to kill you. In pvp half the battle is draining your opponent of resources so the only way i see that being balanced is by making pol a lot more expensive which would significantly effect the class as many of its other skills are quite expensive already. The other possibility is that they nerf it and other skills get a marginal buff which would hurt the class further. Part of ro is that it is a channel, depends on ticks, can be avoided in a number of ways, is only viable below 35% and can be easily interrupted. I dont see doing that as being a boon to pvp overall, personally i think it would create even less balance.

And as far as a full damage pve plar- what is the point of even having an execute at all if jabs is going to be more powerful to that level? Your effectively talking about trading 2 usable but underpowered skills for making one absolutely useless.

Look id love to see temps get some power come back to the class prior to execute but this is a really thin line to tread without creating another nb situation. Jabs should definitely get a buff but as far as what is being purposed to do that...if they plan to change ro I dont think thats the way to go and i definitely would never be in favor of something that makes it essentially irrelevant.

Galeriano · November 2023

Dekrypted wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Problem with templars is that ZoS gave them two very strong abilities in form of beam and javelin and addition of any high dmg delayed burst ability to their kit would just be too much. To change backlash into some reliable high dmg burst ability javelin and beam would have to recive nerfs first.

Piggybacking off of @Gopher as well as addressing a specific line in here.

Javelin is not "very strong". It's an unblockable stun. I'm not sure how many people experienced the days where templar didn't have a class unblockable and or undodgeable cc, but it was honestly pretty lame. It lacked consistency in landing combos because the only reliable thing it had that it could use as a CC was Turn Evil and if you were even any amount of range, you just didn't really have one that was reliable.

Looking at every class briefly for what classes have something that is either undodgeable or unblockable for a CC

Dragonkinghts:
Petrify and both morphs are both undodgeable and unblockable
Dragon Leap and it's respective morphs are aoe ccs meaning undodgeable, but blockable

Sorcerers:
Initial cast on Summon Storm Atronach and it's respective morphs is an aoe cc, meaning undodgeable. (I cannot remember if its unblockable, but I know you cannot dodge it)
Summon Volatile Familiar has an aoe cc attached to it as well. Aoe meaning you cannot dodge it
Bolt Escape and Streak are undodgeable and unblockable
Rune Prison and it's respective morphs are unblockable and if I'm not mistaken, its possible to purge the stun before it actives however the window to do this is nearly impossible and is unreliable.

Nightblades:
Soul Shred and Soul Tether are both AOE ccs meaning.... They're undodgeable
Aspect of Terror and its respective morphs are both undodgeable and unblockable

Wardens:
Arctic Blast (at one time was undodgeable and unblockable) is now in its current iteration undodgeable, but blockable
Feral Guardian and its respective morphs have an CC that is blockable, not dodgeable. 100% unreliable.

Necromancers:
Bone Totem and it's respective morphs are undodgeable and unblockable
Grave Grasp and it's respective morphs have a root and aoe cc built into it meaning blockable, but undodgeable

Arcanists:
Rune of Eldritch Horror and its respective morphs have a blockable, but undodgeable CC
Uniquely arcanists can make themselves immune to Crowd Control abilities/effects for 6 seconds when using Runeguard of Freedom.

Lastly Templars:
Piercing Javelin and it's respective morphs are dodgeable, but unblockable
Eclipse and Unstable Core have a delayed CC based on attacks the enemy does within 4 seconds. Can be purged, is unblockable due to skill behavior and can only be applied to 1 target at a time

What is a templar supposed to do within its class kit if Javelin is nerfed? Are you saying templars shouldn't have a CC that is remotely in line with every class? How does that make any sense? Being honest, it doesn't. There's nothing wrong with Piercing Javelin and its respective morphs. There is something wrong with where the damage across the class is allocated.

Pulling damage from the execute and adding it back into Burning Light and Backlash and its morphs makes the most logical sense to rebalance the damage within the class. The developers have said that the damage is in line with other classes. Accepting this premise, why isn't it seen and reflected in feedback of the people playing it? Because the damage is too weighted into it's execute. The damage needs to be reallocated away from the execute and I for one would not mind a majority of its damage being pulled off and allocated elsewhere between Jabs, Burning Light, and Backlash like it used to be as outside of jabs, it allowed for alot more flexibility and build diversity within the class from a Player Experience perspective.

I know what I said was a bit of a mouthful and did not address the efficacy of these stuns, but I wanted to keep it simple just to address the basics here. Nothing wrong with Javelin. Alot wrong with the allocation of damage across the class.

Problem with javelin is that it's not just a stun but that it's a ranged unblockable knockback. That creates way more posibilities than many others stuns You've mentioned especially when combined with undodgable ranged execute.

I am not saying that templars shouldn't have a CC I am saying that having a ranged unblockable knockback and ranged undodgable execute creates enviroment where one dev mistake can be very destructive for game balance.

As for moving part of the beam dmg into burning light and backlash it's not as logical as You think. There is many moving parts in play and not all of them would be affected in a positive way. It was not just some cincidence that devs changed burning light and backlash in the first place. There were issues with those two also. Templar in general was always a problematic class since it's the only class before 2023 relying so heavily on cast times and channels.

BlackHammer225 · November 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

Problem with templars is that ZoS gave them two very strong abilities in form of beam and javelin and addition of any high dmg delayed burst ability to their kit would just be too much. To change backlash into some reliable high dmg burst ability javelin and beam would have to recive nerfs first.

Sure I see your point, but when the ability is meant to be a burst ability like haunting curse or subterranean assault it deserves to hit hard even if the class has a good execute because everyone can use TH execute or Whirlwind from dual-wield for follow-up damage. The ability should be on the same damage potential level as the other but javelin is the same as Petrify or Turn Evil from fighter guild all it does really is provide a guaranteed stun that is unblockable the damage is fine, not game-changing.

mmtaniac · November 2023

This means we need a little redirection of damage from one thing to another. Execute can still be good if it's give some extra utility even with lesser damage. Everything can be good with small extra utility. Last change to repentence and how passive work changes my whole perspective to ability and it's usefulness. Finally after many years i started consider this ability on my skill bar not big change just a little. Whole templar class is like that , in some places are needed just small thing to make things usefull i don't want big buffs but some little attractions here and there.

Gopher · November 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

If they do that there would have to be a significant change to power of the light as well. Having a major drop in rg would hit pve templars very badly. We dont use jabs at all, we drop it in execute so redirecting it to that represents a massive damage loss for those builds. This is why they dont redirect that kind of damage to jabs from rg. Rg becomes our spammable during execute. Its the only thing that currently makes them viable as trial dps currently.

This reply only further proves how wonky the balancing in this game is. One class can go from being incredible for PvE during execute phases but leaves a lot to be desired in PvP.

Also I don't entirely agree with you, coming from someone who also parses on magplar. If they redirected enough damage from beam to jabs and backlash, you would only need to continue parsing until the boss dies, and if enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed.

My point was never to remove damage from attacks, it was simply to redirect it. So theoretically there is a net damage loss of zero as it has just been shifted by which skills said damage is coming from.

