Heavy Attacks are no mistake, they are the right step for inclusion

LunaFlora

Gadamlub14_ESO wrote: »

What’s the point of an mmo or a game in general if you can get through the majority of content by holding down a single button? It seems even more cheap than a permanent tgm in an elder scrolls game.

to have fun

The_Oakster

Lumenn wrote: »

...One still has to have the right skills, the right food, the right gear, still have the right rotation (even if it's simpler) to do less dmg than an optimal 2bar build...

As an habitual "must have that God Mode build/builds build/parses 25k/cries" type of player I can confirm that no amount of kit or build replaces the skills needed to nudge the top figures possible

axi

Quethrosar wrote: »

i don't understand why this is a thing this month. these 2 sets have been in the game for years, they are from base dungeons.
oakensoul has been around for a year abouts.

you can make a HA build without oakensoul with 2 bars. It's actually a bit on the funner side.

Oakensoul was changed recently.

danno8

Auldwulfe wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

I wanted to see what all the drama was about so i tried the oakensorc on an atro dummy, only gave me 70k. So seems obvious to me that some experienced raiders are hopping on the build and making it work to higher numbers. I have no intention of modifying anything on it to give me more dps, its just novelty to me i prefer another style of play myself.

Exactly. Despite repeated claims of slapping on one ring, placing a book on one button and going afk to do "more or equal" dmg, it just isn't so and those who try it realize that just as you did.

One still has to have the right skills, the right food, the right gear, still have the right rotation (even if it's simpler) to do less dmg than an optimal 2bar build. You also tend to have to follow mechanics a bit more as it's a little harder to just burn everything down and heaven help you if you actually have to block and restart your HA. Its great for my solo character (which used a HA build before oakensoul due to my arthritis) but on good days(when my hands don't hurt so much) I can still do better with (insert the current 2bar meta) and we burn everything. It's great as even when my hands were more manageable I always hated the finger waltz and wished HA were more viable. (I never wanted anything nerfed, just wanted another path to do top end content) besides, I personally think it looks better. Optimal 2bar rotations just look...janky to me. HA is a bit smoother in my opinion.

I personally actually hate it as a solo build.

My Oaken build can hit 78K (could go higher but I run crit surge instead of another dot to add some semblance of self survival)
My solo build hits 55K unsupported.

I much prefer running my solo build in content without a dedicated healer, because it is built to survive and deal damage. The oaken build is incredibly flimsy without a healer, and honestly, not worth the hassle in soloing content. Or even in doing harder vet trial/dungeon content with inexperienced groups. I'd never run the oaken build in dungeon finder for example.

So while I think the DPS is nice, and it does make a few fights a bit more manageable here and there, overall, I think the survivability of wearing the ring is incredibly overblown.

All that to say, oakensoul is fine where it is. It was only a problem when it was released due to Major Heroism, which allowed players to have 100% uptime on certain ultimate in both PVE and PVP. With Minor Heroism, that is not really a problem.

That's been my experience, - I run a double lightning attack sorc - using both bars, but right now, they are identical --- Crit Surge, Magelight for empower, and the 3 pet skills --- both bars, on an Imperial with Sergeant's Mail and Order's Wrath, along with Slime Craw -- I get the same DPS, and am FAR MORE survivable than I was, with Oakensoul, as the 60% crit means I am getting one every second..... even with heavy attacks, as the healing has a chance to proc on every pulse, I am regenerating 3300 health a second .....

I tend to die more often WITH Oakensoul, as I have to remember to heal more..... and with Crit Surge having a 33 second uptime, and Magelight only needing every 10 seconds..... it's a much more simple rotation than Oakensoul..... I really only need Daedric prey on large things... nothing else lasts long enough to bother with it.

Auldwulfe

Where are you getting the added survivability from -- Ring of the Pale Order? A shielding enchant on the back bar?

Being an Imperial with the additional 2K health, 2K stamina, and undaunted passives, plus the equivalent of 6600 health regen, due to crits.

Auldwulfe

jaws343 wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

I wanted to see what all the drama was about so i tried the oakensorc on an atro dummy, only gave me 70k. So seems obvious to me that some experienced raiders are hopping on the build and making it work to higher numbers. I have no intention of modifying anything on it to give me more dps, its just novelty to me i prefer another style of play myself.

Exactly. Despite repeated claims of slapping on one ring, placing a book on one button and going afk to do "more or equal" dmg, it just isn't so and those who try it realize that just as you did.

One still has to have the right skills, the right food, the right gear, still have the right rotation (even if it's simpler) to do less dmg than an optimal 2bar build. You also tend to have to follow mechanics a bit more as it's a little harder to just burn everything down and heaven help you if you actually have to block and restart your HA. Its great for my solo character (which used a HA build before oakensoul due to my arthritis) but on good days(when my hands don't hurt so much) I can still do better with (insert the current 2bar meta) and we burn everything. It's great as even when my hands were more manageable I always hated the finger waltz and wished HA were more viable. (I never wanted anything nerfed, just wanted another path to do top end content) besides, I personally think it looks better. Optimal 2bar rotations just look...janky to me. HA is a bit smoother in my opinion.

I personally actually hate it as a solo build.

My Oaken build can hit 78K (could go higher but I run crit surge instead of another dot to add some semblance of self survival)
My solo build hits 55K unsupported.

I much prefer running my solo build in content without a dedicated healer, because it is built to survive and deal damage. The oaken build is incredibly flimsy without a healer, and honestly, not worth the hassle in soloing content. Or even in doing harder vet trial/dungeon content with inexperienced groups. I'd never run the oaken build in dungeon finder for example.

So while I think the DPS is nice, and it does make a few fights a bit more manageable here and there, overall, I think the survivability of wearing the ring is incredibly overblown.

All that to say, oakensoul is fine where it is. It was only a problem when it was released due to Major Heroism, which allowed players to have 100% uptime on certain ultimate in both PVE and PVP. With Minor Heroism, that is not really a problem.

That's been my experience, - I run a double lightning attack sorc - using both bars, but right now, they are identical --- Crit Surge, Magelight for empower, and the 3 pet skills --- both bars, on an Imperial with Sergeant's Mail and Order's Wrath, along with Slime Craw -- I get the same DPS, and am FAR MORE survivable than I was, with Oakensoul, as the 60% crit means I am getting one every second..... even with heavy attacks, as the healing has a chance to proc on every pulse, I am regenerating 3300 health a second .....

I tend to die more often WITH Oakensoul, as I have to remember to heal more..... and with Crit Surge having a 33 second uptime, and Magelight only needing every 10 seconds..... it's a much more simple rotation than Oakensoul..... I really only need Daedric prey on large things... nothing else lasts long enough to bother with it.

Auldwulfe

Where are you getting the added survivability from -- Ring of the Pale Order? A shielding enchant on the back bar?

For my solo build, it is actually with double barred shields. Hardened front bar, Light armor shield back. Crit surge for heals. Mostly run DDF over pale order.

Compared to my oaken build which only has room for crit surge, which is dangerously less effective with so few abilities going off and lesser crit chance and no shield to provide cover while it heals.

Have you guys tried a non-Oaken HA build without using a Sorc? How does it compare? Crit surge is great but it is a Sorc exclusive. What about the other 5 classes?

