Heavy Attacks are no mistake, they are the right step for inclusion

Soarora · April 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

If you can hold left click you can hold right click. Seriously, what’s stopping people from trying to tank? It’d be a win-win… more tanks and don’t have to worry about HA balance. Tanks don’t weave and their rotation is slow while still having mechanics to do. It’s not for everyone but it is an option. Even if HA were to be absolutely obliterated (which it is not currently) there are other options.

Because that’s not what people want to do.
Also repetitive injury’s and things like carpal tunnel the click click click click is what caused these injuries for many people and doing those fast motions are painful and not possible for many people versus slow motions.

You may want to look at some of the tests if these nerfs go through heavy attack will pretty much be useless for many of us.

I don’t want to Tank they get bullied even more than dps. I want to build a character for solo content and play it as much as possible like a real elder scrolls game and use that character in group settings with my small guild.

Not everyone had the same goals / health situations and reasons for doing things. Nirn does not revolve around you.

What click click click there’s no LAs in tanking. Tanks that taunt and stay alive don’t get attacked except by the same people who would be bullying you as a dps. Don’t knock it until you try it. And in terms of solo content, outside of dps checks, it doesn’t matter if you do 50k or 1k DPS. Especially in overland. I mean I kill things on my tank in overland and I do like 5k dps maximum. It’s actually more enjoyable seeing the mechanics of enemies while not worrying about dying. You don’t have to insult me, I’m genuinely giving tanking as an option for people (not specifically you, anyone) who are worried about accessibility when they can’t do a quick rotation.

Agenericname wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

If you can hold left click you can hold right click. Seriously, what’s stopping people from trying to tank? It’d be a win-win… more tanks and don’t have to worry about HA balance. Tanks don’t weave and their rotation is slow while still having mechanics to do. It’s not for everyone but it is an option. Even if HA were to be absolutely obliterated (which it is not currently) there are other options.

Tanks typically have fewer CPM than DDs, but they do bar swap a lot, which has been cited as one of the issues with 2 bar builds numerous times.

You could run a lot of content with a very basic tank that didnt need to, but there is a point where you want the utility of the back bar buffs, or front barring Master or Vateshran and using the back bar to proc the 2nd set.

Personally, I dont think that the nerf to Empower will be as impactful as some think. Its a nerf for sure, but I wouldnt rule it out as a viable option.

One of the issues, not all of the issues. If people can’t barswap there’s one-bar non-HA which should be buffed damage-wise (without buffing HA) and also just how you set up your bars. For veteran dungeon PUGs I use my backbar for trash and my frontbar for bosses primarily. If I put my major resolve on my frontbar I’d barely have to barswap at all. And now you can barswap through block so if there’s a ping issue you won’t get wrecked for timing the swap wrong.

Billium813 · April 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

Ok, I wanted to get a Baseline for this conversation from live to showcase where this truly stands from a damage perspective for oaken heavy builds.

I took my sorc build. Removed ALL gear except the lightning staff and oakensoul. Precise staff, thief mundus active.
I kept my skill slotted, but did not cast a single skill. No pets, no dots, no aoes.

I ONLY held down the heavy attack button for the entire parse.

On a Trial dummy, just holding the heavy attack button with zero sets equipped. No storm master, no sergeants bonus.
24.9K DPS

So, with basically nothing on, a player can hit just under 25K dps by literally just holding heavy attacks. No skills, no gear.

There is no way a player, of any capacity, cannot hit 50K with gear equipped doing exactly the same thing. Just holding heavies, no skills used.

And that only goes up, just by adding cast the pets and having them out. Not even using their active skills. I actually already know that parse, it is 70K. 70K dps but having the pets out, with storm and sergeants, and only holding heavy attacks the entire parse.

So, let's go back to that 24.9K baseline parse. The only thing from the patch that impacts that is the Empower nerf.
Say a heavy does 10K damage. On live, with empower, it would do 18K, on PTS it would do 17K, or, as mentioned, a 6% damage decrease.

So, assuming that 24.9K dps parse was 100% only heavy attack damage (I have a shock enchant on so it is not), a 6% DPs loss from 24.9K is 23.4K DPS on PTS.

Or a loss of a whole 1.5K DPS. But, that is the absolute worst case because of the shock enchant.

This is not going to impact anyone in any meaningful way. It just isn't.

My testing is on a 3mil dummy (just to keep things simple), but it's still useful for comparisons.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/629658/comparing-heavy-attacks

> On a Trial dummy, just holding the heavy attack button with zero sets equipped. No storm master, no sergeants bonus.
24.9K DPS. So, with basically nothing on, a player can hit just under 25K dps by literally just holding heavy attacks. No skills, no gear.

ya... I support HA builds, I really do. I don't feel like people believe me, but I like players having options and I see HA builds as just another playstyle, if ZOS would cater to them correctly. I want them to be viable!

