Heavy Attacks are no mistake, they are the right step for inclusion

isadoraisacat

Auldwulfe wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

We all knew that it was going to be nerfed, and it didn't matter that the gatekeepers and toddler elitists screamed.....
Oakensoul was there to sell High Isle... but they can't risk it interfering with the Arcanist selling Necrom..... There was never a doubt that they would nerf something, so that the Arcanist can be the winning class... no challengers allowed, when money is to be made.


My non-Oakensoul build is pretty much still right where it was... yeah, I lose a couple k of damage from the heavy attacks, but Daedric Prey and my pets are still the same.... so get used to the flappies, people......
In the long run, having already had a friend do a test on PTS.... my parse goes from 76K to about 74K... and the in combat went from 37.6K to about 36.8K or so.... still just the one button every 33 seconds...... And Daedric Prey on the biggest critters... and since it's actually 2 bar, albeit identical front and back... you can flip staves in the face of anyone whining about Oakensoul builds......

Auldwulfe

Yeah basically it’s gonna force me into being a 2 bar build again to compensate. It’s funny becuase I’m not interesting in arcanist looks cool but isn’t for me.

It is, technically, a 2 bar build, but since you can get this with identical bars... it's only that, in name.

Auldwulfe

My issue is bar swapping in other words I feel this gonna force me into bar swapping again something I was happy to not have to do anymore oh well

CGPsaint

I'm glad that I read these patch notes before pre-ordering Necrom. Odds are this will save me the cost of the pre-order and ESO+. A certain development team clearly only listens and caters to a small segment of the player-base.

Kusto

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Hyperdeathstalker wrote: »

Auldwulfe

Yeah well after the last patch notes we gonna need to look into an alternative. [Snip]

[Snip], this change basically excludes all heavy attack users from new vet trial well done ZOS , not heavy attack sets either , noble duelist next best option but close range only .....
[/quote]


I am using storm master / sergeant I just hit cp600 and oakensoul and slim craw monster set (I had someone help me through that as my only vet I have done ) and I’m at 25k dps if this goes through I will be back to very low dps. I was so happy to be able to solo world bosses and do normal dungeons like everyone else and not be “carried” now I’m back to nothing again. They aren’t considering some of us people have hand issues and literally can not weave or do any repetitive hand motions for hours.

I worked as a machinist and that’s how I got carpel tunnel. It even hurts to type on my phone. Im getting surgery soon but who knows how much it will
Help.

They seem to want to listen to only hardcore weaving god players and ignore the more causal players who just wanted a more relaxed style that’s easier for them that could hit a acceptable dps. I will
Never hit 100 dps and that’s fine I was happy with my 25-30 k dps.
[/quote]

Theres no way you only hit 25k. You probably using non trial dummy. When people are talking about dps, they mean the 21 mil iron atro dummy. No one hits 100k on 3 or 6 mil dummy self buffed.
But even on non trial dummy, 25k is too low. You must have something wrong with your build because you literally only have to hold down 1 button to get 35-40k on non raid dummy and 70-80k on raid one.

And empower and storm master nerfs only dropped the dps by 10%. People need to [Snip] go test it yourself. It's still OP af.

[Edited quote and minor bait]

CameraBeardThePirate

It's insane that people are acting like Oakensoul is dead. I for one will still be using it in all my solo content since the dps has only dropped by around 10%. Oakensoul HA builds will still have more than enough damage to do all content, even vet trials. If you can't get high enough dps with an Oaken Heavy build, that is a learn to play issue because it's been demonstrated already that you can still reach 90k dps on pts with an oakensoul HA build.

TheDarkRuler

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

It's insane that people are acting like Oakensoul is dead. I for one will still be using it in all my solo content since the dps has only dropped by around 10%. Oakensoul HA builds will still have more than enough damage to do all content, even vet trials. If you can't get high enough dps with an Oaken Heavy build, that is a learn to play issue because it's been demonstrated already that you can still reach 90k dps on pts with an oakensoul HA build.

