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Fake dd definition and classification debate
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Reverb✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Support mainThere are no fake dps. Even bad dps is still dps. There are people who are poorly outfitted, or unfamiliar with mechanics, or unskilled at their build and/or rotation. But they’re still doing dps.
Sometimes those people are open to learning and growing. Sometimes they are not willing to change and will continue doing lousy dps in every group they’re a part of.
But bad dps isn’t fake dps. It’s just bad.Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~Friedrich Nietzsche4 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Support mainThere are no fake dps. Even bad dps is still dps. There are people who are poorly outfitted, or unfamiliar with mechanics, or unskilled at their build and/or rotation. But they’re still doing dps.
Sometimes those people are open to learning and growing. Sometimes they are not willing to change and will continue doing lousy dps in every group they’re a part of.
But bad dps isn’t fake dps. It’s just bad.
How you define real tank and healer then?1 -
Reverb✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Support mainForzaRammer wrote: »There are no fake dps. Even bad dps is still dps. There are people who are poorly outfitted, or unfamiliar with mechanics, or unskilled at their build and/or rotation. But they’re still doing dps.
Sometimes those people are open to learning and growing. Sometimes they are not willing to change and will continue doing lousy dps in every group they’re a part of.
But bad dps isn’t fake dps. It’s just bad.
How you define real tank and healer then?
A tank with no taunt and no group utility is a fake tank. They are failing to perform the core function of their role. A tank who doesn’t cc mobs, sometimes loses aggro, and doesn’t debuff is a bad tank but still a tank.
A player who doesn’t have HoT and burst group heals is a fake healer. They are failing to perform the core function of their role. A healer who has group healing but doesn’t keep buffs up, doesn’t assist with group resource management, and doesn’t anticipate when burst heals will be needed is a bad healer. But still a healer.Edited by Reverb on September 18, 2023 10:45PMBattle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~Friedrich Nietzsche1 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Support mainForzaRammer wrote: »There are no fake dps. Even bad dps is still dps. There are people who are poorly outfitted, or unfamiliar with mechanics, or unskilled at their build and/or rotation. But they’re still doing dps.
Sometimes those people are open to learning and growing. Sometimes they are not willing to change and will continue doing lousy dps in every group they’re a part of.
But bad dps isn’t fake dps. It’s just bad.
How you define real tank and healer then?
A tank with no taunt and no group utility is a fake tank. They are failing to perform the core function of their role. A tank who doesn’t cc mobs, sometimes loses aggro, and doesn’t debuff is a bad tank but still a tank.
A player who doesn’t have HoT and burst group heals is a fake healer. They are failing to perform the core function of their role. A healer who has group healing but doesn’t keep buffs up, doesn’t assist with group resource management, and doesn’t anticipate when burst heals will be needed is a bad healer. But still a healer.
Given the fact all taunt does damage in this game. Anyone who satisfy your definition of real tank, also satisfy your definition of real dd.
You can read the other comments i left. Basically the discussion is about the fairness of this (supported by you and some others) distribution of responsibilities,3 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Support mainForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »There are no fake dps. Even bad dps is still dps. There are people who are poorly outfitted, or unfamiliar with mechanics, or unskilled at their build and/or rotation. But they’re still doing dps.
Sometimes those people are open to learning and growing. Sometimes they are not willing to change and will continue doing lousy dps in every group they’re a part of.
But bad dps isn’t fake dps. It’s just bad.
How you define real tank and healer then?
A tank with no taunt and no group utility is a fake tank. They are failing to perform the core function of their role. A tank who doesn’t cc mobs, sometimes loses aggro, and doesn’t debuff is a bad tank but still a tank.
A player who doesn’t have HoT and burst group heals is a fake healer. They are failing to perform the core function of their role. A healer who has group healing but doesn’t keep buffs up, doesn’t assist with group resource management, and doesn’t anticipate when burst heals will be needed is a bad healer. But still a healer.
Given the fact all taunt does damage in this game. Anyone who satisfy your definition of real tank, also satisfy your definition of real dd.
You can read the other comments i left. Basically the discussion is about the fairness of this (supported by you and some others) distribution of responsibilities,
A tank can do damage but is not required to do damage. A DD is required to do damage, but there isn't really a required amount (other than "more than 0", where 0 is basically just AFK, and not a fake DD).
Fundamentally, a "fake" is trying to cheat the queue by claiming to be something they aren't, and queueing as DD is never cheating the queue because it's the slowest option. The price of a faster queue should be that you have to actually try to fill a support role, while the slowest queue has no equivalent price.Edited by the1andonlyskwex on September 18, 2023 11:18PM3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DD mainspartaxoxo wrote: »I'm kind of curious what exactly it means to "build for damage" in dungeons.
Particularly, does that involve sacrificing sustain, self heal and debuff abilities and not roll dodging out of damage because all of these reduce DPS. Does it involve trusting on support instead to cover all that while you focus on dealing damage?
Yes, a damage dealer's build should focus primarily on damage. It doesn't mean they need to play stupid, like standing in aoe. But if a player has a bunch of heals slotted and they are mostly just light attacking, that person's build isn't focused on damage.
It would be helpful to have a list of buffs and debuffs that a DD should expect support roles to provide. That would make it easier for people like myself to adapt their build to group content.
What a healer can provide will depend on their class and the type of gear they are able to obtain. For example, a Templar doesn't have access to the skill fetcher infestation, which applies minor vulnerability to an enemy, increasing the damage it takes. A warden healer is going to want to slot that though to help their dds kill things faster.
