Fake dd definition and classification debate

Muizer

I'm kind of curious what exactly it means to "build for damage" in dungeons.

Particularly, does that involve sacrificing sustain, self heal and debuff abilities and not roll dodging out of damage because all of these reduce DPS. Does it involve trusting on support instead to cover all that while you focus on dealing damage?

Aislinna

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Aislinna wrote: »

I do not think you can have "fake" damage dealers, as everybody can deal damage.

Some characters may not have good gear sets or a decent rotation or know mechanics, or may only hold heavy attack or just light attack or could just be a new player, but they are dealing damage, just not enough for your liking. Call them bad if you must, but they are not "fake" as they are not pretending.

Do you believe tank and dd are disjoint sets?

And what you define as real tank?

I joined this discussion on "Fake DD Definition and Classification", so not sure why you are asking me about tanks. I gave my opinion on damage dealers. I haven't seen your opinion on the subject, so not really much to "debate". If you don't share a differing opinion, then I presume you agree with mine and the debate is over. If you are wanting to change the subject, then state your new subject opinion so it can be responded to. Sorry, but to me a discussion or debate requires good fath inputs and opinions from both people, not one person just trying to provoke another person,.

Additionally, I am only familiar with the term "disjoint sets" as it relates to mathematics, so not really sure what you are asking. But by a pure mathematical definition, anything a tank and DD have in common, i.e, class, automatically disqualifies them from being "disjointed sets".

heng14rwb17_ESO

The skill set of the players have drop so much.
Last time, a single player can play all 3 roles well.

Blood_again

Main both

Oznog666 wrote: »

As I am playing Healer, Tank and Damage Dealer I can tell you what I'm doing as tank and what I'm expecting from other tanks too: 40k or more health, taunting, moving the boss away from the group, crowd control - that means trying to bring all or most of the crowd to one place so the DD can destroy them much faster. Plus buffing the group, in my case with Ebon Armory and aggressive Horn and if possible debuffing the boss. And then, if theres still time left, I'm doing damage - not much but at around 10-15k/s.

BTW regarding healers: my healer is using for normal dungeons Winters Respite, this leaves a healing frost field at the ground. Sometimes people are thinking I'm using a frost staff, but it's just this healing frost, nothing else. In DLC dungeons I'm telling it always the group so they now that they can stand in this field.

And one more point: although one big part of the game is "play as you like it", there are very clear defined roles for dungeons and trials - Tank, Healer, Damage Dealer. If I would have some weird meta with 17k health, no taunt but thinking I can go as tank then this is not play as you like it, this is clearly a fake tank. And as already mentionend many times here and in other threads too: there are some or maybe a lot of poor damage dealer, doing not that much damage whysoever, but maybe they just need an advice how to play a DD. Because this is still missing in ESO: some sort of training room at the very beginning to explain every role.

Thank you for you answer.
If you check the thread, we are talking about fake/non-fake border. Keeping a group from taking main amount of damage was declared and discussed as a basics of the tank role. It meant that without it the tank is fake. OP asked if it is fair to set so much responsibilities on tank while tank also does some damage.

All your responsibilities that you personally take in your groups are great and makes you better tank. It is OK to expect it from other tanks.
Meanwile I think that tank without crowd control, 40k hp or even shield equipped is still non-fake tank if group members don't have boss and big foes in their faces. HP, taunt, shield are just tools to do your job - saving your group from taking that damage.
So once again, we are talking about the line where tank becomes fake tank or dd becomes fake dd. I guess there is no need to talk about buffing group and crowd control here. Well, unless you think that tank without crowd control is fake...

As for dds who just play bad and need some role tutorial - I totally agree with you. I guess roles and group tutorial would be just great for every beginner dungeoneer.

MidniteOwl1913

Support main

Katheriah wrote: »

For the people that say bad DD's aren't a real thing, have you never ran into a player that clearly expects a carry? Someone that can't be bothered to -for example- do anything more than spam light attacks?

Remember, for the normal queue you need to be at least level 10, then the higher you get the more dungeons you unlock until DLC content at level 45.

The ingame tutorial is bad, but not that bad. Some people are actively trying to not play the game and still want to get rewarded for it.