So heres my one of my main issues with this- depending on the size of the nerf pumping enough damage into a spammable and something like PoL to make up for the damage loss is just going to create a situation where you will get hit with a very cheap, very powerful duration based attack that is instant cast. in otherwords it can be recast over and over and then smacked with a powerful spammable that brings you down into execute so quickly it wont matter if it has a lower percentage for execute or not, channel time would become almost irrelevant. It would take way less ticks to kill you. In pvp half the battle is draining your opponent of resources so the only way i see that being balanced is by making pol a lot more expensive which would significantly effect the class as many of its other skills are quite expensive already. The other possibility is that they nerf it and other skills get a marginal buff which would hurt the class further. Part of ro is that it is a channel, depends on ticks, can be avoided in a number of ways, is only viable below 35% and can be easily interrupted. I dont see doing that as being a boon to pvp overall, personally i think it would create even less balance.

And as far as a full damage pve plar- what is the point of even having an execute at all if jabs is going to be more powerful to that level? Your effectively talking about trading 2 usable but underpowered skills for making one absolutely useless.

Look id love to see temps get some power come back to the class prior to execute but this is a really thin line to tread without creating another nb situation. Jabs should definitely get a buff but as far as what is being purposed to do that...if they plan to change ro I dont think thats the way to go and i definitely would never be in favor of something that makes it essentially irrelevant.

What I meant by my post was to direct the damage from beam where it is overperforming. Hitting like 150k on a parse dummy in one tick of the execute is obviously a bit much, and bringing it down to other executes would just make sense. There would still be a reason to use the execute but you would have to keep up other abilities such as Backlash, which would now have even more damage to make up for the change in beam.

Not once did I say to entirely gut beam, I said to take some of its damage and put it on abilities that are lacking. I've seen crit ticks on beam hit in pvp for 17k dmg, meanwhile an average crit from backlash is anywhere from 4-6k, and for it to hit 6k you need to parse someone with their buffs down nonstop.

And even if the ability itself was gutted, add it to the list of things templar has that is also useless, like blazing shield. The class is desperate for some changes, and its obvious that they have no intentions on changing anything, so my thought process was to simply move damage from an ability that is commonly being brought up when talking about overperforming abilities, and move it to ones that are underperforming.

bar_boss_A · November 2023

There are many easy solutions to the problem. Let me present one:

Remove PotL entirely as a class burst ability and give it back to tanks. Instead take either Sun Fire or just the Vampire's Bane morph and let it apply its damage over 5-6s ticking every 1s.

This would have several advantages:

new unique burst ability fitting the templar theme
easier to balance (PotL seems to never be at a good spot, it has been a constant on the forums either asking for a buff or a nerf)
It is a direct hit against vampires undead passive and would bring templar on par with DKs purging those beasts.
still reliable proccing prism and illuminate passives
additional flame proc chance to make space for a small jesus beam nerf

And one disadvantage/oppurtunity:
Enduring Rays passive should exclude Sun Fire -> it could be a chance to rework that passive into something usefull

Tyrant_Tim · November 2023

There are so many burst abilities on Templar with horrible damage.

Just look at Eclipse, Dark Flare, and Sun Shield.

If any of those three skills did decent damage, it would be as simple as combining it with Power of the Light to create your burst window but none of them do enough to warrant slotting.

Back in the day when you could animation cancel Dark Flare, rely on Total Dark to explode after several seconds and reflect burst with Sun Shield it was the golden age of Templar, now it feels like all skill has been ripped out of the class.

Tyrant_Tim · November 2023

Okay, a lot to breakdown there.

First. Dark Flare has a travel time. Back when you could clip the ending of the animation, you could land a Topple and that Flare at the exact moment your Backlash went off creating a burst.

Second, Total Dark no longer exists, all we have now are Unstable Core and Living Dark. Total Dark was an ability that bounced ranged skills back at your opponent, and blew up after several seconds. The skill would detonate simultaneously with your other skills creating a burst.

Third, Sun Shield… we’ll be more specific, Blazing Shield was an ability that would last more than .5 seconds and when you were fighting DoTs you could count down your detonation to time it with your other skills creating that desirable burst.

Now how this all ties in, is that when considering how much burst damage already allotted to the class, it explains why we don’t have a single skill that does well. It’s all spread out.

Our problem is not that Radiant does good damage, it’s that we have several skills that fit under “burst” that don’t do enough damage.

Two completely isolated, independent things, and one needing improvement does not mean the other needs to be destroyed. Templar already isn’t a top pick for trials DD, even with our “super broken busted OP beam” that pales in comparison to Fatecarver, a skill that shreds regardless of health percentage, so I doubt buffing a skill that isn’t part of the rotation would change that, where I KNOW that buffing Power of the Light will encroach on Nightblade Single Target numbers and get our loudest most populated section of the playerbase shouting in the streets.

TechMaybeHic · November 2023

Skill reworks are one thing but not the concrete demise of the class.

I would argue that jabs damage is not a problem. The burning light nerf is what went too far. They nerfed possible frequency and potency in the name of making it useable on everything and it became almost a non factor.

Backlash probably needed a nerf and they said their intentions were to lower the top end while making a more reliable base. Problem is; the base is still nearly zero if it's purged and we've had a set that auto purged since the change at varying degrees of prominence; and a meta that very much encourages purgung. And damage pre -execute is not where it can really stack a lot in its duration.

I'm not one for shifting beam into another ability as a tradeoff though, as then it will just become about the next ability. Kind of tiresome to go from jab bot, to beam bot, to whatever is next. I won't waste my time thinking of a solution either as I'm sure even if ZOS does make adjustments; they'll do something nobody asked for

Billium813 · November 2023

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Kind of tiresome to go from jab bot, to beam bot, to whatever is next. I won't waste my time thinking of a solution either as I'm sure even if ZOS does make adjustments; they'll do something nobody asked for

This.

It seems like they feel the need to subvert expectations like they're Rian Johnson. ZOS has a COMPLETELY different take on the game; which is totally nebulous and seems to run counter to how their players feel.

boi_anachronism_ · November 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Okay, a lot to breakdown there.

First. Dark Flare has a travel time. Back when you could clip the ending of the animation, you could land a Topple and that Flare at the exact moment your Backlash went off creating a burst.

Second, Total Dark no longer exists, all we have now are Unstable Core and Living Dark. Total Dark was an ability that bounced ranged skills back at your opponent, and blew up after several seconds. The skill would detonate simultaneously with your other skills creating a burst.

Third, Sun Shield… we’ll be more specific, Blazing Shield was an ability that would last more than .5 seconds and when you were fighting DoTs you could count down your detonation to time it with your other skills creating that desirable burst.

Now how this all ties in, is that when considering how much burst damage already allotted to the class, it explains why we don’t have a single skill that does well. It’s all spread out.

Our problem is not that Radiant does good damage, it’s that we have several skills that fit under “burst” that don’t do enough damage.