As a general rule of thumb, look for your skills that grant your party major/minor buffs. One that pretty much all healers should run since they should have a restoration staff is blessing of protection skill since it gives multiple buffs. Combat prayer is the best/most commonly picked option, but which morphs someone takes is going to be personal to who they run with.
And look for gear that provides your group with unique buffs. For example, a really popular set for healers is Spell Power Cure. You can get that from the Imperial City dungeons.0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DD mainBlood_again wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »All of these do non-zero damage. So, they would be real DPS by such a definition. There is basically no such thing as someone who isn't a DPS. They have no responsibility to the group.
I would dispute it.
Responsibility is about doing something for it, not just doing it randomly.
Anything that meets the definition of a thing, is that thing. That's why dictionary makers try to tailor definitions to be broad enough to encompass all examples of a thing, but also narrow enough to exclude things that don't count.
The problem with the "any non-zero amount" of damage definition is that includes a number of things that shouldn't fit.There is a problem with dps requirements. If we add any amount of dps to the "real DPS" definition, we momentarily put any learning player to the fake category, which is totally wrong.
Not really. The DPS checks in normal are in the basement. A vet dungeon isn't for new players, it's for vets. And I don't think it's a problem with asking people to think about their build and if they are able to complete vet content before queuing vet. Many of the ones doing so, queue knowing their character isn't ready for vet, but wanting a carry anyway.
Beyond that, plenty of people get labeled as fake tanks because they don't slot a taunt. But I've met plenty of fake tanks that thought they could damage things and maintain aggro. Such a player are also learning, but being called fakes anyway.Edited by spartaxoxo on September 19, 2023 12:11AM3 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Support mainthe1andonlyskwex wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »There are no fake dps. Even bad dps is still dps. There are people who are poorly outfitted, or unfamiliar with mechanics, or unskilled at their build and/or rotation. But they’re still doing dps.
Sometimes those people are open to learning and growing. Sometimes they are not willing to change and will continue doing lousy dps in every group they’re a part of.
But bad dps isn’t fake dps. It’s just bad.
How you define real tank and healer then?
A tank with no taunt and no group utility is a fake tank. They are failing to perform the core function of their role. A tank who doesn’t cc mobs, sometimes loses aggro, and doesn’t debuff is a bad tank but still a tank.
A player who doesn’t have HoT and burst group heals is a fake healer. They are failing to perform the core function of their role. A healer who has group healing but doesn’t keep buffs up, doesn’t assist with group resource management, and doesn’t anticipate when burst heals will be needed is a bad healer. But still a healer.
Given the fact all taunt does damage in this game. Anyone who satisfy your definition of real tank, also satisfy your definition of real dd.
You can read the other comments i left. Basically the discussion is about the fairness of this (supported by you and some others) distribution of responsibilities,
A tank can do damage but is not required to do damage. A DD is required to do damage, but there isn't really a required amount (other than "more than 0", where 0 is basically just AFK, and not a fake DD).
Fundamentally, a "fake" is trying to cheat the queue by claiming to be something they aren't, and queueing as DD is never cheating the queue because it's the slowest option. The price of a faster queue should be that you have to actually try to fill a support role, while the slowest queue has no equivalent price.
Do we need to have a discussion of prerequisites of prerequisites is still prerequisites?
Because explicitly stated or not, your definition of tank still requires tank to do damage in order to taunt.
I agree “fake” is trying to cheat the queue by claiming something they aren’t. Because the fake dd (in vet at least) IMO are often neither tank healer or dd, they are a fake regardless of what role they select.
And getting into a content they can’t contribute enough is enough insensitive to fake. And select such role offer them the highest chance to get carried.2 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).
People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.
I doubt there is anyone who is only doing one dps in dungeons. They would have to just stand there doing nothing most of the time in which case they are probably a troll. Trolls in the GF are not what this thread is about.
In other words, thx for verifying the accuracy of my comment that a low dps damage dealer is still a damage dealer.
2 -
PrincessOfThieves✭✭✭✭✭
✭DD mainThere are no fake dps. Even bad dps is still dps. There are people who are poorly outfitted, or unfamiliar with mechanics, or unskilled at their build and/or rotation. But they’re still doing dps.
Sometimes those people are open to learning and growing. Sometimes they are not willing to change and will continue doing lousy dps in every group they’re a part of.
But bad dps isn’t fake dps. It’s just bad.
Well, my tank can do like 5k dps, sometimes even 10k. She is not a dd.
My healers can do even more, and still they're not dds.
Doing a tiny bit of damage doesn't make one a dd, the same way that having aggro from the boss from time to time or slotting Vigor on your bar doesn't make you a tank or a healer. Otherwise any fake tank can claim to be a tank because they hold some of the enemy aggro.Edited by PrincessOfThieves on September 19, 2023 11:34AM2 -
Kallykat✭✭✭✭✭Support mainI think one of the problems is the disparity between what is expected in order to draw the bad/fake distinction for each role.spartaxoxo wrote: »Blood_again wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »All of these do non-zero damage. So, they would be real DPS by such a definition. There is basically no such thing as someone who isn't a DPS. They have no responsibility to the group.
I would dispute it.
Responsibility is about doing something for it, not just doing it randomly.
Anything that meets the definition of a thing, is that thing. That's why dictionary makers try to tailor definitions to be broad enough to encompass all examples of a thing, but also narrow enough to exclude things that don't count.
The problem with the "any non-zero amount" of damage definition is that includes a number of things that shouldn't fit.There is a problem with dps requirements. If we add any amount of dps to the "real DPS" definition, we momentarily put any learning player to the fake category, which is totally wrong.
