Heavy Attacks are no mistake, they are the right step for inclusion

AcadianPaladin

Oaken HA builds have pros and cons. A big con for me is (as mentioned above) having to drop the HA to block. Two WBs come to mind, both in Deeshan. Short Tusk rapidly alternates between HA and magic wind up attacks - both require you to frequently block / interrupt, respectively. Druitilag reliably dodge rolls to avoid your heavy attacks. He also routinely uses HA and magic wind up attacks requiring you to drop HA and block/interrupt.

I love Oakensoul primarily because it frees me from the tedium of micromanaging a whole back bar of buffs. I have 2 Oakenarchers and 4 Oakenmages. Only 1 (magsorc) is what I would call a HA build. I find the beauty of the Empower buff to not be making a HA build but, rather, the pleasure of having a HA that is actually a usable skill to regen mag/stam while still hitting pretty hard, combined with the luxury of able to mostly ignore mag/stam regen to focus on crit and or weapon/spell damage.

AlterBlika

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

ESO has always considered itself as a game meant to be played by all kinds of people. End-game progress raid players, PVP players and casual dungeoneers and questers.

You said it yourself. There's content for endgame raids, pvp, quests, rp, etc. These encounters are designed for different people. If you're playing because of pve then why would you play pvp, for example? If the game is meant to be played by all kinds of people, it doesn't mean that, for instance, roleplayers should play endgame. I personally don't pvp, don't rp. But there's content for these people.

Similar cases, really. You're lazy, unwilling to learn or have a disability - then why would you care about endgame? It should be way out of your league. Endgame is always about competing and achievements. You reach top dps without any effort whatsoever, of course it's going to be disliked by (original expression got starred, sadly) people who spent a lot of time practicing their rotations, preparing their builds.

I'd like to give you some IRL instances, but they would sound rude and toxic.
I personally don't do endgame much but I understand people who're unhappy with these builds.

Auldwulfe

AlterBlika wrote: »

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

ESO has always considered itself as a game meant to be played by all kinds of people. End-game progress raid players, PVP players and casual dungeoneers and questers.

You said it yourself. There's content for endgame raids, pvp, quests, rp, etc. These encounters are designed for different people. If you're playing because of pve then why would you play pvp, for example? If the game is meant to be played by all kinds of people, it doesn't mean that, for instance, roleplayers should play endgame. I personally don't pvp, don't rp. But there's content for these people.

Similar cases, really. You're lazy, unwilling to learn or have a disability - then why would you care about endgame? It should be way out of your league. Endgame is always about competing and achievements. You reach top dps without any effort whatsoever, of course it's going to be disliked by (original expression got starred, sadly) people who spent a lot of time practicing their rotations, preparing their builds.

I'd like to give you some IRL instances, but they would sound rude and toxic.
I personally don't do endgame much but I understand people who're unhappy with these builds.

Maybe they care about endgame, because they are paying for it, and most development, paid for, by their subscription money, goes to that content ......
And, as people on all sides have noted, most people using that build aren't getting to the very end... except for those that could do it with starter equipment, already......

People pay for the game, which includes all content... so why is it acceptable to expect that they will pay for the engamers, and engame, that they don't get to at least see, in some way or another.......
It sounds just as toxic to tell people "cough up the money, so I can enjoy things you can't see..... and get over it"

Auldwulfe

TheDarkRuler

jecks33 wrote: »

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

I used to skip Veteran Dungeons and Trials in the past because I felt useless in those. Now I have found a great streaming guild (congrats @Raikiki ) who resparked my passion for veteran content due to the very nature of heavy attack builds and including those in groups! I love being able to play with other users without dragging them down.

on what platform is this guild? how is it called?

PC EU - Euer Floheitsgebiet (a german guild)

Auldwulfe

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

jecks33 wrote: »

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

I used to skip Veteran Dungeons and Trials in the past because I felt useless in those. Now I have found a great streaming guild (congrats @Raikiki ) who resparked my passion for veteran content due to the very nature of heavy attack builds and including those in groups! I love being able to play with other users without dragging them down.

on what platform is this guild? how is it called?

PC EU - Euer Floheitsgebiet (a german guild)

I saw two advertised on PCNA last night --- one was True Intellect, or True Intelligence... or similar
I am already in 2 guilds that accept any way you want to play... as long as you work with your teammates and don't argue or start fights...... so I wasn't looking for more.

Auldwulfe

axi

Lumenn wrote: »

axi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

i don't understand why this is a thing this month. these 2 sets have been in the game for years, they are from base dungeons.
oakensoul has been around for a year abouts.

you can make a HA build without oakensoul with 2 bars. It's actually a bit on the funner side.

Oakensoul was changed recently.

But it wasn't. It was changed back in like August. Nerfed in fact. There have been zero changes to it, or anything around the heavy attack builds for like 9 months.

It kinda was. Keep in mind there was like 2-3 months time period where due to block bugs there was a big absence of PvE runs compared to previous months and that it usually takes few months for certain gamechanging things to climb their way. Now add to this fact that complaints about oakensoul heavy attack setups havn't start yesterday but around end of the year and You will have 9 months period filled.

The complaints only happened because content creators recently finally decided to make and post builds around it.

And still, more than 3 patches ago is not recent by any means. The ring has only gotten weaker than when it launched. That is a fact.

Oakensoul was becoming increasingly popular even before content creators started to show it to the public. I've seen lots of people running with it already at the end of 2022. Like with everything gamechaning it needed a time to develop but now when it finally did it's slowly becoming the only reasonable way to play in the early and midgame plus in some parts of the end game. It developed itself rather quickly and that procces is only speeding up.

Calling it the only reasonable way to play is an extreme exaggeration.

Is it though? If a one bar, range, heavy attack setup in a real content is capable to produce 85-100% of single target DPS produced by two bar, meele, light attack setup plus more DPS in AOE while also having better sustain and defense than what is excatly the reason to play two bar setup when it also requires way more practice to be even on pair with one bar heavy attack setup and way way way more practice to surpass them?

Because a two bar setup provides a ton more cushion for mistakes, and self support in content that may be better served with that.

Like, I can 100% guarantee if I am running a vet dungeon on my Two Bar build and the rest of my group goes down, I have a chance to either solo out the rest of a boss encounter, or get a res off. Because it the flexibility of the build provides far more survivability. And on my 1 bar build, if the tank dies and hte healer dies, I'm dead. There is no surviving the encounter, crit surge is awful without a shield to cover the healing, and good luck fitting both of those onto an oaken build.

