spartaxoxo wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Why? Is there some unwritten rule what arenas should and shouldn't require?

A company can't claim a piece of content encourages build diversity if only one setup can have even the limited success of clearing regular vet. The developers were very clear that is what EA archive was designed to do. And the visions and verses also telegraph to the player that is what is intended. Your argument completely ignores the advertised design of the content.

All 3 roles can clear regular vet in arenas but Endless Archive only allows 1 role is not build diversity.

There is a singular mob (and not even all versions of the mob, this build handled the water marauder with ease) that it doesn't handle well. The rest of it's actually easy as long as the mechs are being handled.

A DPS that is tankier than a normal DPS should be built (I had effectively 45k ish when shielded, which I maintained constantly. I did NOT get one shot by anything, even the marauder) and two forms of healing, should be able to use verses and visions to complete the content.

The defensive verse and visions options are not good compared to the offensive ones, but that would be a non-issue if it wasn't for a single mob.

I was literally able to stand inside an entire pack of mobs and accidentally fiddle around with my menu without even paying them any attention. That's how well that build handled all other content.

A fact you're completely ignoring when making the claim that it's a poor build for EA. It's not a poor build for EA, it's a poor build for a single marauder in particular.

Nothing in video games would ever be balanced if went by "well a single player type can beat it so it's balanced."

And I'm sorry but I've seen information about the weakening enchant. If the meta build is just cheese and oversight, then that's also not balance.

Please provide me with a quote from developers saying that every setup will be equally effective in doing EA, or that any piece of content in the game will allow that equality. Have You ever heared about metas? They've been in the game for almost 10 years ,enough time to understand that some setups will be stronger than others and You won't be able to clear everything however You want to. Build diversity doesn't mean You will be able to effectively complete everything in whatever You want. 10 years was enough time to understand that.

Please show me a pure healer or a tank clearing vMA or vet vateshran. Not adjusted healer or tank since You oppose that idea and refuse to adjust Your DD, I am talking pure healer or tank. Preferably from the times these arenas were released. You cannot find anything like that? Oh no does that mean vateshran and maesltrom doesn't allow build diversity? [snip]

Yes that one marauder is the toughest out of all 3. So? Adjust Your setup and You will beat him. It's not a regular mob it's a tough boss so expect a tough boss fight.

And You had 29k HP when not shielded which is pretty low value if You want to venture further into EA. People with more shields than You are running 40k+ HP and capped resistances. Problem with shields is that they're not real HP extensions in places like EA since block mitigation doesn't apply to them and You will have to use block in certain fights. It really doesn't matter what You had but rather how effective that is and You shields and forms of healing are simply not very effective. You can slap ring of the pale order and that item alone will give You many times more healing than Your two sources of healing gave You. You can use heartland+torug and infused 2h weapon with shield dmg enchant and that combined with enchantments buffing vision will give You way better shields passively than what You've been spamming actively. [snip]

Actually 3 out of the 4 strongest visions are utility ones. When it comes to verses there is like 2-3 strong ones in all types.

[snip]

Your build is a poor EA build. That marauder is just a hint what would be happening in later arcs. Please show me anyone who is trying to progress EA with one bar HA setup and gets to later arcs with it.

There will never be a true balance in any MMO. When it comes to EA there is many setups that can venture pretty far, Yours is just not one of them. Adjust or stay behind. It's that simple.

[edited for baiting]

Ixilduur wrote: »

So what is it, nerf arcanist or buff all other class by at least 20%? I go with the later one because no class should be nerf but instead make the rest of classes better and tuned.

When it comes to balancing things, yes if one class is overperforming in general than it should be nerfed. Problem with buffing everything else isntead of nerfing one thing is that You will cause more balance issues that way.

Galeriano wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMRA_FZEQTY

The marauders have huge range, huge bleeds, and huge light attack damage. Like if you spawn in a small room, it's so difficult to kite around the way you need to because the amount of damage they dish out is so large. This is honestly the most frustrating enemy in EA. And this is after dropping even more skills for more defense, which honestly in some ways made the fight harder than it was before because the adds didn't die quick enough.