Honestly I don't think I have seen this, and if I have not often. I main a healer, and very often the DDs are lower level. SOmetimes they are very slow, they get one-shotted, but I've never had anyone just light attack. Even the ones that are clearly in over their heads usually keep trying.

No, when I see bad DD behavior it's almost always the speed runners, dragging trash and soloing bosses.

spartaxoxo

DD main

Muizer wrote: »

I'm kind of curious what exactly it means to "build for damage" in dungeons.

Particularly, does that involve sacrificing sustain, self heal and debuff abilities and not roll dodging out of damage because all of these reduce DPS. Does it involve trusting on support instead to cover all that while you focus on dealing damage?

Yes, a damage dealer's build should focus primarily on damage. It doesn't mean they need to play stupid, like standing in aoe. But if a player has a bunch of heals slotted and they are mostly just light attacking, that person's build isn't focused on damage.

spartaxoxo

DD main

Let's examine the definition that dealing any non-zero amount of damage makes someone and DPS?

If that's the case, the following things are real DPS by definition

Tanks
Healers
Some Armor Sets
Sorcerors and Wardens that afk with their pet active
Anyone built for doing significant damage

All of these do non-zero damage. So, they would be real DPS by such a definition. There is basically no such thing as someone who isn't a DPS. They have no responsibility to the group.

If we instead use the definition of "A character built to do significant enough damage to pass damage mechs in group content."

Then the following are DPS

Any character built for significant damage.

Under this definition, a player who can pass the DPS checks but is bad at the game (bad at mechs, low damage, etc) would be a bad DPS. And a fake DPS would be someone who cannot. The responsibility to the group they have is being able to do the DPS portions of a dungeon.

the1andonlyskwex

Support main

A "fake" is someone pretending to be a role they aren't in order to cheat the dungeon queue. Therefore, there aren't any fake DDs because waiting in the slowest line obviously isn't cheating the queue.

That said, bad DDs and people who aren't actually ready for vet content are their own separate (less common) problem.

ForzaRammer

Support main

Aislinna wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Aislinna wrote: »

I do not think you can have "fake" damage dealers, as everybody can deal damage.

Some characters may not have good gear sets or a decent rotation or know mechanics, or may only hold heavy attack or just light attack or could just be a new player, but they are dealing damage, just not enough for your liking. Call them bad if you must, but they are not "fake" as they are not pretending.

Do you believe tank and dd are disjoint sets?

And what you define as real tank?

I joined this discussion on "Fake DD Definition and Classification", so not sure why you are asking me about tanks. I gave my opinion on damage dealers. I haven't seen your opinion on the subject, so not really much to "debate". If you don't share a differing opinion, then I presume you agree with mine and the debate is over. If you are wanting to change the subject, then state your new subject opinion so it can be responded to. Sorry, but to me a discussion or debate requires good fath inputs and opinions from both people, not one person just trying to provoke another person,.

Additionally, I am only familiar with the term "disjoint sets" as it relates to mathematics, so not really sure what you are asking. But by a pure mathematical definition, anything a tank and DD have in common, i.e, class, automatically disqualifies them from being "disjointed sets".

1. I already stated very early I believe fake dd exist, and let me add “anyone who can’t out perform a companion is fake”
2. I also stated very early on “i would like people on the negative side define what real tank healer and dd is”
3. Define the duty of a tank is important because fair distribution of responsibility is important, otherwise you can simply give more to the tank while push the idea dd should do less
4. Disjoint is exactly what it means in mathematics term, in your opinion, can a person be both a tank and dd at the same time?

ForzaRammer

Support main

slt101880b14_ESO wrote: »

Fake Tank= can't/won't even taunt.
Bad Tank= Taunts, but can't take the damage..

Fake Healer= produces NO heals/group heals
Bad Healer= can heal, but not nearly enough..

Fake DD= N/A: anyone/everyone can/does do damage..
Bad DD= Does damage, but not nearly enough..

Bad dps is a problem, no doubt, but that's not because they are "fake". It's a matter of poor rotation, poor gear, low level, ect ect.
Queuing up as a tank knowing full well you can't/won't taunt and can't take a hit is replacing the tank role with a DD just so you can save 5 minutes on a queue. THAT is the very definition of a Fake Tank.