Heavy Attack Builds have dropped by 20-30%. Not 10% like the Empower Nerf. Show me the CMX page that shows 90k dps, all people i know only maxxed on 70-80k dps at most.

CameraBeardThePirate

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

It's insane that people are acting like Oakensoul is dead. I for one will still be using it in all my solo content since the dps has only dropped by around 10%. Oakensoul HA builds will still have more than enough damage to do all content, even vet trials. If you can't get high enough dps with an Oaken Heavy build, that is a learn to play issue because it's been demonstrated already that you can still reach 90k dps on pts with an oakensoul HA build.

Heavy Attack Builds have dropped by 20-30%. Not 10% like the Empower Nerf. Show me the CMX page that shows 90k dps, all people i know only maxxed on 70-80k dps at most.

70-80k dps is still plenty for all content though. Unless you're score pushing (which only like, 20 players in the entire server are), you don't need more dps than that.

CGPsaint

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

70-80k dps is still plenty for all content though. Unless you're score pushing (which only like, 20 players in the entire server are), you don't need more dps than that.

Even if that's true, ZOS is essentially saying that they're okay with a 50-60K damage gap between HA builds and LA builds. The issue isn't that Empower/HA was over-tuned. The issue is that LA players are upset that other people are able to hit decent numbers with less effort. HA users are quite literally doing nothing to impact LA users, but here we are.

CameraBeardThePirate

CGPsaint wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

70-80k dps is still plenty for all content though. Unless you're score pushing (which only like, 20 players in the entire server are), you don't need more dps than that.

Even if that's true, ZOS is essentially saying that they're okay with a 50-60K damage gap between HA builds and LA builds. The issue isn't that Empower/HA was over-tuned. The issue is that LA players are upset that other people are able to hit decent numbers with less effort. HA users are quite literally doing nothing to impact LA users, but here we are.

Here's the parse of the live Best in Slot Oakensoul HA build on PTS (that is to say - Sergeant's and Storm Master's) Things to note:

1) This is a Warden, and Sorc would parse higher.
2) PTS parses are lower than they should be because the medium armor crit damage passive is bugged, losing 10% crit damage.
3) It's likely that after the change, Noble Duelist's will outparse Storm Master's, but not by much.

87k dps is a lot. With a sorc it would be 90k. With medium armor passives even higher, and potentially even higher with Noble Duelist's. We'll say 90k to be conservative.

Highest parses on ESO Logs are around 135k dps. So no, it wouldn't be a 50k-60k dps difference. At absolute most it would be 45k.

A 45k dps difference between the highest parsing players, with the highest damage builds, and a relatively easy to acquire, easy to use build is perfectly acceptable. None of this is about playstyles or gatekeeping - it's about metas and numbers. There will always be a huge gap between the highest parsers with the best builds and the average player. 90k (on PTS) with an Oakensoul HA build is right there with the average player's parse (108k on ESO Logs, likely inflated by selection bias), and is way more than you need for any content, including trifectas.

Edited to give average parses on ESO Logs. This average will likely be a higher than the true average parser as people are more likely to self-upload higher parses.

korsar4eg

IMHO I don’t see how the fact that more players, who paid for game/subscription/dlc same or even more as “skilled” players, started enjoy the game more and access the content they paid for, how that’s harm feelings of “pro weaving” players? Or higher dps is the only thing in their life they can be proud of? Weaving and animation skip feels more like a hack than core combat mechanic. The character looks like he has convulsions. To consider it as the core mechanic there should be understandable visual feedback for all skill and classes. In my opinion weaving is a terrible rhythm game, with no visual feedback, at first place dependent on ping and hardware and on second on skill. I don’t care how other players gain their dps. If it’s make game more fun and enjoyable for them that’s awesome. I don’t see reasons for heavy attacks or ring to be nerfed.

Galeriano

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

It's insane that people are acting like Oakensoul is dead. I for one will still be using it in all my solo content since the dps has only dropped by around 10%. Oakensoul HA builds will still have more than enough damage to do all content, even vet trials. If you can't get high enough dps with an Oaken Heavy build, that is a learn to play issue because it's been demonstrated already that you can still reach 90k dps on pts with an oakensoul HA build.