27k HP oakensoul HA magsorc in arc 4? You kinda asked for that outcome.

A solo arena shouldn't require only a particular role before even a regular vet clear. That's not just "wear meta" gear for a role, that's eliminating a role entirely.

Nor was it a typical Oakensoul setup. It had 29k HP without shields, but shield health upped that considerably. And I ran TWO of those (my ult was barrier). I also ran bound armaments which gave me the resolve that didn't come on the ring, upping my damage resistance as well.

I also swapped my helmet for Mighty Chudan.

At that level of damage mitigation, it barely qualifies as a DPS any more.

I did not have a single skill on my bar that did not also have a defensive purpose.

Edit: Here's the full fight, that is a LOT of punishment this build is taking. And it's lost a lot of damage in return.

https://youtu.be/p5WryhCFHOI?si=JAzuSNXvruMt-YNc

Why? Is there some unwritten rule what arenas should and shouldn't require? Also as I said it to You multiple times You should stop treating EA like other arenas, it's not the same type of content. And it doesn't require a specific role but rather to be a decent mix of all roles.

It kinda was a typical oakensoul setup. Switching 1-2 abilities and 1 gear piece can be hardly called a meaningull change.

That level of dmg mitigation still qualifies as DD. Damage dealers in dungeons, arenas and trials can reach better defensive stats than You had and does it mean they are no longer qualified as dmg dealers? Funnily enough when properly prepared You can get more DPS in EA than top trial DDs while having higher stats than PvE tanks. It's just a matter of knowing what to do and how to do it instead of being stubborn and forcefully trying to do something the old ways and being sad it doesn't work. Don't expect for every future content in the game to cater to Your desires just because You don't want to adapt.

You did not have a single purely offensive skill on Your bar because You decided to limit Yourself with a poor setup choices when going into a content with increasingly high difficulty level which obviously at some point will require more than what You brought. It's like walking with a broomstick into a swordfight. You will be doing well until enemies of Yours wont unsheath their weapons. It's time to realize that oakesnoul HA setup in EA have its limits.

If content doesn't fit ESO's predilection for making most content easy to suit the greater casual gamer market, then what do we expect other than the majority of complainants to come from those the game mainly caters for, the second a harder non-casual element is introduced!

Rowjoh wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMRA_FZEQTY

The marauders have huge range, huge bleeds, and huge light attack damage. Like if you spawn in a small room, it's so difficult to kite around the way you need to because the amount of damage they dish out is so large. This is honestly the most frustrating enemy in EA. And this is after dropping even more skills for more defense, which honestly in some ways made the fight harder than it was before because the adds didn't die quick enough.

27k HP oakensoul HA magsorc in arc 4? You kinda asked for that outcome.

A solo arena shouldn't require only a particular role before even a regular vet clear. That's not just "wear meta" gear for a role, that's eliminating a role entirely.

Nor was it a typical Oakensoul setup. It had 29k HP without shields, but shield health upped that considerably. And I ran TWO of those (my ult was barrier). I also ran bound armaments which gave me the resolve that didn't come on the ring, upping my damage resistance as well.

I also swapped my helmet for Mighty Chudan.

At that level of damage mitigation, it barely qualifies as a DPS any more.

I did not have a single skill on my bar that did not also have a defensive purpose.

Edit: Here's the full fight, that is a LOT of punishment this build is taking. And it's lost a lot of damage in return.

https://youtu.be/p5WryhCFHOI?si=JAzuSNXvruMt-YNc

Why? Is there some unwritten rule what arenas should and shouldn't require? Also as I said it to You multiple times You should stop treating EA like other arenas, it's not the same type of content. And it doesn't require a specific role but rather to be a decent mix of all roles.

It kinda was a typical oakensoul setup. Switching 1-2 abilities and 1 gear piece can be hardly called a meaningull change.

That level of dmg mitigation still qualifies as DD. Damage dealers in dungeons, arenas and trials can reach better defensive stats than You had and does it mean they are no longer qualified as dmg dealers? Funnily enough when properly prepared You can get more DPS in EA than top trial DDs while having higher stats than PvE tanks. It's just a matter of knowing what to do and how to do it instead of being stubborn and forcefully trying to do something the old ways and being sad it doesn't work. Don't expect for every future content in the game to cater to Your desires just because You don't want to adapt.