Not really. The DPS checks in normal are in the basement. A vet dungeon isn't for new players, it's for vets. And I don't think it's a problem with asking people to think about their build and if they are able to complete vet content before queuing vet. Many of the ones doing so, queue knowing their character isn't ready for vet, but wanting a carry anyway.
Beyond that, plenty of people get labeled as fake tanks because they don't slot a taunt. But I've met plenty of fake tanks that thought they could damage things and maintain aggro. Such a player are also learning, but being called fakes anyway.
This is one of the points I tried to make in my post at the bottom of page 2. I see many people who draw the line between fake and bad dd as dealing any damage (at least one), but they simultaneously require a tank to use a taunt in order to avoid being labeled fake. These two things are not equivalent. If you want to endorse the former definition of a fake dd, you should also be more lenient in your definition of a fake tank. A tank that holds any amount of aggro, even by just running into battle first and attacking, regardless of whether or not they taunt, shouldn't be assumed to be fake but rather just bad. If you can't accept this delineation for tanks and continue to expect more (a taunt) to avoid labeling them as fake, then you should expect more from a dd as well in order to avoid labeling them as fake.Edited by Kallykat on September 19, 2023 11:30AM6 -
AvalonRanger✭✭✭✭✭Support mainMy opinion of Fake dd definition is...
1, 2DD player who can't kill Vet BanishingCell-2 last boss with real tank and real healer support
until 5th Deadroth show up IS FAKE DD.
2, Player who keep standing AoE like the target dummy training IS FAKE DD.
3, Player who doesn't have any of self defense technique, and wiped by lethal mech many times
IS FAKE DD.(except tank's or healer's failure )
4, Player who keep attacking meaningless mobs or dangerous mobs at the HallowStorms ground
and ignore Pike is FAKE DD.
Not just damage amount, skillful attack and evade, and must have good combat strategy mind set.Edited by AvalonRanger on September 19, 2023 2:53PMMy playing time Mon-Friday UTC13:00-16:00 [PC-NA] CP over2000 now.
I have [1Tough tank] [1StamSorc-DD] [1Necro-DD] [1Real Healer]
with [1Stam Blade].
But, I'm Tank main player. Recently I'm doing Healer.
2023/12/21
By the way...Dungeon-Meshi(One of Famous Japanese fantasy story comic book) got finale...
Good-bye "King of Monster Eater".
2024/08/23
Farewell Atsuko Tanaka...(-_-) I never forget epic acting for major Motoko Kusanagi.2 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Support mainForzaRammer wrote: »Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).
People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.
I doubt there is anyone who is only doing one dps in dungeons. They would have to just stand there doing nothing most of the time in which case they are probably a troll. Trolls in the GF are not what this thread is about.
In other words, thx for verifying the accuracy of my comment that a low dps damage dealer is still a damage dealer.
Have you read the comments from others on the negative side? Clearly “1 dps make it real” is what they are pushing2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DD mainForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).
People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.
I doubt there is anyone who is only doing one dps in dungeons. They would have to just stand there doing nothing most of the time in which case they are probably a troll. Trolls in the GF are not what this thread is about.
In other words, thx for verifying the accuracy of my comment that a low dps damage dealer is still a damage dealer.
Have you read the comments from others on the negative side? Clearly “1 dps make it real” is what they are pushing
Also, trolls fitting into the definition of a real DPS is precisely the problem with that definition. Just from a word smithing standpoint. It creates a situation where DPS have absolutely no expectations or responsibility to the group. Meanwhile, tanks and healers do have expectations or responsibility to the group. I don't find that particularly fair, tbh.This is one of the points I tried to make in my post at the bottom of page 2. I see many people who draw the line between fake and bad dd as dealing any damage (at least one), but they simultaneously require a tank to use a taunt in order to avoid being labeled fake. These two things are not equivalent. If you want to endorse the former definition of a fake dd, you should also be more lenient in your definition of a fake tank. A tank that holds any amount of aggro, even by just running into battle first and attacking, regardless of whether or not they taunt, shouldn't be assumed to be fake but rather just bad. If you can't accept this delineation for tanks and continue to expect more (a taunt) to avoid labeling them as fake, then you should expect more from a dd as well in order to avoid labeling them as fake.
Couldn't have said it better myself.Edited by spartaxoxo on September 19, 2023 6:54PM5 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).
People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.
I doubt there is anyone who is only doing one dps in dungeons. They would have to just stand there doing nothing most of the time in which case they are probably a troll. Trolls in the GF are not what this thread is about.
In other words, thx for verifying the accuracy of my comment that a low dps damage dealer is still a damage dealer.
Have you read the comments from others on the negative side? Clearly “1 dps make it real” is what they are pushing
I see no need to read every single comment made. However, if they do 1 DPS they are still dealing damage which makes them a damage dealer by definition. In reality, someone doing that little damage is a troll as it takes a lot of work to keep damage that low.
Most of the comments trying to define fake DPS are nothing more than describing what someone thinks is pitiful DPS but it is far from fake. They are just not very good, far from it. People who want to avoid such poor performers need to pre-form their group. The experiences I have had running with my guild are far superior to the best experience I had when I used to use the GF to get groups.
3 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Support mainForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).
People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.
I doubt there is anyone who is only doing one dps in dungeons. They would have to just stand there doing nothing most of the time in which case they are probably a troll. Trolls in the GF are not what this thread is about.
In other words, thx for verifying the accuracy of my comment that a low dps damage dealer is still a damage dealer.
Have you read the comments from others on the negative side? Clearly “1 dps make it real” is what they are pushing
I see no need to read every single comment made. However, if they do 1 DPS they are still dealing damage which makes them a damage dealer by definition. In reality, someone doing that little damage is a troll as it takes a lot of work to keep damage that low.
