Please fix Endless Archive difficulty

Braffin

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

@Braffin PC/NA but thanks for the offer. In all honesty I just want my companion to tank that can taunt and survive. Most of the problems, but not all, stem from the fact that my tanks dies and I end up running around like a panicky chicken and then die myself. I am sure if he would live long enough on some of the bosses I might actually get to observe the mechanics, but 68 bosses is still a daunting task for me.

Ask for buffed companions instead of nerfed content and you won't hear a single word of opposition from me.

I think it's a reasonable request to expect them to be actually useable in content. As far as I know, they aren't atm (I don't know for sure tho, as I don't use them.).

spartaxoxo

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

You don't have to have experienced something personally to have an opinion it. If you have read enough testimony to understand to form an opinion, then that's fine.

Like I don't PvP hardly ever, but I have heard enough people over the years say that they performance in Cyrodiil fixed, more meaningful PvP content, etc. So, I hope PvPers gets those things.

Sure, but it's an uneducated opinion then.

And it definitely doesn't turn a minority into a majority.

If you want to convince me, there has to come something better. Preferably facts.

No, it's not. There's more ways to learn than first hand experience. It doesn't turn a minority into a majority, but it does give a good hint as to what is the majority opinion expressed online.

Of course there are several ways of learning.

All of them have one in common: reasoning and knowledge.

Simply pretending something and repeating it like a parrot has nothing to do with learning tho. This practice is called framing nowadays and already was frowned up in times of Aristotle.

It is not pretending if the person explicitly states "I haven't been there, but based on witness testimony, I believe xyz." Nor is it simple repetition to draw opinions from random witness testimony. Witness testimony is a solid form of evidence, and can be interacted with using reasoning. It's not as good as statistics, but players don't have access to those. They do have access to witness testimony.

Braffin

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

You don't have to have experienced something personally to have an opinion it. If you have read enough testimony to understand to form an opinion, then that's fine.

Like I don't PvP hardly ever, but I have heard enough people over the years say that they performance in Cyrodiil fixed, more meaningful PvP content, etc. So, I hope PvPers gets those things.

Sure, but it's an uneducated opinion then.

And it definitely doesn't turn a minority into a majority.

If you want to convince me, there has to come something better. Preferably facts.

No, it's not. There's more ways to learn than first hand experience. It doesn't turn a minority into a majority, but it does give a good hint as to what is the majority opinion expressed online.

Of course there are several ways of learning.

All of them have one in common: reasoning and knowledge.

Simply pretending something and repeating it like a parrot has nothing to do with learning tho. This practice is called framing nowadays and already was frowned up in times of Aristotle.

It is not pretending if the person explicitly states "I haven't been there, but based on witness testimony, I believe xyz"

That's not what the person in question said.

EdjeSwift

Braffin wrote: »

Ask for buffed companions instead of nerfed content and you won't hear a single word of opposition from me.

I think it's a reasonable request to expect them to be actually useable in content. As far as I know, they aren't atm (I don't know for sure tho, as I don't use them.).

They're usable-ish, but absolutely not as a tank or anything that requires melee range. I've had Mirri healer survive Tho'at 2 before because they get out of AoE cause they're ranged and don't run back in. Plus, if I REALLY cared, I'd use the "pet" command to pull them back and out of AoE.

That said, they're not a replacement for another player, but a supplement to your character.

Toxic_Hemlock

Braffin wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

@Braffin PC/NA but thanks for the offer. In all honesty I just want my companion to tank that can taunt and survive. Most of the problems, but not all, stem from the fact that my tanks dies and I end up running around like a panicky chicken and then die myself. I am sure if he would live long enough on some of the bosses I might actually get to observe the mechanics, but 68 bosses is still a daunting task for me.

Ask for buffed companions instead of nerfed content and you won't hear a single word of opposition from me.

I think it's a reasonable request to expect them to be actually useable in content. As far as I know, they aren't atm (I don't know for sure tho, as I don't use them.).

I asked for that too. I have learned from the PTS asking for anything from ZOS usually just get ignored, so I figured If I doubled up on requests, I might see something actually done.

spartaxoxo

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

You don't have to have experienced something personally to have an opinion it. If you have read enough testimony to understand to form an opinion, then that's fine.

Like I don't PvP hardly ever, but I have heard enough people over the years say that they performance in Cyrodiil fixed, more meaningful PvP content, etc. So, I hope PvPers gets those things.

Sure, but it's an uneducated opinion then.

And it definitely doesn't turn a minority into a majority.