I've run both a 1 bar build and two bar build through vet vateshran for example. The 2 bar build is leagues ahead in performance, even if the 1 bar build can output more dps on a target dummy. Because you know what you cannot do? You cannot heavy attack while you are blocking mechanics. But, with a shield up on my two bar build, I can ignore a lot of mechanics that would otherwise kill me with only one bar. And still do damage while those mechanics are happening. And with the right setup, I am still doing most of my dps even while blocking because of dots and aoes being active.

That is why I said early, mid and some of the end game not all of the end game. When it comes to "cushion for mistakes" I would say in trials it's one bar heavy attack setup that allows for more of it. With defense it have it allows to sometimes ignore certain mechanics and simplicity of rotation naturally produces less mistakes. Oakensoul is a definition of self support, it gives lots of things that You would normally need to provide Yourself with.

That being said, yes there are places where two bar is still more optimal but more optimal doesn't mean that one bar heavy attack won't work. You gave an example of vet dungeons but the thing is that every dungeon You can solo with two bar setup You can also solo with one bar setup and worse case scenario fight will be just longer. The real game changer that makes soloing easier isn't one or two bars but ring of the pale order but that is only if You go solo from the beggining. Flexibility of two bar setups is helpfull but it isn't game changer. You can fit every crucial component required to complete something on one bar setup either.

I've run all solo arenas and multiple vet DLC HM dungeons solo in both one bar and two bar and the difference isn''t really that staggering. Two bar is just faster but it's because as an experienced player I can squeeze more from it but for less experienced player it doesn't have to be this way. Vateshran and maesltrom are not that hard wheter You are using one bar or two bar. The latter will be just faster if You are more experienced player.

Still all of these doesn't change what I wrote in my previous comment that You quoted. Fact that two bar setups will have limited usage doesnt change a fact that one bar heavy attackl setup right now is a better option for majority of groups in majority of encounters because of reasons I've mentioned. With enough time it have p[otential to become dominating setup especially in mid game.

You're absolutely correct that one bar will be better for a majority of groups. It seems like it's custom MADE for the average player, while the 2 bar(who if we're being honest here has a much BETTER track record/history of avoiding mechanics due to burning content) is still the go to for the score pushers and top tier. I'll disagree on one point though, the flexibility of the 2 bar can indeed be a game changer, specifically when it comes to blocking/dodging. A block doesn't hurt a 2 bar nearly as much as always having to break what's basically a channelled cast all the time. To some of us, that's a pretty big deal.

I mostly agree here however I would like to point out few things. As for two bar builds having better track record in avoiding mechanics we need to keep in mind that this track record applies only to highly experienced players in perfectly optimised groups so it's something completly different from avoiding mechanics due to sheer amount of base defense. As for blocking while I agree it's disadventage of heavy attack setup it needs to be pointed out that there isn't a lot of content in the game where You need to block for extensive periods of time. On paper it seems like a drawback but in reality it really doesn't affect one bar heavy attacks that much. One place i can think of that normally requires some extensive blocking is vHoF HM execute phase but funnily enough setups with oakensoul can build so much more raw defense that with proper support from group they don't even need to block there anymore.

Auldwulfe

axi wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

axi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

i don't understand why this is a thing this month. these 2 sets have been in the game for years, they are from base dungeons.
oakensoul has been around for a year abouts.

you can make a HA build without oakensoul with 2 bars. It's actually a bit on the funner side.

Oakensoul was changed recently.

But it wasn't. It was changed back in like August. Nerfed in fact. There have been zero changes to it, or anything around the heavy attack builds for like 9 months.

It kinda was. Keep in mind there was like 2-3 months time period where due to block bugs there was a big absence of PvE runs compared to previous months and that it usually takes few months for certain gamechanging things to climb their way. Now add to this fact that complaints about oakensoul heavy attack setups havn't start yesterday but around end of the year and You will have 9 months period filled.

The complaints only happened because content creators recently finally decided to make and post builds around it.

And still, more than 3 patches ago is not recent by any means. The ring has only gotten weaker than when it launched. That is a fact.

Oakensoul was becoming increasingly popular even before content creators started to show it to the public. I've seen lots of people running with it already at the end of 2022. Like with everything gamechaning it needed a time to develop but now when it finally did it's slowly becoming the only reasonable way to play in the early and midgame plus in some parts of the end game. It developed itself rather quickly and that procces is only speeding up.

Calling it the only reasonable way to play is an extreme exaggeration.

Is it though? If a one bar, range, heavy attack setup in a real content is capable to produce 85-100% of single target DPS produced by two bar, meele, light attack setup plus more DPS in AOE while also having better sustain and defense than what is excatly the reason to play two bar setup when it also requires way more practice to be even on pair with one bar heavy attack setup and way way way more practice to surpass them?

Because a two bar setup provides a ton more cushion for mistakes, and self support in content that may be better served with that.

Like, I can 100% guarantee if I am running a vet dungeon on my Two Bar build and the rest of my group goes down, I have a chance to either solo out the rest of a boss encounter, or get a res off. Because it the flexibility of the build provides far more survivability. And on my 1 bar build, if the tank dies and hte healer dies, I'm dead. There is no surviving the encounter, crit surge is awful without a shield to cover the healing, and good luck fitting both of those onto an oaken build.

I've run both a 1 bar build and two bar build through vet vateshran for example. The 2 bar build is leagues ahead in performance, even if the 1 bar build can output more dps on a target dummy. Because you know what you cannot do? You cannot heavy attack while you are blocking mechanics. But, with a shield up on my two bar build, I can ignore a lot of mechanics that would otherwise kill me with only one bar. And still do damage while those mechanics are happening. And with the right setup, I am still doing most of my dps even while blocking because of dots and aoes being active.

That is why I said early, mid and some of the end game not all of the end game. When it comes to "cushion for mistakes" I would say in trials it's one bar heavy attack setup that allows for more of it. With defense it have it allows to sometimes ignore certain mechanics and simplicity of rotation naturally produces less mistakes. Oakensoul is a definition of self support, it gives lots of things that You would normally need to provide Yourself with.