Most of the comments trying to define fake DPS are nothing more than describing what someone thinks is pitiful DPS but it is far from fake. They are just not very good, far from it. People who want to avoid such poor performers need to pre-form their group. The experiences I have had running with my guild are far superior to the best experience I had when I used to use the GF to get groups.
“Doing 1 dps make them real dd” is your definition of roles, this is not accepted by us on the affirmative side. This is the exact topic we are debating.
And our main counter to your definition is: such definition is fundamentally discriminatory against tanks, it is requiring tank to do what dd does, and more.
And we desire equality.
Edited by ForzaRammer on September 19, 2023 7:48PM3 -
Blood_again✭✭✭✭✭Main bothForzaRammer wrote: »Do we need to have a discussion about prerequisites of prerequisites is still prerequisites?
Let me use your analogy here, “johnny (dd) is getting paid for just moving his legs, we make the same money, why you require me (tank) to unload the truck on top of moving my legs?”
This is exactly what workplace discrimination looks like.
I can’t change the game design, it is way easier to make it fair by “requiring johnny to move his legs at least 3 times as much as i do”
I'll expand my analogy. If johny joined a team as a beer-bringer, he's responsibility is moving his legs. It is OK that he does just this.
If he moves his legs as fast as high-loaded you, he's a bad bringer. If he went in the opposite side because he didn't know where the beer is, if he fell and lost the beer, he's extremely bad. I would vote kick him from party for doing his job bad.
Still he's doing his job if he went for beer. He's not fake.
Setting the chair and smoking in the middle of encounter instead of going for beer makes him fake. Not his speed.
I see we are talking about the reward now. It is totally different topic and I agree that it is unfair in ESO. That is where the discrimination hides, not in roles.
Low dps and high dps DDs get the same reward in the end. Tank who kept 10 daedroths gets the same reward as 5k dps dd who hardly ever scratched the boss. Fake healer who slotted no heals and casted no heals gets the same reward that the tank who did all the hard job while self-healing. Soloing a dungeon brings the same reward as making it in 4-people group. It is frustrating and it is unfair.
I would like to see bonus rewards for doing more damage, for healing more health points, for mitigating more incoming damage, even for ressing group mates. Any kind of bonuses that reward additional work and push people to do their work better. That would make the game fair, not declaring bad dd as fake, not loading the simple roles with numbers and relations.
As for changing the game design, I would discuss if it is real to affect the design solutions as a user. But it is a sensitive question for many, so I won't.
BTW would you like to post your triad of role definitions, so we can compare and choose more fair, more simple, more obvious among them? It will stimulate the debates, I guess.0 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭i see it more as "bad dps" not "fake dps"
its hard to define a broad role such as DPS, because any dmg you deal your considered a dps, but if your doing 10k dps, your a bad dps (or a high dps tank)
tank and healer are easier to define, because its more obvious (tank at minimum needs to taunt the boss and not die, healer should be providing at least some heals and or buffs to the group)
if i use the dungeon queue i pretty much always play as a tank that can do upwards 8-10k dps, i know i wont die in a normal dungeon unless theres a mechanic snafu (lockdown mechanic and the rest of the group is dead)
i have played all 3 roles in normal dungeon queues, but i prefer being the tank because of faster queue times (i never fake roles either)plays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities1 -
Blood_again✭✭✭✭✭Main bothspartaxoxo wrote: »Blood_again wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »All of these do non-zero damage. So, they would be real DPS by such a definition. There is basically no such thing as someone who isn't a DPS. They have no responsibility to the group.
I would dispute it.
Responsibility is about doing something for it, not just doing it randomly.
Anything that meets the definition of a thing, is that thing. That's why dictionary makers try to tailor definitions to be broad enough to encompass all examples of a thing, but also narrow enough to exclude things that don't count.
The problem with the "any non-zero amount" of damage definition is that includes a number of things that shouldn't fit.There is a problem with dps requirements. If we add any amount of dps to the "real DPS" definition, we momentarily put any learning player to the fake category, which is totally wrong.
Not really. The DPS checks in normal are in the basement. A vet dungeon isn't for new players, it's for vets. And I don't think it's a problem with asking people to think about their build and if they are able to complete vet content before queuing vet. Many of the ones doing so, queue knowing their character isn't ready for vet, but wanting a carry anyway.
Beyond that, plenty of people get labeled as fake tanks because they don't slot a taunt. But I've met plenty of fake tanks that thought they could damage things and maintain aggro. Such a player are also learning, but being called fakes anyway.
If we talk about tanks who didn't slot taunt by mistake or by having little experience, I'm convinsed that they shouldn't be called as fakes. They are just bad when try to fulfill their role with wrong tools. I believe that they will learn, progress and do things better. I put some examples here at the end how people solved it on place.
The same I think about dds who try.
The opposite is about dds, who definitely knew their damage is inadequate to the encounter but joined it. That is fake dd, if you ask me.
Intension and reaction are the keys.
As for dps-checks.
While reading about them I found that people try to add it do the real dd definitions. I found it strange and that's why.
Any dps check means that group with definite dps will successfully pass the encounter. It sets a success as the only possible result of encounter with real players, totally ignoring the fact that run can be unsuccesfull although people do their work.
I see there are two strange PUG mind-sets that are grown by ESO powercreep and mixing newcomers with veterans.
1. Success or fake. Run should always be succesfull. It is so usual to get a group with overpowered players that PUG run can't be failed. If something goes wrong, that's because somebody doesn't do his job at all, fake, we need to blame and kick somebody.