If you want to convince me, there has to come something better. Preferably facts.

No, it's not. There's more ways to learn than first hand experience. It doesn't turn a minority into a majority, but it does give a good hint as to what is the majority opinion expressed online.

Of course there are several ways of learning.

All of them have one in common: reasoning and knowledge.

Simply pretending something and repeating it like a parrot has nothing to do with learning tho. This practice is called framing nowadays and already was frowned up in times of Aristotle.

It is not pretending if the person explicitly states "I haven't been there, but based on witness testimony, I believe xyz"

That's not what the person in question said.

If they have let it be known that they can't get to later arcs because they are having so much trouble with arc 1, then it is pretty obvious that the "we" being discussed is themself, and the other players in the thread who did experience the other arcs.

If it is obvious and self-evident, it shouldn't need to be explicitly stated.

Braffin

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

You don't have to have experienced something personally to have an opinion it. If you have read enough testimony to understand to form an opinion, then that's fine.

Like I don't PvP hardly ever, but I have heard enough people over the years say that they performance in Cyrodiil fixed, more meaningful PvP content, etc. So, I hope PvPers gets those things.

Sure, but it's an uneducated opinion then.

And it definitely doesn't turn a minority into a majority.

If you want to convince me, there has to come something better. Preferably facts.

No, it's not. There's more ways to learn than first hand experience. It doesn't turn a minority into a majority, but it does give a good hint as to what is the majority opinion expressed online.

Of course there are several ways of learning.

All of them have one in common: reasoning and knowledge.

Simply pretending something and repeating it like a parrot has nothing to do with learning tho. This practice is called framing nowadays and already was frowned up in times of Aristotle.

It is not pretending if the person explicitly states "I haven't been there, but based on witness testimony, I believe xyz"

That's not what the person in question said.

If they have let it be known that they can't get to later arcs because they are having so much trouble with arc 1, then it is pretty obvious that the "we" being discussed is themself, and the other players in the thread who did experience the other arcs.

If it is obvious and self-evident, it shouldn't need to be explicitly stated.

It's not about the "we", it's about the "average playerbase" in opposition to the "elitists" gatekeeping Arc 1.

I'm quite sure this "average playerbase" isn't composed of 4 people.

LouisaB75

Elsonso wrote: »

LouisaB75 wrote: »

Nothing to stop you googling the boss before you fight him either. I usually try once before looking up, but if it is my last thread I look up first unless I forget.

Should ZOS be designing games where players need to refer to internet resources to be successful?

While I agree with you that does unfortunately appear to be the case.

Googling bosses mechanics, builds, etc is something I find myself doing regularly to progress and not just in EA.

grewkshd

Buffing the borrowed power is what I would prefer to see in Solo.

-Visions are either doubled in strength, or you pick two visions, when playing Solo.
-Verses should stack in between acquiring visions.
-Extra threads should be verses not visions.

Separate leaderboard for Duo with Companion.
Significant buffs to companions, or, even better, a system within Endless Archive that allows you to improve your companions strength. An 'Ascendancy system' where you can specifically make them stronger as either a Tank/Healer/DPS.


I'd love to see a major rework, to help with balancing, where we take no character power into the archive. It would solve so many balancing issues, but I doubt it will ever happen. All power in EA should be borrowed.

Araneae6537

EdjeSwift wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Ask for buffed companions instead of nerfed content and you won't hear a single word of opposition from me.

I think it's a reasonable request to expect them to be actually useable in content. As far as I know, they aren't atm (I don't know for sure tho, as I don't use them.).

They're usable-ish, but absolutely not as a tank or anything that requires melee range. I've had Mirri healer survive Tho'at 2 before because they get out of AoE cause they're ranged and don't run back in. Plus, if I REALLY cared, I'd use the "pet" command to pull them back and out of AoE.

That said, they're not a replacement for another player, but a supplement to your character.

I think that companions should receive buffs as you progress — not exactly the same as the visions the player receives but something. As it is, a companion can help Arc 1 pass faster and smoother but Arc 2 I have to spam the twilight a lot and then beyond that, forget it. A companion also receiving buffs or otherwise getting stronger as the arcs progress still wouldn’t compete with a competent player, but would keep them a useful ally in combat.

AzuraFan

Endless Archive experience number 4 (or maybe 5):

Okay, so I ventured into the EA this morning to do the daily endeavor. I figured if I didn't run into a bad boss, I could do the three stages. I ended up doing more than that, and I was doing okay until I ran into a boss called The Serpent.