Lumenn

danno8 wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

I wanted to see what all the drama was about so i tried the oakensorc on an atro dummy, only gave me 70k. So seems obvious to me that some experienced raiders are hopping on the build and making it work to higher numbers. I have no intention of modifying anything on it to give me more dps, its just novelty to me i prefer another style of play myself.

Exactly. Despite repeated claims of slapping on one ring, placing a book on one button and going afk to do "more or equal" dmg, it just isn't so and those who try it realize that just as you did.

One still has to have the right skills, the right food, the right gear, still have the right rotation (even if it's simpler) to do less dmg than an optimal 2bar build. You also tend to have to follow mechanics a bit more as it's a little harder to just burn everything down and heaven help you if you actually have to block and restart your HA. Its great for my solo character (which used a HA build before oakensoul due to my arthritis) but on good days(when my hands don't hurt so much) I can still do better with (insert the current 2bar meta) and we burn everything. It's great as even when my hands were more manageable I always hated the finger waltz and wished HA were more viable. (I never wanted anything nerfed, just wanted another path to do top end content) besides, I personally think it looks better. Optimal 2bar rotations just look...janky to me. HA is a bit smoother in my opinion.

I personally actually hate it as a solo build.

My Oaken build can hit 78K (could go higher but I run crit surge instead of another dot to add some semblance of self survival)
My solo build hits 55K unsupported.

I much prefer running my solo build in content without a dedicated healer, because it is built to survive and deal damage. The oaken build is incredibly flimsy without a healer, and honestly, not worth the hassle in soloing content. Or even in doing harder vet trial/dungeon content with inexperienced groups. I'd never run the oaken build in dungeon finder for example.

So while I think the DPS is nice, and it does make a few fights a bit more manageable here and there, overall, I think the survivability of wearing the ring is incredibly overblown.

All that to say, oakensoul is fine where it is. It was only a problem when it was released due to Major Heroism, which allowed players to have 100% uptime on certain ultimate in both PVE and PVP. With Minor Heroism, that is not really a problem.

That's been my experience, - I run a double lightning attack sorc - using both bars, but right now, they are identical --- Crit Surge, Magelight for empower, and the 3 pet skills --- both bars, on an Imperial with Sergeant's Mail and Order's Wrath, along with Slime Craw -- I get the same DPS, and am FAR MORE survivable than I was, with Oakensoul, as the 60% crit means I am getting one every second..... even with heavy attacks, as the healing has a chance to proc on every pulse, I am regenerating 3300 health a second .....

I tend to die more often WITH Oakensoul, as I have to remember to heal more..... and with Crit Surge having a 33 second uptime, and Magelight only needing every 10 seconds..... it's a much more simple rotation than Oakensoul..... I really only need Daedric prey on large things... nothing else lasts long enough to bother with it.

Auldwulfe

Where are you getting the added survivability from -- Ring of the Pale Order? A shielding enchant on the back bar?

Being an Imperial with the additional 2K health, 2K stamina, and undaunted passives, plus the equivalent of 6600 health regen, due to crits.

Auldwulfe

jaws343 wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

I wanted to see what all the drama was about so i tried the oakensorc on an atro dummy, only gave me 70k. So seems obvious to me that some experienced raiders are hopping on the build and making it work to higher numbers. I have no intention of modifying anything on it to give me more dps, its just novelty to me i prefer another style of play myself.

Exactly. Despite repeated claims of slapping on one ring, placing a book on one button and going afk to do "more or equal" dmg, it just isn't so and those who try it realize that just as you did.

One still has to have the right skills, the right food, the right gear, still have the right rotation (even if it's simpler) to do less dmg than an optimal 2bar build. You also tend to have to follow mechanics a bit more as it's a little harder to just burn everything down and heaven help you if you actually have to block and restart your HA. Its great for my solo character (which used a HA build before oakensoul due to my arthritis) but on good days(when my hands don't hurt so much) I can still do better with (insert the current 2bar meta) and we burn everything. It's great as even when my hands were more manageable I always hated the finger waltz and wished HA were more viable. (I never wanted anything nerfed, just wanted another path to do top end content) besides, I personally think it looks better. Optimal 2bar rotations just look...janky to me. HA is a bit smoother in my opinion.

I personally actually hate it as a solo build.

My Oaken build can hit 78K (could go higher but I run crit surge instead of another dot to add some semblance of self survival)
My solo build hits 55K unsupported.

I much prefer running my solo build in content without a dedicated healer, because it is built to survive and deal damage. The oaken build is incredibly flimsy without a healer, and honestly, not worth the hassle in soloing content. Or even in doing harder vet trial/dungeon content with inexperienced groups. I'd never run the oaken build in dungeon finder for example.

So while I think the DPS is nice, and it does make a few fights a bit more manageable here and there, overall, I think the survivability of wearing the ring is incredibly overblown.

All that to say, oakensoul is fine where it is. It was only a problem when it was released due to Major Heroism, which allowed players to have 100% uptime on certain ultimate in both PVE and PVP. With Minor Heroism, that is not really a problem.

That's been my experience, - I run a double lightning attack sorc - using both bars, but right now, they are identical --- Crit Surge, Magelight for empower, and the 3 pet skills --- both bars, on an Imperial with Sergeant's Mail and Order's Wrath, along with Slime Craw -- I get the same DPS, and am FAR MORE survivable than I was, with Oakensoul, as the 60% crit means I am getting one every second..... even with heavy attacks, as the healing has a chance to proc on every pulse, I am regenerating 3300 health a second .....

I tend to die more often WITH Oakensoul, as I have to remember to heal more..... and with Crit Surge having a 33 second uptime, and Magelight only needing every 10 seconds..... it's a much more simple rotation than Oakensoul..... I really only need Daedric prey on large things... nothing else lasts long enough to bother with it.

Auldwulfe

Where are you getting the added survivability from -- Ring of the Pale Order? A shielding enchant on the back bar?

For my solo build, it is actually with double barred shields. Hardened front bar, Light armor shield back. Crit surge for heals. Mostly run DDF over pale order.

Compared to my oaken build which only has room for crit surge, which is dangerously less effective with so few abilities going off and lesser crit chance and no shield to provide cover while it heals.

Have you guys tried a non-Oaken HA build without using a Sorc? How does it compare? Crit surge is great but it is a Sorc exclusive. What about the other 5 classes?

I believe hack the minotaur has some for solo(templar? Necro?)but I'm not sure how they compare to a HA sorc build dps wise. On a fotm build those pets kinda make the build so not sure how well the other classes do?

Daoin

I personally love the idea, although i would not have a character with with a HA build myself so now after many years of playing eso when things go in that direction like with builds and the HA build i simply stop playing for a while until theres a good enough reason to again. That being said i still think its a good thing because i have a long standing issue with the rubbish of weaving and light attacking for hours on end to increase dps too. I would not do either, but its a good trade off even if a cheap one. Also if a character cant do thier things thier own way without having your build written down for you on paper first whats the fun in playing anyway ? one thing is for sure those of us that do alot of random dungeons now know when we do theres a 95% - 100% chance we'll be doing so with a HA build or 2 in the group, and the 0% - 5% will be the enjoyable randoms.

axi

danno8 wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

I wanted to see what all the drama was about so i tried the oakensorc on an atro dummy, only gave me 70k. So seems obvious to me that some experienced raiders are hopping on the build and making it work to higher numbers. I have no intention of modifying anything on it to give me more dps, its just novelty to me i prefer another style of play myself.