Again all taunt does damage, you are requiring tanks to straight up do more than dd

ForzaRammer

Support main

Blood_again wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

But the game doesn’t allow you to taunt without doing damage. Thus for anyone to satisfy your tank standards they have to do damage.

If i have to do task B, and i can’t do task B without task A, then i also have to do task A, my responsibility don’t change regardless of it’s explicitly stated or not.

Your statement is in the same category as “we just need you to have bachelors degree for this job, we don’t require you to have high school diploma”

Keep playing sofistics? Well, I expected a bit more from "debates". But why not

Your parallel with diploma is false, because using of taunt skills takes a moment while having diploma takes years.
You'd better compare it with loader job.
Would you say "Look, I have to move my legs to unload this lorry. Why don't you pay me for moving my legs too? I do a double job!"

While you're playing with tiny details, I see you're trying to say that tanks do too much. Wanna tanks do less then just taking the main damage out of group? What will be left? Standing and smiling?

There is nothing wrong with my analogy, you require dd to only to have “high school diploma” while you require tank to have “bachelor degree”, and you are telling me “but tank does not need high school diploma”.

And that’s fair distribution of task to you? And you don’t need to make it fair by giving tank even less. You can make it fair by requiring dd to do more.

Amottica

flizomica wrote: »

Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.

That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.

The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.

In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.

Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.

How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.

ForzaRammer

Support main

Oznog666 wrote: »

Blood_again wrote: »

While you're playing with tiny details, I see you're trying to say that tanks do too much. Wanna tanks do less then just taking the main damage out of group? What will be left? Standing and smiling?

As I am playing Healer, Tank and Damage Dealer I can tell you what I'm doing as tank and what I'm expecting from other tanks too: 40k or more health, taunting, moving the boss away from the group, crowd control - that means trying to bring all or most of the crowd to one place so the DD can destroy them much faster. Plus buffing the group, in my case with Ebon Armory and aggressive Horn and if possible debuffing the boss. And then, if theres still time left, I'm doing damage - not much but at around 10-15k/s.

BTW regarding healers: my healer is using for normal dungeons Winters Respite, this leaves a healing frost field at the ground. Sometimes people are thinking I'm using a frost staff, but it's just this healing frost, nothing else. In DLC dungeons I'm telling it always the group so they now that they can stand in this field.

And one more point: although one big part of the game is "play as you like it", there are very clear defined roles for dungeons and trials - Tank, Healer, Damage Dealer. If I would have some weird meta with 17k health, no taunt but thinking I can go as tank then this is not play as you like it, this is clearly a fake tank. And as already mentionend many times here and in other threads too: there are some or maybe a lot of poor damage dealer, doing not that much damage whysoever, but maybe they just need an advice how to play a DD. Because this is still missing in ESO: some sort of training room at the very beginning to explain every role.

Thx for you answer.

You can see the double standard already. “Play as you like it” is often not acceptable for tank role, this debate is about if “play as you like it” people in dd role should receive same treatment.

ForzaRammer

Support main

Amottica wrote: »

flizomica wrote: »

Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.

That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.

The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.

In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.

Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.

How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.

The debate is about establishing a fair definition and classification (for real dd tank and healer).

People on affirmative side do not agree that 1 dps make a person real dd.

Freilauftomate

Main both

@ForzaRammer Why do you say it's so important to define dd, tank and heal? It's pretty much self-explanatory. But it's not possible to write up some 100% accurate definition for everyone, and every situation. And it's not necessary.

The dungeon finder we have right now is a very simple (and still very buggy) tool to help new players find a group for a dungeon they have probably never done before. With simple rules. 1 player tanks, 2 players deal damage, one player heals. If this is not good enough for you, then please make your own group with your own rules. It's way faster and easier, and you can optimize your setup and talk about your goals before you start.

But don't promise 3 people you are willing to do something when you have no intention to do whatever you have promised. I think that's the definition of a liar/fake/fraud/impostor/pretender... And i believe that's the only kind of definition you are really looking for. Most people using the dungeon finder don't have a problem with unexperienced players, they have a problem with lying weasels.