Two completely isolated, independent things, and one needing improvement does not mean the other needs to be destroyed. Templar already isn’t a top pick for trials DD, even with our “super broken busted OP beam” that pales in comparison to Fatecarver, a skill that shreds regardless of health percentage, so I doubt buffing a skill that isn’t part of the rotation would change that, where I KNOW that buffing Power of the Light will encroach on Nightblade Single Target numbers and get our loudest most populated section of the playerbase shouting in the streets.

Exacly my sentiment. As mentioned in my post PoL would just make the class so unbalanced with a knockdown, spammable burst that is very powerful which also gives breach.

"pumping enough damage into a spammable and something like PoL to make up for the damage loss is just going to create a situation where you will get hit with a very cheap, very powerful duration based attack that is instant cast. in otherwords it can be recast over and over and then smacked with a powerful spammable that brings you down into execute so quickly it wont matter if it has a lower percentage for execute or not, channel time would become almost irrelevant."

" this is a really thin line to tread without creating another nb situation."

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

If they do that there would have to be a significant change to power of the light as well. Having a major drop in rg would hit pve templars very badly. We dont use jabs at all, we drop it in execute so redirecting it to that represents a massive damage loss for those builds. This is why they dont redirect that kind of damage to jabs from rg. Rg becomes our spammable during execute. Its the only thing that currently makes them viable as trial dps currently.

This reply only further proves how wonky the balancing in this game is. One class can go from being incredible for PvE during execute phases but leaves a lot to be desired in PvP.

Also I don't entirely agree with you, coming from someone who also parses on magplar. If they redirected enough damage from beam to jabs and backlash, you would only need to continue parsing until the boss dies, and if enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed.

My point was never to remove damage from attacks, it was simply to redirect it. So theoretically there is a net damage loss of zero as it has just been shifted by which skills said damage is coming from.

So heres my one of my main issues with this- depending on the size of the nerf pumping enough damage into a spammable and something like PoL to make up for the damage loss is just going to create a situation where you will get hit with a very cheap, very powerful duration based attack that is instant cast. in otherwords it can be recast over and over and then smacked with a powerful spammable that brings you down into execute so quickly it wont matter if it has a lower percentage for execute or not, channel time would become almost irrelevant. It would take way less ticks to kill you. In pvp half the battle is draining your opponent of resources so the only way i see that being balanced is by making pol a lot more expensive which would significantly effect the class as many of its other skills are quite expensive already. The other possibility is that they nerf it and other skills get a marginal buff which would hurt the class further. Part of ro is that it is a channel, depends on ticks, can be avoided in a number of ways, is only viable below 35% and can be easily interrupted. I dont see doing that as being a boon to pvp overall, personally i think it would create even less balance.

And as far as a full damage pve plar- what is the point of even having an execute at all if jabs is going to be more powerful to that level? Your effectively talking about trading 2 usable but underpowered skills for making one absolutely useless.

Look id love to see temps get some power come back to the class prior to execute but this is a really thin line to tread without creating another nb situation. Jabs should definitely get a buff but as far as what is being purposed to do that...if they plan to change ro I dont think thats the way to go and i definitely would never be in favor of something that makes it essentially irrelevant.

What I meant by my post was to direct the damage from beam where it is overperforming. Hitting like 150k on a parse dummy in one tick of the execute is obviously a bit much, and bringing it down to other executes would just make sense. There would still be a reason to use the execute but you would have to keep up other abilities such as Backlash, which would now have even more damage to make up for the change in beam.

Not once did I say to entirely gut beam, I said to take some of its damage and put it on abilities that are lacking. I've seen crit ticks on beam hit in pvp for 17k dmg, meanwhile an average crit from backlash is anywhere from 4-6k, and for it to hit 6k you need to parse someone with their buffs down nonstop.

And even if the ability itself was gutted, add it to the list of things templar has that is also useless, like blazing shield. The class is desperate for some changes, and its obvious that they have no intentions on changing anything, so my thought process was to simply move damage from an ability that is commonly being brought up when talking about overperforming abilities, and move it to ones that are underperforming.

You entirely missed what my reasoning is that I am extremely hesitant about the kind of change you suggested.

Directly from your above post - "If enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed."

Once more: I do believe the class needs to be revisited and adjustments made however i believe your solution is too simplistic and doesnt consider the ramifications. One further point: you suggest bringing it into line with other executes. Well why would anyone even use it then? Its just too risky. You are just too vulnerable with it being a channel. It wouldn't be worthwile relative to payout.

Bluestin · November 2023

I would love to see the damage rebalanced on Burning Light/Puncturing sweeps/Backlash with a nerf to Radiant destruction. I haven't been able to really enjoy Templar since the melee aspect of it died in favor of the ranged focused set up of javelin/Beam.

Back then Radiant destruction was optional for melee Templars and common on ranged Templars but these days it's one of the only ways to play Templar and do damage which means it's just not for me.

Personally I enjoyed rushing into battle with that old golden spear (And a solid backlash + Charge + dots combo) and fighting people face to face like a knight. With the state of the game lately I'm watching with hope from the sidelines for some rebalances to the game.

ElderSmitter · November 2023

BlackHammer225 wrote: »

I want to start by saying I love Templar, I played it for years it's my main class. I don't want anything too powerful for the class but we have to address the elephant in the room before ZOS dor gets about it.

I would like to see some support from the community and any other Templar mains out there about the ability "Backlash" the base morph of Purfifying and Power of the Light.
this ability reminds me of Nightblade's burst ability merciless resolve. I ask if ZOS can please relook at Backlash and help reduce the needed threshold hold for damage because it still doesn't seem to hit as hard as it should in PVP.

I get that there was a reason for the threshold raise but it just pales in comparison to the Nightblade's merciles which are hitting players for 15k or more meanwhile Backlash is 2k - 5k at best even on crit. Mind you I run Deadly Strike, Balorgh, Ring of Majesty, and sometimes Sea Serpant's Coil to up the damage with infused weapon and Spell damage glyphs, and it's not enough.

They Just lowered the Threshold in Update i believe 39 after raising the Threshold prior to that.

VinnyGambini · November 2023

Just for reference:

- Backlash 200% maxium dmg tooltip - 3852 - But enemy can roll dodge, block, and you wont accumulate enough dmg
- Grim focus - 4182 AND adds 300 wep/spell dmg so in reality MORE
- Crystal fragments (66% powered) - 4122 - but this is spammable ability
- Stalking blastbones (max 50% increase) - 5400
- Molten whip - 3716 - But this is spammbable AND adds 300 wep/spell dmg so in reality MORE
- Deep fissure - 3600 - But adds major + minor breach + it is AOE.

Am I the only one who thinks has the worst burst ability in the game?

mmtaniac · November 2023

Healing is nothing if i can't deal damage. Try to kill someone with healing. They should add set that converse your aoe healing in damage and templar will become god of the gods.

