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[COMPLETE] PlayStation®: EU megaserver for maintenance – November 19, 23:00 UTC (6:00PM EST) - November 20, 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
Fake dd definition and classification debate
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Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).
People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.
I doubt there is anyone who is only doing one dps in dungeons. They would have to just stand there doing nothing most of the time in which case they are probably a troll. Trolls in the GF are not what this thread is about.
In other words, thx for verifying the accuracy of my comment that a low dps damage dealer is still a damage dealer.
Have you read the comments from others on the negative side? Clearly “1 dps make it real” is what they are pushing
I see no need to read every single comment made. However, if they do 1 DPS they are still dealing damage which makes them a damage dealer by definition. In reality, someone doing that little damage is a troll as it takes a lot of work to keep damage that low.
Most of the comments trying to define fake DPS are nothing more than describing what someone thinks is pitiful DPS but it is far from fake. They are just not very good, far from it. People who want to avoid such poor performers need to pre-form their group. The experiences I have had running with my guild are far superior to the best experience I had when I used to use the GF to get groups.
“Doing 1 dps make them real dd” is your definition of roles, this is not accepted by us on the affirmative side. This is the exact topic we are debating.
And our main counter to your definition is: such definition is fundamentally discriminatory against tanks, it is requiring tank to do what dd does, and more.
And we desire equality.
I see no reason to discuss a theoretical that will never happen unless the player is a troll and such a discussion will solve nothing.
Normalizing having expectations for people in dd role, normalizing kicking people who don’t contribute enough, treating people in different roles equally, there is plenty to gain for us on the affirmative side.
What does this have to do with the arbitrary 1 DPS that does not exist?
As for this thread normalizing any expectations? It will not. It is for each group to decide for themselves what they will accept or not accept in any aspect of the group. This thread will not have an effect as most will have never even read this thread.
I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. I solved this issue long ago.
0 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Support mainForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).
People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.
I doubt there is anyone who is only doing one dps in dungeons. They would have to just stand there doing nothing most of the time in which case they are probably a troll. Trolls in the GF are not what this thread is about.
In other words, thx for verifying the accuracy of my comment that a low dps damage dealer is still a damage dealer.
Have you read the comments from others on the negative side? Clearly “1 dps make it real” is what they are pushing
I see no need to read every single comment made. However, if they do 1 DPS they are still dealing damage which makes them a damage dealer by definition. In reality, someone doing that little damage is a troll as it takes a lot of work to keep damage that low.
Most of the comments trying to define fake DPS are nothing more than describing what someone thinks is pitiful DPS but it is far from fake. They are just not very good, far from it. People who want to avoid such poor performers need to pre-form their group. The experiences I have had running with my guild are far superior to the best experience I had when I used to use the GF to get groups.
“Doing 1 dps make them real dd” is your definition of roles, this is not accepted by us on the affirmative side. This is the exact topic we are debating.
And our main counter to your definition is: such definition is fundamentally discriminatory against tanks, it is requiring tank to do what dd does, and more.
And we desire equality.
I see no reason to discuss a theoretical that will never happen unless the player is a troll and such a discussion will solve nothing.
Normalizing having expectations for people in dd role, normalizing kicking people who don’t contribute enough, treating people in different roles equally, there is plenty to gain for us on the affirmative side.
What does this have to do with the arbitrary 1 DPS that does not exist?
As for this thread normalizing any expectations? It will not. It is for each group to decide for themselves what they will accept or not accept in any aspect of the group. This thread will not have an effect as most will have never even read this thread.
I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. I solved this issue long ago.
Every grass roots social movements starts like this.
Sure most will not read this, but the words will spread. Since you can’t refute that your (and people like you) differential treatment of tank and dd is discriminatory, we will keep speaking up to fight against this injustice.
If you wish to silence us, prove us wrong or give us equality.1 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).
People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.
I doubt there is anyone who is only doing one dps in dungeons. They would have to just stand there doing nothing most of the time in which case they are probably a troll. Trolls in the GF are not what this thread is about.
In other words, thx for verifying the accuracy of my comment that a low dps damage dealer is still a damage dealer.
Have you read the comments from others on the negative side? Clearly “1 dps make it real” is what they are pushing
I see no need to read every single comment made. However, if they do 1 DPS they are still dealing damage which makes them a damage dealer by definition. In reality, someone doing that little damage is a troll as it takes a lot of work to keep damage that low.
Most of the comments trying to define fake DPS are nothing more than describing what someone thinks is pitiful DPS but it is far from fake. They are just not very good, far from it. People who want to avoid such poor performers need to pre-form their group. The experiences I have had running with my guild are far superior to the best experience I had when I used to use the GF to get groups.
“Doing 1 dps make them real dd” is your definition of roles, this is not accepted by us on the affirmative side. This is the exact topic we are debating.
And our main counter to your definition is: such definition is fundamentally discriminatory against tanks, it is requiring tank to do what dd does, and more.
And we desire equality.
I see no reason to discuss a theoretical that will never happen unless the player is a troll and such a discussion will solve nothing.
Normalizing having expectations for people in dd role, normalizing kicking people who don’t contribute enough, treating people in different roles equally, there is plenty to gain for us on the affirmative side.
What does this have to do with the arbitrary 1 DPS that does not exist?
As for this thread normalizing any expectations? It will not. It is for each group to decide for themselves what they will accept or not accept in any aspect of the group. This thread will not have an effect as most will have never even read this thread.
I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. I solved this issue long ago.
Every grass roots social movements starts like this.
Sure most will not read this, but the words will spread. Since you can’t refute that your (and people like you) differential treatment of tank and dd is discriminatory, we will keep speaking up to fight against this injustice.
If you wish to silence us, prove us wrong or give us equality.
Again, what does this have to do with your argument that 1 DPS is the benchmark?
As I said, I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. Myself and players like me took control and solved this issue long ago. That is what it takes and it is not in this thread.
Anyone who is actually serious about dealing with fake tanks, healers, and low DPS should do the same and take control of their game and dungeon experience. Otherwise, they will have to deal with what comes their way. That's a fact jack.
1 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Support mainForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).
People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.
I doubt there is anyone who is only doing one dps in dungeons. They would have to just stand there doing nothing most of the time in which case they are probably a troll. Trolls in the GF are not what this thread is about.
In other words, thx for verifying the accuracy of my comment that a low dps damage dealer is still a damage dealer.