Oznog666

Freilauftomate wrote: »

Most people using the dungeon finder don't have a problem with unexperienced players, they have a problem with lying weasels.

This is 100% THE point, guess the thread can be closed

Trier_Sero

Once in nAS I saw a dd with 43k hp without buffs. That's a fake dd.
Also I didn't vote on poll because I don't understand what those options mean (english is my 3rd language).

Muizer

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

I'm kind of curious what exactly it means to "build for damage" in dungeons.

Particularly, does that involve sacrificing sustain, self heal and debuff abilities and not roll dodging out of damage because all of these reduce DPS. Does it involve trusting on support instead to cover all that while you focus on dealing damage?

Yes, a damage dealer's build should focus primarily on damage. It doesn't mean they need to play stupid, like standing in aoe. But if a player has a bunch of heals slotted and they are mostly just light attacking, that person's build isn't focused on damage.

It would be helpful to have a list of buffs and debuffs that a DD should expect support roles to provide. That would make it easier for people like myself to adapt their build to group content.

Araneae6537

Support main

I don’t think there’s such a thing as “fake DD” but some people who don’t yet understand abilities or weapons that should only be used by certain roles in PvE (like sword and shield, wide use in PvP, but should only be used by tanks in PvE, although I suppose it would be fine in easy content so long as they don’t taunt) and people who don’t yet have the DPS to get through particular content. So long as players seem to be trying, and correct anything that may have been disruptive (like accidentally taunting), I would not call them fake or kick them and would give whatever the challenge was several tries until we succeeded or decided as a group that it wasn’t going to be possible.

I just want everyone in a group to be respectful of everyone else, which to me means honestly playing the role you queued for, unless the group agrees to otherwise, and neither rushing ahead or lagging behind to read or loot every last thing (again, speed runs and story runs are great but shouldn’t be the expectation on a random group).

Blood_again

Main both

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Blood_again wrote: »

Your parallel with diploma is false, because using of taunt skills takes a moment while having diploma takes years.
You'd better compare it with loader job.
Would you say "Look, I have to move my legs to unload this lorry. Why don't you pay me for moving my legs too? I do a double job!"

There is nothing wrong with my analogy, you require dd to only to have “high school diploma” while you require tank to have “bachelor degree”, and you are telling me “but tank does not need high school diploma”.

And that’s fair distribution of task to you? And you don’t need to make it fair by giving tank even less. You can make it fair by requiring dd to do more.

I insist that your analogy is false. You compare apples with oranges. Fulfilling tank role doesn't require any diploma.
Please, tell me why I should reject your false analogy twice? Just because you repeated it? Gonna try in one more time?

From tank I don't require anything but fair saving the group from main amount of damage. That is responsibility, not doing the damage.
Double check my analogy about loader. You require priviledges for you or higher responsibility for another role just because your legs move while you're working.
Do you think it would be more fair to remove damage from taunts? Wanna head on this initiative?

Wait, are you really trying to bet only on "tank do damage too" horse?
Sorry, you can't discredit my definitions through it. My definitions are still good, lackonic and fair. Three roles, three simple responsibilities that work in any game, not just in ESO.
If you want to prove it false, you have to find why simple doing less than X dps is a fake, not just bad. Good luck with it.

Dojohoda

Main both

Fake dd is a made up term to retaliate and distract against the many threads here calling out fake tanks.

Blood_again

Main both

spartaxoxo wrote: »

All of these do non-zero damage. So, they would be real DPS by such a definition. There is basically no such thing as someone who isn't a DPS. They have no responsibility to the group.

I would dispute it.
Responsibility is about doing something for it, not just doing it randomly.
Tank does something to protect the group, like taunts? He's not fake. He dies after it? Well, he's a bad tank but still not fake.
Heal cast something to restore some missed health of group? He's not fake.
Doing damage along doesn't turn them to DPS just because they didn't take their responsibility for it. How could it turn to "DPS have no responsibility" as a result? No, DPS keep their task independently of how much damage other roles did.