Heavy Attack Builds have dropped by 20-30%. Not 10% like the Empower Nerf. Show me the CMX page that shows 90k dps, all people i know only maxxed on 70-80k dps at most.

Thing is I can also ask You to show a 130k+ cmx from the PTS and You won't be able to find one. Some passives on the PTS are currently bugged and not working which lowers overall DPS of every setup. Arcanists can't even get above 120k barely getting above 115k. We need to wait atleast to the next incremental patch to start getting reliable parses on any setup. Until then parses from PTS cannot be considered as reliable data source.

CameraBeardThePirate

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

It's insane that people are acting like Oakensoul is dead. I for one will still be using it in all my solo content since the dps has only dropped by around 10%. Oakensoul HA builds will still have more than enough damage to do all content, even vet trials. If you can't get high enough dps with an Oaken Heavy build, that is a learn to play issue because it's been demonstrated already that you can still reach 90k dps on pts with an oakensoul HA build.

Heavy Attack Builds have dropped by 20-30%. Not 10% like the Empower Nerf. Show me the CMX page that shows 90k dps, all people i know only maxxed on 70-80k dps at most.

Your 20-30% number is [Snip] wrong. This same build pulls 91k on live, 87k on PTS. Oakensoul builds have only dropped by about 4%. On a Warden- a Sorc would easily break 90k even on PTS

[Edited for bait]

Stanelis

Auldwulfe wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Once again the inclusion strawman. HA builds help those with disabilities and if you dare to criticize HA builds, you must be against inclusion, anti social, an eltist, a gatekeeper, toxic and what not. Right?

The truth of the matter is: Noone is against inclusion. Noone wants to take away your enjoyment of the game. But we should be allowed to think about the consequences and the effects that these builds have.

Open esologs.com. Pick any.. ANY trial. Check the logs and check the equipment and you will come to the conclusion that either 90% of the ESO player base seem to be suffering from disablilities all of a sudden, or that HA builds are NOT just all about inclusion, that their impact on the game is quite significant and that the "lazy meta" statements are not too far off the mark.

Btw quite ironical that many of those people who were complaining about silly meta chasers and dummy humpers and were all about build diversity and play-how-you-want are now proudly walking around like an army of clone warriors.

Maybe the right question is why people are choosing a method that CAN'T reach the highest DPS......

Auldwulfe

I have an answer ready for you : because the regular 2 bar light attack playstyle is clunky as hell and has been for year and HA 1 bar build fixes the game and makes it enjoyable for most.

isadoraisacat

korsar4eg wrote: »

IMHO I don’t see how the fact that more players, who paid for game/subscription/dlc same or even more as “skilled” players, started enjoy the game more and access the content they paid for, how that’s harm feelings of “pro weaving” players? Or higher dps is the only thing in their life they can be proud of? Weaving and animation skip feels more like a hack than core combat mechanic. The character looks like he has convulsions. To consider it as the core mechanic there should be understandable visual feedback for all skill and classes. In my opinion weaving is a terrible rhythm game, with no visual feedback, at first place dependent on ping and hardware and on second on skill. I don’t care how other players gain their dps. If it’s make game more fun and enjoyable for them that’s awesome. I don’t see reasons for heavy attacks or ring to be nerfed.

This is the most based comment I have seen on this forum about this issue so far. You hit the nail with everything. It’s very sad to see a play style that made content I paid for accessible to me as a disabled person who literally can not weave for more than maybe 5 minutes without severe surging pain.

I hope Zos is taking note of all this and will change their minds.

isadoraisacat

Stanelis wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Once again the inclusion strawman. HA builds help those with disabilities and if you dare to criticize HA builds, you must be against inclusion, anti social, an eltist, a gatekeeper, toxic and what not. Right?

The truth of the matter is: Noone is against inclusion. Noone wants to take away your enjoyment of the game. But we should be allowed to think about the consequences and the effects that these builds have.