That being said, yes there are places where two bar is still more optimal but more optimal doesn't mean that one bar heavy attack won't work. You gave an example of vet dungeons but the thing is that every dungeon You can solo with two bar setup You can also solo with one bar setup and worse case scenario fight will be just longer. The real game changer that makes soloing easier isn't one or two bars but ring of the pale order but that is only if You go solo from the beggining. Flexibility of two bar setups is helpfull but it isn't game changer. You can fit every crucial component required to complete something on one bar setup either.

I've run all solo arenas and multiple vet DLC HM dungeons solo in both one bar and two bar and the difference isn''t really that staggering. Two bar is just faster but it's because as an experienced player I can squeeze more from it but for less experienced player it doesn't have to be this way. Vateshran and maesltrom are not that hard wheter You are using one bar or two bar. The latter will be just faster if You are more experienced player.

Still all of these doesn't change what I wrote in my previous comment that You quoted. Fact that two bar setups will have limited usage doesnt change a fact that one bar heavy attackl setup right now is a better option for majority of groups in majority of encounters because of reasons I've mentioned. With enough time it have p[otential to become dominating setup especially in mid game.

You're absolutely correct that one bar will be better for a majority of groups. It seems like it's custom MADE for the average player, while the 2 bar(who if we're being honest here has a much BETTER track record/history of avoiding mechanics due to burning content) is still the go to for the score pushers and top tier. I'll disagree on one point though, the flexibility of the 2 bar can indeed be a game changer, specifically when it comes to blocking/dodging. A block doesn't hurt a 2 bar nearly as much as always having to break what's basically a channelled cast all the time. To some of us, that's a pretty big deal.

I mostly agree here however I would like to point out few things. As for two bar builds having better track record in avoiding mechanics we need to keep in mind that this track record applies only to highly experienced players in perfectly optimised groups so it's something completly different from avoiding mechanics due to sheer amount of base defense. As for blocking while I agree it's disadventage of heavy attack setup it needs to be pointed out that there isn't a lot of content in the game where You need to block for extensive periods of time. On paper it seems like a drawback but in reality it really doesn't affect one bar heavy attacks that much. One place i can think of that normally requires some extensive blocking is vHoF HM execute phase but funnily enough setups with oakensoul can build so much more raw defense that with proper support from group they don't even need to block there anymore.

Exactly, with proper support from a group -- my tank can survive the one shot kill in Falkreath.... I have done it, as long as I have a good team .... can't do it with Oakensoul and a less capable team, I tried it.......

And the heavy attack one bar has existed long before Oakensoul... it is just popular, now, due to clickbait creators looking to get pre-U35 viewers back.....
I've used one for 18 months... both with, and without Oakensoul.... he survives better without Oakensoul, as I then use Crit Surge for the 20% damage bonus, and I get additional constant healing, which keeps me up quite easily with a 60% crit rate....

it's a tool, provided by the game, and paid for by subscriptions..... in the end, even if they nerf the player base, as people are calling for (and yes, losing the ring will probably cost players... since they won't be able to do content anymore, that they are paying for) - the HA lightning build isn't going anywhere.....

Auldwulfe

Flangdoodle

Said it before, saying it again now: the way to close the skill gap is not through tinkering "under the hood" of the game, or by introducing new weapon/armor/jewelry sets, it's by teaching people how to use the stuff that already exists in game.

The tutorials are shamefully scarce, and **none** of them teach game mechanics.* More shameful still is that the devs have clearly entertained this idea and rejected it. How do we know? Ever listen to the "encouragement" that companions mutter when you're in a fight? "Break free!" "Wait for your magicka/stamina to restore!" "Drink a potion!" etc.

To an objective observer it appears as if companions were a test to see if they could create tutorials, which were later abandoned and then repackaged as content to recoup expenses. Yeah, I said it.

You can't have it both ways - either you spend time and resources to teach people how to play your game so that the less naturally skilled have an avenue to become better, or you have a skill gap. Relying on new item sets won't fix the issue, it'll only exacerbate it b/c (as others have stated) the skilled players can use it too.

*The lone exception is the Volundrung tutorial in the Cheesemonger's Hollow in Cyrodiil. It's not perfect, but it's a shining example of how tutorials could work in this game. Imagine if you could do the same thing for every skill line that you do for Volendrung? I.E. if you could learn to use each skill slot individually - and go back to practice using it anytime you want? It would be truly game changing in both the literal and figurative sense.

To the OP's point: I appreciate and agree that inclusion is important (and is in fact somewhat legally required under the Americans with Disabilities Act) but addressing disabilities through content that everyone else uses is a mistake IMO, and I can't imagine that it was the intent behind creating Oakensoul. Glad it has helped you, but it was likely just a beneficial side effect.

Billium813

@Flangdoodle

What combat mechanics do you think players are uninformed about and a tutorial would benefit players about?

I'm guessing the "obvious" response would be "LA weaving" and "Global Cooldowns". However, I would argue that those things are too nuanced to be part of an immersive, in game tutorial. I think the better path to success on these would be to make the importance to players to know these things less important!

> if you could learn to use each skill slot individually
I'm not sure I understand. What is the benefit of a tutorial on how to use each skill slot? Is there a legit issue with players not understanding how to press keys?

Flangdoodle

Billium813 wrote: »

@Flangdoodle

What combat mechanics do you think players are uninformed about and a tutorial would benefit players about?

I'm guessing the "obvious" response would be "LA weaving" and "Global Cooldowns". However, I would argue that those things are too nuanced to be part of an immersive, in game tutorial. I think the better path to success on these would be to make the importance to players to know these things less important!

> if you could learn to use each skill slot individually
I'm not sure I understand. What is the benefit of a tutorial on how to use each skill slot? Is there a legit issue with players not understanding how to press keys?

"How to press keys." Cute. So all you need to know to drive a car is turn the key to start the ignition and put it in gear? C'mon, man.

Try to put yourself in the place of someone who has never played this game, or remember back to when you were just beginning. Where did you learn e.g. that heavy attacks restore resources? How did you learn what "execute" skills are and when to use them? How did you decide what skills to put on your bar(s)? I get that some of this stuff is either intuitive or can be learned through trial and error, but it isnt necessarily intuitive for everyone. (wasn't for me) and if you just assume everyone knows stuff like that, like I said, you'll end up with a skill gap. As far as animation canceling is concerned, they've indicated that they either can't or won't fix it and intentional or not it's in the game. Moreover, it's now such a part of basic mechanics that if you don't know how to do it - again, skill gap.