That being said, if there is ONE THING I just can't come to grips with is the insane resource drain vs damage issue. I want HA builds to put up numbers and be viable.... but I also feel like no build should be able to put up such numbers while draining absolutely NO resources what-so-ever. I'm not sure how to balance that out though. The damage has to come from somewhere....

In my opinion, I think the 2H Follow Up passive is the standard that ZOS should move HA builds towards. What if HA damage could buff Skill damage for a short duration? Something to make HA damage 1 piece of a puzzle, rather than the whole thing. Something to incentivize different HA rotations and gameplay, rather than simply making HA damage itself more/less. Idk.

Marcus684 · April 2023

Billium813 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Ok, I wanted to get a Baseline for this conversation from live to showcase where this truly stands from a damage perspective for oaken heavy builds.

I took my sorc build. Removed ALL gear except the lightning staff and oakensoul. Precise staff, thief mundus active.
I kept my skill slotted, but did not cast a single skill. No pets, no dots, no aoes.

I ONLY held down the heavy attack button for the entire parse.

On a Trial dummy, just holding the heavy attack button with zero sets equipped. No storm master, no sergeants bonus.
24.9K DPS

So, with basically nothing on, a player can hit just under 25K dps by literally just holding heavy attacks. No skills, no gear.

There is no way a player, of any capacity, cannot hit 50K with gear equipped doing exactly the same thing. Just holding heavies, no skills used.

And that only goes up, just by adding cast the pets and having them out. Not even using their active skills. I actually already know that parse, it is 70K. 70K dps but having the pets out, with storm and sergeants, and only holding heavy attacks the entire parse.

So, let's go back to that 24.9K baseline parse. The only thing from the patch that impacts that is the Empower nerf.
Say a heavy does 10K damage. On live, with empower, it would do 18K, on PTS it would do 17K, or, as mentioned, a 6% damage decrease.

So, assuming that 24.9K dps parse was 100% only heavy attack damage (I have a shock enchant on so it is not), a 6% DPs loss from 24.9K is 23.4K DPS on PTS.

Or a loss of a whole 1.5K DPS. But, that is the absolute worst case because of the shock enchant.

This is not going to impact anyone in any meaningful way. It just isn't.

My testing is on a 3mil dummy (just to keep things simple), but it's still useful for comparisons.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/629658/comparing-heavy-attacks

> On a Trial dummy, just holding the heavy attack button with zero sets equipped. No storm master, no sergeants bonus.
24.9K DPS. So, with basically nothing on, a player can hit just under 25K dps by literally just holding heavy attacks. No skills, no gear.

ya... I support HA builds, I really do. I don't feel like people believe me, but I like players having options and I see HA builds as just another playstyle, if ZOS would cater to them correctly. I want them to be viable!

That being said, if there is ONE THING I just can't come to grips with is the insane resource drain vs damage issue. I want HA builds to put up numbers and be viable.... but I also feel like no build should be able to put up such numbers while draining absolutely NO resources what-so-ever. I'm not sure how to balance that out though. The damage has to come from somewhere....

In my opinion, I think the 2H Follow Up passive is the standard that ZOS should move HA builds towards. What if HA damage could buff Skill damage for a short duration? Something to make HA damage 1 piece of a puzzle, rather than the whole thing. Something to incentivize different HA rotations and gameplay, rather than simply making HA damage itself more/less. Idk.

Eh, I don't see sustain as an "insane" issue. The only PvEers I see that really pay close attention to sustain are those trying to eke out every last ounce of damage at the expense of everything else, including sustain. The rest of us just throw in an occasional heavy attack, slot a sustain skill, or chug a resource pot if we run low.

The lack of worry about sustain for HA builds just goes along with the reduced effort nature of the build. For those of us with varying degrees of accessibility issues we get to participate in content formerly unavailable to us, while others just like the lower APM and find that content more fun if we have to put forth less effort, with the tradeoff of lower damage output.

As a dedicated Oakensoul user I'm fine with this small nerf to my damage. While oakenbuilds were proven to put out less damage than 2-bar builds, the difference could be fairly small, so this nerf should give the haters some satisfaction and give them less reason to complain and fling insults. I'm not gonna bet on it though.

ADarklore · April 2023

I think the problem most people forget is that to make a solid, high damage HA Oakensoul build, you need the RIGHT GEAR to go along with it. Most of the people who NEED Oakensoul to enjoy the game and complete content probably don't even have this gear. It wouldn't surprise me if many of these 'high damage' Oakensoul players keep running it for the sole purpose of trying to get it nerfed because of their attitude towards it. Figuring that if they keep complaining while making it seem overused, that ZOS would finally nerf it, because it's what they typically do when something is overused. Which actually worked because they have nerfed Empower and a HA gear set. As an Oakensoul player, neither of these nerfs bother me because I don't run that set nor run a HA build... Oakensoul works with many other sets, which is what bugs me about this whole debate. It's not OAKENSOUL that's the problem, it's the HA "meta" that players keep harping about.