Open esologs.com. Pick any.. ANY trial. Check the logs and check the equipment and you will come to the conclusion that either 90% of the ESO player base seem to be suffering from disablilities all of a sudden, or that HA builds are NOT just all about inclusion, that their impact on the game is quite significant and that the "lazy meta" statements are not too far off the mark.

Btw quite ironical that many of those people who were complaining about silly meta chasers and dummy humpers and were all about build diversity and play-how-you-want are now proudly walking around like an army of clone warriors.

Maybe the right question is why people are choosing a method that CAN'T reach the highest DPS......

Auldwulfe

I have an answer ready for you : because the regular 2 bar light attack playstyle is clunky as hell and has been for year and HA 1 bar build fixes the game and makes it enjoyable for most.

Exactly. God forbid we are able to play and enjoy the content we paid for with our hard earned money.

Galeriano

Stanelis wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Once again the inclusion strawman. HA builds help those with disabilities and if you dare to criticize HA builds, you must be against inclusion, anti social, an eltist, a gatekeeper, toxic and what not. Right?

The truth of the matter is: Noone is against inclusion. Noone wants to take away your enjoyment of the game. But we should be allowed to think about the consequences and the effects that these builds have.

Open esologs.com. Pick any.. ANY trial. Check the logs and check the equipment and you will come to the conclusion that either 90% of the ESO player base seem to be suffering from disablilities all of a sudden, or that HA builds are NOT just all about inclusion, that their impact on the game is quite significant and that the "lazy meta" statements are not too far off the mark.

Btw quite ironical that many of those people who were complaining about silly meta chasers and dummy humpers and were all about build diversity and play-how-you-want are now proudly walking around like an army of clone warriors.

Maybe the right question is why people are choosing a method that CAN'T reach the highest DPS......

Auldwulfe

I have an answer ready for you : because the regular 2 bar light attack playstyle is clunky as hell and has been for year and HA 1 bar build fixes the game and makes it enjoyable for most.

The real answer is that the question itself is misleading. Fact that one bar heavy attack cant reach the highest DPS possible doesn't mean it wont perform the best for majority of players. Highest DPS possible is achieved only by small percenatge of skilled players and requires lots of skill and practice. People who don't have those will reach higher numbers with one bar heavy attack setups because it's way way easier to play. It gives a massive portion of max two bar DPS possible for a tiny fraction of skill and practice required.

So people are choosing the method that gives them the best results. For many people one bar heavy attack is either not enjoyable or they dont feel the difference in enjoyment between that and two bar but they still choose one bar heavy attack because it gives them better results due to how strong it is at its base.

Galeriano

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Stanelis wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Once again the inclusion strawman. HA builds help those with disabilities and if you dare to criticize HA builds, you must be against inclusion, anti social, an eltist, a gatekeeper, toxic and what not. Right?

The truth of the matter is: Noone is against inclusion. Noone wants to take away your enjoyment of the game. But we should be allowed to think about the consequences and the effects that these builds have.

Open esologs.com. Pick any.. ANY trial. Check the logs and check the equipment and you will come to the conclusion that either 90% of the ESO player base seem to be suffering from disablilities all of a sudden, or that HA builds are NOT just all about inclusion, that their impact on the game is quite significant and that the "lazy meta" statements are not too far off the mark.

Btw quite ironical that many of those people who were complaining about silly meta chasers and dummy humpers and were all about build diversity and play-how-you-want are now proudly walking around like an army of clone warriors.

Maybe the right question is why people are choosing a method that CAN'T reach the highest DPS......

Auldwulfe

I have an answer ready for you : because the regular 2 bar light attack playstyle is clunky as hell and has been for year and HA 1 bar build fixes the game and makes it enjoyable for most.

Exactly. God forbid we are able to play and enjoy the content we paid for with our hard earned money.

By that logic ZoS should never nerf anything people were enjoying and at this point top parses would be sitting at around 200k. Nerfs are as needed as buffs for game to be balanced.