You did not have a single purely offensive skill on Your bar because You decided to limit Yourself with a poor setup choices when going into a content with increasingly high difficulty level which obviously at some point will require more than what You brought. It's like walking with a broomstick into a swordfight. You will be doing well until enemies of Yours wont unsheath their weapons. It's time to realize that oakesnoul HA setup in EA have its limits.

If content doesn't fit ESO's predilection for making most content easy to suit the greater casual gamer market, then what do we expect other than the majority of complainants to come from those the game mainly caters for, the second a harder non-casual element is introduced!

Funnily enough EA also fits that predilection to some degree. Arc one is designed specifically to be for a more casual players.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Why? Is there some unwritten rule what arenas should and shouldn't require?

A company can't claim a piece of content encourages build diversity if only one setup can have even the limited success of clearing regular vet. The developers were very clear that is what EA archive was designed to do. And the visions and verses also telegraph to the player that is what is intended. Your argument completely ignores the advertised design of the content.

All 3 roles can clear regular vet in arenas but Endless Archive only allows 1 role is not build diversity.

There is a singular mob (and not even all versions of the mob, this build handled the water marauder with ease) that it doesn't handle well. The rest of it's actually easy as long as the mechs are being handled.

A DPS that is tankier than a normal DPS should be built (I had effectively 45k ish when shielded, which I maintained constantly. I did NOT get one shot by anything, even the marauder) and two forms of healing, should be able to use verses and visions to complete the content.

The defensive verse and visions options are not good compared to the offensive ones, but that would be a non-issue if it wasn't for a single mob.

I was literally able to stand inside an entire pack of mobs and accidentally fiddle around with my menu without even paying them any attention. That's how well that build handled all other content.

A fact you're completely ignoring when making the claim that it's a poor build for EA. It's not a poor build for EA, it's a poor build for a single marauder in particular.

Nothing in video games would ever be balanced if went by "well a single player type can beat it so it's balanced."

And I'm sorry but I've seen information about the weakening enchant. If the meta build is just cheese and oversight, then that's also not balance.

Please provide me with a quote from developers saying that every setup will be equally effective in doing EA, or that any piece of content in the game will allow that equality.

I didn't state that I expected to be equally effective. META is a term about score pushing, leaderboaring, etc. It is NOT about a regular clear.

And META is typically about what players of each role should equip, not about the elimination of roles entirely.

The devs explicitly stated that it would be about build diversity. They have contributed several defensive verses intended to help players who lack defense in favor of damage complete the content.

And they are not working because of a single add.

It needs a nerf, it's as simple as that. The entire design doesn't work because of one add is not the fault of the player.

Galeriano wrote: »

[snip]

Adjusting 80% of your skills, your gear, and your CP is NOT refusing to make changes. I did NOT go in there on a pure DPS build. A player in gear that isn't all focused on damage and NO pure damage skills on their bar is not a pure DPS. Adjusted tanks, healers, and DPS can all clear VMA. Hell, they can get flawless conqueror. It is perfectly reasonable to expect that an adjusted DPS, healer, or tank can clear Arc 4. And they can if they just don't end up with a single marauder at arc 3/4. Literally snoozed past one of the other ones.

On top of that, I am already doing well enough in there to be on top of other players. Leaderboard player, with every other solo achievement to my name. And absolutely none of it was handed to me.

There is NO variety to the builds allowed. One role is not variety.

And btw here's a tank making the same sorts of adjustments I made (tweaks like mundus swap) while still being an overall tank build getting flawless conqueror.

https://youtu.be/9UcpZUwPx1A?si=k3N309qKeVepBDpi

Here's some more tanks.

https://youtu.be/YezJru_0ouM?si=Wo99zxpZCwl6NHdA

https://youtu.be/hrm-14R97S8?si=75j8PRZOTREgCAKD

He shouldn't need to be a pure DPS to beat vma. And I shouldn't need to be a tank to at least clear Arc 4, which is supposed to be the equivalent to a regular, non-hardmode vet clear.