Turtle_Bot · November 2023

Dekrypted wrote: »

Sorcerers:
Initial cast on Summon Storm Atronach and it's respective morphs is an aoe cc, meaning undodgeable. (I cannot remember if its unblockable, but I know you cannot dodge it)
Summon Volatile Familiar has an aoe cc attached to it as well. Aoe meaning you cannot dodge it
Bolt Escape and Streak are undodgeable and unblockable
Rune Prison and it's respective morphs are unblockable and if I'm not mistaken, its possible to purge the stun before it actives however the window to do this is nearly impossible and is unreliable.

Just to add some clarification here, Rune prison and morphs have a roughly 1-2 second delay on its attempted stun that can be dodged as well as purged (with dodge roll being a hard counter to almost everything else sorc tries to throw at you).

It also creates large purple floating crystals with a unique sound effect above its target about 1 second before it attempts to stun, basically screaming dodge now! at its target, unlike something like fossilize that is immediate, also roots and has no visual indication until after you're stunned (there's a reason no sorcerer runs rune prison and haven't ran it for years now).

I wouldn't say its impossible to purge the stun, it takes some awareness, but it is possible to do (but it is much easier to simply dodge roll it, which also has the advantage of dodging the rest of sorcs burst at the same time).

Yes, back when it was an instant stun (long time ago), it was definitely much stronger (hence why it also got nerfed with the delay long ago).

familiar stun is also on a 4 second delay (only the second pulse stuns and it pulses once every 2 seconds).

I wish they would clarify the atro stun, I would assume it can be blocked (like the familiar stun) as the stuns that cannot be blocked (streak/rune prison) specifically state that they cannot be blocked, which atro and familiar don't state.

FYI, I'm not against plar getting some of its beam damage redistributed to jabs/PotL to better balance the entire kit, just wanted to add some clarification on the sorc CC options where I could is all.

FoJul · November 2023

I agree that Templar damage needs to be reworked. Templar DOES have a lot of skills not worth slotting. I've tried to theory craft builds for PvP templar for friends and others. Which I've done the best I could several times.

I will say in my journey of templar, Backlash and both of its morphs are underwhelming. As a skill, I found my self doing better with taking it off of my bar completely.

When using power of the light AND jabs, I was fighting a losing battle. As I reverted myself and went back to rangeplar, I understand the pain of templar mains who only get to play one playstyle. (As a swallow soul magblade I understand what it feels like to play something for fun and not strength)

That being said, I think templar is a pretty solid class outside of those 2 abilities. I agree to @Gopher about moving some of the power from beam, and giving the 2 abilities mentioned above some love.

Most templar's I see now are literal heal bots that try to beam you at 100% health and hope for someone else to burst you. This is teaching new players bad habits. Keeping them from getting better and relying on VETS to do the hard part for them.

Its possible for Templar to have procs and what not and be a pressure dps, but without hard hitting abilities like backlash and its morphs or having a decent spammable like jabs makes it impossible to play burstier. And in this tank Meta ZoS has left us in, burst is the only way.

Gopher · November 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Okay, a lot to breakdown there.

First. Dark Flare has a travel time. Back when you could clip the ending of the animation, you could land a Topple and that Flare at the exact moment your Backlash went off creating a burst.

Second, Total Dark no longer exists, all we have now are Unstable Core and Living Dark. Total Dark was an ability that bounced ranged skills back at your opponent, and blew up after several seconds. The skill would detonate simultaneously with your other skills creating a burst.

Third, Sun Shield… we’ll be more specific, Blazing Shield was an ability that would last more than .5 seconds and when you were fighting DoTs you could count down your detonation to time it with your other skills creating that desirable burst.

Now how this all ties in, is that when considering how much burst damage already allotted to the class, it explains why we don’t have a single skill that does well. It’s all spread out.

Our problem is not that Radiant does good damage, it’s that we have several skills that fit under “burst” that don’t do enough damage.

Two completely isolated, independent things, and one needing improvement does not mean the other needs to be destroyed. Templar already isn’t a top pick for trials DD, even with our “super broken busted OP beam” that pales in comparison to Fatecarver, a skill that shreds regardless of health percentage, so I doubt buffing a skill that isn’t part of the rotation would change that, where I KNOW that buffing Power of the Light will encroach on Nightblade Single Target numbers and get our loudest most populated section of the playerbase shouting in the streets.

Exacly my sentiment. As mentioned in my post PoL would just make the class so unbalanced with a knockdown, spammable burst that is very powerful which also gives breach.

"pumping enough damage into a spammable and something like PoL to make up for the damage loss is just going to create a situation where you will get hit with a very cheap, very powerful duration based attack that is instant cast. in otherwords it can be recast over and over and then smacked with a powerful spammable that brings you down into execute so quickly it wont matter if it has a lower percentage for execute or not, channel time would become almost irrelevant."

" this is a really thin line to tread without creating another nb situation."

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

If they do that there would have to be a significant change to power of the light as well. Having a major drop in rg would hit pve templars very badly. We dont use jabs at all, we drop it in execute so redirecting it to that represents a massive damage loss for those builds. This is why they dont redirect that kind of damage to jabs from rg. Rg becomes our spammable during execute. Its the only thing that currently makes them viable as trial dps currently.

This reply only further proves how wonky the balancing in this game is. One class can go from being incredible for PvE during execute phases but leaves a lot to be desired in PvP.

Also I don't entirely agree with you, coming from someone who also parses on magplar. If they redirected enough damage from beam to jabs and backlash, you would only need to continue parsing until the boss dies, and if enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed.

My point was never to remove damage from attacks, it was simply to redirect it. So theoretically there is a net damage loss of zero as it has just been shifted by which skills said damage is coming from.

So heres my one of my main issues with this- depending on the size of the nerf pumping enough damage into a spammable and something like PoL to make up for the damage loss is just going to create a situation where you will get hit with a very cheap, very powerful duration based attack that is instant cast. in otherwords it can be recast over and over and then smacked with a powerful spammable that brings you down into execute so quickly it wont matter if it has a lower percentage for execute or not, channel time would become almost irrelevant. It would take way less ticks to kill you. In pvp half the battle is draining your opponent of resources so the only way i see that being balanced is by making pol a lot more expensive which would significantly effect the class as many of its other skills are quite expensive already. The other possibility is that they nerf it and other skills get a marginal buff which would hurt the class further. Part of ro is that it is a channel, depends on ticks, can be avoided in a number of ways, is only viable below 35% and can be easily interrupted. I dont see doing that as being a boon to pvp overall, personally i think it would create even less balance.

And as far as a full damage pve plar- what is the point of even having an execute at all if jabs is going to be more powerful to that level? Your effectively talking about trading 2 usable but underpowered skills for making one absolutely useless.

Look id love to see temps get some power come back to the class prior to execute but this is a really thin line to tread without creating another nb situation. Jabs should definitely get a buff but as far as what is being purposed to do that...if they plan to change ro I dont think thats the way to go and i definitely would never be in favor of something that makes it essentially irrelevant.

What I meant by my post was to direct the damage from beam where it is overperforming. Hitting like 150k on a parse dummy in one tick of the execute is obviously a bit much, and bringing it down to other executes would just make sense. There would still be a reason to use the execute but you would have to keep up other abilities such as Backlash, which would now have even more damage to make up for the change in beam.