I figured out the "run into a coloured thing when they appear if you want to live" mechanic after I'd lost one thread, so that was fairly quick. But he was doing something else that I couldn't figure out that would quickly drain me of life.

Anyway, with one thread left, I got him down to about 400k and then he did the thing I haven't figured out. Also, I had Sharp with me, because I wasn't planning on a serious run. He's not max level yet, and he died fairly quickly. If I was to run into this boss again, I'd switch to Isobel, probably (tank).

Because I almost got the guy down, I figure if I'd had infinite lives, I might have actually figured out the mechanics. But because I only have three, I didn't have enough time and who knows when I'll run into him again.

Until I can reliably practice on the bosses I'm unfamiliar with (without having to run a dungeon or trial), I'll only ever do the EA when there's an easy endeavor.

And...do something about the rewards! They're crap. They certainly don't incentivize me to want to do this content.

I've noticed that the good stuff (leads, etc.) tend to be in the side puzzle areas. So I tend to get crap rewards for doing the main EA content, and decent rewards for doing side areas, which makes no sense to me. I'd expect a mix.

So far, I've only made it to Tho'at once. Every other run, I've run into a boss I'm completely unfamiliar with. It would be nice if only overland bosses were in Arc 1. As others have suggested, rather than drawing from the entire pool of bosses in the first 2-3 arcs, be more intelligent about it. I would expect that the difficulty progression would apply to the bosses too, but it doesn't seem to at all.

Joy_Division

spartaxoxo wrote: »

You don't have to have experienced something personally to have an opinion it. If you have read enough testimony to understand to form an opinion, then that's fine.

Like I don't PvP hardly ever, but I have heard enough people over the years say that they performance in Cyrodiil fixed, more meaningful PvP content, etc. So, I hope PvPers gets those things.

There's a HUGE differnce between hoping PVPers get unspecified things becuase of vague complaints and actually making suggestions as to how PvP ought eo be balanced based on hearsay or what one has heard.

Even after beating Tho,at three times I was still unaware of the fight's most important mechanic ( green blob adds, didn't know they did crazy damage). Any suggestion I would have made, even based on experience, would not have been helpful

Galeriano

SilverBride wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I agree that Tho'at should be more difficult than the other bosses in the Arc, but not multiple times as difficult. I just hope they look at the numbers as well as reading our feedback and see how many are failing to get past Arc 1 Tho'at and adjust accordingly.

Or maybe it is people who should adjust accordingly? The only difference between tho'at and other bosses in early arcs is just tho'at requires more moving around..

So much moving around in fact that it is difficult to stop long enough to do damage to them.

If You have so much trouble something is wrong on Your side. It's either huge lack of experience or completly unprepared setup.

It is neither.

There is a reason many people clear it very easily [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Galeriano

SilverBride wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

It was about time, that zos stopped that gamebreaking nonsense.

What is game breaking is raising the bar too high for the average player to get past even one Arc.

I think You are mixing terms "for everyone" and "for the average player". For average player to exist there needs to be also players that are under the average who will need to improve to get past arc 1.

Nilandia

AzuraFan wrote: »

I figured out the "run into a coloured thing when they appear if you want to live" mechanic after I'd lost one thread, so that was fairly quick. But he was doing something else that I couldn't figure out that would quickly drain me of life.

Nicely done on figuring out the bubble mechanic!

It sounds like you may have also been running into the poison phase for that boss. Essentially he ports to the center of the area, plunges his sword into the ground, and your screen turns green-ish while your health drains. That's a pure heal check that you need to endure.

SilverBride

AzuraFan wrote: »

As others have suggested, rather than drawing from the entire pool of bosses in the first 2-3 arcs, be more intelligent about it. I would expect that the difficulty progression would apply to the bosses too, but it doesn't seem to at all.

This is what I was expecting with a feature that increases in difficulty as we progress through it.

I would also expect Tho'at to increase in difficulty with each Arc but not receive every mechanic they will ever use all in the first 4 Arcs. These should be added a little at a time as the player progresses but they are all introduced in what are supposed to be the easiest levels.

colossalvoids

This thread is a great reminder about enjoying something while it's hot, definitely should get some time and run it enough times before fun gets "adjusted" to accommodate for each and everyone instead of ones who asked for it or enjoyed it as designed.

Ph1p

I think the main issue is not the speed of progression. Each Arc adds maybe 2 new Tho’at mechanics, which is not an overwhelming amount. The key problem is a lack of opportunity to properly practice.