Exactly. Despite repeated claims of slapping on one ring, placing a book on one button and going afk to do "more or equal" dmg, it just isn't so and those who try it realize that just as you did.

One still has to have the right skills, the right food, the right gear, still have the right rotation (even if it's simpler) to do less dmg than an optimal 2bar build. You also tend to have to follow mechanics a bit more as it's a little harder to just burn everything down and heaven help you if you actually have to block and restart your HA. Its great for my solo character (which used a HA build before oakensoul due to my arthritis) but on good days(when my hands don't hurt so much) I can still do better with (insert the current 2bar meta) and we burn everything. It's great as even when my hands were more manageable I always hated the finger waltz and wished HA were more viable. (I never wanted anything nerfed, just wanted another path to do top end content) besides, I personally think it looks better. Optimal 2bar rotations just look...janky to me. HA is a bit smoother in my opinion.

I personally actually hate it as a solo build.

My Oaken build can hit 78K (could go higher but I run crit surge instead of another dot to add some semblance of self survival)
My solo build hits 55K unsupported.

I much prefer running my solo build in content without a dedicated healer, because it is built to survive and deal damage. The oaken build is incredibly flimsy without a healer, and honestly, not worth the hassle in soloing content. Or even in doing harder vet trial/dungeon content with inexperienced groups. I'd never run the oaken build in dungeon finder for example.

So while I think the DPS is nice, and it does make a few fights a bit more manageable here and there, overall, I think the survivability of wearing the ring is incredibly overblown.

All that to say, oakensoul is fine where it is. It was only a problem when it was released due to Major Heroism, which allowed players to have 100% uptime on certain ultimate in both PVE and PVP. With Minor Heroism, that is not really a problem.

That's been my experience, - I run a double lightning attack sorc - using both bars, but right now, they are identical --- Crit Surge, Magelight for empower, and the 3 pet skills --- both bars, on an Imperial with Sergeant's Mail and Order's Wrath, along with Slime Craw -- I get the same DPS, and am FAR MORE survivable than I was, with Oakensoul, as the 60% crit means I am getting one every second..... even with heavy attacks, as the healing has a chance to proc on every pulse, I am regenerating 3300 health a second .....

I tend to die more often WITH Oakensoul, as I have to remember to heal more..... and with Crit Surge having a 33 second uptime, and Magelight only needing every 10 seconds..... it's a much more simple rotation than Oakensoul..... I really only need Daedric prey on large things... nothing else lasts long enough to bother with it.

Auldwulfe

Where are you getting the added survivability from -- Ring of the Pale Order? A shielding enchant on the back bar?

Being an Imperial with the additional 2K health, 2K stamina, and undaunted passives, plus the equivalent of 6600 health regen, due to crits.

Auldwulfe

jaws343 wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

I wanted to see what all the drama was about so i tried the oakensorc on an atro dummy, only gave me 70k. So seems obvious to me that some experienced raiders are hopping on the build and making it work to higher numbers. I have no intention of modifying anything on it to give me more dps, its just novelty to me i prefer another style of play myself.

Exactly. Despite repeated claims of slapping on one ring, placing a book on one button and going afk to do "more or equal" dmg, it just isn't so and those who try it realize that just as you did.

One still has to have the right skills, the right food, the right gear, still have the right rotation (even if it's simpler) to do less dmg than an optimal 2bar build. You also tend to have to follow mechanics a bit more as it's a little harder to just burn everything down and heaven help you if you actually have to block and restart your HA. Its great for my solo character (which used a HA build before oakensoul due to my arthritis) but on good days(when my hands don't hurt so much) I can still do better with (insert the current 2bar meta) and we burn everything. It's great as even when my hands were more manageable I always hated the finger waltz and wished HA were more viable. (I never wanted anything nerfed, just wanted another path to do top end content) besides, I personally think it looks better. Optimal 2bar rotations just look...janky to me. HA is a bit smoother in my opinion.

I personally actually hate it as a solo build.

My Oaken build can hit 78K (could go higher but I run crit surge instead of another dot to add some semblance of self survival)
My solo build hits 55K unsupported.

I much prefer running my solo build in content without a dedicated healer, because it is built to survive and deal damage. The oaken build is incredibly flimsy without a healer, and honestly, not worth the hassle in soloing content. Or even in doing harder vet trial/dungeon content with inexperienced groups. I'd never run the oaken build in dungeon finder for example.

So while I think the DPS is nice, and it does make a few fights a bit more manageable here and there, overall, I think the survivability of wearing the ring is incredibly overblown.

All that to say, oakensoul is fine where it is. It was only a problem when it was released due to Major Heroism, which allowed players to have 100% uptime on certain ultimate in both PVE and PVP. With Minor Heroism, that is not really a problem.

That's been my experience, - I run a double lightning attack sorc - using both bars, but right now, they are identical --- Crit Surge, Magelight for empower, and the 3 pet skills --- both bars, on an Imperial with Sergeant's Mail and Order's Wrath, along with Slime Craw -- I get the same DPS, and am FAR MORE survivable than I was, with Oakensoul, as the 60% crit means I am getting one every second..... even with heavy attacks, as the healing has a chance to proc on every pulse, I am regenerating 3300 health a second .....

I tend to die more often WITH Oakensoul, as I have to remember to heal more..... and with Crit Surge having a 33 second uptime, and Magelight only needing every 10 seconds..... it's a much more simple rotation than Oakensoul..... I really only need Daedric prey on large things... nothing else lasts long enough to bother with it.

Auldwulfe

Where are you getting the added survivability from -- Ring of the Pale Order? A shielding enchant on the back bar?

For my solo build, it is actually with double barred shields. Hardened front bar, Light armor shield back. Crit surge for heals. Mostly run DDF over pale order.

Compared to my oaken build which only has room for crit surge, which is dangerously less effective with so few abilities going off and lesser crit chance and no shield to provide cover while it heals.

Have you guys tried a non-Oaken HA build without using a Sorc? How does it compare? Crit surge is great but it is a Sorc exclusive. What about the other 5 classes?

DPS wise It's not worth it. 3-4k more DPS but ironically with less flexibility and more strict and precise rotation. It's only worth it if You need bar swapping due to mechanics or when You really need some extra slots for some utility.

jaws343

Gadamlub14_ESO wrote: »

What’s the point of an mmo or a game in general if you can get through the majority of content by holding down a single button? It seems even more cheap than a permanent tgm in an elder scrolls game.

Yeah, the MMO genre that generally has an auto attack mechanic the moment combat starts. Nothing like not holding any buttons to whittle away at your enemy.

Even for the RPG genre, this sort of auto attack can be incredibly powerful. One of the strongest builds for Dragon Age Origins is an auto-attack Archer.