2. Faking is OK. Again, it is so usual to get a group with overpowered players that a weak player can do absolutely nothing and group will succed the encounter. That brought us to selling runs, stealing achivements, fakes of all roles including dd. As a result, many fakes take as usual when other people work instead of them.
I would just remind, that the fact of failed run with weak group doesn't make people in this group fakes yet. People can do their fair work, but still fail due to mistakes, lack of knowledge, lack of experiense in moving, damaging and mechanics.
It is a fair learning curve for any role, including dd. Unfortunately this curve is often broken by encounter with veterans, who makes things visibly easy and tell them "you just need more dps to skip this mechanic, dude".
Again, failing dps check while doing their fair work doesn't make the dd fake. Failing boss fight by tank who got oneshot doesn't either. They learn, they make mistakes, they hopefully get better.
That's why I think that dps checks have no place in basic definition of the dd role. That's why dps numbers can't determine fake/non-fake border. Bad/medium/good - yes, probably, but not fake.2 -
Blood_again✭✭✭✭✭Main bothThis is one of the points I tried to make in my post at the bottom of page 2. I see many people who draw the line between fake and bad dd as dealing any damage (at least one), but they simultaneously require a tank to use a taunt in order to avoid being labeled fake. These two things are not equivalent. If you want to endorse the former definition of a fake dd, you should also be more lenient in your definition of a fake tank. A tank that holds any amount of aggro, even by just running into battle first and attacking, regardless of whether or not they taunt, shouldn't be assumed to be fake but rather just bad. If you can't accept this delineation for tanks and continue to expect more (a taunt) to avoid labeling them as fake, then you should expect more from a dd as well in order to avoid labeling them as fake.
I double it. You can check this definition of the basic tank role. Taunt is a tool, not the responsibility.
Tank fulfills his basic role while he works on turning the main sources of incoming damage on himself. It doesn't matter which way he does it.
Even when tank misses aggro, he may be bad but not fake if he works on taking it back. Fake tank just doesn't care.
Border case is when player already knew that his way hasn't been working for nine times. If he changes nothing and queues as tank again, probably this time he's faking. The same is about dd, who failed many times and runs the same encounter with no changes in tactic and build. Both are probably waiting for somebody who will do the job instead of them.0 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Support mainBlood_again wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Do we need to have a discussion about prerequisites of prerequisites is still prerequisites?
Let me use your analogy here, “johnny (dd) is getting paid for just moving his legs, we make the same money, why you require me (tank) to unload the truck on top of moving my legs?”
This is exactly what workplace discrimination looks like.
I can’t change the game design, it is way easier to make it fair by “requiring johnny to move his legs at least 3 times as much as i do”
I'll expand my analogy. If johny joined a team as a beer-bringer, he's responsibility is moving his legs. It is OK that he does just this.
If he moves his legs as fast as high-loaded you, he's a bad bringer. If he went in the opposite side because he didn't know where the beer is, if he fell and lost the beer, he's extremely bad. I would vote kick him from party for doing his job bad.
Still he's doing his job if he went for beer. He's not fake.
Setting the chair and smoking in the middle of encounter instead of going for beer makes him fake. Not his speed.
I see we are talking about the reward now. It is totally different topic and I agree that it is unfair in ESO. That is where the discrimination hides, not in roles.
Low dps and high dps DDs get the same reward in the end. Tank who kept 10 daedroths gets the same reward as 5k dps dd who hardly ever scratched the boss. Fake healer who slotted no heals and casted no heals gets the same reward that the tank who did all the hard job while self-healing. Soloing a dungeon brings the same reward as making it in 4-people group. It is frustrating and it is unfair.
I would like to see bonus rewards for doing more damage, for healing more health points, for mitigating more incoming damage, even for ressing group mates. Any kind of bonuses that reward additional work and push people to do their work better. That would make the game fair, not declaring bad dd as fake, not loading the simple roles with numbers and relations.
As for changing the game design, I would discuss if it is real to affect the design solutions as a user. But it is a sensitive question for many, so I won't.
BTW would you like to post your triad of role definitions, so we can compare and choose more fair, more simple, more obvious among them? It will stimulate the debates, I guess.
Your analogy:
Job responsibilities for position 1(me): move my legs and carry stuff
Job responsibilities for position 2(johnny): just move his legs
And now both position make same wage.
At least you support performance bonus. The thing is my base wage should already be higher than johnny’s, because of your job descriptions. Even if we both do the bare minimum, my work is still more thus I should make more.
Do you support a system where tank always get more base reward than dd?
And here are my definitions of the roles:
Tank: taunt, debuff and survive better than the best companion can do
Healer: heal and buff more than the best companion can do
Dd: do more damage than the best companion can do
I don’t believe the sets are disjoint, and I believe union of 3 is not the whole player base. I try to achieve equality across positions in my job descriptions, and same base wage for all is just simpler.1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DD mainBlood_again wrote: »Any dps check means that group with definite dps will successfully pass the encounter. It sets a success as the only possible result of encounter with real players, totally ignoring the fact that run can be unsuccesfull although people do their work.
That's not the case. Not that long ago, I actually had a Scalecaller run that went better with my companion on the first boss than with a DPS who had significantly higher DPS than me.And my DPS is good. This is because you have to kill the two bosses at around the same time. I targeted one boss and he targeted the other. And he wouldn't back-off his boss got to low health and help me with my boss. Instead he'd kill it as fast as possible. The end result was that we'd wipe because it one shots the group if they don't die close together. Once the healer left because it was obvious not everyone knew the mechs, the other dps left too. Then I told the tank we could do that fight by ourselves. And that's precisely what we did. Since I now had more control over the burn, we were able to finish it. At the 2nd boss, more people joined us and we finished without issue. Being able to pass DPS checks simply gives you the potential to clear a run, it doesn't mean you'll succeed.