So instead of slowing down progression, I would rather add a training room where you can select and fight against all bosses and Tho’at versions you have already encountered. You don’t get any rewards, but also don’t have play lots of add stages again and rely on RNG to learn specific mechanics.

Everyone can benefit from this and nobody’s experience is made worse compared to the status quo.

AzuraFan

Nilandia wrote: »

It sounds like you may have also been running into the poison phase for that boss. Essentially he ports to the center of the area, plunges his sword into the ground, and your screen turns green-ish while your health drains. That's a pure heal check that you need to endure.

Ah, thank you. I'll know for next time.

MidniteOwl1913

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I was hoping that the Endless Archive would be for everyone, but it's looking more and more like it's just going to be another elitist playground. If the very first Arc starts like this then a lot of players will only be able to get up to Tho'at and not progress any further.

All we are asking is that this boss be tuned down some for the first few Arcs but others argue against this because they want the difficulty from the start and don't want to be bored getting to the content they enjoy. But what about the rest of us?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin Please consider our feedback so more players can enjoy this new feature.

Being able to complete Arc 1 successfully has nothing to do with being an elitist, but everything with using the basic game mechanics the game is trying to teach us since the tutorial:

1) Stay out of red fields.
2) Block when told to do so.
3) Interrupt when told to do so.

That's very well doable for an average player.

Nothing more is needed to succeed against the first iteration of Tho'at. Not even dodging.

I think some people now simply get presented the consequences of ignoring every single mechanic in this game for several years while pulling whole trains of enemies after them.

It was about time, that zos stopped that gamebreaking nonsense. Well done!

I re-entered this topic simply to say, I am very happy that you find it easy, although I do not. I won't speak for other people, and although "basic game mechanics" come easy to some like yourself, it is quite clear by the sheer size of this thread that for some here it does not.

I'll be the first to admit I am not the average player and I miss my queues to block etc., but does that mean I need to be locked out of all future content, because I don't live up to some arbitrary standards that could easily be reduced? If that is truly the case them I fear the pendulum has swung much too far for this below average player to continue with ESO.

I don't do trials as mechanics are not easy for me to remember, and my reflexes don't work as well as they one did, I avoid arenas too for the same reason. As with this activity though, I DON'T care about the rewards I miss out on. I do well in overland, delves, public dungeons and some base game dungeons and even the occasional dlc one, when my companion can survive that is.

In closing, if my ability to have fun completing arc 1 is detrimental to you in any way, I am truly sorry.

On the bright though, you won't have to see me on the forums soon and I hope you continue to enjoy ESO.

I totally agree. The whole thing just makes me sad.

Jaraal

AzuraFan wrote: »

Nilandia wrote: »

It sounds like you may have also been running into the poison phase for that boss. Essentially he ports to the center of the area, plunges his sword into the ground, and your screen turns green-ish while your health drains. That's a pure heal check that you need to endure.

Ah, thank you. I'll know for next time.

Also, the totems empower him and make the damage he does stronger. If you aren't built to burn the boss down quickly, it's a good idea to take away some of his power by destroying the totems as soon as possible.

MidniteOwl1913

AzuraFan wrote: »

Endless Archive experience number 4 (or maybe 5):

Okay, so I ventured into the EA this morning to do the daily endeavor. I figured if I didn't run into a bad boss, I could do the three stages. I ended up doing more than that, and I was doing okay until I ran into a boss called The Serpent.

I figured out the "run into a coloured thing when they appear if you want to live" mechanic after I'd lost one thread, so that was fairly quick. But he was doing something else that I couldn't figure out that would quickly drain me of life.

Anyway, with one thread left, I got him down to about 400k and then he did the thing I haven't figured out. Also, I had Sharp with me, because I wasn't planning on a serious run. He's not max level yet, and he died fairly quickly. If I was to run into this boss again, I'd switch to Isobel, probably (tank).

Because I almost got the guy down, I figure if I'd had infinite lives, I might have actually figured out the mechanics. But because I only have three, I didn't have enough time and who knows when I'll run into him again.

Until I can reliably practice on the bosses I'm unfamiliar with (without having to run a dungeon or trial), I'll only ever do the EA when there's an easy endeavor.

And...do something about the rewards! They're crap. They certainly don't incentivize me to want to do this content.

I've noticed that the good stuff (leads, etc.) tend to be in the side puzzle areas. So I tend to get crap rewards for doing the main EA content, and decent rewards for doing side areas, which makes no sense to me. I'd expect a mix.