This idea that holding down a single button is somehow cheap is just ridiculous. Not to mention, you still have a rotation you have to go through to even get close to the damage numbers that people are posting. No one is just holding down one button only.

jaws343

axi wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

i don't understand why this is a thing this month. these 2 sets have been in the game for years, they are from base dungeons.
oakensoul has been around for a year abouts.

you can make a HA build without oakensoul with 2 bars. It's actually a bit on the funner side.

Oakensoul was changed recently.

But it wasn't. It was changed back in like August. Nerfed in fact. There have been zero changes to it, or anything around the heavy attack builds for like 9 months.

Azphira

You will melee range light attack animation cheese like everyone else and you will enjoy it.

Daoin

but this is eso not another game in same genre and a rotaion should be skill most needed at time first really for it to be considered in any way a useful or enjoyable skill, i personally think the HA build floats away from this idea so far it could be considered an island of its own. Still not complaining though i still think its a great start for new (or more recent) players of eso and hope it stems down a little of the toxicity i still see today even in random groups. In this area still a plaster on a gaping wound though.

axi

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

i don't understand why this is a thing this month. these 2 sets have been in the game for years, they are from base dungeons.
oakensoul has been around for a year abouts.

you can make a HA build without oakensoul with 2 bars. It's actually a bit on the funner side.

Oakensoul was changed recently.

But it wasn't. It was changed back in like August. Nerfed in fact. There have been zero changes to it, or anything around the heavy attack builds for like 9 months.

It kinda was. Keep in mind there was like 2-3 months time period where due to block bugs there was a big absence of PvE runs compared to previous months and that it usually takes few months for certain gamechanging things to climb their way. Now add to this fact that complaints about oakensoul heavy attack setups havn't start yesterday but around end of the year and You will have 9 months period filled.

jaws343

axi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

i don't understand why this is a thing this month. these 2 sets have been in the game for years, they are from base dungeons.
oakensoul has been around for a year abouts.

you can make a HA build without oakensoul with 2 bars. It's actually a bit on the funner side.

Oakensoul was changed recently.

But it wasn't. It was changed back in like August. Nerfed in fact. There have been zero changes to it, or anything around the heavy attack builds for like 9 months.

It kinda was. Keep in mind there was like 2-3 months time period where due to block bugs there was a big absence of PvE runs compared to previous months and that it usually takes few months for certain gamechanging things to climb their way. Now add to this fact that complaints about oakensoul heavy attack setups havn't start yesterday but around end of the year and You will have 9 months period filled.

The complaints only happened because content creators recently finally decided to make and post builds around it.

And still, more than 3 patches ago is not recent by any means. The ring has only gotten weaker than when it launched. That is a fact.

Quethrosar

axi wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

i don't understand why this is a thing this month. these 2 sets have been in the game for years, they are from base dungeons.
oakensoul has been around for a year abouts.

you can make a HA build without oakensoul with 2 bars. It's actually a bit on the funner side.

Oakensoul was changed recently.

it was changed last year

Auldwulfe

Quethrosar wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

i don't understand why this is a thing this month. these 2 sets have been in the game for years, they are from base dungeons.
oakensoul has been around for a year abouts.

you can make a HA build without oakensoul with 2 bars. It's actually a bit on the funner side.

Oakensoul was changed recently.

it was changed last year

I'm seeing it in other posts... people saying that Oakensoul bothers them, because Noobs can do as much damage as they do.... and they think it isn't fair..... guess we should start calling it ESO the Gathering....... it's starting to take on some of that toxicity.

Best part, I have been doing what most would consider 1 bar builds for 18 months, now..... the time I have been actively playing. I had a build, on a sorc, with Sergeant's Mail and a lightning staff..... identical front and back bars, so a 1 bar build for ALL intents and purposes.... about a year before Oakensoul was even in the game.... and my damage is about the same, I am equally as "tanky" (a term without any clear definition, which makes it perfect to use in complaints, as it is definitely a moveable goalpost) in that I regen 3300 health every second I am in combat. And, as an Imperial, I am naturally tanky.... with 38K Magicka, 32K health, and 18K stamina... and if I swapped my attributes to stamina, my damage would, likely, go up.... with heavy lightning staff meaning I CAN still run as a Magicka build..... thanks to hybridization.

I would say that I use Oakensoul about 10% of the time.... as I play with it, when designing builds..... I have YET to find one that works really any better than my other 1 bar builds... some may give me 5 or 10% more damage, but I lose some unique qualities, and really don't get much I can't get elsewhere.......

Crit surge gives me the equal of having a 6600 boost to health regen......Full Monster sets, which you can't have with a mythic, unless you want to give up a 5 piece bonus, give me unique effects..... So, honestly, I do better with a sorc designed with identical front and back bars (I could change that, some, but I did it to prove something, and it works well enough I haven't bothered to change it) -- Critical surge, Magelight, Daedric prey, and both pets... front and back.... and with the pulses on a lightning staff counting as 4 attacks, and a 60% crit, I heal 3300 a second... something that Oakensoul does NOT do..... plenty enough to muscle through, if I miss a dodge..... I can't get away with that with Oakensoul...... so I die more often using the mythic, than not.....

And most of my builds give me about 60 to 65K damage.... more than enough to clear material, and because they run simple rotations, usually no more than 3 keys, they are easy to maintain... My templar is built entirely around flurry..... and light attacks.... but I only rarely use dots like shards, or the necro ball... most of the creatures do NOT live long enough.....
So, more or less a 1 button build for 50% of play..... Oh Noes...... it must be nerfed, as it does not require 3 hands and a macro to function.

On a side note, I also do not use addons..... so I don't get popups to tell me when to dodge, what button to mash next, nor do I set my mouse wheel to spin and auto hit certain things.... all things that have been suggested, and are somehow ok.... using 3rd party outside software is not bad, but using an item you have to work for in game, is bad.......


Oakensoul is a threat to these players, because it is the tip of an iceberg... with U35 knocking everything to a base level.... other builds are now becoming viable... selling carries for Pillars of Nirn is no longer a guaranteed cash flow......and the plebs are finding their own footing in the hollowed halls of the trials and DLC dungeons... How Dare They!!

I am embracing Oakensoul, even if I don't find much use for it, because it is encouraging people to try new things, new builds, new areas, etc.... That is good for a game that relies on a subscription model...... as locking new players into overland, until they have put in the prescribed number of hours on dummies, and paid their "betters" for access to better equipment via carries, is kind of bad for a subscription model game.

Auldwulfe

Quethrosar

I agree somewhat with what you just said. I am playing with 2 bar HA builds.
Have to use seargant , but playing with reloquen or whirl for the other because of the 5%.
And I want to use my perfected maelstrom i got a week ago lol.

I really do not like pets, and i find them dying too much during fights like trying to solo a harrow storm.

i like to have skills available to me choose from and i like not using potions for damage increases. so i need my inner light slotted.

while dps can be easily 60k or more with this compromise of having more skills available. With oakensoul and pets it can be 90k or more with only 3 buttons being used. without oakensoul i need to take time to keep crit surge up, use mage guild ability for empower, etc...

i can parse the same 85k with traditional LA weaving and pets, you know the normal meta but again i hate using sword and dual wielding and pets.