Beyond that, damage check mechs are intentionally set quite low by the devs in regular vet. They are meant to be able to be completed by the average damage dealer, wearing basic gear. Just as heal checks are meant to get the healer to heal, damage checks are meant to get the damage dealer to do damage. Damage dealers who are barely able to hit them (but built in a way that they are capable) may fail them because they ran out of resources, got distracted, etc. I would still consider that a real DPS.
Damage checks don't require good gear. It doesn't require an amazing rotation. It doesn't require much from the DPS except actually being built to do significant damage. And doing significant damage is what sets DPS apart from the other roles, as there is always going to be incidental damage from tanks and healers.Edited by spartaxoxo on September 20, 2023 5:09AM0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).
People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.
I doubt there is anyone who is only doing one dps in dungeons. They would have to just stand there doing nothing most of the time in which case they are probably a troll. Trolls in the GF are not what this thread is about.
In other words, thx for verifying the accuracy of my comment that a low dps damage dealer is still a damage dealer.
Have you read the comments from others on the negative side? Clearly “1 dps make it real” is what they are pushing
I see no need to read every single comment made. However, if they do 1 DPS they are still dealing damage which makes them a damage dealer by definition. In reality, someone doing that little damage is a troll as it takes a lot of work to keep damage that low.
Most of the comments trying to define fake DPS are nothing more than describing what someone thinks is pitiful DPS but it is far from fake. They are just not very good, far from it. People who want to avoid such poor performers need to pre-form their group. The experiences I have had running with my guild are far superior to the best experience I had when I used to use the GF to get groups.
“Doing 1 dps make them real dd” is your definition of roles, this is not accepted by us on the affirmative side. This is the exact topic we are debating.
And our main counter to your definition is: such definition is fundamentally discriminatory against tanks, it is requiring tank to do what dd does, and more.
And we desire equality.
I see no reason to discuss a theoretical that will never happen unless the player is a troll and such a discussion will solve nothing.
3 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Support mainForzaRammer wrote: »Blood_again wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Do we need to have a discussion about prerequisites of prerequisites is still prerequisites?
Let me use your analogy here, “johnny (dd) is getting paid for just moving his legs, we make the same money, why you require me (tank) to unload the truck on top of moving my legs?”
This is exactly what workplace discrimination looks like.
I can’t change the game design, it is way easier to make it fair by “requiring johnny to move his legs at least 3 times as much as i do”
I'll expand my analogy. If johny joined a team as a beer-bringer, he's responsibility is moving his legs. It is OK that he does just this.
If he moves his legs as fast as high-loaded you, he's a bad bringer. If he went in the opposite side because he didn't know where the beer is, if he fell and lost the beer, he's extremely bad. I would vote kick him from party for doing his job bad.
Still he's doing his job if he went for beer. He's not fake.
Setting the chair and smoking in the middle of encounter instead of going for beer makes him fake. Not his speed.
I see we are talking about the reward now. It is totally different topic and I agree that it is unfair in ESO. That is where the discrimination hides, not in roles.
Low dps and high dps DDs get the same reward in the end. Tank who kept 10 daedroths gets the same reward as 5k dps dd who hardly ever scratched the boss. Fake healer who slotted no heals and casted no heals gets the same reward that the tank who did all the hard job while self-healing. Soloing a dungeon brings the same reward as making it in 4-people group. It is frustrating and it is unfair.
I would like to see bonus rewards for doing more damage, for healing more health points, for mitigating more incoming damage, even for ressing group mates. Any kind of bonuses that reward additional work and push people to do their work better. That would make the game fair, not declaring bad dd as fake, not loading the simple roles with numbers and relations.
As for changing the game design, I would discuss if it is real to affect the design solutions as a user. But it is a sensitive question for many, so I won't.
BTW would you like to post your triad of role definitions, so we can compare and choose more fair, more simple, more obvious among them? It will stimulate the debates, I guess.
Your analogy:
Job responsibilities for position 1(me): move my legs and carry stuff
Job responsibilities for position 2(johnny): just move his legs
And now both position make same wage.
At least you support performance bonus. The thing is my base wage should already be higher than johnny’s, because of your job descriptions. Even if we both do the bare minimum, my work is still more thus I should make more.
Do you support a system where tank always get more base reward than dd?
And here are my definitions of the roles:
Tank: taunt, debuff and survive better than the best companion can do
Healer: heal and buff more than the best companion can do
Dd: do more damage than the best companion can do
I don’t believe the sets are disjoint, and I believe union of 3 is not the whole player base. I try to achieve equality across positions in my job descriptions, and same base wage for all is just simpler.
But tanks do get substantially more rewards. Factoring in queue times, someone who queues as a tank can easily complete twice as many dungeons per hour compared to someone who queues as a DD. This disparity is why there are higher expectations of tanks. By queueing as a tank you're agreeing to take on a more demanding role in exchange for a faster queue.0 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Support mainthe1andonlyskwex wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Blood_again wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Do we need to have a discussion about prerequisites of prerequisites is still prerequisites?
Let me use your analogy here, “johnny (dd) is getting paid for just moving his legs, we make the same money, why you require me (tank) to unload the truck on top of moving my legs?”
This is exactly what workplace discrimination looks like.
I can’t change the game design, it is way easier to make it fair by “requiring johnny to move his legs at least 3 times as much as i do”
I'll expand my analogy. If johny joined a team as a beer-bringer, he's responsibility is moving his legs. It is OK that he does just this.