Have you read the comments from others on the negative side? Clearly “1 dps make it real” is what they are pushing
I see no need to read every single comment made. However, if they do 1 DPS they are still dealing damage which makes them a damage dealer by definition. In reality, someone doing that little damage is a troll as it takes a lot of work to keep damage that low.
Most of the comments trying to define fake DPS are nothing more than describing what someone thinks is pitiful DPS but it is far from fake. They are just not very good, far from it. People who want to avoid such poor performers need to pre-form their group. The experiences I have had running with my guild are far superior to the best experience I had when I used to use the GF to get groups.
“Doing 1 dps make them real dd” is your definition of roles, this is not accepted by us on the affirmative side. This is the exact topic we are debating.
And our main counter to your definition is: such definition is fundamentally discriminatory against tanks, it is requiring tank to do what dd does, and more.
And we desire equality.
I see no reason to discuss a theoretical that will never happen unless the player is a troll and such a discussion will solve nothing.
Normalizing having expectations for people in dd role, normalizing kicking people who don’t contribute enough, treating people in different roles equally, there is plenty to gain for us on the affirmative side.
What does this have to do with the arbitrary 1 DPS that does not exist?
As for this thread normalizing any expectations? It will not. It is for each group to decide for themselves what they will accept or not accept in any aspect of the group. This thread will not have an effect as most will have never even read this thread.
I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. I solved this issue long ago.
Every grass roots social movements starts like this.
Sure most will not read this, but the words will spread. Since you can’t refute that your (and people like you) differential treatment of tank and dd is discriminatory, we will keep speaking up to fight against this injustice.
If you wish to silence us, prove us wrong or give us equality.
Again, what does this have to do with your argument that 1 DPS is the benchmark?
As I said, I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. Myself and players like me took control and solved this issue long ago. That is what it takes and it is not in this thread.
Anyone who is actually serious about dealing with fake tanks, healers, and low DPS should do the same and take control of their game and dungeon experience. Otherwise, they will have to deal with what comes their way. That's a fact jack.
Running away from discrimination vs fighting against discrimination.
2 -
preevious✭✭✭✭✭
✭DD mainI was away a few days, and I see just now that I was summoned.
I actually revised my position on fake DDs.
In the end, I think they actually do exists .. but they are rare and it's not really as you'd think they would.
Cheating is, in my opinion, primarily about intent. Intent to game the system
A DD queuing as anything other is cheating, with the intended benefit of having a shorter queue. The intent in very clear, there, and it's easy to label them as "fake smth".
As for the DD woefully inadequates for the content they queue for (IE : very low DD in veteran), it's a bit complicated, and they come in 2 flavours that are really not easy to differenciate ..- The bad DD : he never learnt, or no one did explain him what was expected of him. He does not see what's wrong in his playstile. He slaps some damage set, cast damage skills, and earnestly think they deal adequate damage.. That one is NOT a fake DD. He is NOT a cheater, and when I encounter one, I ask him, as nicely as possible, if he needs a bit of help. (though in some case, they take exception to that, and I get insulted)
- The freeloader DD : he knows full well he's bad. Maybe he don't wanna improve, maybe he rolled a new char ... he queues in the right queue, but with the intention to be carried. Here, he games the system by queuing out of his league, with the intended benefit of getting clears he is not able to get otherwise. That one is a fake DD.
It's all about intentions. As long as you purposely annoy your fellow players, you are a "fake smth".
The problem is, it's nigh impossible to tell the two apart, so, I understand the frustration of real tanks and heals.
However, I said it before. In veteran, the majority of DD are good.3 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Support mainI was away a few days, and I see just now that I was summoned.
I actually revised my position on fake DDs.
In the end, I think they actually do exists .. but they are rare and it's not really as you'd think they would.
Cheating is, in my opinion, primarily about intent. Intent to game the system
A DD queuing as anything other is cheating, with the intended benefit of having a shorter queue. The intent in very clear, there, and it's easy to label them as "fake smth".
As for the DD woefully inadequates for the content they queue for (IE : very low DD in veteran), it's a bit complicated, and they come in 2 flavours that are really not easy to differenciate ..- The bad DD : he never learnt, or no one did explain him what was expected of him. He does not see what's wrong in his playstile. He slaps some damage set, cast damage skills, and earnestly think they deal adequate damage.. That one is NOT a fake DD. He is NOT a cheater, and when I encounter one, I ask him, as nicely as possible, if he needs a bit of help. (though in some case, they take exception to that, and I get insulted)
- The freeloader DD : he knows full well he's bad. Maybe he don't wanna improve, maybe he rolled a new char ... he queues in the right queue, but with the intention to be carried. Here, he games the system by queuing out of his league, with the intended benefit of getting clears he is not able to get otherwise. That one is a fake DD.
It's all about intentions. As long as you purposely annoy your fellow players, you are a "fake smth".
The problem is, it's nigh impossible to tell the two apart, so, I understand the frustration of real tanks and heals.
However, I said it before. In veteran, the majority of DD are good.
Oh you indeed changed. I agree with your new stance.1 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).
People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.
I doubt there is anyone who is only doing one dps in dungeons. They would have to just stand there doing nothing most of the time in which case they are probably a troll. Trolls in the GF are not what this thread is about.
In other words, thx for verifying the accuracy of my comment that a low dps damage dealer is still a damage dealer.
Have you read the comments from others on the negative side? Clearly “1 dps make it real” is what they are pushing
I see no need to read every single comment made. However, if they do 1 DPS they are still dealing damage which makes them a damage dealer by definition. In reality, someone doing that little damage is a troll as it takes a lot of work to keep damage that low.
Most of the comments trying to define fake DPS are nothing more than describing what someone thinks is pitiful DPS but it is far from fake. They are just not very good, far from it. People who want to avoid such poor performers need to pre-form their group. The experiences I have had running with my guild are far superior to the best experience I had when I used to use the GF to get groups.
“Doing 1 dps make them real dd” is your definition of roles, this is not accepted by us on the affirmative side. This is the exact topic we are debating.
And our main counter to your definition is: such definition is fundamentally discriminatory against tanks, it is requiring tank to do what dd does, and more.
And we desire equality.
I see no reason to discuss a theoretical that will never happen unless the player is a troll and such a discussion will solve nothing.