Daoin

well i actually had a sorc for my first character over 6 years ago and still wouldnt change it around today to even give the HA build a shot today, likely more cant even remember when beta was. even those pets rarely have seen the light of day except when there was a little more connenction to eso and the elder scrolls and not eso and dps

Auldwulfe

Quethrosar wrote: »

I agree somewhat with what you just said. I am playing with 2 bar HA builds.
Have to use seargant , but playing with reloquen or whirl for the other because of the 5%.
And I want to use my perfected maelstrom i got a week ago lol.

I really do not like pets, and i find them dying too much during fights like trying to solo a harrow storm.

i like to have skills available to me choose from and i like not using potions for damage increases. so i need my inner light slotted.

while dps can be easily 60k or more with this compromise of having more skills available. With oakensoul and pets it can be 90k or more with only 3 buttons being used. without oakensoul i need to take time to keep crit surge up, use mage guild ability for empower, etc...

i can parse the same 85k with traditional LA weaving and pets, you know the normal meta but again i hate using sword and dual wielding and pets.

Yes, but Crit surge is once every 33 seconds... so much slower than the ones posted online for Oakensoul that get the high damage..... to use the phrase I coined elsewhere..... this has become ODS.... Oakensoul Derangement Syndrome, and the game is devolving into ESO the Gathering at it's level of toxicity

Auldwulfe

Daoin

hmm all this dps chat is another language to me, better leave this convo while im still looking forward to my next dungeon

FrancisCrawford

Auldwulfe wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

I wanted to see what all the drama was about so i tried the oakensorc on an atro dummy, only gave me 70k. So seems obvious to me that some experienced raiders are hopping on the build and making it work to higher numbers. I have no intention of modifying anything on it to give me more dps, its just novelty to me i prefer another style of play myself.

Exactly. Despite repeated claims of slapping on one ring, placing a book on one button and going afk to do "more or equal" dmg, it just isn't so and those who try it realize that just as you did.

One still has to have the right skills, the right food, the right gear, still have the right rotation (even if it's simpler) to do less dmg than an optimal 2bar build. You also tend to have to follow mechanics a bit more as it's a little harder to just burn everything down and heaven help you if you actually have to block and restart your HA. Its great for my solo character (which used a HA build before oakensoul due to my arthritis) but on good days(when my hands don't hurt so much) I can still do better with (insert the current 2bar meta) and we burn everything. It's great as even when my hands were more manageable I always hated the finger waltz and wished HA were more viable. (I never wanted anything nerfed, just wanted another path to do top end content) besides, I personally think it looks better. Optimal 2bar rotations just look...janky to me. HA is a bit smoother in my opinion.

I personally actually hate it as a solo build.

My Oaken build can hit 78K (could go higher but I run crit surge instead of another dot to add some semblance of self survival)
My solo build hits 55K unsupported.

I much prefer running my solo build in content without a dedicated healer, because it is built to survive and deal damage. The oaken build is incredibly flimsy without a healer, and honestly, not worth the hassle in soloing content. Or even in doing harder vet trial/dungeon content with inexperienced groups. I'd never run the oaken build in dungeon finder for example.

So while I think the DPS is nice, and it does make a few fights a bit more manageable here and there, overall, I think the survivability of wearing the ring is incredibly overblown.

All that to say, oakensoul is fine where it is. It was only a problem when it was released due to Major Heroism, which allowed players to have 100% uptime on certain ultimate in both PVE and PVP. With Minor Heroism, that is not really a problem.

That's been my experience, - I run a double lightning attack sorc - using both bars, but right now, they are identical --- Crit Surge, Magelight for empower, and the 3 pet skills --- both bars, on an Imperial with Sergeant's Mail and Order's Wrath, along with Slime Craw -- I get the same DPS, and am FAR MORE survivable than I was, with Oakensoul, as the 60% crit means I am getting one every second..... even with heavy attacks, as the healing has a chance to proc on every pulse, I am regenerating 3300 health a second .....

I tend to die more often WITH Oakensoul, as I have to remember to heal more..... and with Crit Surge having a 33 second uptime, and Magelight only needing every 10 seconds..... it's a much more simple rotation than Oakensoul..... I really only need Daedric prey on large things... nothing else lasts long enough to bother with it.

Auldwulfe

Where are you getting the added survivability from -- Ring of the Pale Order? A shielding enchant on the back bar?

Being an Imperial with the additional 2K health, 2K stamina, and undaunted passives, plus the equivalent of 6600 health regen, due to crits.

Auldwulfe

Those sound like benefits you could get on one bar as well as two.

I still haven't understood how a 2-bar build with the same skills as a 1-bar build is better, when the only differences are:

• You can back-bar an ability-altering weapon.
• You benefit from a second enchantment.
• You can use a different mythic item.

At least, I don't understand it if the benefits aren't in the enchantment or alternate mythic item.

Auldwulfe

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

endgamesmug wrote: »

I wanted to see what all the drama was about so i tried the oakensorc on an atro dummy, only gave me 70k. So seems obvious to me that some experienced raiders are hopping on the build and making it work to higher numbers. I have no intention of modifying anything on it to give me more dps, its just novelty to me i prefer another style of play myself.

Exactly. Despite repeated claims of slapping on one ring, placing a book on one button and going afk to do "more or equal" dmg, it just isn't so and those who try it realize that just as you did.

One still has to have the right skills, the right food, the right gear, still have the right rotation (even if it's simpler) to do less dmg than an optimal 2bar build. You also tend to have to follow mechanics a bit more as it's a little harder to just burn everything down and heaven help you if you actually have to block and restart your HA. Its great for my solo character (which used a HA build before oakensoul due to my arthritis) but on good days(when my hands don't hurt so much) I can still do better with (insert the current 2bar meta) and we burn everything. It's great as even when my hands were more manageable I always hated the finger waltz and wished HA were more viable. (I never wanted anything nerfed, just wanted another path to do top end content) besides, I personally think it looks better. Optimal 2bar rotations just look...janky to me. HA is a bit smoother in my opinion.

I personally actually hate it as a solo build.

My Oaken build can hit 78K (could go higher but I run crit surge instead of another dot to add some semblance of self survival)
My solo build hits 55K unsupported.

I much prefer running my solo build in content without a dedicated healer, because it is built to survive and deal damage. The oaken build is incredibly flimsy without a healer, and honestly, not worth the hassle in soloing content. Or even in doing harder vet trial/dungeon content with inexperienced groups. I'd never run the oaken build in dungeon finder for example.

So while I think the DPS is nice, and it does make a few fights a bit more manageable here and there, overall, I think the survivability of wearing the ring is incredibly overblown.

All that to say, oakensoul is fine where it is. It was only a problem when it was released due to Major Heroism, which allowed players to have 100% uptime on certain ultimate in both PVE and PVP. With Minor Heroism, that is not really a problem.

That's been my experience, - I run a double lightning attack sorc - using both bars, but right now, they are identical --- Crit Surge, Magelight for empower, and the 3 pet skills --- both bars, on an Imperial with Sergeant's Mail and Order's Wrath, along with Slime Craw -- I get the same DPS, and am FAR MORE survivable than I was, with Oakensoul, as the 60% crit means I am getting one every second..... even with heavy attacks, as the healing has a chance to proc on every pulse, I am regenerating 3300 health a second .....