Have you done the Volundrung tutorial? You go through each skill on the hammer's bar individually. You are told what they're for and you get the chance to use them and see them in action before you go on to the next one. You can also return to Cheesemonger's Hollow any time you want to practice just those skills.

"I think the better path to success on these would be to make the importance to players to know these things less important!"

So just dumb it all down? Or going back to my analogy above - why teach people how and when to use turn signals? Let's just make all roads straight and with one lane?

Billium813

Flangdoodle wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

@Flangdoodle

What combat mechanics do you think players are uninformed about and a tutorial would benefit players about?

I'm guessing the "obvious" response would be "LA weaving" and "Global Cooldowns". However, I would argue that those things are too nuanced to be part of an immersive, in game tutorial. I think the better path to success on these would be to make the importance to players to know these things less important!

> if you could learn to use each skill slot individually
I'm not sure I understand. What is the benefit of a tutorial on how to use each skill slot? Is there a legit issue with players not understanding how to press keys?

"How to press keys." Cute. So all you need to know to drive a car is turn the key to start the ignition and put it in gear? C'mon, man.

Try to put yourself in the place of someone who has never played this game, or remember back to when you were just beginning. Where did you learn e.g. that heavy attacks restore resources? How did you learn what "execute" skills are and when to use them? How did you decide what skills to put on your bar(s)? I get that some of this stuff is either intuitive or can be learned through trial and error, but it isnt necessarily intuitive for everyone. (wasn't for me) and if you just assume everyone knows stuff like that, like I said, you'll end up with a skill gap. As far as animation canceling is concerned, they've indicated that they either can't or won't fix it and intentional or not it's in the game. Moreover, it's now such a part of basic mechanics that if you don't know how to do it - again, skill gap.

Have you done the Volundrung tutorial? You go through each skill on the hammer's bar individually. You are told what they're for and you get the chance to use them and see them in action before you go on to the next one. You can also return to Cheesemonger's Hollow any time you want to practice just those skills.

"I think the better path to success on these would be to make the importance to players to know these things less important!"

So just dumb it all down? Or going back to my analogy above - why teach people how and when to use turn signals? Let's just make all roads straight and with one lane?

I honestly wasn't trying to be cute, I'm trying to understand what you are looking for. I think the Harborage story quests do a great job of explaining things like AOE damages, where to stand, interrupting, HA telegraphs. I'm legit just wondering what you want to teach players with more advanced tutorials.

> Where did you learn e.g. that heavy attacks restore resources?

I would like to see ESO have some kind of an animation that demonstrates resources and Ultimate generated from HAs. Something like a whispy cloud of green or blue being pulled to you from the HA hit. Or bright yellow lights jumping to you for Ultimate.

Is there no tutorial that mentions this? It is just kind of a "lesson you learn along the way" type thing... *shrug* I'd be surprised if this isn't mentioned in the introduction quest lines, but I haven't done that in many many years.

> How did you learn what "execute" skills are and when to use them?

I still don't know why I should care about them that much. You want a tutorial to tell you when you should use Radiant Oppression? The description literally says "... to enemies below 50%"; it kind of explains itself. You want a tutorial to tell players they have to run, or should run, an "execute" ability? That sounds like it goes against the "play however you want" rhetoric and sounds really strict for players to be told.

> How did you decide what skills to put on your bar(s)?

Based on the things the skills do, a bit of what builds I saw online use, and what I am looking to do by playing the game. I mean, how can a tutorial explain what every skill does and when it's best to slot it? The Skill description explains what it does. You want a tutorial to tell you what is BiS? A tutorial to tell players what they're lacking and what skills to use? I guess an AI could give suggestions and ESOs ingame build suggestions are a joke, but a tutorial doesn't need to explain that.

> As far as animation canceling is concerned, they've indicated that they either can't or won't fix it and intentional or not it's in the game. Moreover, it's now such a part of basic mechanics that if you don't know how to do it - again, skill gap.

Ya, I'mma disagree with that. Are you trying to make tutorials on how players can be score pushers? Animation canceling, attack weaving, global cooldowns... I would hardly argue that these things are NOT "part of basic mechanics". Those things are there for players to discover if they ever get to the "end game" and care to learn them. They SHOULDN'T be necessary unless you are trying to be in that top 5%, which isn't who a "tutorial" should be targeted at. If they are "mandatory" for content like Trials or Vet dungeons, then the issue is probably the group demanding them, or the content difficulty itself, or something more fundamentally wrong with the build that you are trying to overcome by forcing incredibly minor, and high level niche gameplay like weaving or animation canceling.

---

Listen, I'm being semi-pedantic. I think there are plenty of things the game should explain to players more. For instance, what is Resistance, how Penetration works, what Resistances enemies have, what the Crit cap is, what "Over Penetration" means, how mitigation works.

These ARE "fundamental" game aspects that are mostly hidden from players and cause TONS of confusion even though they are incredibly important to know (and not just for score pushing or end game play). However, most of these don't need a tutorial. They could put Armor bars under enemies health bars to show resistances. They could have an "over penetration", or crit cap, alert. Or just clean up sets and skills to use a more aligned diction.

Flangdoodle

Well I guess well just have to disagree then. What other "high level niche gameplay" do they mention in loading screen tips? I think you might have the wrong idea about just how ubiquitous animation canceling or light attack weaving or whatever one calls it is. It has nothing to do with scoring, it's a damage multiplier, and if they're going to mention it in basic tips they should be teaching people how to do it.

AcadianPaladin

Optional training for players sounds like a neat additional job for the Undaunted.

isadoraisacat

I have severe carpel tunnel and will
Eventually need surgery. I literally can not do light attack weaving for very long without it being painful.
I spent hours practicing weaving and I got good at it but due to my physical issues it’s not fun to do as it’s painful on my hands.

With a heavy attack build I can enjoy the game with out pain. I’m mostly a solo player and do some group normal dungeons and this helped me be able to actually help the group and hold my own.

I don’t see the problem with oakensoul. I still don’t have super high dps but I can now do enough to hold my own without having to push my hands way past the limit.

There are still players with 2 bar set ups doing more damage and still utilizing skills
Etc etc I don’t know why people are bother by how other people play the game. It doesn’t affect their accomplishments.