[edited to remove quote]

You kinda suggested that by continously complaining that Your setup can't do certain things. It's kinda wierd to think that as long as You're not going for a leadeboard score than meta doesn't exist. No, meta is not a term about scorepushing and leadebroards. Meta is just what works best in certain type of content no matter wheter it's regular, or score run. If meta would be just term used for scorepushing and leaderboard than how there can be meta in PvP for players who are not even signed to a specific campaign or even meta in non fight related subjects like gathering materials? Is term "meta" not applying to setups used by them only because they don;t participate in a scorepushing? Regular clears also have a meta setups that will work better than other options. Denying it is just silly.

I don't understand Your continous need to repeat the same sencetnce about elimination of roles which is a lie. Roles are not eliminated it's just different ruleset for each role than in other types of content. You either adjust to that ruleset or fail. Do You also complain that 40k HP 30k resistance PvE brawler can't compete DPS wise with full damage oriented setups in trials? Also suggesting that only tank role is allowed is kinda silly considering that 40k+ HP and 30k+ resistances setup can easily break 100k single target DPS on bosses. Definietly tank numbers there.

Show me a quote where "the devs explicitly stated that it would be about build diversity" and show me also a prove that build diversity doesn't exist in EA. As it stands right now most of the top scores for each class in solo EA runs was made in different setups not in one and the same setup so it makes claims about lack of build diversity a pure false. IS there meta in EA? Yes. Is meta the only way to get into later arcs? No. But that dopesn;t mean every setup will be able to get into later arcs either. There is plenty of different builds that allow You to venture into later arcs. Not using any of them is Your personal choice.

Marauder is not an add, it's a boss. Denying reality won't change it. Like I said marauders in earlier stages are just a hint of what will come in later ones. Your setup wouldn't work even in trash fights past arc 6. Don't expect for a setup where Your only source of offense is to hold one button and with mediocre defense to work great all the way in a content that is specifically designed to challenge Your skill and Your setup.

If it's not a marauder it will be something else in later arcs. You will die anyway. it not like Your setup would be enough to beat arcs 6+ if it wasn't for marauders. Belive me it wouldn't. Removing or nerfing that marauder will give You maybe one more arc while greatly taking away fun for many players who like this random challenging boss encounters in a content designed to be challenging past certain point. If You die to a marauder that's Your fault for not preparing properly to a boss fight which marauder's fights are.

You kinda proved my point with these videos. None of the videos You have shown is a pure tank. They've all made lots of damage adjustments through gear, atributes, skills and CPs. In all honesty none of them is even a tank anymore but rather a brawler DD. How dare devs to not allow pure tank to clear vMA so many years after release! Why are they forcing pure tank players to adjust their setups to get more damage and turn more into DD than a tank. It turns vMA into a content that requires one role because You need both defense and damage. That was a sarcasm btw. Your adjustments on the other hand can be barely even called an adjustments and it's not a sarcasm. You just swapped 2 abilities and 1 gear piece and You expect to go far into a content designed to be increasingly challenging. Oh and FYI people can beat vMA right now because it have no requirements at all. That is why You see different setups completing it. This is also why in my earlier post I wanted to preferably see some older footage. I was able to beat vMA not that long ago while wearing no armor (just weapons and jewelery) with 0 CP and without the help of sigils with just 3 deaths that happened only due to a lag so You trying to compare EA to vMA is not the best method to prove anything. It's not hard to made a setup that will clear a content when said content have barely any requirements to clear it.

Last time I checked pure tanks were not doing 100k+ single target DPS on bosses. And for the record to clear arc 4 You dont even need a tanky setup yet. it can be burned through on a slightly adjusted regular DD setup if You know what You're doing. Me personally I switch into more resiliant setup after arc 4 and up until that point I am running in 2 offensive sets+maelstrom flame staff or blackrose dual wield back bar+velothi+1x slimecraw with full offensive CPs and only if I get really bad visions I will use pale order or/and maesltrom ice staff before arc 5. The only defensive adjustment I made was getting 31k HP and slotting abilities with major+minor resolve and sometimes also getting major evasion from quick cloak and minor protection from class ability if class I am running have one. On a sorc I dont even need shields to survive easily, so no EA does not force You to play tanky before arc 4.