Things is people will usually enjoy the most, things that are overtuned and developer's job is to keep things balanced and nerf overtuned things even if people enjoy them. It's not first nerf that happened in the game and definietly not the last one. Adapt and move on.

isadoraisacat

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Stanelis wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Once again the inclusion strawman. HA builds help those with disabilities and if you dare to criticize HA builds, you must be against inclusion, anti social, an eltist, a gatekeeper, toxic and what not. Right?

The truth of the matter is: Noone is against inclusion. Noone wants to take away your enjoyment of the game. But we should be allowed to think about the consequences and the effects that these builds have.

Open esologs.com. Pick any.. ANY trial. Check the logs and check the equipment and you will come to the conclusion that either 90% of the ESO player base seem to be suffering from disablilities all of a sudden, or that HA builds are NOT just all about inclusion, that their impact on the game is quite significant and that the "lazy meta" statements are not too far off the mark.

Btw quite ironical that many of those people who were complaining about silly meta chasers and dummy humpers and were all about build diversity and play-how-you-want are now proudly walking around like an army of clone warriors.

Maybe the right question is why people are choosing a method that CAN'T reach the highest DPS......

Auldwulfe

I have an answer ready for you : because the regular 2 bar light attack playstyle is clunky as hell and has been for year and HA 1 bar build fixes the game and makes it enjoyable for most.

Exactly. God forbid we are able to play and enjoy the content we paid for with our hard earned money.

By that logic ZoS should never nerf anything people were enjoying and at this point top parses would be sitting at around 200k. Nerfs are as needed as buffs for game to be balanced.

Things is people will usually enjoy the most, things that are overtuned and developer's job is to keep things balanced and nerf overtuned things even if people enjoy them. It's not first nerf that happened in the game and definietly not the last one. Adapt and move on.

Imagine only considering end game experienced players and not considering how this affects disabled and less experienced players ? 200k dps lol
Okkkkkkkkkk we are talking about the difference between 25 k and 22k or a little less for us lower end players it’s a big dip for us when we already struggled our asses off got mocked and laughed at prior by toxic players and now still mocked for using a play style they see as “lesser” but go on….some people just want to enjoy the game they paid for and have fun and that’s it they aren’t all capable or even trying to be amazing god of combat.

Galeriano

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Stanelis wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Once again the inclusion strawman. HA builds help those with disabilities and if you dare to criticize HA builds, you must be against inclusion, anti social, an eltist, a gatekeeper, toxic and what not. Right?

The truth of the matter is: Noone is against inclusion. Noone wants to take away your enjoyment of the game. But we should be allowed to think about the consequences and the effects that these builds have.

Open esologs.com. Pick any.. ANY trial. Check the logs and check the equipment and you will come to the conclusion that either 90% of the ESO player base seem to be suffering from disablilities all of a sudden, or that HA builds are NOT just all about inclusion, that their impact on the game is quite significant and that the "lazy meta" statements are not too far off the mark.

Btw quite ironical that many of those people who were complaining about silly meta chasers and dummy humpers and were all about build diversity and play-how-you-want are now proudly walking around like an army of clone warriors.

Maybe the right question is why people are choosing a method that CAN'T reach the highest DPS......

Auldwulfe

I have an answer ready for you : because the regular 2 bar light attack playstyle is clunky as hell and has been for year and HA 1 bar build fixes the game and makes it enjoyable for most.

Exactly. God forbid we are able to play and enjoy the content we paid for with our hard earned money.

By that logic ZoS should never nerf anything people were enjoying and at this point top parses would be sitting at around 200k. Nerfs are as needed as buffs for game to be balanced.

Things is people will usually enjoy the most, things that are overtuned and developer's job is to keep things balanced and nerf overtuned things even if people enjoy them. It's not first nerf that happened in the game and definietly not the last one. Adapt and move on.

Imagine only considering end game experienced players and not considering how this affects disabled and less experienced players ? 200k dps lol
Okkkkkkkkkk we are talking about the difference between 25 k and 22k or a little less for us lower end players it’s a big dip for us when we already struggled our asses off got mocked and laughed at prior by toxic players and now still mocked for using a play style they see as “lesser” but go on….some people just want to enjoy the game they paid for and have fun and that’s it they aren’t all capable or even trying to be amazing god of combat.