Faulgor

What I wanted Heavy Attack builds to be: Like normal builds, but with heavy instead of light attacks in rotation

What I got: Only build for Heavy Attacks, only use Heavy Attacks.

It's kinda stupid. It's not like you have to build for light attack damage for a light attack build, right? Yet for HA builds you need 2 sets that only boost HA damage and a buff that boosts your HA damage by 80 freaking percent. I wish there was more variety here, as well as in the weapon types used for HA builds.

Upside is that the PUGs I run with seem more consistent.

LunarBay

isadoraisacat wrote: »

I have severe carpel tunnel and will
Eventually need surgery. I literally can not do light attack weaving for very long without it being painful.
I spent hours practicing weaving and I got good at it but due to my physical issues it’s not fun to do as it’s painful on my hands.

With a heavy attack build I can enjoy the game with out pain. I’m mostly a solo player and do some group normal dungeons and this helped me be able to actually help the group and hold my own.

I don’t see the problem with oakensoul. I still don’t have super high dps but I can now do enough to hold my own without having to push my hands way past the limit.

There are still players with 2 bar set ups doing more damage and still utilizing skills
Etc etc I don’t know why people are bother by how other people play the game. It doesn’t affect their accomplishments.

The emergence of oakensoul has destroyed the class relationship between senior and junior players. oakensoul's emergence allows junior players to do what they want to do freely. And no longer need to rely on something ...... So this is where people argue endlessly.

LunaFlora

LunarBay wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

I have severe carpel tunnel and will
Eventually need surgery. I literally can not do light attack weaving for very long without it being painful.
I spent hours practicing weaving and I got good at it but due to my physical issues it’s not fun to do as it’s painful on my hands.

With a heavy attack build I can enjoy the game with out pain. I’m mostly a solo player and do some group normal dungeons and this helped me be able to actually help the group and hold my own.

I don’t see the problem with oakensoul. I still don’t have super high dps but I can now do enough to hold my own without having to push my hands way past the limit.

There are still players with 2 bar set ups doing more damage and still utilizing skills
Etc etc I don’t know why people are bother by how other people play the game. It doesn’t affect their accomplishments.

The emergence of oakensoul has destroyed the class relationship between senior and junior players. oakensoul's emergence allows junior players to do what they want to do freely. And no longer need to rely on something ...... So this is where people argue endlessly.

what does junior and senior have to do with this? physical issues arent exclusive to seniors

Agenericname

LunarBay wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

I have severe carpel tunnel and will
Eventually need surgery. I literally can not do light attack weaving for very long without it being painful.
I spent hours practicing weaving and I got good at it but due to my physical issues it’s not fun to do as it’s painful on my hands.

With a heavy attack build I can enjoy the game with out pain. I’m mostly a solo player and do some group normal dungeons and this helped me be able to actually help the group and hold my own.

I don’t see the problem with oakensoul. I still don’t have super high dps but I can now do enough to hold my own without having to push my hands way past the limit.

There are still players with 2 bar set ups doing more damage and still utilizing skills
Etc etc I don’t know why people are bother by how other people play the game. It doesn’t affect their accomplishments.

The emergence of oakensoul has destroyed the class relationship between senior and junior players. oakensoul's emergence allows junior players to do what they want to do freely. And no longer need to rely on something ...... So this is where people argue endlessly.

That was probably the point.

Marcus684

All of these players denigrating oakenbuilds, claiming that they put out equal or greater numbers compared to 2-bar builds, must not be very good at weaving/animation canceling. It's been shown over and over again that a well-designed and well-played 2-bar build will consistently put out significantly higher damage numbers than even the best oakenbuild. IMO the haters either just can't accept that they're wrong about the numbers, or that they actually fall into the category of players that would benefit most from an oakenbuild and this upsets them somehow.

I guess there is a 3rd option, that they just can't stand the idea that players that they see as "beneath" them in terms of skill can close the gap with Oakensoul, but no one would be that fragile and petty.

LunaFlora

Marcus684 wrote: »

All of these players denigrating oakenbuilds, claiming that they put out equal or greater numbers compared to 2-bar builds, must not be very good at weaving/animation canceling. It's been shown over and over again that a well-designed and well-played 2-bar build will consistently put out significantly higher damage numbers than even the best oakenbuild. IMO the haters either just can't accept that they're wrong about the numbers, or that they actually fall into the category of players that would benefit most from an oakenbuild and this upsets them somehow.

I guess there is a 3rd option, that they just can't stand the idea that players that they see as "beneath" them in terms of skill can close the gap with Oakensoul, but no one would be that fragile and petty.

i believe there definitely are some people that are that fragile and petty sadly

isadoraisacat

LunarBay wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

I have severe carpel tunnel and will
Eventually need surgery. I literally can not do light attack weaving for very long without it being painful.
I spent hours practicing weaving and I got good at it but due to my physical issues it’s not fun to do as it’s painful on my hands.

With a heavy attack build I can enjoy the game with out pain. I’m mostly a solo player and do some group normal dungeons and this helped me be able to actually help the group and hold my own.

I don’t see the problem with oakensoul. I still don’t have super high dps but I can now do enough to hold my own without having to push my hands way past the limit.

There are still players with 2 bar set ups doing more damage and still utilizing skills
Etc etc I don’t know why people are bother by how other people play the game. It doesn’t affect their accomplishments.

The emergence of oakensoul has destroyed the class relationship between senior and junior players. oakensoul's emergence allows junior players to do what they want to do freely. And no longer need to rely on something ...... So this is where people argue endlessly.

Trust “junior”
Players whatever that is aren’t playing these sort of builds. I have seen so many players using 2 bars and managing so many dots and still light attacking weaving. I’m still the lowest dps in my groups but I’m now just efficient.


I’m 41 not 81.

This comes off very elitist almost like you don’t want players with disabilities or with coordination problems or older players “senior” as to say playing the game. You’d rather then struggle and have a bad time so you can still brag about how good you are. That seems really crappy.

Auldwulfe

isadoraisacat wrote: »

LunarBay wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

I have severe carpel tunnel and will
Eventually need surgery. I literally can not do light attack weaving for very long without it being painful.
I spent hours practicing weaving and I got good at it but due to my physical issues it’s not fun to do as it’s painful on my hands.