If he moves his legs as fast as high-loaded you, he's a bad bringer. If he went in the opposite side because he didn't know where the beer is, if he fell and lost the beer, he's extremely bad. I would vote kick him from party for doing his job bad.
Still he's doing his job if he went for beer. He's not fake.
Setting the chair and smoking in the middle of encounter instead of going for beer makes him fake. Not his speed.
I see we are talking about the reward now. It is totally different topic and I agree that it is unfair in ESO. That is where the discrimination hides, not in roles.
Low dps and high dps DDs get the same reward in the end. Tank who kept 10 daedroths gets the same reward as 5k dps dd who hardly ever scratched the boss. Fake healer who slotted no heals and casted no heals gets the same reward that the tank who did all the hard job while self-healing. Soloing a dungeon brings the same reward as making it in 4-people group. It is frustrating and it is unfair.
I would like to see bonus rewards for doing more damage, for healing more health points, for mitigating more incoming damage, even for ressing group mates. Any kind of bonuses that reward additional work and push people to do their work better. That would make the game fair, not declaring bad dd as fake, not loading the simple roles with numbers and relations.
As for changing the game design, I would discuss if it is real to affect the design solutions as a user. But it is a sensitive question for many, so I won't.
BTW would you like to post your triad of role definitions, so we can compare and choose more fair, more simple, more obvious among them? It will stimulate the debates, I guess.
Your analogy:
Job responsibilities for position 1(me): move my legs and carry stuff
Job responsibilities for position 2(johnny): just move his legs
And now both position make same wage.
At least you support performance bonus. The thing is my base wage should already be higher than johnny’s, because of your job descriptions. Even if we both do the bare minimum, my work is still more thus I should make more.
Do you support a system where tank always get more base reward than dd?
And here are my definitions of the roles:
Tank: taunt, debuff and survive better than the best companion can do
Healer: heal and buff more than the best companion can do
Dd: do more damage than the best companion can do
I don’t believe the sets are disjoint, and I believe union of 3 is not the whole player base. I try to achieve equality across positions in my job descriptions, and same base wage for all is just simpler.
But tanks do get substantially more rewards. Factoring in queue times, someone who queues as a tank can easily complete twice as many dungeons per hour compared to someone who queues as a DD. This disparity is why there are higher expectations of tanks. By queueing as a tank you're agreeing to take on a more demanding role in exchange for a faster queue.
Queueing time is basically the hiring process, faster hiring process is not compensation for doing more work on the job.
And “you got hired within 2 days of interview” is not justification for “you get extra duty while not getting paid a cent more”, at least not IRL.1 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Support mainForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).
People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.
I doubt there is anyone who is only doing one dps in dungeons. They would have to just stand there doing nothing most of the time in which case they are probably a troll. Trolls in the GF are not what this thread is about.
In other words, thx for verifying the accuracy of my comment that a low dps damage dealer is still a damage dealer.
Have you read the comments from others on the negative side? Clearly “1 dps make it real” is what they are pushing
I see no need to read every single comment made. However, if they do 1 DPS they are still dealing damage which makes them a damage dealer by definition. In reality, someone doing that little damage is a troll as it takes a lot of work to keep damage that low.
Most of the comments trying to define fake DPS are nothing more than describing what someone thinks is pitiful DPS but it is far from fake. They are just not very good, far from it. People who want to avoid such poor performers need to pre-form their group. The experiences I have had running with my guild are far superior to the best experience I had when I used to use the GF to get groups.
“Doing 1 dps make them real dd” is your definition of roles, this is not accepted by us on the affirmative side. This is the exact topic we are debating.
And our main counter to your definition is: such definition is fundamentally discriminatory against tanks, it is requiring tank to do what dd does, and more.
And we desire equality.
I see no reason to discuss a theoretical that will never happen unless the player is a troll and such a discussion will solve nothing.
Normalizing having expectations for people in dd role, normalizing kicking people who don’t contribute enough, treating people in different roles equally, there is plenty to gain for us on the affirmative side.3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DD mainForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).
People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.
I doubt there is anyone who is only doing one dps in dungeons. They would have to just stand there doing nothing most of the time in which case they are probably a troll. Trolls in the GF are not what this thread is about.
In other words, thx for verifying the accuracy of my comment that a low dps damage dealer is still a damage dealer.
Have you read the comments from others on the negative side? Clearly “1 dps make it real” is what they are pushing
I see no need to read every single comment made. However, if they do 1 DPS they are still dealing damage which makes them a damage dealer by definition. In reality, someone doing that little damage is a troll as it takes a lot of work to keep damage that low.
Most of the comments trying to define fake DPS are nothing more than describing what someone thinks is pitiful DPS but it is far from fake. They are just not very good, far from it. People who want to avoid such poor performers need to pre-form their group. The experiences I have had running with my guild are far superior to the best experience I had when I used to use the GF to get groups.
“Doing 1 dps make them real dd” is your definition of roles, this is not accepted by us on the affirmative side. This is the exact topic we are debating.
And our main counter to your definition is: such definition is fundamentally discriminatory against tanks, it is requiring tank to do what dd does, and more.
And we desire equality.
I see no reason to discuss a theoretical that will never happen unless the player is a troll and such a discussion will solve nothing.
Normalizing having expectations for people in dd role, normalizing kicking people who don’t contribute enough, treating people in different roles equally, there is plenty to gain for us on the affirmative side.
Add to that, I'd like to be able to discuss my experiences in the queue without being dragged into a semantical debate. If the playerbase had a normalized definition, maybe that wouldn't happen as often.