Normalizing having expectations for people in dd role, normalizing kicking people who don’t contribute enough, treating people in different roles equally, there is plenty to gain for us on the affirmative side.
What does this have to do with the arbitrary 1 DPS that does not exist?
As for this thread normalizing any expectations? It will not. It is for each group to decide for themselves what they will accept or not accept in any aspect of the group. This thread will not have an effect as most will have never even read this thread.
I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. I solved this issue long ago.
Every grass roots social movements starts like this.
Sure most will not read this, but the words will spread. Since you can’t refute that your (and people like you) differential treatment of tank and dd is discriminatory, we will keep speaking up to fight against this injustice.
If you wish to silence us, prove us wrong or give us equality.
Again, what does this have to do with your argument that 1 DPS is the benchmark?
As I said, I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. Myself and players like me took control and solved this issue long ago. That is what it takes and it is not in this thread.
Anyone who is actually serious about dealing with fake tanks, healers, and low DPS should do the same and take control of their game and dungeon experience. Otherwise, they will have to deal with what comes their way. That's a fact jack.
Running away from discrimination vs fighting against discrimination.
It is not discrimination. The low dps players are not selective of the groups they join and players have the same opportunity to kick them as they do for fake tanks and fake healers. So it cannot be discrimination regardless of attempts to classify it as such.
That is taking action. That is real action with a very heavy effect that sends a loud and clear message. Players have been reminded about that for a long as threads like this existed. If players did this across the board we would not have threads like this.
0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DD mainIt's all about intentions. As long as you purposely annoy your fellow players, you are a "fake smth".
The problem is, it's nigh impossible to tell the two apart, so, I understand the frustration of real tanks and heals.
However, I said it before. In veteran, the majority of DD are good.
The thing that really bugs me about this "intentions" thing is that vilifies tanks and healers for not performing their job, while assumes innocence of a DPS when they don't perform theirs.
Which is wild to me because I see all of the time people describe their own DPS as knowingly bad, but they don't care. It's for a variety of reasons. Nothing wrong with that, but then such players should be queued for normal rather than vet. And they know that and for the most part usually do, unless they want extra keys, monster helms, or the achievement. Then they queue for vet.
Similarly, a fake tank could have intended to cheat the queue because they had no intent to perform their role. But, I have also met others who didn't understand aggro. And had every intention of performing their role because they thought if they attacked first and did good damage, they'd automatically keep aggro.
So, why is it that DDs we have to give them the benefit of the doubt that their intentions are good when they can't perform their role. And we are supposed to assume bad intentions when a Tank or a Healer can't perform their role?
Instead of assuming intent in a way that is really unfair to tanks and healers, I personally think it's much more fair to just remove intent from the equation at all. And instead, simply judge impact.
A fake role being anyone who doesn't perform the bare minimum asked of the role (taunt, heals, DPS checks literally designed to be passable by slightly below average dps) treats everyone fairly. It gives the same responsibility to all players. And it gives the same benefit of the doubt as to intentions to all players.
3 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Main neitherspartaxoxo wrote: »It's all about intentions. As long as you purposely annoy your fellow players, you are a "fake smth".
The problem is, it's nigh impossible to tell the two apart, so, I understand the frustration of real tanks and heals.
However, I said it before. In veteran, the majority of DD are good.
The thing that really bugs me about this "intentions" thing is that vilifies tanks and healers for not performing their job, while assumes innocence of a DPS when they don't perform theirs.
Which is wild to me because I see all of the time people describe their own DPS as knowingly bad, but they don't care. It's for a variety of reasons. Nothing wrong with that, but then such players should be queued for normal rather than vet. And they know that and for the most part usually do, unless they want extra keys, monster helms, or the achievement. Then they queue for vet.
Similarly, a fake tank could have intended to cheat the queue because they had no intent to perform their role. But, I have also met others who didn't understand aggro. And had every intention of performing their role because they thought if they attacked first and did good damage, they'd automatically keep aggro.
So, why is it that DDs we have to give them the benefit of the doubt that their intentions are good when they can't perform their role. And we are supposed to assume bad intentions when a Tank or a Healer can't perform their role?
Instead of assuming intent in a way that is really unfair to tanks and healers, I personally think it's much more fair to just remove intent from the equation at all. And instead, simply judge impact.
A fake role being anyone who doesn't perform the bare minimum asked of the role (taunt, heals, DPS checks literally designed to be passable by slightly below average dps) treats everyone fairly. It gives the same responsibility to all players. And it gives the same benefit of the doubt as to intentions to all players.
I personally always enjoy the dds who call you a "bad tank" or fake when they dont understand their own skills and keep taking agro. Like bruh my bar literally says i have 10 seconds left on taunt and i justsaw you cast a skill with a taunt...2 -
preevious✭✭✭✭✭
✭DD mainspartaxoxo wrote: »It's all about intentions. As long as you purposely annoy your fellow players, you are a "fake smth".
The problem is, it's nigh impossible to tell the two apart, so, I understand the frustration of real tanks and heals.
However, I said it before. In veteran, the majority of DD are good.
The thing that really bugs me about this "intentions" thing is that vilifies tanks and healers for not performing their job, while assumes innocence of a DPS when they don't perform theirs.
Which is wild to me because I see all of the time people describe their own DPS as knowingly bad, but they don't care. It's for a variety of reasons. Nothing wrong with that, but then such players should be queued for normal rather than vet. And they know that and for the most part usually do, unless they want extra keys, monster helms, or the achievement. Then they queue for vet.
Similarly, a fake tank could have intended to cheat the queue because they had no intent to perform their role. But, I have also met others who didn't understand aggro. And had every intention of performing their role because they thought if they attacked first and did good damage, they'd automatically keep aggro.
So, why is it that DDs we have to give them the benefit of the doubt that their intentions are good when they can't perform their role. And we are supposed to assume bad intentions when a Tank or a Healer can't perform their role?
Instead of assuming intent in a way that is really unfair to tanks and healers, I personally think it's much more fair to just remove intent from the equation at all. And instead, simply judge impact.
A fake role being anyone who doesn't perform the bare minimum asked of the role (taunt, heals, DPS checks literally designed to be passable by slightly below average dps) treats everyone fairly. It gives the same responsibility to all players. And it gives the same benefit of the doubt as to intentions to all players.
I'm sorry, but I don't get your point.
I do not "vilify" tanks or heals. I actually want them in every one of my runs.