With a heavy attack build I can enjoy the game with out pain. I’m mostly a solo player and do some group normal dungeons and this helped me be able to actually help the group and hold my own.

I don’t see the problem with oakensoul. I still don’t have super high dps but I can now do enough to hold my own without having to push my hands way past the limit.

There are still players with 2 bar set ups doing more damage and still utilizing skills
Etc etc I don’t know why people are bother by how other people play the game. It doesn’t affect their accomplishments.

The emergence of oakensoul has destroyed the class relationship between senior and junior players. oakensoul's emergence allows junior players to do what they want to do freely. And no longer need to rely on something ...... So this is where people argue endlessly.

Trust “junior”
Players whatever that is aren’t playing these sort of builds. I have seen so many players using 2 bars and managing so many dots and still light attacking weaving. I’m still the lowest dps in my groups but I’m now just efficient.


I’m 41 not 81.

This comes off very elitist almost like you don’t want players with disabilities or with coordination problems or older players “senior” as to say playing the game. You’d rather then struggle and have a bad time so you can still brag about how good you are. That seems really crappy.

Best part is that I do a one bar sorc build, without Oakensoul, that I created 18 months ago, before Oakensoul actually existed...and my rotation is rarely more than a single button.
Sergeant's mail for the boost, but only as my staves and jewelry, Slimecraw in medium, both pieces, and Queen's Elegance as my 5 piece light to enhance crit and pen.... with thief Mundus, for more crit.....

My skills are Crit Surge - which I hit once every 33 seconds for Major Brutality and Major Sorcery... usually earlier, to be honest, so I keep that up 100%... any of the Hunter skills -- doesn't matter which, you rarely hit it for anything... it's there solely for the passive Major Savagery, and Major Prophecy..... and to boost the Fighter guild damage and Ultimate passives.....
Daedric Prey, which I only use on boss monsters, the rest don't survive long enough to matter..... and both pets.. with Flawless Dawnbreaker... it's not like I use my ultimate a lot.... and that counts as a fighter skill, so more damage from the guild passive on my normal attacks.

Queen's Elegance is a 99% uptime on Empower, when using heavy attacks... so I have that... I go with Imperial as a race, and stack my points into stamina, as hybrid means I get max damage that way, with the Imperial Racials.. and since I use heavy attacks, low magicka is not a detriment, especially as I can dodge and block as much as I want..... and I boost my health, with both the imperial racials, and some glyphs....
I am incredibly Tanky, as I run 35k health, and 38K stamina --- magicka is only 18K, but again, heavy attacks don't care on that, and are scaling off the stamina.
As a bonus, with an over 50% chance to crit, I am usually critting once per second on a pulse, so Crit Surge gives me back 3300 health about every second... Slime Craw helps the crit and gives me 5% damage, with 2 medium armor giving me 4% more, and the fighter passive giving me 6% more on top of the Sorc damage bonus.
Damage matches the Oakensoul bulds, doesn't need the ring... and, if I really wanted to, I can add a couple DOTs on the back bar, but it is pretty effective, as is.

If people keep screaming to get the ring nerfed.. this could be a solid alternative, as it gives you, more or less, everything the ring does.

Auldwulfe

isadoraisacat

Auldwulfe wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

LunarBay wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

I have severe carpel tunnel and will
Eventually need surgery. I literally can not do light attack weaving for very long without it being painful.
I spent hours practicing weaving and I got good at it but due to my physical issues it’s not fun to do as it’s painful on my hands.

With a heavy attack build I can enjoy the game with out pain. I’m mostly a solo player and do some group normal dungeons and this helped me be able to actually help the group and hold my own.

I don’t see the problem with oakensoul. I still don’t have super high dps but I can now do enough to hold my own without having to push my hands way past the limit.

There are still players with 2 bar set ups doing more damage and still utilizing skills
Etc etc I don’t know why people are bother by how other people play the game. It doesn’t affect their accomplishments.

The emergence of oakensoul has destroyed the class relationship between senior and junior players. oakensoul's emergence allows junior players to do what they want to do freely. And no longer need to rely on something ...... So this is where people argue endlessly.

Trust “junior”
Players whatever that is aren’t playing these sort of builds. I have seen so many players using 2 bars and managing so many dots and still light attacking weaving. I’m still the lowest dps in my groups but I’m now just efficient.


I’m 41 not 81.

This comes off very elitist almost like you don’t want players with disabilities or with coordination problems or older players “senior” as to say playing the game. You’d rather then struggle and have a bad time so you can still brag about how good you are. That seems really crappy.

Best part is that I do a one bar sorc build, without Oakensoul, that I created 18 months ago, before Oakensoul actually existed...and my rotation is rarely more than a single button.
Sergeant's mail for the boost, but only as my staves and jewelry, Slimecraw in medium, both pieces, and Queen's Elegance as my 5 piece light to enhance crit and pen.... with thief Mundus, for more crit.....

My skills are Crit Surge - which I hit once every 33 seconds for Major Brutality and Major Sorcery... usually earlier, to be honest, so I keep that up 100%... any of the Hunter skills -- doesn't matter which, you rarely hit it for anything... it's there solely for the passive Major Savagery, and Major Prophecy..... and to boost the Fighter guild damage and Ultimate passives.....
Daedric Prey, which I only use on boss monsters, the rest don't survive long enough to matter..... and both pets.. with Flawless Dawnbreaker... it's not like I use my ultimate a lot.... and that counts as a fighter skill, so more damage from the guild passive on my normal attacks.

Queen's Elegance is a 99% uptime on Empower, when using heavy attacks... so I have that... I go with Imperial as a race, and stack my points into stamina, as hybrid means I get max damage that way, with the Imperial Racials.. and since I use heavy attacks, low magicka is not a detriment, especially as I can dodge and block as much as I want..... and I boost my health, with both the imperial racials, and some glyphs....
I am incredibly Tanky, as I run 35k health, and 38K stamina --- magicka is only 18K, but again, heavy attacks don't care on that, and are scaling off the stamina.
As a bonus, with an over 50% chance to crit, I am usually critting once per second on a pulse, so Crit Surge gives me back 3300 health about every second... Slime Craw helps the crit and gives me 5% damage, with 2 medium armor giving me 4% more, and the fighter passive giving me 6% more on top of the Sorc damage bonus.
Damage matches the Oakensoul bulds, doesn't need the ring... and, if I really wanted to, I can add a couple DOTs on the back bar, but it is pretty effective, as is.