jaws343 · April 2023

ADarklore wrote: »

I think the problem most people forget is that to make a solid, high damage HA Oakensoul build, you need the RIGHT GEAR to go along with it. Most of the people who NEED Oakensoul to enjoy the game and complete content probably don't even have this gear. It wouldn't surprise me if many of these 'high damage' Oakensoul players keep running it for the sole purpose of trying to get it nerfed because of their attitude towards it. Figuring that if they keep complaining while making it seem overused, that ZOS would finally nerf it, because it's what they typically do when something is overused. Which actually worked because they have nerfed Empower and a HA gear set. As an Oakensoul player, neither of these nerfs bother me because I don't run that set nor run a HA build... Oakensoul works with many other sets, which is what bugs me about this whole debate. It's not OAKENSOUL that's the problem, it's the HA "meta" that players keep harping about.

If you are running oakensoul but not running the meta heavy attack sets, this nerf is fairly inconsequential since the only nerf that effects only oakensoul is empower and that is just 6% off DPS of only the heavy attack damage.

If you don't run a heavy attack build but run oakensoul, nothing has changed.

ACamaroGuy · April 2023

joebenz wrote: »

I like Oakensoul heavy build and i'm not disabled. Believe it or not but many don't like it because it is boring. What they call boring i call it "simple" and i like simplicity.

Now how about everyone stop [snip] about it for once? "Oh look it's a heavy build, they doing too much damage, NERF IT, ZOS, NERF IT NAO!"
For once we have a build that doesn't require to be a master typist to use and be like "Do you see those skills i have? Look how fast i'm pressing that attack! I'm so skillful i can do vet trials with one hand!"

But when a simple build gets the same numbers as them Ooooooh LAWD all hell breaks loose and they storm the forums for a NERF [snip]

[edited for baiting and profanity]

I don't see why the Oakensoul HA build is a big deal. I actually came back to the game after U35 killed my Templar dps. I now play a MagCro dps HA. Nerf the HA and I'm gone again. Why not just up the DPS of the two bar players so they feel better about themselves and their play style? The one bar build has limits that suck. Veteran Cloudrest or normal Cloudrest...bar swap mechanic. There is one I can think of right off hand.

Soarora · April 2023

ACamaroGuy wrote: »

joebenz wrote: »

I like Oakensoul heavy build and i'm not disabled. Believe it or not but many don't like it because it is boring. What they call boring i call it "simple" and i like simplicity.

Now how about everyone stop [snip] about it for once? "Oh look it's a heavy build, they doing too much damage, NERF IT, ZOS, NERF IT NAO!"
For once we have a build that doesn't require to be a master typist to use and be like "Do you see those skills i have? Look how fast i'm pressing that attack! I'm so skillful i can do vet trials with one hand!"

But when a simple build gets the same numbers as them Ooooooh LAWD all hell breaks loose and they storm the forums for a NERF [snip]

[edited for baiting and profanity]

I don't see why the Oakensoul HA build is a big deal. I actually came back to the game after U35 killed my Templar dps. I now play a MagCro dps HA. Nerf the HA and I'm gone again. Why not just up the DPS of the two bar players so they feel better about themselves and their play style? The one bar build has limits that suck. Veteran Cloudrest or normal Cloudrest...bar swap mechanic. There is one I can think of right off hand.

The problem is that it's an objectively easier build than a traditional build but has been completing dungeon and trial trifectas. Buffing traditional builds just makes endgame feel like it has even less worth. Also you can do cloudrest with oakensoul.

Ender1310 · June 2023

I agree with op. Casuals, or disabled player can still push content, and players that like to weapon swap, can still chase elite numbers. I think only elitists would be against this, people that want to feel special, like they are the only ones that can access the content.

M0ntie · June 2023

What I’m seeing (doing a lot of vet trials and nearly all HMs) is exactly ZoS’s intent of making the game more accessible. People not comfortable with 2 bar builds can have fun with their friends doing vet trials and they couldn’t before.
Looking at the logs for most top scores I am NOT seeing mostly Oaken sorcs.
It is also a myth that chucking on an Oaken sorc build gets u 100k. I can hit 100k on the dummy with my DK 2 bar, but only 80k with my Oaken sorc. Exactly as it should be. 80k gets you through most content (including vet trials) but if I use a 2h build I do a bit more damage.

M0ntie · June 2023

Ender1310 wrote: »

I agree with op. Casuals, or disabled player can still push content, and players that like to weapon swap, can still chase elite numbers. I think only elitists would be against this, people that want to feel special, like they are the only ones that can access the content.

I’d say it is only people who THINK they are elite, but actually aren’t are the ones complaining. The true very top players hit harder with their perfect rotations and LA weaving is fully optimised groups. As they should!
It’s those who just think they are elite but can’t out dps and Oaken sorc who are whinging.