Intent to cheat is obvious, at least in fake tanks. If he comes with 20k HP, that means he put every one of his stat points in either stam or mag.
While I agree that some tanks do this, those are very specific builds. There is absolutely no way that a earnest tank who 'didn't understand aggro" would do this. He's absolutely a fake tank.
And a healer that does not heal is easily spotted as well. There's no way someone do not use any heal "as an honnest mistake".
So, yes .. it's the way things are, and intentions still stands. .
It's very hard to differenciate a fake DD from a bad DD, and thus, yes .. benefit of the doubt, because the intent is not obvious.
For fake tanks and heals are, on the other hand, intent is quite obvious.
Again, I'm not vilifying anyone. It just seem obvious to me. And again, I'm the last person that would vilify tanks and heal.
I'm complaining enough about fake role for everyone to understand I need and respect the real ones.Edited by preevious on September 22, 2023 7:03PM2 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Main neitherspartaxoxo wrote: »It's all about intentions. As long as you purposely annoy your fellow players, you are a "fake smth".
The problem is, it's nigh impossible to tell the two apart, so, I understand the frustration of real tanks and heals.
However, I said it before. In veteran, the majority of DD are good.
The thing that really bugs me about this "intentions" thing is that vilifies tanks and healers for not performing their job, while assumes innocence of a DPS when they don't perform theirs.
Which is wild to me because I see all of the time people describe their own DPS as knowingly bad, but they don't care. It's for a variety of reasons. Nothing wrong with that, but then such players should be queued for normal rather than vet. And they know that and for the most part usually do, unless they want extra keys, monster helms, or the achievement. Then they queue for vet.
Similarly, a fake tank could have intended to cheat the queue because they had no intent to perform their role. But, I have also met others who didn't understand aggro. And had every intention of performing their role because they thought if they attacked first and did good damage, they'd automatically keep aggro.
So, why is it that DDs we have to give them the benefit of the doubt that their intentions are good when they can't perform their role. And we are supposed to assume bad intentions when a Tank or a Healer can't perform their role?
Instead of assuming intent in a way that is really unfair to tanks and healers, I personally think it's much more fair to just remove intent from the equation at all. And instead, simply judge impact.
A fake role being anyone who doesn't perform the bare minimum asked of the role (taunt, heals, DPS checks literally designed to be passable by slightly below average dps) treats everyone fairly. It gives the same responsibility to all players. And it gives the same benefit of the doubt as to intentions to all players.
I'm sorry, but I don't get your point.
I do not "vilify" tanks or heals. I actually want them in every one of my runs.
Intent to cheat is obvious, at least in fake tanks. If he comes with 20k HP, that means he put every one of his stat points in either stam or mag.
While I agree that some tanks do this, those are very specific builds. There is absolutely no way that a earnest tank who 'didn't understand aggro" would do this. He's absolutely a fake tank.
And a healer that does not heal is easily spotted as well. There's no way someone do not use any heal "as an honnest mistake".
So, yes .. it's the way things are, and intentions still stands. .
It's very hard to differenciate a fake DD from a bad DD, and thus, yes .. benefit of the doubt, because the intent is not obvious.
For fake tanks and heals are, on the other hand, intent is quite obvious.
Again, I'm not vilifying anyone. It just seem obvious to me. And again, I'm the last person that would vilify tanks and heal.
I'm complaining enough about fake role for everyone to understand I need and respect the real ones.
😆 story time. Last night i went into normal moonhunter keep qued as a dps with my blade. As y'll know even some normal dlcs have 1 shot mechs for dps. Ok so low and behold fake tank, fake healer. Kept dying sooo as it happened i had just made some gear for my tank and my blade is my main and also a crafter so he had it in his inventory. So what did i do? I ate some stam food, slotted a tuant and put my freakin tank gear on my 19k health blade dps (gear hadnt been enchanted yet) and tanked the dungeon. Honestly. I didnt even know what to say at the end.Edited by boi_anachronism_ on September 22, 2023 7:47PM1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DD mainIntent to cheat is obvious, at least in fake tanks. If he comes with 20k HP, that means he put every one of his stat points in either stam or mag.
While I agree that some tanks do this, those are very specific builds. There is absolutely no way that a earnest tank who 'didn't understand aggro" would do this. He's absolutely a fake tank.
But a DPS with 35k HP spamming light attacks with a bow didn't obviously build in a way they prioritized survivability over damage?
Beyond that, I have met several "tanks" that did precisely that. Some of them even announced it because they were like "let me attack first so I can get aggro," or when I complained about them holding aggro they'd snap that they are trying and they usually keep aggro really good because "aggro goes to the person with the most damage if there's no taunt."
The argument that we can assume a DPS is pure intent when they are obviously built incorrectly, but a tank is a "liar and cheat" when they are obviously built incorrectly, is unfairly withholding the benefit of the doubt from support role players.
Plenty of players just don't understand aggro anymore than they understand damage.Edited by spartaxoxo on September 23, 2023 7:35PM3 -
preevious✭✭✭✭✭
✭DD mainspartaxoxo wrote: »Intent to cheat is obvious, at least in fake tanks. If he comes with 20k HP, that means he put every one of his stat points in either stam or mag.
While I agree that some tanks do this, those are very specific builds. There is absolutely no way that a earnest tank who 'didn't understand aggro" would do this. He's absolutely a fake tank.
But a DPS with 35k HP spamming light attacks with a bow didn't obviously build in a way they prioritized survivability over damage?
Beyond that, I have met several "tanks" that did precisely that. Some of them even announced it because they were like "let me attack first so I can get aggro," or when I complained about them holding aggro they'd snap that they are trying and they usually keep aggro really good because "aggro goes to the person with the most damage if there's no taunt."
The argument that we can assume a DPS is pure intent when they are obviously built incorrectly, but a tank is a "liar and cheat" when they are obviously built incorrectly, is unfairly withholding the benefit of the doubt from support role players.
Plenty of players just don't understand aggro anymore than they understand damage.
Hmmm .. I see your point.
Maybe I"m biased because I"m a DPS myself. I rarely see DPS with 35k hp, though .. Bad DPS, sure, it happens sometimes, but they always seem at a glance like a DPS, with the HP of one.