If people keep screaming to get the ring nerfed.. this could be a solid alternative, as it gives you, more or less, everything the ring does.

Auldwulfe

Yeah well after the last patch notes we gonna need to look into an alternative. [Snip]

[Edited for bait and conspiracy theories]

Galeriano

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

LunarBay wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

I have severe carpel tunnel and will
Eventually need surgery. I literally can not do light attack weaving for very long without it being painful.
I spent hours practicing weaving and I got good at it but due to my physical issues it’s not fun to do as it’s painful on my hands.

With a heavy attack build I can enjoy the game with out pain. I’m mostly a solo player and do some group normal dungeons and this helped me be able to actually help the group and hold my own.

I don’t see the problem with oakensoul. I still don’t have super high dps but I can now do enough to hold my own without having to push my hands way past the limit.

There are still players with 2 bar set ups doing more damage and still utilizing skills
Etc etc I don’t know why people are bother by how other people play the game. It doesn’t affect their accomplishments.

The emergence of oakensoul has destroyed the class relationship between senior and junior players. oakensoul's emergence allows junior players to do what they want to do freely. And no longer need to rely on something ...... So this is where people argue endlessly.

Trust “junior”
Players whatever that is aren’t playing these sort of builds. I have seen so many players using 2 bars and managing so many dots and still light attacking weaving. I’m still the lowest dps in my groups but I’m now just efficient.


I’m 41 not 81.

This comes off very elitist almost like you don’t want players with disabilities or with coordination problems or older players “senior” as to say playing the game. You’d rather then struggle and have a bad time so you can still brag about how good you are. That seems really crappy.

Best part is that I do a one bar sorc build, without Oakensoul, that I created 18 months ago, before Oakensoul actually existed...and my rotation is rarely more than a single button.
Sergeant's mail for the boost, but only as my staves and jewelry, Slimecraw in medium, both pieces, and Queen's Elegance as my 5 piece light to enhance crit and pen.... with thief Mundus, for more crit.....

My skills are Crit Surge - which I hit once every 33 seconds for Major Brutality and Major Sorcery... usually earlier, to be honest, so I keep that up 100%... any of the Hunter skills -- doesn't matter which, you rarely hit it for anything... it's there solely for the passive Major Savagery, and Major Prophecy..... and to boost the Fighter guild damage and Ultimate passives.....
Daedric Prey, which I only use on boss monsters, the rest don't survive long enough to matter..... and both pets.. with Flawless Dawnbreaker... it's not like I use my ultimate a lot.... and that counts as a fighter skill, so more damage from the guild passive on my normal attacks.

Queen's Elegance is a 99% uptime on Empower, when using heavy attacks... so I have that... I go with Imperial as a race, and stack my points into stamina, as hybrid means I get max damage that way, with the Imperial Racials.. and since I use heavy attacks, low magicka is not a detriment, especially as I can dodge and block as much as I want..... and I boost my health, with both the imperial racials, and some glyphs....
I am incredibly Tanky, as I run 35k health, and 38K stamina --- magicka is only 18K, but again, heavy attacks don't care on that, and are scaling off the stamina.
As a bonus, with an over 50% chance to crit, I am usually critting once per second on a pulse, so Crit Surge gives me back 3300 health about every second... Slime Craw helps the crit and gives me 5% damage, with 2 medium armor giving me 4% more, and the fighter passive giving me 6% more on top of the Sorc damage bonus.
Damage matches the Oakensoul bulds, doesn't need the ring... and, if I really wanted to, I can add a couple DOTs on the back bar, but it is pretty effective, as is.

If people keep screaming to get the ring nerfed.. this could be a solid alternative, as it gives you, more or less, everything the ring does.

Auldwulfe

Yeah well after the last patch notes we gonna need to look into an alternative. [Snip].

No need for an alternatives. Current setup will be still more than enough to do all veteran and most of the hard mode content in the game. Nerfs to empower and storm master are not really that big of a deal considering one bar heavy attack setups are producing multiple times more dmg than it is needed to complete overwhelming majority of content.

[Edited quote]

isadoraisacat

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

LunarBay wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

I have severe carpel tunnel and will
Eventually need surgery. I literally can not do light attack weaving for very long without it being painful.
I spent hours practicing weaving and I got good at it but due to my physical issues it’s not fun to do as it’s painful on my hands.

With a heavy attack build I can enjoy the game with out pain. I’m mostly a solo player and do some group normal dungeons and this helped me be able to actually help the group and hold my own.

I don’t see the problem with oakensoul. I still don’t have super high dps but I can now do enough to hold my own without having to push my hands way past the limit.

There are still players with 2 bar set ups doing more damage and still utilizing skills
Etc etc I don’t know why people are bother by how other people play the game. It doesn’t affect their accomplishments.

The emergence of oakensoul has destroyed the class relationship between senior and junior players. oakensoul's emergence allows junior players to do what they want to do freely. And no longer need to rely on something ...... So this is where people argue endlessly.

Trust “junior”
Players whatever that is aren’t playing these sort of builds. I have seen so many players using 2 bars and managing so many dots and still light attacking weaving. I’m still the lowest dps in my groups but I’m now just efficient.


I’m 41 not 81.

This comes off very elitist almost like you don’t want players with disabilities or with coordination problems or older players “senior” as to say playing the game. You’d rather then struggle and have a bad time so you can still brag about how good you are. That seems really crappy.

Best part is that I do a one bar sorc build, without Oakensoul, that I created 18 months ago, before Oakensoul actually existed...and my rotation is rarely more than a single button.
Sergeant's mail for the boost, but only as my staves and jewelry, Slimecraw in medium, both pieces, and Queen's Elegance as my 5 piece light to enhance crit and pen.... with thief Mundus, for more crit.....

My skills are Crit Surge - which I hit once every 33 seconds for Major Brutality and Major Sorcery... usually earlier, to be honest, so I keep that up 100%... any of the Hunter skills -- doesn't matter which, you rarely hit it for anything... it's there solely for the passive Major Savagery, and Major Prophecy..... and to boost the Fighter guild damage and Ultimate passives.....
Daedric Prey, which I only use on boss monsters, the rest don't survive long enough to matter..... and both pets.. with Flawless Dawnbreaker... it's not like I use my ultimate a lot.... and that counts as a fighter skill, so more damage from the guild passive on my normal attacks.