Rowjoh wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Rowjoh wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMRA_FZEQTY

The marauders have huge range, huge bleeds, and huge light attack damage. Like if you spawn in a small room, it's so difficult to kite around the way you need to because the amount of damage they dish out is so large. This is honestly the most frustrating enemy in EA. And this is after dropping even more skills for more defense, which honestly in some ways made the fight harder than it was before because the adds didn't die quick enough.

27k HP oakensoul HA magsorc in arc 4? You kinda asked for that outcome.

A solo arena shouldn't require only a particular role before even a regular vet clear. That's not just "wear meta" gear for a role, that's eliminating a role entirely.

Nor was it a typical Oakensoul setup. It had 29k HP without shields, but shield health upped that considerably. And I ran TWO of those (my ult was barrier). I also ran bound armaments which gave me the resolve that didn't come on the ring, upping my damage resistance as well.

I also swapped my helmet for Mighty Chudan.

At that level of damage mitigation, it barely qualifies as a DPS any more.

I did not have a single skill on my bar that did not also have a defensive purpose.

Edit: Here's the full fight, that is a LOT of punishment this build is taking. And it's lost a lot of damage in return.

https://youtu.be/p5WryhCFHOI?si=JAzuSNXvruMt-YNc

Why? Is there some unwritten rule what arenas should and shouldn't require? Also as I said it to You multiple times You should stop treating EA like other arenas, it's not the same type of content. And it doesn't require a specific role but rather to be a decent mix of all roles.

It kinda was a typical oakensoul setup. Switching 1-2 abilities and 1 gear piece can be hardly called a meaningull change.

That level of dmg mitigation still qualifies as DD. Damage dealers in dungeons, arenas and trials can reach better defensive stats than You had and does it mean they are no longer qualified as dmg dealers? Funnily enough when properly prepared You can get more DPS in EA than top trial DDs while having higher stats than PvE tanks. It's just a matter of knowing what to do and how to do it instead of being stubborn and forcefully trying to do something the old ways and being sad it doesn't work. Don't expect for every future content in the game to cater to Your desires just because You don't want to adapt.

You did not have a single purely offensive skill on Your bar because You decided to limit Yourself with a poor setup choices when going into a content with increasingly high difficulty level which obviously at some point will require more than what You brought. It's like walking with a broomstick into a swordfight. You will be doing well until enemies of Yours wont unsheath their weapons. It's time to realize that oakesnoul HA setup in EA have its limits.

If content doesn't fit ESO's predilection for making most content easy to suit the greater casual gamer market, then what do we expect other than the majority of complainants to come from those the game mainly caters for, the second a harder non-casual element is introduced!

Funnily enough EA also fits that predilection to some degree. Arc one is designed specifically to be for a more casual players.

except that as soon as the difficulty begins to ramp up or the casual gamer fraternity happens upon the indignity of not being able to beat an early boss, all hell breaks loose on the forums, as is evident from this, and the other threads.

Well some people in this thread have claimed that devs said EA was designed with average players in mind but for average players to exist there needs to be also those performing under the average. Some people seems to expect that EA is for everyone but it's not. If it would it would literally mean lv 1 naked no CP character should also be able to beat some rounds which is ridicolous to expect.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AlterBlika wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And I shouldn't need to be a tank to at least clear Arc 4, which is supposed to be the equivalent to a regular, non-hardmode vet clear.

You don't need to be. I usually go up to the 5th arc with just sithis + minor aegis + master 2h + rele (really good tanking set). I have zero block mitigation and I do miss it when fighting tho'at, still I manage to get there without dying. Sometimes I don't even get a recovery vision and with this build you usually just dodge everything. I don't have much mitigation with this build but even marauders are manageable for me. So maybe you really need to adjust.

I'm definitely willing to try Sithis over Oakensoul, as that's another alternative way to build tankier without changing your entire role.