But yes, a DPS with 35-40k doing mediocre damage would be dishonnest in my views, so, yes, I'll agree with you on that one, despite never having encountered it myself.Edited by preevious on September 23, 2023 8:25PM2 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Support mainForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).
People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.
I doubt there is anyone who is only doing one dps in dungeons. They would have to just stand there doing nothing most of the time in which case they are probably a troll. Trolls in the GF are not what this thread is about.
In other words, thx for verifying the accuracy of my comment that a low dps damage dealer is still a damage dealer.
Have you read the comments from others on the negative side? Clearly “1 dps make it real” is what they are pushing
I see no need to read every single comment made. However, if they do 1 DPS they are still dealing damage which makes them a damage dealer by definition. In reality, someone doing that little damage is a troll as it takes a lot of work to keep damage that low.
Most of the comments trying to define fake DPS are nothing more than describing what someone thinks is pitiful DPS but it is far from fake. They are just not very good, far from it. People who want to avoid such poor performers need to pre-form their group. The experiences I have had running with my guild are far superior to the best experience I had when I used to use the GF to get groups.
“Doing 1 dps make them real dd” is your definition of roles, this is not accepted by us on the affirmative side. This is the exact topic we are debating.
And our main counter to your definition is: such definition is fundamentally discriminatory against tanks, it is requiring tank to do what dd does, and more.
And we desire equality.
I see no reason to discuss a theoretical that will never happen unless the player is a troll and such a discussion will solve nothing.
Normalizing having expectations for people in dd role, normalizing kicking people who don’t contribute enough, treating people in different roles equally, there is plenty to gain for us on the affirmative side.
What does this have to do with the arbitrary 1 DPS that does not exist?
As for this thread normalizing any expectations? It will not. It is for each group to decide for themselves what they will accept or not accept in any aspect of the group. This thread will not have an effect as most will have never even read this thread.
I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. I solved this issue long ago.
Every grass roots social movements starts like this.
Sure most will not read this, but the words will spread. Since you can’t refute that your (and people like you) differential treatment of tank and dd is discriminatory, we will keep speaking up to fight against this injustice.
If you wish to silence us, prove us wrong or give us equality.
Again, what does this have to do with your argument that 1 DPS is the benchmark?
As I said, I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. Myself and players like me took control and solved this issue long ago. That is what it takes and it is not in this thread.
Anyone who is actually serious about dealing with fake tanks, healers, and low DPS should do the same and take control of their game and dungeon experience. Otherwise, they will have to deal with what comes their way. That's a fact jack.
Running away from discrimination vs fighting against discrimination.
It is not discrimination. The low dps players are not selective of the groups they join and players have the same opportunity to kick them as they do for fake tanks and fake healers. So it cannot be discrimination regardless of attempts to classify it as such.
That is taking action. That is real action with a very heavy effect that sends a loud and clear message. Players have been reminded about that for a long as threads like this existed. If players did this across the board we would not have threads like this.
Equal rights to file complaints” and “equal chance to get fired” are not justification for “same pay but extra work”, at least not IRL.
We rightfully deserve “equal pay for about same amount of work”, and too should be empowered to get “coworkers” fired easier if he/she barely do anything.
1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DD mainspartaxoxo wrote: »Intent to cheat is obvious, at least in fake tanks. If he comes with 20k HP, that means he put every one of his stat points in either stam or mag.
While I agree that some tanks do this, those are very specific builds. There is absolutely no way that a earnest tank who 'didn't understand aggro" would do this. He's absolutely a fake tank.
But a DPS with 35k HP spamming light attacks with a bow didn't obviously build in a way they prioritized survivability over damage?
Beyond that, I have met several "tanks" that did precisely that. Some of them even announced it because they were like "let me attack first so I can get aggro," or when I complained about them holding aggro they'd snap that they are trying and they usually keep aggro really good because "aggro goes to the person with the most damage if there's no taunt."
The argument that we can assume a DPS is pure intent when they are obviously built incorrectly, but a tank is a "liar and cheat" when they are obviously built incorrectly, is unfairly withholding the benefit of the doubt from support role players.
Plenty of players just don't understand aggro anymore than they understand damage.
Hmmm .. I see your point.
Maybe I"m biased because I"m a DPS myself. I rarely see DPS with 35k hp, though .. Bad DPS, sure, it happens sometimes, but they always seem at a glance like a DPS, with the HP of one.
But yes, a DPS with 35-40k doing mediocre damage would be dishonnest in my views, so, yes, I'll agree with you on that one, despite never having encountered it myself.
Ah. Well, thanks for being open minded! I didn't actually used to notice it. It wasn't until I tried to make a pure tank that I did. For one thing, a DPS player will ofc take up one of the DPS slots. So instead of two chances to get a fake DPS, you only have one. But for the other, honestly because my damage was good, I didn't have a lot of problems in dungeons even if the other DPS wasn't good. So I didn't play close attention.
Once I was a pure tank though, and I noticed the damage was unbearably poor, I started to actually watch what they were doing. It was a lot of bow light attack only spamming (why always bow, I'll never know), DPS with a bunch of hp, sparse and random use of damage skills, running and dodging all over the place for seemingly no reason as they weren't taking damage and no threats were near by. These players just weren't doing damage player things. So, that's when I became convinced there was a different between a bad DPS (could meet the damage checks and the dungeon was slightly slower than average) and fake ones.Edited by spartaxoxo on September 23, 2023 9:39PM2 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Main neitherToday in tank life: trying to do my undaunted. Qued pulled into a dungeon that had a fake tank that left. Did not get credit because i wasnt there for one boss...have to do it all over now..0 -
PrincessOfThieves✭✭✭✭✭
✭DD mainboi_anachronism_ wrote: »Today in tank life: trying to do my undaunted. Qued pulled into a dungeon that had a fake tank that left. Did not get credit because i wasnt there for one boss...have to do it all over now..
I don't know how it is now, but it was possible to join only for vet hardmode and then do the dungeon on normal for the remaining bosses. Which is also annoying but not as time consuming as doing vet hm again.Edited by PrincessOfThieves on September 24, 2023 12:54PM0 -
OBJnoob✭✭✭✭✭
✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).
People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.
I doubt there is anyone who is only doing one dps in dungeons. They would have to just stand there doing nothing most of the time in which case they are probably a troll. Trolls in the GF are not what this thread is about.
In other words, thx for verifying the accuracy of my comment that a low dps damage dealer is still a damage dealer.