Imagine not caring about game balance at all. Wheter You like it or not healthy online game requires for things to be balanced, on high, mid and low end. it's not a single player. Currently low and mid ends got a little too strong tools. Also fact that top parses would be sitting at 200k means average parse would be somwhere around 150k. Still pretty ridicolous.

If You are doing 25k than something is wrong other than Your disability. I assume we are talking about regular 3/6M dummy (btw these are inaccurate for measuring DPS) but even then when properly built You can put something heavy on LMB and get around 30k. Toxic players will always exist wheter You like it or not and since it's an online game You should grow a thicker skin and care less of what other people think or stop playing online games if it bothers You so much. Nothing is stopping You from enjoying the game past nerf. You can't expect for a developer to ignore game balance and artificially overbuff low end players. They don't live in a vaccum every change will impact whole game. It's not Skyrim, its an online game and balance will be always an important factor for developer.

Soarora

If you can hold left click you can hold right click. Seriously, what’s stopping people from trying to tank? It’d be a win-win… more tanks and don’t have to worry about HA balance. Tanks don’t weave and their rotation is slow while still having mechanics to do. It’s not for everyone but it is an option. Even if HA were to be absolutely obliterated (which it is not currently) there are other options.

isadoraisacat

Soarora wrote: »

If you can hold left click you can hold right click. Seriously, what’s stopping people from trying to tank? It’d be a win-win… more tanks and don’t have to worry about HA balance. Tanks don’t weave and their rotation is slow while still having mechanics to do. It’s not for everyone but it is an option. Even if HA were to be absolutely obliterated (which it is not currently) there are other options.

Because that’s not what people want to do.
Also repetitive injury’s and things like carpal tunnel the click click click click is what caused these injuries for many people and doing those fast motions are painful and not possible for many people versus slow motions.

You may want to look at some of the tests if these nerfs go through heavy attack will pretty much be useless for many of us.

I don’t want to Tank they get bullied even more than dps. I want to build a character for solo content and play it as much as possible like a real elder scrolls game and use that character in group settings with my small guild.

Not everyone had the same goals / health situations and reasons for doing things. Nirn does not revolve around you.

jaws343

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

If you can hold left click you can hold right click. Seriously, what’s stopping people from trying to tank? It’d be a win-win… more tanks and don’t have to worry about HA balance. Tanks don’t weave and their rotation is slow while still having mechanics to do. It’s not for everyone but it is an option. Even if HA were to be absolutely obliterated (which it is not currently) there are other options.

Because that’s not what people want to do.
Also repetitive injury’s and things like carpal tunnel the click click click click is what caused these injuries for many people and doing those fast motions are painful and not possible for many people versus slow motions.

You may want to look at some of the tests if these nerfs go through heavy attack will pretty much be useless for many of us.

I don’t want to Tank they get bullied even more than dps. I want to build a character for solo content and play it as much as possible like a real elder scrolls game and use that character in group settings with my small guild.

Not everyone had the same goals / health situations and reasons for doing things. Nirn does not revolve around you.

Useless... Anything doing more than 50K damage is far from useless. Very far from useless. You could cut the top end damage of oaken heavy attack builds in half and they would still get players through vet content with more than enough damage.

My two bar solo build does 55K damage on a dummy. And probably like 20K in solo content. It manages vet content perfectly fine.
My oaken sorc build does 87K on a dummy, and and least 50K-70K in actual content because everything is dead before I can even apply a full damage rotation to it, sometimes before my pet even gets to it. With this "nerf" it will now maybe do 45K-65K. Or, I adjust 1 set, and the dps loss is even more minimal.

This change is literally not making anything useless for anyone of any ability.

isadoraisacat

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Stanelis wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Once again the inclusion strawman. HA builds help those with disabilities and if you dare to criticize HA builds, you must be against inclusion, anti social, an eltist, a gatekeeper, toxic and what not. Right?