I'm willing to try minor adjustments, but I'm not going to call content balanced if you can't be a DPS at all. That's obviously ridiculous.

Edit

FYI as you can see, I can straight up eat mechs from arc 4 bosses. I don't even need to dodge them. I also survived a glass ceiling block in this build from tho'at in arc 3. I mean it's safer if I block them obviously, but I messed up in this fight but was able to recover because this build can take a lot of punishment.

https://youtu.be/ka-hiG7QApA?si=SNEmS7huE4V-0LNY

You don't even have upgrade to the amount of visions and You expect to clear EA effectively? These upgrades are essential to do well in EA since it give You better variety of visions to choose from which means higher chance of getting the strong ones.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

You kinda proved my point with these videos. None of the videos You have shown is a pure tank

You made the claim a tank couldn't make the same sort of adjustments that I made and clear vma. And I proved not only could they do so, but some of them even got flawless conqueror.

So, no. I did not. I proved MY point. ALL of those are tanks that made adjustments to builds for their roles. MY build made adjustments but still stayed within the same role. I am NOT on a pure DPS build. And at this point, if you're going to continue to make false claims about my builds and arguments, I don't see much point in engaging further. Good day.

No? I didn't make that claim. Did You even read what I said. I specifically stated that in vMA tanks or healers need to adjust their setups because pure tanks or healer role will have hard time clearing vMA. I asked You to show me atleast one video that would prove otherwise, where pure tank or healer setup cleared vMA since You were advocating that every role can do it. You not only did not provide video like that but You provided videos proving my point that pure tanks need to make significant adjustments to clear vMA same as You will have to clear EA.

They did not stayed in their roles. They've made changes to gear, skills, atributes, CPs and rotations. They are no longer tanks but brawler DDs. If it would be a PvP their setups would be just called DD setup or brawler setup but not a tank setup. Fact that they named their setups a tank ones doesn't mean they are true tanks.

Some minor tweaks You did are not even close to what they did and definietly won't be enough to venture further into EA, it's finally time to accept that. I won't even go over the fact that I asked You for preferably older videos where vMA had some difficulty level not some new ones from times when vMA can be cleared naked with no CP. EA is a new content with completly new ruleset and You expect it to be like completly outdated piece of content that follows different ruleset.

Stanx wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AlterBlika wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And I shouldn't need to be a tank to at least clear Arc 4, which is supposed to be the equivalent to a regular, non-hardmode vet clear.

You don't need to be. I usually go up to the 5th arc with just sithis + minor aegis + master 2h + rele (really good tanking set). I have zero block mitigation and I do miss it when fighting tho'at, still I manage to get there without dying. Sometimes I don't even get a recovery vision and with this build you usually just dodge everything. I don't have much mitigation with this build but even marauders are manageable for me. So maybe you really need to adjust.

I'm definitely willing to try Sithis over Oakensoul, as that's another alternative way to build tankier without changing your entire role.

I'm willing to try minor adjustments, but I'm not going to call content balanced if you can't be a DPS at all. That's obviously ridiculous.

Edit

FYI as you can see, I can straight up eat mechs from arc 4 bosses. I don't even need to dodge them. I also survived a glass ceiling block in this build from tho'at in arc 3. I mean it's safer if I block them obviously, but I messed up in this fight but was able to recover because this build can take a lot of punishment.

https://youtu.be/ka-hiG7QApA?si=SNEmS7huE4V-0LNY

You don't even have upgrade to the amount of visions and You expect to clear EA effectively? These upgrades are essential to do well in EA since it give You better variety of visions to choose from which means higher chance of getting the strong ones.

I'd say stage 3 boss of arc 4 is clearing EA pretty effectively in my book. Very impressed @spartaxoxo has got that far without needing the additional verse.

I never said otherwise. What I am saying is that to clear later bosses or even marauders in that arc (which person I responded to expects to do) having that additional vision choice is a big improvement.

As for clearing it pretty effectively I dont know if I would't go that far. He clears it in acceptable level but 2 minutes fight on arc 4 stage 3 with a boss that doesn't have some "fly away" phases and in a setup that is not on a ultra tanky side is a bad omen for later arcs.