Have you read the comments from others on the negative side? Clearly “1 dps make it real” is what they are pushing
I see no need to read every single comment made. However, if they do 1 DPS they are still dealing damage which makes them a damage dealer by definition. In reality, someone doing that little damage is a troll as it takes a lot of work to keep damage that low.
Most of the comments trying to define fake DPS are nothing more than describing what someone thinks is pitiful DPS but it is far from fake. They are just not very good, far from it. People who want to avoid such poor performers need to pre-form their group. The experiences I have had running with my guild are far superior to the best experience I had when I used to use the GF to get groups.
“Doing 1 dps make them real dd” is your definition of roles, this is not accepted by us on the affirmative side. This is the exact topic we are debating.
And our main counter to your definition is: such definition is fundamentally discriminatory against tanks, it is requiring tank to do what dd does, and more.
And we desire equality.
I see no reason to discuss a theoretical that will never happen unless the player is a troll and such a discussion will solve nothing.
Normalizing having expectations for people in dd role, normalizing kicking people who don’t contribute enough, treating people in different roles equally, there is plenty to gain for us on the affirmative side.
What does this have to do with the arbitrary 1 DPS that does not exist?
As for this thread normalizing any expectations? It will not. It is for each group to decide for themselves what they will accept or not accept in any aspect of the group. This thread will not have an effect as most will have never even read this thread.
I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. I solved this issue long ago.
Every grass roots social movements starts like this.
Sure most will not read this, but the words will spread. Since you can’t refute that your (and people like you) differential treatment of tank and dd is discriminatory, we will keep speaking up to fight against this injustice.
If you wish to silence us, prove us wrong or give us equality.
Again, what does this have to do with your argument that 1 DPS is the benchmark?
As I said, I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. Myself and players like me took control and solved this issue long ago. That is what it takes and it is not in this thread.
Anyone who is actually serious about dealing with fake tanks, healers, and low DPS should do the same and take control of their game and dungeon experience. Otherwise, they will have to deal with what comes their way. That's a fact jack.
Running away from discrimination vs fighting against discrimination.
Imagine trying to frame this all as a discrimination thing... While seeking to create a standard for DPS... By which they can be discriminated against. Lol?
It's about the game. Leave it about the game. Your desire to weed out the crappy players is understandable within the framework of the game itself. It doesn't translate well, morally, if you try to make the issue more serious than it is.1 -
AvalonRanger✭✭✭✭✭Support mainAvalonRanger wrote: »My opinion of Fake dd definition is...
1, 2DD player who can't kill Vet BanishingCell-2 last boss with real tank and real healer support
until 5th Deadroth show up IS FAKE DD.
2, Player who keep standing AoE like the target dummy training IS FAKE DD.
3, Player who doesn't have any of self defense technique, and wiped by lethal mech many times
IS FAKE DD.(except tank's or healer's failure )
4, Player who keep attacking meaningless mobs or dangerous mobs at the HallowStorms ground
and ignore Pike is FAKE DD.
Not just damage amount, skillful attack and evade, and must have good combat strategy mind set.
Ah, I remember most important game logic of ESO.
Taunting duration is 15 second, right?
If DD can't eliminate mobs within 15 sec and killed by mobs, then It's 100% DD's failure.
Same failure logic happen in boss fighting.
I usually keep watching taunting duration timer of Mod UI.
If I notice that DD didn't do much of effective damage work until taunt expired,
or healer didn't do good healing work for the DD and 3 of us wiped many times by the same mech.
Then I quit tanking and leave. Because there're not much chance to finish the mission in those situation.
If it is normal dungeon, then It may be OK. But in DLC Vet dungeon , totally not.
Edited by AvalonRanger on September 24, 2023 2:14PMMy playing time Mon-Friday UTC13:00-16:00 [PC-NA] CP over2000 now.
I have [1Tough tank] [1StamSorc-DD] [1Necro-DD] [1Real Healer]
with [1Stam Blade].
But, I'm Tank main player. Recently I'm doing Healer.
2023/12/21
By the way...Dungeon-Meshi(One of Famous Japanese fantasy story comic book) got finale...
Good-bye "King of Monster Eater".
2024/08/23
Farewell Atsuko Tanaka...(-_-) I never forget epic acting for major Motoko Kusanagi.1 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Support mainForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).
People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.
I doubt there is anyone who is only doing one dps in dungeons. They would have to just stand there doing nothing most of the time in which case they are probably a troll. Trolls in the GF are not what this thread is about.
In other words, thx for verifying the accuracy of my comment that a low dps damage dealer is still a damage dealer.
Have you read the comments from others on the negative side? Clearly “1 dps make it real” is what they are pushing
I see no need to read every single comment made. However, if they do 1 DPS they are still dealing damage which makes them a damage dealer by definition. In reality, someone doing that little damage is a troll as it takes a lot of work to keep damage that low.
Most of the comments trying to define fake DPS are nothing more than describing what someone thinks is pitiful DPS but it is far from fake. They are just not very good, far from it. People who want to avoid such poor performers need to pre-form their group. The experiences I have had running with my guild are far superior to the best experience I had when I used to use the GF to get groups.
“Doing 1 dps make them real dd” is your definition of roles, this is not accepted by us on the affirmative side. This is the exact topic we are debating.
And our main counter to your definition is: such definition is fundamentally discriminatory against tanks, it is requiring tank to do what dd does, and more.
And we desire equality.
I see no reason to discuss a theoretical that will never happen unless the player is a troll and such a discussion will solve nothing.
Normalizing having expectations for people in dd role, normalizing kicking people who don’t contribute enough, treating people in different roles equally, there is plenty to gain for us on the affirmative side.
What does this have to do with the arbitrary 1 DPS that does not exist?
As for this thread normalizing any expectations? It will not. It is for each group to decide for themselves what they will accept or not accept in any aspect of the group. This thread will not have an effect as most will have never even read this thread.
I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. I solved this issue long ago.
Every grass roots social movements starts like this.
Sure most will not read this, but the words will spread. Since you can’t refute that your (and people like you) differential treatment of tank and dd is discriminatory, we will keep speaking up to fight against this injustice.
If you wish to silence us, prove us wrong or give us equality.
Again, what does this have to do with your argument that 1 DPS is the benchmark?
As I said, I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. Myself and players like me took control and solved this issue long ago. That is what it takes and it is not in this thread.