Not once did I say to entirely gut beam, I said to take some of its damage and put it on abilities that are lacking. I've seen crit ticks on beam hit in pvp for 17k dmg, meanwhile an average crit from backlash is anywhere from 4-6k, and for it to hit 6k you need to parse someone with their buffs down nonstop.

And even if the ability itself was gutted, add it to the list of things templar has that is also useless, like blazing shield. The class is desperate for some changes, and its obvious that they have no intentions on changing anything, so my thought process was to simply move damage from an ability that is commonly being brought up when talking about overperforming abilities, and move it to ones that are underperforming.

You entirely missed what my reasoning is that I am extremely hesitant about the kind of change you suggested.

Directly from your above post - "If enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed."

Once more: I do believe the class needs to be revisited and adjustments made however i believe your solution is too simplistic and doesnt consider the ramifications. One further point: you suggest bringing it into line with other executes. Well why would anyone even use it then? Its just too risky. You are just too vulnerable with it being a channel. It wouldn't be worthwile relative to payout.

Replying to bolded section. Especially the part "Why would anyone use it?"

First off, people would still use it for those who want to remain being beambots or rangeplars in PvP.

The way you write these replies are as if Templar was struggling without beam, when it absolutely wasn't. During High isle, in PvP beam was still an okay ability to use, but it was just outshined by jabs and backlash, which was a perfect idea, with emphasis on the word "Idea" because the execution of this idea was flawed.

Even from a Templar main in PvP, I can wholeheartedly say that 20k backlash is way too much, and it shouldn't do that, but it also shouldn't struggle to get 6k.
Using a ranged execute while being on a melee build is just wrong, which is something plars are forced into doing now, and your response of "why would anyone use it" on a jabplar, no one would. Which is exactly what my goal is. Let jabplars do good burst damage without then having to rely on a ranged execute to secure the kill.

And for PvE, watch some parse videos from High Isle, they do not use beam and I've still seen people hit 130k dps. Those who did use beam just started using it at 25% rather than 50% and their dps was still very good. All that the beam changes have done, is make Templar's parse more brainless.

FoJul · November 2023

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Okay, a lot to breakdown there.

First. Dark Flare has a travel time. Back when you could clip the ending of the animation, you could land a Topple and that Flare at the exact moment your Backlash went off creating a burst.

Second, Total Dark no longer exists, all we have now are Unstable Core and Living Dark. Total Dark was an ability that bounced ranged skills back at your opponent, and blew up after several seconds. The skill would detonate simultaneously with your other skills creating a burst.

Third, Sun Shield… we’ll be more specific, Blazing Shield was an ability that would last more than .5 seconds and when you were fighting DoTs you could count down your detonation to time it with your other skills creating that desirable burst.

Now how this all ties in, is that when considering how much burst damage already allotted to the class, it explains why we don’t have a single skill that does well. It’s all spread out.

Our problem is not that Radiant does good damage, it’s that we have several skills that fit under “burst” that don’t do enough damage.

Two completely isolated, independent things, and one needing improvement does not mean the other needs to be destroyed. Templar already isn’t a top pick for trials DD, even with our “super broken busted OP beam” that pales in comparison to Fatecarver, a skill that shreds regardless of health percentage, so I doubt buffing a skill that isn’t part of the rotation would change that, where I KNOW that buffing Power of the Light will encroach on Nightblade Single Target numbers and get our loudest most populated section of the playerbase shouting in the streets.

Exacly my sentiment. As mentioned in my post PoL would just make the class so unbalanced with a knockdown, spammable burst that is very powerful which also gives breach.

"pumping enough damage into a spammable and something like PoL to make up for the damage loss is just going to create a situation where you will get hit with a very cheap, very powerful duration based attack that is instant cast. in otherwords it can be recast over and over and then smacked with a powerful spammable that brings you down into execute so quickly it wont matter if it has a lower percentage for execute or not, channel time would become almost irrelevant."

" this is a really thin line to tread without creating another nb situation."

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

If they do that there would have to be a significant change to power of the light as well. Having a major drop in rg would hit pve templars very badly. We dont use jabs at all, we drop it in execute so redirecting it to that represents a massive damage loss for those builds. This is why they dont redirect that kind of damage to jabs from rg. Rg becomes our spammable during execute. Its the only thing that currently makes them viable as trial dps currently.

This reply only further proves how wonky the balancing in this game is. One class can go from being incredible for PvE during execute phases but leaves a lot to be desired in PvP.

Also I don't entirely agree with you, coming from someone who also parses on magplar. If they redirected enough damage from beam to jabs and backlash, you would only need to continue parsing until the boss dies, and if enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed.

My point was never to remove damage from attacks, it was simply to redirect it. So theoretically there is a net damage loss of zero as it has just been shifted by which skills said damage is coming from.

So heres my one of my main issues with this- depending on the size of the nerf pumping enough damage into a spammable and something like PoL to make up for the damage loss is just going to create a situation where you will get hit with a very cheap, very powerful duration based attack that is instant cast. in otherwords it can be recast over and over and then smacked with a powerful spammable that brings you down into execute so quickly it wont matter if it has a lower percentage for execute or not, channel time would become almost irrelevant. It would take way less ticks to kill you. In pvp half the battle is draining your opponent of resources so the only way i see that being balanced is by making pol a lot more expensive which would significantly effect the class as many of its other skills are quite expensive already. The other possibility is that they nerf it and other skills get a marginal buff which would hurt the class further. Part of ro is that it is a channel, depends on ticks, can be avoided in a number of ways, is only viable below 35% and can be easily interrupted. I dont see doing that as being a boon to pvp overall, personally i think it would create even less balance.

And as far as a full damage pve plar- what is the point of even having an execute at all if jabs is going to be more powerful to that level? Your effectively talking about trading 2 usable but underpowered skills for making one absolutely useless.

Look id love to see temps get some power come back to the class prior to execute but this is a really thin line to tread without creating another nb situation. Jabs should definitely get a buff but as far as what is being purposed to do that...if they plan to change ro I dont think thats the way to go and i definitely would never be in favor of something that makes it essentially irrelevant.

What I meant by my post was to direct the damage from beam where it is overperforming. Hitting like 150k on a parse dummy in one tick of the execute is obviously a bit much, and bringing it down to other executes would just make sense. There would still be a reason to use the execute but you would have to keep up other abilities such as Backlash, which would now have even more damage to make up for the change in beam.

Not once did I say to entirely gut beam, I said to take some of its damage and put it on abilities that are lacking. I've seen crit ticks on beam hit in pvp for 17k dmg, meanwhile an average crit from backlash is anywhere from 4-6k, and for it to hit 6k you need to parse someone with their buffs down nonstop.

And even if the ability itself was gutted, add it to the list of things templar has that is also useless, like blazing shield. The class is desperate for some changes, and its obvious that they have no intentions on changing anything, so my thought process was to simply move damage from an ability that is commonly being brought up when talking about overperforming abilities, and move it to ones that are underperforming.