So fake DPS is somebody who went to group with no intension to do damage. He can lie dead despite ressing him. He can dance around doing nothing. He can always run somewhere while group is clearing trash. That is faking, ignoring their responsibilities in encounter.
DPS who was ressurected and runs into a battle just to die again may act silly, but he's not a fake if you ask me. He's just bad at it.

There is a problem with dps requirements. If we add any amount of dps to the "real DPS" definition, we momentarily put any learning player to the fake category, which is totally wrong.
People who learn the ropes and people who behave toxic and cheat with the grouping system should never be placed on one shelf, because they are different. If community somewhy call newcomers fakes from start, I guess they will probably grow to experienced fakes instead of getting better in their roles.

Mizael

DD main

I'd go with "someone that is doing very low damage ~20%-25%~ AND neither doing much else for buffs or heal". Most of the times they are newbies or noobs. The really frustating part is that most of the time wil be carpets and it will take ages to finish a dungeon or something. One of the main reason i avoid doing support wirh randoms

pelle412

Support main

There is no such thing as a fake DD. There is only DDs that have taken an interest in learning how to play a DD and then there are those who have not. ESO is advertised as a "play as you want" game. When you first start doing overland quests, this really is true. You can succeed playing as you want. In group content however, this generally does not work (unless your version of play as you want is semi-workable). There are no resources in game that teaches you how to play a role. You have to have the innate curiosity to ask such questions and find the resources. Some players do not have this level of curiousity at all, hence they do not learn how to play at a level where they can operate as a member of a group.

This is an inherent flaw of the game. In competing games such as WoW, each dungeon has a journal where you can learn from written information what each encounter does. ESO has nothing like that. Most games also has DPS meters that tell you in black and white how good or bad your damage is. ESO does not have that (except via optional addons).

So to the question at hand, you can classify DDs as either they have taken the time and interest to learn to play their class at a basic level or those who have not.

Aislinna

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Aislinna wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Aislinna wrote: »

I do not think you can have "fake" damage dealers, as everybody can deal damage.

Some characters may not have good gear sets or a decent rotation or know mechanics, or may only hold heavy attack or just light attack or could just be a new player, but they are dealing damage, just not enough for your liking. Call them bad if you must, but they are not "fake" as they are not pretending.

Do you believe tank and dd are disjoint sets?

And what you define as real tank?

I joined this discussion on "Fake DD Definition and Classification", so not sure why you are asking me about tanks. I gave my opinion on damage dealers. I haven't seen your opinion on the subject, so not really much to "debate". If you don't share a differing opinion, then I presume you agree with mine and the debate is over. If you are wanting to change the subject, then state your new subject opinion so it can be responded to. Sorry, but to me a discussion or debate requires good fath inputs and opinions from both people, not one person just trying to provoke another person,.

Additionally, I am only familiar with the term "disjoint sets" as it relates to mathematics, so not really sure what you are asking. But by a pure mathematical definition, anything a tank and DD have in common, i.e, class, automatically disqualifies them from being "disjointed sets".

1. I already stated very early I believe fake dd exist, and let me add “anyone who can’t out perform a companion is fake”
2. I also stated very early on “i would like people on the negative side define what real tank healer and dd is”
3. Define the duty of a tank is important because fair distribution of responsibility is important, otherwise you can simply give more to the tank while push the idea dd should do less
4. Disjoint is exactly what it means in mathematics term, in your opinion, can a person be both a tank and dd at the same time?

Apologies, I missed where you said that fake DDs exist and your reasoning for it. I also missed where you defined your version of the roles. Disjoint sets means having nothing in common, and I answered that. Good luck.

ForzaRammer

Support main

Blood_again wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Blood_again wrote: »

Your parallel with diploma is false, because using of taunt skills takes a moment while having diploma takes years.
You'd better compare it with loader job.
Would you say "Look, I have to move my legs to unload this lorry. Why don't you pay me for moving my legs too? I do a double job!"

There is nothing wrong with my analogy, you require dd to only to have “high school diploma” while you require tank to have “bachelor degree”, and you are telling me “but tank does not need high school diploma”.

And that’s fair distribution of task to you? And you don’t need to make it fair by giving tank even less. You can make it fair by requiring dd to do more.