So far, I've only made it to Tho'at once. Every other run, I've run into a boss I'm completely unfamiliar with. It would be nice if only overland bosses were in Arc 1. As others have suggested, rather than drawing from the entire pool of bosses in the first 2-3 arcs, be more intelligent about it. I would expect that the difficulty progression would apply to the bosses too, but it doesn't seem to at all.

Yeah, this is what keeps happening to me too. So many bosses so many mechanics. I watched the Xynodes video on the bosses but there are so many of them and I can't remember all of the mechanics. I did manage to finish the snake last night but it took a really long time and I was never comfortable with the fight. The boss that did me in last was Lady Thorn, I forgot about picking up the synergies.

Sarannah

Another idea: Instead of always getting the highest unknown form, it would be fun if the unknown difficulty was random between difficulty 1-5.

Braffin

Sarannah wrote: »

Another idea: Instead of always getting the highest unknown form, it would be fun if the unknown difficulty was random between difficulty 1-5.

Are you talking about the minigames?

If so, I agree in general, but would only randomize them after the corresponding achievement is earned.

This way people don't have to go through double rng while going after the upgrades.

Jaraal

Braffin wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Another idea: Instead of always getting the highest unknown form, it would be fun if the unknown difficulty was random between difficulty 1-5.

Are you talking about the minigames?

If so, I agree in general, but would only randomize them after the corresponding achievement is earned.

This way people don't have to go through double rng while going after the upgrades.

Plus since the achievement and difficulty is set account wide, it removes the ability to progress the games with different classes and characters (specifically the duelist.)

AzuraFan

Jaraal wrote: »

Also, the totems empower him and make the damage he does stronger. If you aren't built to burn the boss down quickly, it's a good idea to take away some of his power by destroying the totems as soon as possible.

Thanks. I did burn down the totems when I saw them (I figured it couldn't hurt), but I appreciate the tip.

Necrotech_Master

at this point i usually prefer running through at least arc 4 for my daily to get more currency lol

i usually go in with another player because its more enjoyable than running it solo (i refer to solo as with or without a companion because they are so negligible having them their doesnt change much)

i really have no problem helping people clear arc 4 (ive helped at least 4 people now get an arc 4 clear lol) which usually takes around 2 hours to get that far

if im really pushing i can usually make it into arc 8-9 with another player there, but those runs are long usually around 5 hours (but due to the currency scaling i can make like 60k currency in the 1 run)

my tips:

• build for survivability (armor cap, with at least 30k+ max hp)
• run weakening enchantments (the ones that do -weapon/spell dmg on the target) as those reduce the incoming dmg
• let the visions/verses do the dmg for you while you stay alive (a little RNG dependent but you can pretty much always go for offense verses and hit 30k+ dps even on a full tank build)

if you go in there with a full dps, running no food buffs and have 18k max hp, then yes the bosses and tho'at are definitely going to be significantly more difficult on arc 1

MidniteOwl1913

Last night I got the achievement for killing all 3 marauders, but I still haven't made it to Tho'at in arc 2. Something just seems out of balance.

Good thing I can kill the marauders BTW at least that way I'm getting some weapons...

Proxithe

-

Vrelanier

I learned the Tho'at fight really fast by going in as tank and standing in the aoe and letting her punch me a lot. It's not as chaotic as it seems, even with multiple baby shards, even in melee.

It's not a "come as you are" kind of instance, unless you're already tanky enough. Switching gear, cp, skills is all part of it. Most instances in ESO require you to change something.

I went from being a one bar wonder stamblade barely making it to Arc 1 Tho'at, to one bar wonder with permanent achievement buffs stamblade making it to 3/1/2, to one bar wonder with permanent achievement buffs magblade tank having a walk in the park until 3/4/2 where I died to being distracted by things around me irl.

It just takes so long to get to where the difficult part starts that I just don't have that kind of time. I'd love to adjust sets and get better, but when the enemies actually become threats, then my threads are gone in a minute. And then to waddle through the first Arcs just to get there again... sigh.

So far my tactic is mainly to bring my partner with me, because then the first hours go by faster. Not because we do higher dps together (which we do, though), but mainly because we talk about random things in voice chat while doing it. Then we also hit a wall, lose the threads, and have to wait a week to have the time to try it again.

For what it's worth, I'm not exactly casual, but I have never finished a trial, don't have trial gear, and I'm having serious trouble in VMA. I don't solo any dungeons, I have trouble soloing world bosses, and dying in public dungeons is still fresh in my memory. I've swapped bars maybe 30 times since 2014, and I only heard about Oakensoul maybe six months ago. Now I don't die in public dungeons anymore.