You entirely missed what my reasoning is that I am extremely hesitant about the kind of change you suggested.

Directly from your above post - "If enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed."

Once more: I do believe the class needs to be revisited and adjustments made however i believe your solution is too simplistic and doesnt consider the ramifications. One further point: you suggest bringing it into line with other executes. Well why would anyone even use it then? Its just too risky. You are just too vulnerable with it being a channel. It wouldn't be worthwile relative to payout.

Replying to bolded section. Especially the part "Why would anyone use it?"

First off, people would still use it for those who want to remain being beambots or rangeplars in PvP.

The way you write these replies are as if Templar was struggling without beam, when it absolutely wasn't. During High isle, in PvP beam was still an okay ability to use, but it was just outshined by jabs and backlash, which was a perfect idea, with emphasis on the word "Idea" because the execution of this idea was flawed.

Even from a Templar main in PvP, I can wholeheartedly say that 20k backlash is way too much, and it shouldn't do that, but it also shouldn't struggle to get 6k.
Using a ranged execute while being on a melee build is just wrong, which is something plars are forced into doing now, and your response of "why would anyone use it" on a jabplar, no one would. Which is exactly what my goal is. Let jabplars do good burst damage without then having to rely on a ranged execute to secure the kill.

And for PvE, watch some parse videos from High Isle, they do not use beam and I've still seen people hit 130k dps. Those who did use beam just started using it at 25% rather than 50% and their dps was still very good. All that the beam changes have done, is make Templar's parse more brainless.

I remember seeing a video, of a known legend doing 200k+ parse without beam...Yk before the crazy nerfs.

Turtle_Bot · November 2023

Dekrypted wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

Sorcerers:
Initial cast on Summon Storm Atronach and it's respective morphs is an aoe cc, meaning undodgeable. (I cannot remember if its unblockable, but I know you cannot dodge it)
Summon Volatile Familiar has an aoe cc attached to it as well. Aoe meaning you cannot dodge it
Bolt Escape and Streak are undodgeable and unblockable
Rune Prison and it's respective morphs are unblockable and if I'm not mistaken, its possible to purge the stun before it actives however the window to do this is nearly impossible and is unreliable.

Just to add some clarification here, Rune prison and morphs have a roughly 1-2 second delay on its attempted stun that can be dodged as well as purged (with dodge roll being a hard counter to almost everything else sorc tries to throw at you).

It also creates large purple floating crystals with a unique sound effect above its target about 1 second before it attempts to stun, basically screaming dodge now! at its target, unlike something like fossilize that is immediate, also roots and has no visual indication until after you're stunned (there's a reason no sorcerer runs rune prison and haven't ran it for years now).

I wouldn't say its impossible to purge the stun, it takes some awareness, but it is possible to do (but it is much easier to simply dodge roll it, which also has the advantage of dodging the rest of sorcs burst at the same time).

Yes, back when it was an instant stun (long time ago), it was definitely much stronger (hence why it also got nerfed with the delay long ago).

familiar stun is also on a 4 second delay (only the second pulse stuns and it pulses once every 2 seconds).

I wish they would clarify the atro stun, I would assume it can be blocked (like the familiar stun) as the stuns that cannot be blocked (streak/rune prison) specifically state that they cannot be blocked, which atro and familiar don't state.

FYI, I'm not against plar getting some of its beam damage redistributed to jabs/PotL to better balance the entire kit, just wanted to add some clarification on the sorc CC options where I could is all.

Appreciate the clarification on the purging/dodging component of the skill. Not many use it these days, including myself.

Glad I could help. Yeah, Rune prison is not worth the slot unfortunately and hasn't been for a long, long time, so nobody really knows what it does unless they are remembering the OP version from many years ago.

I think what makes Javelin seem so strong compared to rune prison (at least to me), is javelin is just a travel time. If you are up close with javelin, its a 400(?)ms window for the target to dodge it, but at longer ranges its much closer to the .8 second window, while rune prison is just a flat 1-2 second dodge window with the tells I mentioned before, no matter how close or far you are to the target.

I actually really like where javelin is currently at, both design and balance wise. It's a strong single target CC option that has good design as well as balance. It has good skill display in both using and countering it (being close to reduce the dodge window, vs creating distance to make the dodge window easier or timing the dodge right).
It is easy to use, but hard to master it, meaning anyone can pick it up and have decent results from using it, but to truly get the best out of it, takes skill and learning the ability and its counters.

robpr · November 2023

Lazy approach:
Giving Backlash flat damage each proc like Haunting Curse and getting rid of buildup, while adding some ramping damage to Jabs (more you Jab, higher damage goes, I don't know, increasing crit chance stacks?) and giving back some functionality do make Backlash stand out.
PL: Healing pool like it does now or just healing for damage caused
Potl: Applies Major and Minor Breach

mmtaniac · December 2023

Majors are on unmorphed Puncturing Strikes.
Biting Jabs apply unique debuff that stack 10 times 300 armor penetration per stack for 5 second timer refresh every new stack. When purged you purge whole debuff and templar need to start from scratch. No cooldown to apply.
Magicka one are stay the same.

boi_anachronism_ · December 2023

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Okay, a lot to breakdown there.

First. Dark Flare has a travel time. Back when you could clip the ending of the animation, you could land a Topple and that Flare at the exact moment your Backlash went off creating a burst.

Second, Total Dark no longer exists, all we have now are Unstable Core and Living Dark. Total Dark was an ability that bounced ranged skills back at your opponent, and blew up after several seconds. The skill would detonate simultaneously with your other skills creating a burst.

Third, Sun Shield… we’ll be more specific, Blazing Shield was an ability that would last more than .5 seconds and when you were fighting DoTs you could count down your detonation to time it with your other skills creating that desirable burst.

Now how this all ties in, is that when considering how much burst damage already allotted to the class, it explains why we don’t have a single skill that does well. It’s all spread out.

Our problem is not that Radiant does good damage, it’s that we have several skills that fit under “burst” that don’t do enough damage.

Two completely isolated, independent things, and one needing improvement does not mean the other needs to be destroyed. Templar already isn’t a top pick for trials DD, even with our “super broken busted OP beam” that pales in comparison to Fatecarver, a skill that shreds regardless of health percentage, so I doubt buffing a skill that isn’t part of the rotation would change that, where I KNOW that buffing Power of the Light will encroach on Nightblade Single Target numbers and get our loudest most populated section of the playerbase shouting in the streets.

Exacly my sentiment. As mentioned in my post PoL would just make the class so unbalanced with a knockdown, spammable burst that is very powerful which also gives breach.

"pumping enough damage into a spammable and something like PoL to make up for the damage loss is just going to create a situation where you will get hit with a very cheap, very powerful duration based attack that is instant cast. in otherwords it can be recast over and over and then smacked with a powerful spammable that brings you down into execute so quickly it wont matter if it has a lower percentage for execute or not, channel time would become almost irrelevant."

" this is a really thin line to tread without creating another nb situation."