I tend to die more often WITH Oakensoul, as I have to remember to heal more..... and with Crit Surge having a 33 second uptime, and Magelight only needing every 10 seconds..... it's a much more simple rotation than Oakensoul..... I really only need Daedric prey on large things... nothing else lasts long enough to bother with it.

Auldwulfe

Where are you getting the added survivability from -- Ring of the Pale Order? A shielding enchant on the back bar?

Being an Imperial with the additional 2K health, 2K stamina, and undaunted passives, plus the equivalent of 6600 health regen, due to crits.

Auldwulfe

Those sound like benefits you could get on one bar as well as two.

I still haven't understood how a 2-bar build with the same skills as a 1-bar build is better, when the only differences are:

• You can back-bar an ability-altering weapon.
• You benefit from a second enchantment.
• You can use a different mythic item.

At least, I don't understand it if the benefits aren't in the enchantment or alternate mythic item.

In theory, I could include Crit Surge on an Oakensoul.... would not change a thing, really, other than I would then get the 3300 health a second, but it also duplicates one of the big buffs - so yeah, I'd get the healing, but the "all powerful" (as some believe) Oakensoul would but just running 65K parse, and maybe 30K in a dungeon...... which I can get with those same skills and no Oakensoul.... so it just doubles up, and is not efficient.

As another player so adroitly put it, in another thread... he is frustrated that he put in all the work he did, ground out sets for his DPS, etc, and some Noob is matching him .......

His argument would make sense, if you could buy the ring in the crown store... but honestly you have to grind for it... and you can't even get a carry for finding the leads, you have to do it yourself.......unlike other sets.

And the same people that scream about oakensoul are also the same people using 3rd party addons to make their game easier.....telling them when to mash buttons... and in general, doing all the thinking .... to be honest, as a former military intelligence soldier, it reminds me of the trained monkey experiments... the light comes on, and the monkey pushes the button.

Most of these people have never actually used the ring.... and the people that do use it in the way that they seem to think it is used are usually splatters on the floor.
Right now, HA builds with lightning staves are just the most current version of Pillars of Nirn, and perfected weapon builds...... no different.
And these same people keep ignoring the limitations on it.... in their religious furvor to "stamp out the heresy" of the plebs walking in their holy ground of trials.

People scream about the 100% uptime of Empower... but, Queen's Elegance, a basic set from Auridon, one of the easiest places in the game, can give you 99% uptime on Empower -- that has been shown in parses posted in various threads, on this very forum.

RIght now, Oakensoul is clickbait .... creators are making videos, because it gets clicks, eyeballs, and revenue.... and people are trying it... and MANY are finding that it does limit, and eventually move on to other things.

Howeve, in order to have it, you, AGAIN, have to have bought the game, bought High Isle, and either ESO plus, OR bought sever DLC expansions... it is supporting the servers, which nerfing it will NOT do.... You then have to grind the Antiquities skill up, then grind the leads, and then get the item...... it's EASIER to get Pillars of Nirn with Carries... to be honest. Also, unlike trials, you do have to be champion 50 / 160 for Oakensoul.... I can build a level 5 character with my Pillars of Nirn, if I want to.... all I need to do is spend 1 day researching the trait I want on it, and then go to Clockwork city..... as you recreate the item at the level of the character up there... I do NOT need to be champion to use other methods.

I'm supporting it, precisely because it allows new players to build something that works while they figure out the CP system and all the other things in the game......unless they learn the mechanics, and everything that is needed, they STILL do not just blow through any DLC content... it is less of an "I Win" button than addons, etc.....
And for people that keep thinking it's some how TGM... go get it, and try and go through any VET content, but ignore ALL mechanics, as you insist that Oakensoul players can do.... and when you die, because you WILL, if you don't know mechanics.... Can I loot your body?

We should be glad we are getting new subscribers, not complaining that they threaten our ego, because they have a tool that works...... a good option would be to let them get their feet wet, and enjoy the game.... Oakensoul builds are blood splatters in higher areas, and in PVP... they will have to adapt to play those.... but at least, they can do enough content with it, to find out if they want to invest... because trust me, there are a LOT of other games calling.

Auldwulfe

axi

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

i don't understand why this is a thing this month. these 2 sets have been in the game for years, they are from base dungeons.
oakensoul has been around for a year abouts.

you can make a HA build without oakensoul with 2 bars. It's actually a bit on the funner side.

Oakensoul was changed recently.

But it wasn't. It was changed back in like August. Nerfed in fact. There have been zero changes to it, or anything around the heavy attack builds for like 9 months.

It kinda was. Keep in mind there was like 2-3 months time period where due to block bugs there was a big absence of PvE runs compared to previous months and that it usually takes few months for certain gamechanging things to climb their way. Now add to this fact that complaints about oakensoul heavy attack setups havn't start yesterday but around end of the year and You will have 9 months period filled.

The complaints only happened because content creators recently finally decided to make and post builds around it.

And still, more than 3 patches ago is not recent by any means. The ring has only gotten weaker than when it launched. That is a fact.

Oakensoul was becoming increasingly popular even before content creators started to show it to the public. I've seen lots of people running with it already at the end of 2022. Like with everything gamechaning it needed a time to develop but now when it finally did it's slowly becoming the only reasonable way to play in the early and midgame plus in some parts of the end game. It developed itself rather quickly and that procces is only speeding up.

jaws343

axi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

i don't understand why this is a thing this month. these 2 sets have been in the game for years, they are from base dungeons.
oakensoul has been around for a year abouts.

you can make a HA build without oakensoul with 2 bars. It's actually a bit on the funner side.

Oakensoul was changed recently.

But it wasn't. It was changed back in like August. Nerfed in fact. There have been zero changes to it, or anything around the heavy attack builds for like 9 months.

It kinda was. Keep in mind there was like 2-3 months time period where due to block bugs there was a big absence of PvE runs compared to previous months and that it usually takes few months for certain gamechanging things to climb their way. Now add to this fact that complaints about oakensoul heavy attack setups havn't start yesterday but around end of the year and You will have 9 months period filled.

The complaints only happened because content creators recently finally decided to make and post builds around it.

And still, more than 3 patches ago is not recent by any means. The ring has only gotten weaker than when it launched. That is a fact.

Oakensoul was becoming increasingly popular even before content creators started to show it to the public. I've seen lots of people running with it already at the end of 2022. Like with everything gamechaning it needed a time to develop but now when it finally did it's slowly becoming the only reasonable way to play in the early and midgame plus in some parts of the end game. It developed itself rather quickly and that procces is only speeding up.

Calling it the only reasonable way to play is an extreme exaggeration.

axi

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

i don't understand why this is a thing this month. these 2 sets have been in the game for years, they are from base dungeons.
oakensoul has been around for a year abouts.

you can make a HA build without oakensoul with 2 bars. It's actually a bit on the funner side.

Oakensoul was changed recently.

But it wasn't. It was changed back in like August. Nerfed in fact. There have been zero changes to it, or anything around the heavy attack builds for like 9 months.