I insist that your analogy is false. You compare apples with oranges. Fulfilling tank role doesn't require any diploma.
Please, tell me why I should reject your false analogy twice? Just because you repeated it? Gonna try in one more time?

From tank I don't require anything but fair saving the group from main amount of damage. That is responsibility, not doing the damage.
Double check my analogy about loader. You require priviledges for you or higher responsibility for another role just because your legs move while you're working.
Do you think it would be more fair to remove damage from taunts? Wanna head on this initiative?

Wait, are you really trying to bet only on "tank do damage too" horse?
Sorry, you can't discredit my definitions through it. My definitions are still good, lackonic and fair. Three roles, three simple responsibilities that work in any game, not just in ESO.
If you want to prove it false, you have to find why simple doing less than X dps is a fake, not just bad. Good luck with it.

Do we need to have a discussion about prerequisites of prerequisites is still prerequisites?

Let me use your analogy here, “johnny (dd) is getting paid for just moving his legs, we make the same money, why you require me (tank) to unload the truck on top of moving my legs?”

This is exactly what workplace discrimination looks like.

I can’t change the game design, it is way easier to make it fair by “requiring johnny to move his legs at least 3 times as much as i do”

ForzaRammer

Support main

pelle412 wrote: »

There is no such thing as a fake DD. There is only DDs that have taken an interest in learning how to play a DD and then there are those who have not. ESO is advertised as a "play as you want" game. When you first start doing overland quests, this really is true. You can succeed playing as you want. In group content however, this generally does not work (unless your version of play as you want is semi-workable). There are no resources in game that teaches you how to play a role. You have to have the innate curiosity to ask such questions and find the resources. Some players do not have this level of curiousity at all, hence they do not learn how to play at a level where they can operate as a member of a group.

This is an inherent flaw of the game. In competing games such as WoW, each dungeon has a journal where you can learn from written information what each encounter does. ESO has nothing like that. Most games also has DPS meters that tell you in black and white how good or bad your damage is. ESO does not have that (except via optional addons).

So to the question at hand, you can classify DDs as either they have taken the time and interest to learn to play their class at a basic level or those who have not.

“Play the way you want” apply to poeple self label as dd but not apply to people self label as support?

Basically segregation and unfair treatment?

ForzaRammer

Support main

Freilauftomate wrote: »

@ForzaRammer Why do you say it's so important to define dd, tank and heal? It's pretty much self-explanatory. But it's not possible to write up some 100% accurate definition for everyone, and every situation. And it's not necessary.

The dungeon finder we have right now is a very simple (and still very buggy) tool to help new players find a group for a dungeon they have probably never done before. With simple rules. 1 player tanks, 2 players deal damage, one player heals. If this is not good enough for you, then please make your own group with your own rules. It's way faster and easier, and you can optimize your setup and talk about your goals before you start.

But don't promise 3 people you are willing to do something when you have no intention to do whatever you have promised. I think that's the definition of a liar/fake/fraud/impostor/pretender... And i believe that's the only kind of definition you are really looking for. Most people using the dungeon finder don't have a problem with unexperienced players, they have a problem with lying weasels.

It’s very important, because people have different idea on how responsibilities should be distributed, as you see in the comments. And this debate is to figure out what is fair.

Why should i leave my job if a coworker is expecting me to do bunch stuff, while the guy does bare minimum and make my working hours longer, while collecting the same paycheque as me.

Of course i would complain to HR, ask for changes in the workplace culture so people are held responsible.

I have problems with all the “lying weasels”, fake tank healer or dd, not just some of them.

valenwood_vegan

Just thought I'd pop in to say how many awesome premade groups I've formed / joined with all sorts of players with unique builds and varying skill levels, and how much fun we've had doing dungeons while this thread has been active. Good luck!

ForzaRammer

Support main

Dojohoda wrote: »

Fake dd is a made up term to retaliate and distract against the many threads here calling out fake tanks.

Am not sure about that, i am one of the early adopters, even on my old forum account, and i always play an actual tank and bring trial setups.

I been complaining and kicking fake dd before i even adopted the term.