This will be fun to read.

ArchMikem wrote: »

"Fake" isn't really an appropriate term to give players like that, as every fake Tank and fake Healer are legit DD's who intentionally choose the wrong role for a faster queue.

Whenever a DD is accused of being fake its just because their dps isn't high enough, or they're new and don't know what a rotation is.

Please define real dd first

ArchMikem wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

"Fake" isn't really an appropriate term to give players like that, as every fake Tank and fake Healer are legit DD's who intentionally choose the wrong role for a faster queue.

Whenever a DD is accused of being fake its just because their dps isn't high enough, or they're new and don't know what a rotation is.

Please define real dd first

A player wielding any of the known damage dealing weapons with a Health Pool between 15k and 25k, using DD abilities.

Define dd ability, and are you saying oakensoul sorc is not real dd? Because of the 25k hp.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Tank:
Minimal expectation: taunts
Secondary: absorbs damage, controls adds, buffs/debuffs

Healer:
Minimal expectation: heals team
Secondary: buffs/debuffs, provides resources

DPS:
Minimal expectation: deals significant enough damage to clear DPS checks and damage mechs
Secondary: Rezzes

The secondary tasks aren't really necessary for me to consider someone in the correct role. But, I consider a player a fake if they don't meet those minimal definitions. For me, those are the primary task of the role. The entire reason we are separated into those 3 roles in the first place.

I don't consider a fake to automatically be a fraud either. I understand that some people intentionally refuse to fulfill those needs. But, fake is a word that can simply mean not authentic. While it usually implies deceit, it is not a requirement.

I personally don’t believe union of tank + healer + dd is whole player base. I see these as 3 sets of responsibilities. Not not all roles fulfill any of the 3.

And I believe extra roles that’s neither t h or d

For vet dungeons I'm always a Healer or more recently a tank.

I suck at DD so if somebody else is less than par I have no right to complain.

As for normal dungeons I don't feel it matters much because the difficulty is so easy.

Most of my characters are PvP characters. But I can take them into normal. But the queue is so long for DD that I would rather queue them as a Healer or tank.
My PvP stam warden with polar wind and sword and board back bar can be a good tank in normal.

Fake DD is incredibly rare as damage dealing is generally the most popular role.

For example, if I queue as a damage dealer with only heals slotted while running Mend Wounds so I can't even light or heavy attack to deal damage I would be a Fake DD as I'm really a healer that is pretending to be a Damage dealer.

Fake DD primarily gets tossed around a ton because players have become increasingly used to getting carried through content by people doing so much damage that the mechanics don't even properly fire that they become frustrated when they actually have to put some effort in to do the content.

Personally, I think ZOS should continue to work on reducing the damage at the top coupled with scaling the rewards to reflect the actual experience.

Increase the rewards for group finder the smaller the number of people you queue with.

Increase the rewards for when players in the group are inexperienced or haven't done the quest.

Increase the rewards when more of the dungeon is completed than the absolute minimum.

Increase the rewards based on how long the dungeon is compared to other dungeons.

Increase the rewards based on how long the time in the dungeon took compared to the average.

LOL, I have been summoned.

I started off as a main tank for normal and vet dungeons. So I'm pretty familiar with how smoothly normal dungeons should go when the person who queued as tank is using a taunt vs when a fake tank is refusing to taunt and the boss is off attacking whoever it wants.

My opposition to fake tanks without a taunt really started when I started leveling my DD and Healer characters through random normal dungeons. My leveling Warden and Templar healer both ended up face tanking the boss more often than not. And when I'd try to play my DD, well, it was kind of hard to enjoy doing my DPS rotation when the boss was either in my face or constantly running out of ground-based AOEs.

I like to tank...but what eventually happened was I started to hate playing anything but a tank because I was inevitably expected to facetank anyway but with a build that wasn't designed for it. Maybe it'd be better in Veteran Dungeons, but that experience in normals kind of killed my desire to be a healer or a DD.

Nowadays, if I'm playing with friends, I'll bring my main DK tank Varanis Arano. She's got the resistances, chains, CCs, grouping, buffs and debuffs, all the bells and whistles that a good tank can bring to enhance a competent group.

But if I'm playing in random normal dungeons, I'll play one of those DDs-with-a-taunt in normal dungeons. My MagSorc DD/Tank can handily tank all of the normal dungeons I own while still dealing enough DPS to speed up the run AND can heal the party when I get a fake healer.

..............................................

All I really ask in a normal dungeon is that if you queue up as tank, you taunt the boss and don't die.