Queen's Elegance is a 99% uptime on Empower, when using heavy attacks... so I have that... I go with Imperial as a race, and stack my points into stamina, as hybrid means I get max damage that way, with the Imperial Racials.. and since I use heavy attacks, low magicka is not a detriment, especially as I can dodge and block as much as I want..... and I boost my health, with both the imperial racials, and some glyphs....
I am incredibly Tanky, as I run 35k health, and 38K stamina --- magicka is only 18K, but again, heavy attacks don't care on that, and are scaling off the stamina.
As a bonus, with an over 50% chance to crit, I am usually critting once per second on a pulse, so Crit Surge gives me back 3300 health about every second... Slime Craw helps the crit and gives me 5% damage, with 2 medium armor giving me 4% more, and the fighter passive giving me 6% more on top of the Sorc damage bonus.
Damage matches the Oakensoul bulds, doesn't need the ring... and, if I really wanted to, I can add a couple DOTs on the back bar, but it is pretty effective, as is.

If people keep screaming to get the ring nerfed.. this could be a solid alternative, as it gives you, more or less, everything the ring does.

Auldwulfe

Yeah well after the last patch notes we gonna need to look into an alternative. [Snip]

No need for an alternatives. Current setup will be still more than enough to do all veteran and most of the hard mode content in the game. Nerf to empower and storm master are not really that big of a deal copnsidering one bar heavy attack setups are producing multiple times more dmg than it is needed to complete overwhelming majority of content.

Hopefully that’s true I struggled with dps and this is why i switched to this build. I have hand issued and literally can not weave or do a lot of repetitive hand motions for a long time. I’m not a very high dps as it is with this set up but much higher than before. If this brings down dps I will definitely still be a very low level. So it definitely will affect a lot of players who are more causal / older and disabled who aren’t “hardcore” I don’t think these issues were thought through for all demographics. Even after get surgery on my hands I still won’t be like I was in my 20s.

[Edited quote]

isadoraisacat

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

Auldwulfe

Yeah well after the last patch notes we gonna need to look into an alternative. [Snip] [/quote]


[Snip], this change basically excludes all heavy attack users from new vet trial well done ZOS , not heavy attack sets either , noble duelist next best option but close range only .....
[/quote]


I am using storm master / sergeant I just hit cp600 and oakensoul and slim craw monster set (I had someone help me through that as my only vet I have done ) and I’m at 25k dps if this goes through I will be back to very low dps. I was so happy to be able to solo world bosses and do normal dungeons like everyone else and not be “carried” now I’m back to nothing again. They aren’t considering some of us people have hand issues and literally can not weave or do any repetitive hand motions for hours.

I worked as a machinist and that’s how I got carpel tunnel. It even hurts to type on my phone. Im getting surgery soon but who knows how much it will
Help.

[Snip] I will Never hit 100 dps and that’s fine I was happy with my 25-30 k dps.

[Edited quote and baiting/conspiracy theory]

Auldwulfe

We all knew that it was going to be nerfed, [Snip].....
Oakensoul was there to sell High Isle... but they can't risk it interfering with the Arcanist selling Necrom..... There was never a doubt that they would nerf something, so that the Arcanist can be the winning class... no challengers allowed, when money is to be made.


My non-Oakensoul build is pretty much still right where it was... yeah, I lose a couple k of damage from the heavy attacks, but Daedric Prey and my pets are still the same.... so get used to the flappies, people......
In the long run, having already had a friend do a test on PTS.... my parse goes from 76K to about 74K... and the in combat went from 37.6K to about 36.8K or so.... still just the one button every 33 seconds...... And Daedric Prey on the biggest critters... and since it's actually 2 bar, albeit identical front and back... you can flip staves in the face of anyone whining about Oakensoul builds......

Auldwulfe

[Edited for bait]

Auldwulfe

Eventually, ZOS will learn a business term.... Net Promoter Score.... it's the word of mouth answers to the question, would you buy this product again.... positive scores mean the person will not only buy again, but tell others .. negatives... well, the world is full of failed companies that didn't take negative Promoter Scores into consideration.

Auldwulfe

isadoraisacat

Auldwulfe wrote: »

We all knew that it was going to be nerfed, [Snip]....
Oakensoul was there to sell High Isle... but they can't risk it interfering with the Arcanist selling Necrom..... There was never a doubt that they would nerf something, so that the Arcanist can be the winning class... no challengers allowed, when money is to be made.


My non-Oakensoul build is pretty much still right where it was... yeah, I lose a couple k of damage from the heavy attacks, but Daedric Prey and my pets are still the same.... so get used to the flappies, people......
In the long run, having already had a friend do a test on PTS.... my parse goes from 76K to about 74K... and the in combat went from 37.6K to about 36.8K or so.... still just the one button every 33 seconds...... And Daedric Prey on the biggest critters... and since it's actually 2 bar, albeit identical front and back... you can flip staves in the face of anyone whining about Oakensoul builds......

Auldwulfe

Yeah basically it’s gonna force me into being a 2 bar build again to compensate. It’s funny becuase I’m not interesting in arcanist looks cool but isn’t for me.

[Edited quote]

Auldwulfe

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

We all knew that it was going to be nerfed, [Snip]....
Oakensoul was there to sell High Isle... but they can't risk it interfering with the Arcanist selling Necrom..... There was never a doubt that they would nerf something, so that the Arcanist can be the winning class... no challengers allowed, when money is to be made.


My non-Oakensoul build is pretty much still right where it was... yeah, I lose a couple k of damage from the heavy attacks, but Daedric Prey and my pets are still the same.... so get used to the flappies, people......
In the long run, having already had a friend do a test on PTS.... my parse goes from 76K to about 74K... and the in combat went from 37.6K to about 36.8K or so.... still just the one button every 33 seconds...... And Daedric Prey on the biggest critters... and since it's actually 2 bar, albeit identical front and back... you can flip staves in the face of anyone whining about Oakensoul builds......

Auldwulfe

Yeah basically it’s gonna force me into being a 2 bar build again to compensate. It’s funny becuase I’m not interesting in arcanist looks cool but isn’t for me.

It is, technically, a 2 bar build, but since you can get this with identical bars... it's only that, in name.

Auldwulfe

[Edited quote]