Anyone who is actually serious about dealing with fake tanks, healers, and low DPS should do the same and take control of their game and dungeon experience. Otherwise, they will have to deal with what comes their way. That's a fact jack.
Running away from discrimination vs fighting against discrimination.
Imagine trying to frame this all as a discrimination thing... While seeking to create a standard for DPS... By which they can be discriminated against. Lol?
It's about the game. Leave it about the game. Your desire to weed out the crappy players is understandable within the framework of the game itself. It doesn't translate well, morally, if you try to make the issue more serious than it is.
It’s not discrimination to remove unfair privileges from certain group, that’s establishing equality.
It doesn’t translate well morally to justify differential treatment.1 -
OBJnoob✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you don't plan on treating anyone differently then what's the point of this discussion?0 -
OBJnoob✭✭✭✭✭
✭Treated equally in that we can try to define some as good, some as bad, and discriminate against the bad ones?
As many others have said, the word "fake" in this context should only apply to those that INTENTIONALLY que as the wrong role. And there's only one reason to do that. And nobody does it for the role with the longest que.
So while you're correct that the roles should be enforced and judged equally, you're trying to force equality where there can be none... Because the crime simply doesn't exist for 1 of the 3.
And you're trying to broaden the definition of the crime so people can be discriminated against.
You're falsely accusing people of things.
There are plenty of systems in place. The group finder is one. Guild groups is another. Arbitrarily choosing a number, below which you get kicked and ridiculed and accused of trolling, is not a system we need. People can do that all on their own.1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DD mainAs many others have said, the word "fake" in this context should only apply to those that INTENTIONALLY que as the wrong role.
A DPS can absolutely queue for a vet dungeon knowingly looking to be carried for a monster helm, keys, achievement furniture, etc.
On top of that, intentions can't be judged by actions alone. Tanks without taunts who had every intention of maintaining aggro exist. I've met them. Most of them thought if they attacked first or did the most damage, they'd maintain aggro. So, despite the fact they were built like DPS and did not bother to slot a taunt, they were real tanks by intent based definitions.Edited by spartaxoxo on September 24, 2023 11:51PM2 -
OBJnoob✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »As many others have said, the word "fake" in this context should only apply to those that INTENTIONALLY que as the wrong role.
A DPS can absolutely queue for a vet dungeon knowingly looking to be carried for a monster helm, keys, achievement furniture, etc.
On top of that, intentions can't be judged by actions alone. Tanks without taunts who had every intention of maintaining aggro exist. I've met them. Most of them thought if they attacked first or did the most damage, they'd maintain aggro. So, despite the fact they were built like DPS and did not bother to slot a taunt, they were real tanks by intent based definitions.
So don't call anyone fake, don't worry about their intentions because you don't know them anyway, and just do what you gotta do?
Yes I agree.1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DD mainspartaxoxo wrote: »As many others have said, the word "fake" in this context should only apply to those that INTENTIONALLY que as the wrong role.
A DPS can absolutely queue for a vet dungeon knowingly looking to be carried for a monster helm, keys, achievement furniture, etc.
On top of that, intentions can't be judged by actions alone. Tanks without taunts who had every intention of maintaining aggro exist. I've met them. Most of them thought if they attacked first or did the most damage, they'd maintain aggro. So, despite the fact they were built like DPS and did not bother to slot a taunt, they were real tanks by intent based definitions.
So don't call anyone fake, don't worry about their intentions because you don't know them anyway, and just do what you gotta do?
Yes I agree.
I'd certainly find that more equal than how things are now. Personally, I'd be okay with "fake" exiting the terminology used in game if we had some other word to use.1 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).
People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.
I doubt there is anyone who is only doing one dps in dungeons. They would have to just stand there doing nothing most of the time in which case they are probably a troll. Trolls in the GF are not what this thread is about.
In other words, thx for verifying the accuracy of my comment that a low dps damage dealer is still a damage dealer.
Have you read the comments from others on the negative side? Clearly “1 dps make it real” is what they are pushing
I see no need to read every single comment made. However, if they do 1 DPS they are still dealing damage which makes them a damage dealer by definition. In reality, someone doing that little damage is a troll as it takes a lot of work to keep damage that low.
Most of the comments trying to define fake DPS are nothing more than describing what someone thinks is pitiful DPS but it is far from fake. They are just not very good, far from it. People who want to avoid such poor performers need to pre-form their group. The experiences I have had running with my guild are far superior to the best experience I had when I used to use the GF to get groups.
“Doing 1 dps make them real dd” is your definition of roles, this is not accepted by us on the affirmative side. This is the exact topic we are debating.
And our main counter to your definition is: such definition is fundamentally discriminatory against tanks, it is requiring tank to do what dd does, and more.
And we desire equality.
I see no reason to discuss a theoretical that will never happen unless the player is a troll and such a discussion will solve nothing.
Normalizing having expectations for people in dd role, normalizing kicking people who don’t contribute enough, treating people in different roles equally, there is plenty to gain for us on the affirmative side.
What does this have to do with the arbitrary 1 DPS that does not exist?
As for this thread normalizing any expectations? It will not. It is for each group to decide for themselves what they will accept or not accept in any aspect of the group. This thread will not have an effect as most will have never even read this thread.
I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. I solved this issue long ago.
Every grass roots social movements starts like this.
Sure most will not read this, but the words will spread. Since you can’t refute that your (and people like you) differential treatment of tank and dd is discriminatory, we will keep speaking up to fight against this injustice.
If you wish to silence us, prove us wrong or give us equality.
Again, what does this have to do with your argument that 1 DPS is the benchmark?
As I said, I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. Myself and players like me took control and solved this issue long ago. That is what it takes and it is not in this thread.
Anyone who is actually serious about dealing with fake tanks, healers, and low DPS should do the same and take control of their game and dungeon experience. Otherwise, they will have to deal with what comes their way. That's a fact jack.
Running away from discrimination vs fighting against discrimination.
It is not discrimination. The low dps players are not selective of the groups they join and players have the same opportunity to kick them as they do for fake tanks and fake healers. So it cannot be discrimination regardless of attempts to classify it as such.
That is taking action. That is real action with a very heavy effect that sends a loud and clear message. Players have been reminded about that for a long as threads like this existed. If players did this across the board we would not have threads like this.