If you're a normal healer, heal the group and keep yourself alive. "Physician, heal thyself" and all that.

If you're a DD, you should be able to do an appropriate amount of DPS for the content you queued up for. That's pretty minimal for most non-DLC normal dungeons, though I strongly suggest making an appointment with a training dummy to learn your DPS before you start running veteran dungeons so you can gauge your performance on the DPS checks.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Tank:
Minimal expectation: taunts
Secondary: absorbs damage, controls adds, buffs/debuffs

Healer:
Minimal expectation: heals team
Secondary: buffs/debuffs, provides resources

DPS:
Minimal expectation: deals significant enough damage to clear DPS checks and damage mechs
Secondary: Rezzes

The secondary tasks aren't really necessary for me to consider someone in the correct role. But, I consider a player a fake if they don't meet those minimal definitions. For me, those are the primary task of the role. The entire reason we are separated into those 3 roles in the first place.

I don't consider a fake to automatically be a fraud either. I understand that some people intentionally refuse to fulfill those needs. But, fake is a word that can simply mean not authentic. While it usually implies deceit, it is not a requirement.

I agree with this for the most part, but I think it's also important for the support roles healer/tank to stay with the party. Even a fully spec'ed healer/tank that's always 2 screens ahead isn't doing the party much good.

To me, the indication of "role" is entirely based on intent; the actions being taken. To be a "fake" role, the player must have indicated themselves as one role, yet they are performing actions that either 1) overwhelmingly belong to another role, or 2) are obviously showing no engagement with actually playing the game.

If the player has selected the role of DD, however their damage is noticeably low, I look at the actions of the player first. If the DD is simply performing Full Charged HA with, lets say a 2H, and no Skills are being used, they are a "fake" DD. If they are performing actions and Skills, but the damage is still painfully low, then they are just bad DD, not "fake".

The distinction between bad and "fake" is important because it tells me know how I should treat the player. Bad players get suggestions and assistance. "Fake" players get a comment in chat about it and a vote kick.

Love the idea of a more structured debate for this!

My opinion is you can't be a fake DD if you have any skills/weapons capable of causing damage. At the most basic level, a fake healer would be someone with no heals slotted and a tank someone with no taunt, so not able to do the minimum required for those roles.

If I loaded into a dungeon and the person in the tank role had a S&B (or ice staff but thats not so obvious straight away) and a taunt it would be enough to say they're a real tank. They might die in seconds, not pull adds, lose taunt or whatever else, but that would just make them a bad tank, not fake. If the same role is filled with say a pet sorc with an Inferno staff and no tank skills, then they're fake.

To be a fake DD you'd have to deal no damage at all. Being bad at the role and loading into content you know you can't do expecting a carry is definitely an issue (and selfish imo) but I don't think it's the same as being fake.

Basically, if you have the tools in your toolbox to do the job you're not fake. If someone else would be able to use those tools to do a better job you're just bad.

Aislinna wrote: »

I do not think you can have "fake" damage dealers, as everybody can deal damage.

Some characters may not have good gear sets or a decent rotation or know mechanics, or may only hold heavy attack or just light attack or could just be a new player, but they are dealing damage, just not enough for your liking. Call them bad if you must, but they are not "fake" as they are not pretending.

I think we all here can/should agree that there's a difference between a fake -- someone who isn't even trying -- and a new player who doesn't have gear sets yet, is still learning the ropes and so on.

Every one of us has been through a phase where we had whatever mess of gear we found randomly and had no idea what we were doing, so nobody should be criticizing anyone about that. In fact, we should be actively reaching out to help those players.

But when somebody is visibly putting in zero effort into their role or into getting better, when someone is actively holding the group back, then that person is a fake.

If this community put half as much effort into finding a guild and putting a team together as they did to complaining about fake roles, they'd have much more fun playing the game.

Soarora wrote: »

Why are bad healers and bad tanks called bad healers and bad tanks, but bad DPS are called fake? Why don't we just call them bad DPS?

A lot of people intentionally choose not to build to do good dps. They don't care about doing good damage. They don't fill their bars with dps skills. They don't bother figuring out a decent build with damage gear. Beyond that, each fake is being judged by their ability to fill the role they signed up for.

edit:

I'm not saying it's a big deal if someone doesn't care about doing good damage. There's a lot of content in this game that can be completed as such. On normal mode, it doesn't matter all that much. In vet mode, it can break the dungeon just as much as other roles that aren't built for.