It kinda was. Keep in mind there was like 2-3 months time period where due to block bugs there was a big absence of PvE runs compared to previous months and that it usually takes few months for certain gamechanging things to climb their way. Now add to this fact that complaints about oakensoul heavy attack setups havn't start yesterday but around end of the year and You will have 9 months period filled.

The complaints only happened because content creators recently finally decided to make and post builds around it.

And still, more than 3 patches ago is not recent by any means. The ring has only gotten weaker than when it launched. That is a fact.

Oakensoul was becoming increasingly popular even before content creators started to show it to the public. I've seen lots of people running with it already at the end of 2022. Like with everything gamechaning it needed a time to develop but now when it finally did it's slowly becoming the only reasonable way to play in the early and midgame plus in some parts of the end game. It developed itself rather quickly and that procces is only speeding up.

Calling it the only reasonable way to play is an extreme exaggeration.

Is it though? If a one bar, range, heavy attack setup in a real content is capable to produce 85-100% of single target DPS produced by two bar, meele, light attack setup plus more DPS in AOE while also having better sustain and defense than what is excatly the reason to play two bar setup when it also requires way more practice to be even on pair with one bar heavy attack setup and way way way more practice to surpass them?

jaws343

axi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

i don't understand why this is a thing this month. these 2 sets have been in the game for years, they are from base dungeons.
oakensoul has been around for a year abouts.

you can make a HA build without oakensoul with 2 bars. It's actually a bit on the funner side.

Oakensoul was changed recently.

But it wasn't. It was changed back in like August. Nerfed in fact. There have been zero changes to it, or anything around the heavy attack builds for like 9 months.

It kinda was. Keep in mind there was like 2-3 months time period where due to block bugs there was a big absence of PvE runs compared to previous months and that it usually takes few months for certain gamechanging things to climb their way. Now add to this fact that complaints about oakensoul heavy attack setups havn't start yesterday but around end of the year and You will have 9 months period filled.

The complaints only happened because content creators recently finally decided to make and post builds around it.

And still, more than 3 patches ago is not recent by any means. The ring has only gotten weaker than when it launched. That is a fact.

Oakensoul was becoming increasingly popular even before content creators started to show it to the public. I've seen lots of people running with it already at the end of 2022. Like with everything gamechaning it needed a time to develop but now when it finally did it's slowly becoming the only reasonable way to play in the early and midgame plus in some parts of the end game. It developed itself rather quickly and that procces is only speeding up.

Calling it the only reasonable way to play is an extreme exaggeration.

Is it though? If a one bar, range, heavy attack setup in a real content is capable to produce 85-100% of single target DPS produced by two bar, meele, light attack setup plus more DPS in AOE while also having better sustain and defense than what is excatly the reason to play two bar setup when it also requires way more practice to be even on pair with one bar heavy attack setup and way way way more practice to surpass them?

Because a two bar setup provides a ton more cushion for mistakes, and self support in content that may be better served with that.

Like, I can 100% guarantee if I am running a vet dungeon on my Two Bar build and the rest of my group goes down, I have a chance to either solo out the rest of a boss encounter, or get a res off. Because it the flexibility of the build provides far more survivability. And on my 1 bar build, if the tank dies and hte healer dies, I'm dead. There is no surviving the encounter, crit surge is awful without a shield to cover the healing, and good luck fitting both of those onto an oaken build.

I've run both a 1 bar build and two bar build through vet vateshran for example. The 2 bar build is leagues ahead in performance, even if the 1 bar build can output more dps on a target dummy. Because you know what you cannot do? You cannot heavy attack while you are blocking mechanics. But, with a shield up on my two bar build, I can ignore a lot of mechanics that would otherwise kill me with only one bar. And still do damage while those mechanics are happening. And with the right setup, I am still doing most of my dps even while blocking because of dots and aoes being active.

Vevvev

danno8 wrote: »

Next up, the Walnutsoul mythic.

"Gain every single major and minor buff in the game, but you are allowed no skill bars at all."

I present this in jest, but I actually wonder if there are those who would love this idea.

Already got the light attack build in my mind coming together on this one!

jecks33

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

I used to skip Veteran Dungeons and Trials in the past because I felt useless in those. Now I have found a great streaming guild (congrats @Raikiki ) who resparked my passion for veteran content due to the very nature of heavy attack builds and including those in groups! I love being able to play with other users without dragging them down.

on what platform is this guild? how is it called?

axi

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

i don't understand why this is a thing this month. these 2 sets have been in the game for years, they are from base dungeons.
oakensoul has been around for a year abouts.

you can make a HA build without oakensoul with 2 bars. It's actually a bit on the funner side.

Oakensoul was changed recently.

But it wasn't. It was changed back in like August. Nerfed in fact. There have been zero changes to it, or anything around the heavy attack builds for like 9 months.

It kinda was. Keep in mind there was like 2-3 months time period where due to block bugs there was a big absence of PvE runs compared to previous months and that it usually takes few months for certain gamechanging things to climb their way. Now add to this fact that complaints about oakensoul heavy attack setups havn't start yesterday but around end of the year and You will have 9 months period filled.

The complaints only happened because content creators recently finally decided to make and post builds around it.

And still, more than 3 patches ago is not recent by any means. The ring has only gotten weaker than when it launched. That is a fact.

Oakensoul was becoming increasingly popular even before content creators started to show it to the public. I've seen lots of people running with it already at the end of 2022. Like with everything gamechaning it needed a time to develop but now when it finally did it's slowly becoming the only reasonable way to play in the early and midgame plus in some parts of the end game. It developed itself rather quickly and that procces is only speeding up.

Calling it the only reasonable way to play is an extreme exaggeration.

Is it though? If a one bar, range, heavy attack setup in a real content is capable to produce 85-100% of single target DPS produced by two bar, meele, light attack setup plus more DPS in AOE while also having better sustain and defense than what is excatly the reason to play two bar setup when it also requires way more practice to be even on pair with one bar heavy attack setup and way way way more practice to surpass them?

Because a two bar setup provides a ton more cushion for mistakes, and self support in content that may be better served with that.

Like, I can 100% guarantee if I am running a vet dungeon on my Two Bar build and the rest of my group goes down, I have a chance to either solo out the rest of a boss encounter, or get a res off. Because it the flexibility of the build provides far more survivability. And on my 1 bar build, if the tank dies and hte healer dies, I'm dead. There is no surviving the encounter, crit surge is awful without a shield to cover the healing, and good luck fitting both of those onto an oaken build.

I've run both a 1 bar build and two bar build through vet vateshran for example. The 2 bar build is leagues ahead in performance, even if the 1 bar build can output more dps on a target dummy. Because you know what you cannot do? You cannot heavy attack while you are blocking mechanics. But, with a shield up on my two bar build, I can ignore a lot of mechanics that would otherwise kill me with only one bar. And still do damage while those mechanics are happening. And with the right setup, I am still doing most of my dps even while blocking because of dots and aoes being active.

That is why I said early, mid and some of the end game not all of the end game. When it comes to "cushion for mistakes" I would say in trials it's one bar heavy attack setup that allows for more of it. With defense it have it allows to sometimes ignore certain mechanics and simplicity of rotation naturally produces less mistakes. Oakensoul is a definition of self support, it gives lots of things that You would normally need to provide Yourself with.