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

If they do that there would have to be a significant change to power of the light as well. Having a major drop in rg would hit pve templars very badly. We dont use jabs at all, we drop it in execute so redirecting it to that represents a massive damage loss for those builds. This is why they dont redirect that kind of damage to jabs from rg. Rg becomes our spammable during execute. Its the only thing that currently makes them viable as trial dps currently.

This reply only further proves how wonky the balancing in this game is. One class can go from being incredible for PvE during execute phases but leaves a lot to be desired in PvP.

Also I don't entirely agree with you, coming from someone who also parses on magplar. If they redirected enough damage from beam to jabs and backlash, you would only need to continue parsing until the boss dies, and if enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed.

My point was never to remove damage from attacks, it was simply to redirect it. So theoretically there is a net damage loss of zero as it has just been shifted by which skills said damage is coming from.

So heres my one of my main issues with this- depending on the size of the nerf pumping enough damage into a spammable and something like PoL to make up for the damage loss is just going to create a situation where you will get hit with a very cheap, very powerful duration based attack that is instant cast. in otherwords it can be recast over and over and then smacked with a powerful spammable that brings you down into execute so quickly it wont matter if it has a lower percentage for execute or not, channel time would become almost irrelevant. It would take way less ticks to kill you. In pvp half the battle is draining your opponent of resources so the only way i see that being balanced is by making pol a lot more expensive which would significantly effect the class as many of its other skills are quite expensive already. The other possibility is that they nerf it and other skills get a marginal buff which would hurt the class further. Part of ro is that it is a channel, depends on ticks, can be avoided in a number of ways, is only viable below 35% and can be easily interrupted. I dont see doing that as being a boon to pvp overall, personally i think it would create even less balance.

And as far as a full damage pve plar- what is the point of even having an execute at all if jabs is going to be more powerful to that level? Your effectively talking about trading 2 usable but underpowered skills for making one absolutely useless.

Look id love to see temps get some power come back to the class prior to execute but this is a really thin line to tread without creating another nb situation. Jabs should definitely get a buff but as far as what is being purposed to do that...if they plan to change ro I dont think thats the way to go and i definitely would never be in favor of something that makes it essentially irrelevant.

What I meant by my post was to direct the damage from beam where it is overperforming. Hitting like 150k on a parse dummy in one tick of the execute is obviously a bit much, and bringing it down to other executes would just make sense. There would still be a reason to use the execute but you would have to keep up other abilities such as Backlash, which would now have even more damage to make up for the change in beam.

Not once did I say to entirely gut beam, I said to take some of its damage and put it on abilities that are lacking. I've seen crit ticks on beam hit in pvp for 17k dmg, meanwhile an average crit from backlash is anywhere from 4-6k, and for it to hit 6k you need to parse someone with their buffs down nonstop.

And even if the ability itself was gutted, add it to the list of things templar has that is also useless, like blazing shield. The class is desperate for some changes, and its obvious that they have no intentions on changing anything, so my thought process was to simply move damage from an ability that is commonly being brought up when talking about overperforming abilities, and move it to ones that are underperforming.

You entirely missed what my reasoning is that I am extremely hesitant about the kind of change you suggested.

Directly from your above post - "If enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed."

Once more: I do believe the class needs to be revisited and adjustments made however i believe your solution is too simplistic and doesnt consider the ramifications. One further point: you suggest bringing it into line with other executes. Well why would anyone even use it then? Its just too risky. You are just too vulnerable with it being a channel. It wouldn't be worthwile relative to payout.

Replying to bolded section. Especially the part "Why would anyone use it?"

First off, people would still use it for those who want to remain being beambots or rangeplars in PvP.

The way you write these replies are as if Templar was struggling without beam, when it absolutely wasn't. During High isle, in PvP beam was still an okay ability to use, but it was just outshined by jabs and backlash, which was a perfect idea, with emphasis on the word "Idea" because the execution of this idea was flawed.

Even from a Templar main in PvP, I can wholeheartedly say that 20k backlash is way too much, and it shouldn't do that, but it also shouldn't struggle to get 6k.
Using a ranged execute while being on a melee build is just wrong, which is something plars are forced into doing now, and your response of "why would anyone use it" on a jabplar, no one would. Which is exactly what my goal is. Let jabplars do good burst damage without then having to rely on a ranged execute to secure the kill.

And for PvE, watch some parse videos from High Isle, they do not use beam and I've still seen people hit 130k dps. Those who did use beam just started using it at 25% rather than 50% and their dps was still very good. All that the beam changes have done, is make Templar's parse more brainless.

So just to be clear you are admittedly contradicting yourself and you want to make an execute useless. Ok. I am quite familar with what they were capable of in high isle, thanks. You act as if you are the only one with experience with the class. Maybe you could clarify why on earth you think a ranged execute on a melee class is wrong. That makes utterly no sense.it allows viable builds for both ranged AND melee plars with execute being ranged, making jabs the stronger option means melee would have a distinct advantage. NB has a ranged execute when it is a class that absolutely suffers with only being able to use its class ultis in melee? There was a reason plar had those 2 abilities nerfed, they were way overperforming in pvp for exactly the same reasons i pointed out would happen again. Im not sayng they werent over nerfed but the fact is thats what zos does. To take enough from beam to balance out the damage loss would create exactly that situation all over again. Factually beam would be a terrible execute compared to every other because of the channel time. Its a joke to suggest otherwise.

Gopher · December 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Okay, a lot to breakdown there.

First. Dark Flare has a travel time. Back when you could clip the ending of the animation, you could land a Topple and that Flare at the exact moment your Backlash went off creating a burst.

Second, Total Dark no longer exists, all we have now are Unstable Core and Living Dark. Total Dark was an ability that bounced ranged skills back at your opponent, and blew up after several seconds. The skill would detonate simultaneously with your other skills creating a burst.

Third, Sun Shield… we’ll be more specific, Blazing Shield was an ability that would last more than .5 seconds and when you were fighting DoTs you could count down your detonation to time it with your other skills creating that desirable burst.

Now how this all ties in, is that when considering how much burst damage already allotted to the class, it explains why we don’t have a single skill that does well. It’s all spread out.

Our problem is not that Radiant does good damage, it’s that we have several skills that fit under “burst” that don’t do enough damage.

Two completely isolated, independent things, and one needing improvement does not mean the other needs to be destroyed. Templar already isn’t a top pick for trials DD, even with our “super broken busted OP beam” that pales in comparison to Fatecarver, a skill that shreds regardless of health percentage, so I doubt buffing a skill that isn’t part of the rotation would change that, where I KNOW that buffing Power of the Light will encroach on Nightblade Single Target numbers and get our loudest most populated section of the playerbase shouting in the streets.

Exacly my sentiment. As mentioned in my post PoL would just make the class so unbalanced with a knockdown, spammable burst that is very powerful which also gives breach.

"pumping enough damage into a spammable and something like PoL to make up for the damage loss is just going to create a situation where you will get hit with a very cheap, very powerful duration based attack that is instant cast. in otherwords it can be recast over and over and then smacked with a powerful spammable that brings you down into execute so quickly it wont matter if it has a lower percentage for execute or not, channel time would become almost irrelevant."