Equal rights to file complaints” and “equal chance to get fired” are not justification for “same pay but extra work”, at least not IRL.
We rightfully deserve “equal pay for about same amount of work”, and too should be empowered to get “coworkers” fired easier if he/she barely do anything.
I have already pointed out we have been able to fire players from a GF group for years. It is a very simple and straightforward process.
Vote kick the player. If a group votes a player out for performance reasons then they are fired. If the group does not vote the player out they have accepted their performance as sufficient to stay in the group. That includes not even trying to vote to kick.
The problem was solved long ago. We have the power in a very fair and democratic manner.
Glad I could point this out and clear things up.
Edited by Amottica on September 25, 2023 12:44AM1 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Support mainForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).
People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.
I doubt there is anyone who is only doing one dps in dungeons. They would have to just stand there doing nothing most of the time in which case they are probably a troll. Trolls in the GF are not what this thread is about.
In other words, thx for verifying the accuracy of my comment that a low dps damage dealer is still a damage dealer.
Have you read the comments from others on the negative side? Clearly “1 dps make it real” is what they are pushing
I see no need to read every single comment made. However, if they do 1 DPS they are still dealing damage which makes them a damage dealer by definition. In reality, someone doing that little damage is a troll as it takes a lot of work to keep damage that low.
Most of the comments trying to define fake DPS are nothing more than describing what someone thinks is pitiful DPS but it is far from fake. They are just not very good, far from it. People who want to avoid such poor performers need to pre-form their group. The experiences I have had running with my guild are far superior to the best experience I had when I used to use the GF to get groups.
“Doing 1 dps make them real dd” is your definition of roles, this is not accepted by us on the affirmative side. This is the exact topic we are debating.
And our main counter to your definition is: such definition is fundamentally discriminatory against tanks, it is requiring tank to do what dd does, and more.
And we desire equality.
I see no reason to discuss a theoretical that will never happen unless the player is a troll and such a discussion will solve nothing.
Normalizing having expectations for people in dd role, normalizing kicking people who don’t contribute enough, treating people in different roles equally, there is plenty to gain for us on the affirmative side.
What does this have to do with the arbitrary 1 DPS that does not exist?
As for this thread normalizing any expectations? It will not. It is for each group to decide for themselves what they will accept or not accept in any aspect of the group. This thread will not have an effect as most will have never even read this thread.
I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. I solved this issue long ago.
Every grass roots social movements starts like this.
Sure most will not read this, but the words will spread. Since you can’t refute that your (and people like you) differential treatment of tank and dd is discriminatory, we will keep speaking up to fight against this injustice.
If you wish to silence us, prove us wrong or give us equality.
Again, what does this have to do with your argument that 1 DPS is the benchmark?
As I said, I do not have problems with low DPS in dungeon groups. Myself and players like me took control and solved this issue long ago. That is what it takes and it is not in this thread.
Anyone who is actually serious about dealing with fake tanks, healers, and low DPS should do the same and take control of their game and dungeon experience. Otherwise, they will have to deal with what comes their way. That's a fact jack.
Running away from discrimination vs fighting against discrimination.
It is not discrimination. The low dps players are not selective of the groups they join and players have the same opportunity to kick them as they do for fake tanks and fake healers. So it cannot be discrimination regardless of attempts to classify it as such.
That is taking action. That is real action with a very heavy effect that sends a loud and clear message. Players have been reminded about that for a long as threads like this existed. If players did this across the board we would not have threads like this.
Equal rights to file complaints” and “equal chance to get fired” are not justification for “same pay but extra work”, at least not IRL.
We rightfully deserve “equal pay for about same amount of work”, and too should be empowered to get “coworkers” fired easier if he/she barely do anything.
I have already pointed out we have been able to fire players from a GF group for years. It is a very simple and straightforward process.
Vote kick the player. If a group votes a player out for performance reasons then they are fired. If the group does not vote the player out they have accepted their performance as sufficient to stay in the group. That includes not even trying to vote to kick.
The problem was solved long ago. We have the power in a very fair and democratic manner.
Glad I could point this out and clear things up.
Having some power to fight against discrimination is not a proof that discrimination doesn’t exist.
1 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Support mainspartaxoxo wrote: »As many others have said, the word "fake" in this context should only apply to those that INTENTIONALLY que as the wrong role.
A DPS can absolutely queue for a vet dungeon knowingly looking to be carried for a monster helm, keys, achievement furniture, etc.
On top of that, intentions can't be judged by actions alone. Tanks without taunts who had every intention of maintaining aggro exist. I've met them. Most of them thought if they attacked first or did the most damage, they'd maintain aggro. So, despite the fact they were built like DPS and did not bother to slot a taunt, they were real tanks by intent based definitions.
So don't call anyone fake, don't worry about their intentions because you don't know them anyway, and just do what you gotta do?
Yes I agree.
You are the one that insisted intention matters, most people on affirmative side don’t believe intention matters, since “we don’t know them anyways”.
Real or fake should be based on performance. A person who can’t contribute enough as any of the 3 roles, is a fake regardless of what role they select.1 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Support mainTreated equally in that we can try to define some as good, some as bad, and discriminate against the bad ones?
As many others have said, the word "fake" in this context should only apply to those that INTENTIONALLY que as the wrong role. And there's only one reason to do that. And nobody does it for the role with the longest que.
So while you're correct that the roles should be enforced and judged equally, you're trying to force equality where there can be none... Because the crime simply doesn't exist for 1 of the 3.
And you're trying to broaden the definition of the crime so people can be discriminated against.
You're falsely accusing people of things.
There are plenty of systems in place. The group finder is one. Guild groups is another. Arbitrarily choosing a number, below which you get kicked and ridiculed and accused of trolling, is not a system we need. People can do that all on their own.
As i said already, a person who can’t contribute enough to as any role is a always fake. Although I don’t care about intention much, such person definitely “intentionally chose the wrong role”.
Equality is “everyone is subjected to the same set of rules”, you are advocating for dd can “play whatever they want” while supports can’t. That’s not equality.
Not kicking fake dd is equity not equality, everyone in the same group achieve same result. Refusing equity is not discriminatory, and I didn’t see you suggest fake supports should enjoy this equity.
“Crime simply doesn’t exist for 1 of the 3 group” is exactly why such system is discriminatory towards the other 2 groups. That’s you justifying different set of rules for different groups.
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This discussion has been closed.