For me, fake role is someone who queues into a role they aren't built to fulfill. And that applies to any role.Edited by spartaxoxo on September 20, 2023 2:40PM3 -
PrincessOfThieves✭✭✭✭✭
✭DD mainspartaxoxo wrote: »For me, fake role is someone who queues into a role they aren't built to fulfill. And that applies to any role.
I agree. There is also a difference between fake and bad dds in my opinion. For example, someone with 45k hp (real example from group finder) is clearly not built for damage. Same with the infamous bow light attack spammers. They are not even trying to play their chosen role, they just hope that the team will be competent enough to carry them.
If you expect tanks and healers to have specific skills and builds, then the same should be expected from dds. For example, if we decide that a real tank should wear heavy armor and have a taunt and some form of crowd control, then a real dd has to use dps skills, use aoes for trash pulls and wear armor sets that are suited for dps. At the very minimum.
The idea that a dd is just someone who does more than 1 dps is deeply flawed because it is not possible to not deal damage in a dungeon, even if you're a healer or a tank. Even taunts deal damage.Edited by PrincessOfThieves on September 20, 2023 5:40PM3 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Main neitherthe1andonlyskwex wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Blood_again wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Do we need to have a discussion about prerequisites of prerequisites is still prerequisites?
Let me use your analogy here, “johnny (dd) is getting paid for just moving his legs, we make the same money, why you require me (tank) to unload the truck on top of moving my legs?”
This is exactly what workplace discrimination looks like.
I can’t change the game design, it is way easier to make it fair by “requiring johnny to move his legs at least 3 times as much as i do”
I'll expand my analogy. If johny joined a team as a beer-bringer, he's responsibility is moving his legs. It is OK that he does just this.
If he moves his legs as fast as high-loaded you, he's a bad bringer. If he went in the opposite side because he didn't know where the beer is, if he fell and lost the beer, he's extremely bad. I would vote kick him from party for doing his job bad.
Still he's doing his job if he went for beer. He's not fake.
Setting the chair and smoking in the middle of encounter instead of going for beer makes him fake. Not his speed.
I see we are talking about the reward now. It is totally different topic and I agree that it is unfair in ESO. That is where the discrimination hides, not in roles.
Low dps and high dps DDs get the same reward in the end. Tank who kept 10 daedroths gets the same reward as 5k dps dd who hardly ever scratched the boss. Fake healer who slotted no heals and casted no heals gets the same reward that the tank who did all the hard job while self-healing. Soloing a dungeon brings the same reward as making it in 4-people group. It is frustrating and it is unfair.
I would like to see bonus rewards for doing more damage, for healing more health points, for mitigating more incoming damage, even for ressing group mates. Any kind of bonuses that reward additional work and push people to do their work better. That would make the game fair, not declaring bad dd as fake, not loading the simple roles with numbers and relations.
As for changing the game design, I would discuss if it is real to affect the design solutions as a user. But it is a sensitive question for many, so I won't.
BTW would you like to post your triad of role definitions, so we can compare and choose more fair, more simple, more obvious among them? It will stimulate the debates, I guess.
Your analogy:
Job responsibilities for position 1(me): move my legs and carry stuff
Job responsibilities for position 2(johnny): just move his legs
And now both position make same wage.
At least you support performance bonus. The thing is my base wage should already be higher than johnny’s, because of your job descriptions. Even if we both do the bare minimum, my work is still more thus I should make more.
Do you support a system where tank always get more base reward than dd?
And here are my definitions of the roles:
Tank: taunt, debuff and survive better than the best companion can do
Healer: heal and buff more than the best companion can do
Dd: do more damage than the best companion can do
I don’t believe the sets are disjoint, and I believe union of 3 is not the whole player base. I try to achieve equality across positions in my job descriptions, and same base wage for all is just simpler.
But tanks do get substantially more rewards. Factoring in queue times, someone who queues as a tank can easily complete twice as many dungeons per hour compared to someone who queues as a DD. This disparity is why there are higher expectations of tanks. By queueing as a tank you're agreeing to take on a more demanding role in exchange for a faster queue.
Queuing time is a is because so few people want to do that job. The expectation is that you will do your job very well. The idea that you can get many more dungeons done is dubious because the chance of you ending up in a dungeon with an unprepared group is not insignificant. You then have 2 options. You can leave and sit on a penalty which is basically the same time a dps would wait to que or you can do your job and pick everyone up along the way, hoping to at least get a clear for all your effort.4 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Main neitherHonestly what constitutes a fake dps is pretty subjective. Personally i belive it is someone who is:
- completely aware that they are incapable of the content for which they que and are doing it intentionally.
- have no intention of doing their role well or contributing to the group.
- Are there with the expectation of being carried so they can obtain the rewards. Motifs, monster helms, purple jewlery ect
I dont think you can equate it simply to the damage someone puts out. That said it is undeniable that there is a huge discrepancy in the expectations of supports vs dps. How to quantify what makes a dps fake though really cant be done by numbers. A newbie who wants to learn my show up in a dungeon skill spamming simply because they dont know any better even at cp. I can tell you at 500ish cp i was still a trash panda but i wanted to learn. The problem here lies in the fact that it is hard to ascertain intention in this context.
One further thing worth noting is that sometimes unprepared dps end up in vet dungeons because they dont know they arent prepared for it. This is just the result of the massive discrepancies in difficulty from normal base game content to normal dlc, to vet base game, to vet dlc. I mean in normal falkreath you can still get 1 shot as a dps by the minotaurs.
Edited by boi_anachronism_ on September 20, 2023 8:41PM2
This discussion has been closed.