That being said, yes there are places where two bar is still more optimal but more optimal doesn't mean that one bar heavy attack won't work. You gave an example of vet dungeons but the thing is that every dungeon You can solo with two bar setup You can also solo with one bar setup and worse case scenario fight will be just longer. The real game changer that makes soloing easier isn't one or two bars but ring of the pale order but that is only if You go solo from the beggining. Flexibility of two bar setups is helpfull but it isn't game changer. You can fit every crucial component required to complete something on one bar setup either.

I've run all solo arenas and multiple vet DLC HM dungeons solo in both one bar and two bar and the difference isn''t really that staggering. Two bar is just faster but it's because as an experienced player I can squeeze more from it but for less experienced player it doesn't have to be this way. Vateshran and maesltrom are not that hard wheter You are using one bar or two bar. The latter will be just faster if You are more experienced player.

Still all of these doesn't change what I wrote in my previous comment that You quoted. Fact that two bar setups will have limited usage doesnt change a fact that one bar heavy attackl setup right now is a better option for majority of groups in majority of encounters because of reasons I've mentioned. With enough time it have p[otential to become dominating setup especially in mid game.

Lumenn

axi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

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Quethrosar wrote: »

i don't understand why this is a thing this month. these 2 sets have been in the game for years, they are from base dungeons.
oakensoul has been around for a year abouts.

you can make a HA build without oakensoul with 2 bars. It's actually a bit on the funner side.

Oakensoul was changed recently.

But it wasn't. It was changed back in like August. Nerfed in fact. There have been zero changes to it, or anything around the heavy attack builds for like 9 months.

It kinda was. Keep in mind there was like 2-3 months time period where due to block bugs there was a big absence of PvE runs compared to previous months and that it usually takes few months for certain gamechanging things to climb their way. Now add to this fact that complaints about oakensoul heavy attack setups havn't start yesterday but around end of the year and You will have 9 months period filled.

The complaints only happened because content creators recently finally decided to make and post builds around it.

And still, more than 3 patches ago is not recent by any means. The ring has only gotten weaker than when it launched. That is a fact.

Oakensoul was becoming increasingly popular even before content creators started to show it to the public. I've seen lots of people running with it already at the end of 2022. Like with everything gamechaning it needed a time to develop but now when it finally did it's slowly becoming the only reasonable way to play in the early and midgame plus in some parts of the end game. It developed itself rather quickly and that procces is only speeding up.

Calling it the only reasonable way to play is an extreme exaggeration.

Is it though? If a one bar, range, heavy attack setup in a real content is capable to produce 85-100% of single target DPS produced by two bar, meele, light attack setup plus more DPS in AOE while also having better sustain and defense than what is excatly the reason to play two bar setup when it also requires way more practice to be even on pair with one bar heavy attack setup and way way way more practice to surpass them?

Because a two bar setup provides a ton more cushion for mistakes, and self support in content that may be better served with that.

Like, I can 100% guarantee if I am running a vet dungeon on my Two Bar build and the rest of my group goes down, I have a chance to either solo out the rest of a boss encounter, or get a res off. Because it the flexibility of the build provides far more survivability. And on my 1 bar build, if the tank dies and hte healer dies, I'm dead. There is no surviving the encounter, crit surge is awful without a shield to cover the healing, and good luck fitting both of those onto an oaken build.

I've run both a 1 bar build and two bar build through vet vateshran for example. The 2 bar build is leagues ahead in performance, even if the 1 bar build can output more dps on a target dummy. Because you know what you cannot do? You cannot heavy attack while you are blocking mechanics. But, with a shield up on my two bar build, I can ignore a lot of mechanics that would otherwise kill me with only one bar. And still do damage while those mechanics are happening. And with the right setup, I am still doing most of my dps even while blocking because of dots and aoes being active.

That is why I said early, mid and some of the end game not all of the end game. When it comes to "cushion for mistakes" I would say in trials it's one bar heavy attack setup that allows for more of it. With defense it have it allows to sometimes ignore certain mechanics and simplicity of rotation naturally produces less mistakes. Oakensoul is a definition of self support, it gives lots of things that You would normally need to provide Yourself with.

That being said, yes there are places where two bar is still more optimal but more optimal doesn't mean that one bar heavy attack won't work. You gave an example of vet dungeons but the thing is that every dungeon You can solo with two bar setup You can also solo with one bar setup and worse case scenario fight will be just longer. The real game changer that makes soloing easier isn't one or two bars but ring of the pale order but that is only if You go solo from the beggining. Flexibility of two bar setups is helpfull but it isn't game changer. You can fit every crucial component required to complete something on one bar setup either.

I've run all solo arenas and multiple vet DLC HM dungeons solo in both one bar and two bar and the difference isn''t really that staggering. Two bar is just faster but it's because as an experienced player I can squeeze more from it but for less experienced player it doesn't have to be this way. Vateshran and maesltrom are not that hard wheter You are using one bar or two bar. The latter will be just faster if You are more experienced player.

Still all of these doesn't change what I wrote in my previous comment that You quoted. Fact that two bar setups will have limited usage doesnt change a fact that one bar heavy attackl setup right now is a better option for majority of groups in majority of encounters because of reasons I've mentioned. With enough time it have p[otential to become dominating setup especially in mid game.

You're absolutely correct that one bar will be better for a majority of groups. It seems like it's custom MADE for the average player, while the 2 bar(who if we're being honest here has a much BETTER track record/history of avoiding mechanics due to burning content) is still the go to for the score pushers and top tier. I'll disagree on one point though, the flexibility of the 2 bar can indeed be a game changer, specifically when it comes to blocking/dodging. A block doesn't hurt a 2 bar nearly as much as always having to break what's basically a channelled cast all the time. To some of us, that's a pretty big deal.

Twig_Garlicshine

I think Oakensoul, and Heavy Attack builds are fine as is and do NOT need nerfing, as they let more players access in game content.

Pre-Oakensoul
Zos: Play how you want.
3rd party content creators: You must run this build, with this mythic, and manually apply this auto attack followed by a skill every .8 seconds.
In game .01% players: Carries available for this, this, and this, at this price. Pay us to access game content.

Post-Oakensoul
Zos: Play how you want. This mythic may help more players access more game content.
3rd party content creators: We will get more income from our websites with click bait outrage like news sites.
In game .01% players: We don't sell enough paid carries anymore. We need to keep pushing Zos to nerf these builds that allow more people to access game content.

Disclaimers: I don't pay for carries nor do I sell them.
I did play in a top rank Wow progression guild and dps is not something we trialed new members for. We tested their ability to game under pressure, learn mechanics, and get along with others. eg - Me to healers: "Let him die, let's see how he reacts."
I can and do LA weave/animation cancel. I also think it is a silly manual application of something that would be an auto attack in any other game. I have 3 Oakensuol builds I sometimes use: 2 are HA builds, 1 is LA. The rest of my builds are 2 bar LA builds or front bar offense/back bar defense (pvp) builds.
I also think Zos should destroy the Holy Trinity, of tank/healer/dps, once and for all.

Players should be able to play how they want.
Without paying for carries.