" this is a really thin line to tread without creating another nb situation."

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Gopher wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

If they do that there would have to be a significant change to power of the light as well. Having a major drop in rg would hit pve templars very badly. We dont use jabs at all, we drop it in execute so redirecting it to that represents a massive damage loss for those builds. This is why they dont redirect that kind of damage to jabs from rg. Rg becomes our spammable during execute. Its the only thing that currently makes them viable as trial dps currently.

This reply only further proves how wonky the balancing in this game is. One class can go from being incredible for PvE during execute phases but leaves a lot to be desired in PvP.

Also I don't entirely agree with you, coming from someone who also parses on magplar. If they redirected enough damage from beam to jabs and backlash, you would only need to continue parsing until the boss dies, and if enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed.

My point was never to remove damage from attacks, it was simply to redirect it. So theoretically there is a net damage loss of zero as it has just been shifted by which skills said damage is coming from.

So heres my one of my main issues with this- depending on the size of the nerf pumping enough damage into a spammable and something like PoL to make up for the damage loss is just going to create a situation where you will get hit with a very cheap, very powerful duration based attack that is instant cast. in otherwords it can be recast over and over and then smacked with a powerful spammable that brings you down into execute so quickly it wont matter if it has a lower percentage for execute or not, channel time would become almost irrelevant. It would take way less ticks to kill you. In pvp half the battle is draining your opponent of resources so the only way i see that being balanced is by making pol a lot more expensive which would significantly effect the class as many of its other skills are quite expensive already. The other possibility is that they nerf it and other skills get a marginal buff which would hurt the class further. Part of ro is that it is a channel, depends on ticks, can be avoided in a number of ways, is only viable below 35% and can be easily interrupted. I dont see doing that as being a boon to pvp overall, personally i think it would create even less balance.

And as far as a full damage pve plar- what is the point of even having an execute at all if jabs is going to be more powerful to that level? Your effectively talking about trading 2 usable but underpowered skills for making one absolutely useless.

Look id love to see temps get some power come back to the class prior to execute but this is a really thin line to tread without creating another nb situation. Jabs should definitely get a buff but as far as what is being purposed to do that...if they plan to change ro I dont think thats the way to go and i definitely would never be in favor of something that makes it essentially irrelevant.

What I meant by my post was to direct the damage from beam where it is overperforming. Hitting like 150k on a parse dummy in one tick of the execute is obviously a bit much, and bringing it down to other executes would just make sense. There would still be a reason to use the execute but you would have to keep up other abilities such as Backlash, which would now have even more damage to make up for the change in beam.

Not once did I say to entirely gut beam, I said to take some of its damage and put it on abilities that are lacking. I've seen crit ticks on beam hit in pvp for 17k dmg, meanwhile an average crit from backlash is anywhere from 4-6k, and for it to hit 6k you need to parse someone with their buffs down nonstop.

And even if the ability itself was gutted, add it to the list of things templar has that is also useless, like blazing shield. The class is desperate for some changes, and its obvious that they have no intentions on changing anything, so my thought process was to simply move damage from an ability that is commonly being brought up when talking about overperforming abilities, and move it to ones that are underperforming.

You entirely missed what my reasoning is that I am extremely hesitant about the kind of change you suggested.

Directly from your above post - "If enough damage was pumped back into those two attacks then the execute would not even be needed."

Once more: I do believe the class needs to be revisited and adjustments made however i believe your solution is too simplistic and doesnt consider the ramifications. One further point: you suggest bringing it into line with other executes. Well why would anyone even use it then? Its just too risky. You are just too vulnerable with it being a channel. It wouldn't be worthwile relative to payout.

Replying to bolded section. Especially the part "Why would anyone use it?"

First off, people would still use it for those who want to remain being beambots or rangeplars in PvP.

The way you write these replies are as if Templar was struggling without beam, when it absolutely wasn't. During High isle, in PvP beam was still an okay ability to use, but it was just outshined by jabs and backlash, which was a perfect idea, with emphasis on the word "Idea" because the execution of this idea was flawed.

Even from a Templar main in PvP, I can wholeheartedly say that 20k backlash is way too much, and it shouldn't do that, but it also shouldn't struggle to get 6k.
Using a ranged execute while being on a melee build is just wrong, which is something plars are forced into doing now, and your response of "why would anyone use it" on a jabplar, no one would. Which is exactly what my goal is. Let jabplars do good burst damage without then having to rely on a ranged execute to secure the kill.

And for PvE, watch some parse videos from High Isle, they do not use beam and I've still seen people hit 130k dps. Those who did use beam just started using it at 25% rather than 50% and their dps was still very good. All that the beam changes have done, is make Templar's parse more brainless.

So just to be clear you are admittedly contradicting yourself and you want to make an execute useless. Ok. I am quite familar with what they were capable of in high isle, thanks. You act as if you are the only one with experience with the class. Maybe you could clarify why on earth you think a ranged execute on a melee class is wrong. That makes utterly no sense.it allows viable builds for both ranged AND melee plars with execute being ranged, making jabs the stronger option means melee would have a distinct advantage. NB has a ranged execute when it is a class that absolutely suffers with only being able to use its class ultis in melee? There was a reason plar had those 2 abilities nerfed, they were way overperforming in pvp for exactly the same reasons i pointed out would happen again. To take enough from beam to balance out the damage loss would create exactly that situation all over again. Factually beam would be a terrible execute compared to every other because of the channel time. Its a joke to suggest otherwise.

Not once did I say make the beam useless. Even if I said anything remotely close to that, my point was "even if it was made useless, jab plars would STILL have more fun".

You make points about ranged magblades being forced to use incap, you raise this point like I had been defending it? I agree that a ranged build should not be forced to use melee abilities. Same for melee builds, they should not be forced to use ranged abilities, what about this makes "utterly no sense" as you stated.

The reason beam can be bashed is because it is a RANGED execute. You use it from range so that people cannot bash you out of it. So why on earth would I use an ability that is not meant to be used in melee range, on a melee build?

The way you write your reply is very.. very incorrect. Crushing weapon and elemental weapon is an extremely strong spammable for ranged templars, having a buff to backlash would only help rangeplars, reigning back the damage of beam is what would make it more balanced. How would buffing jabs affect rangeplar at all? It already has a good spammable. The only difference it would make is that now both rangeplar and jabplar are both viable. Jabplar would have no "distinct" advantage over rangeplar. To be honest it would still probably be rangeplar that has the advantage like it does right now.

I said reverting the damage of beam to a time when it was useable, not annoyingly strong, and to a time when jabplars werent forced to use ranged executes and could actually rely on their MELEE abilities to secure kills reliably.

Here's two videos for you,

[Snip]

[Snip]

Both have beam, this was before it was buffed and its still working fine, except now ranged builds have the option to use it, and melee builds are not FORCED to use it

[Snip]

[Edited for naming/shaming & minor bait]