The truth of the matter is: Noone is against inclusion. Noone wants to take away your enjoyment of the game. But we should be allowed to think about the consequences and the effects that these builds have.

Open esologs.com. Pick any.. ANY trial. Check the logs and check the equipment and you will come to the conclusion that either 90% of the ESO player base seem to be suffering from disablilities all of a sudden, or that HA builds are NOT just all about inclusion, that their impact on the game is quite significant and that the "lazy meta" statements are not too far off the mark.

Btw quite ironical that many of those people who were complaining about silly meta chasers and dummy humpers and were all about build diversity and play-how-you-want are now proudly walking around like an army of clone warriors.

Maybe the right question is why people are choosing a method that CAN'T reach the highest DPS......

Auldwulfe

I have an answer ready for you : because the regular 2 bar light attack playstyle is clunky as hell and has been for year and HA 1 bar build fixes the game and makes it enjoyable for most.

Exactly. God forbid we are able to play and enjoy the content we paid for with our hard earned money.

By that logic ZoS should never nerf anything people were enjoying and at this point top parses would be sitting at around 200k. Nerfs are as needed as buffs for game to be balanced.

Things is people will usually enjoy the most, things that are overtuned and developer's job is to keep things balanced and nerf overtuned things even if people enjoy them. It's not first nerf that happened in the game and definietly not the last one. Adapt and move on.

Imagine only considering end game experienced players and not considering how this affects disabled and less experienced players ? 200k dps lol
Okkkkkkkkkk we are talking about the difference between 25 k and 22k or a little less for us lower end players it’s a big dip for us when we already struggled our asses off got mocked and laughed at prior by toxic players and now still mocked for using a play style they see as “lesser” but go on….some people just want to enjoy the game they paid for and have fun and that’s it they aren’t all capable or even trying to be amazing god of combat.

Imagine not caring about game balance at all. Wheter You like it or not healthy online game requires for things to be balanced, on high, mid and low end. it's not a single player. Currently low and mid ends got a little too strong tools. Also fact that top parses would be sitting at 200k means average parse would be somwhere around 150k. Still pretty ridicolous.

If You are doing 25k than something is wrong other than Your disability. I assume we are talking about regular 3/6M dummy (btw these are inaccurate for measuring DPS) but even then when properly built You can put something heavy on LMB and get around 30k. Toxic players will always exist wheter You like it or not and since it's an online game You should grow a thicker skin and care less of what other people think or stop playing online games if it bothers You so much. Nothing is stopping You from enjoying the game past nerf. You can't expect for a developer to ignore game balance and artificially overbuff low end players. They don't live in a vaccum every change will impact whole game. It's not Skyrim, its an online game and balance will be always an important factor for developer.

That’s like comparing Usain Bolt to billy bob down the street. Just because one experienced player can hit 100K+ dps does not mean the rest of us are even doing anything remotely close to that.

And yes I’m working on getting better traits on my gear it takes. Along time when I can only do normal dungeons. But I’m at a much better place now than I was prior and much closer to my goal.

This isn’t balance this is kicking people to the curb who are paying customers.


I’m very well aware it’s not Skyrim.
“Grow a thicker skin” aka deal with awful horrible mean and toxic people who make fun of others who are trying their best ? I don’t think that’s the solution here.

People are working on their own goals so they can contribute and enjoy the game the best way they can.
It’s a shame I most likely will now no longer be able to enjoy the content I thought I was going to be able too.

isadoraisacat

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

If you can hold left click you can hold right click. Seriously, what’s stopping people from trying to tank? It’d be a win-win… more tanks and don’t have to worry about HA balance. Tanks don’t weave and their rotation is slow while still having mechanics to do. It’s not for everyone but it is an option. Even if HA were to be absolutely obliterated (which it is not currently) there are other options.

Because that’s not what people want to do.
Also repetitive injury’s and things like carpal tunnel the click click click click is what caused these injuries for many people and doing those fast motions are painful and not possible for many people versus slow motions.

You may want to look at some of the tests if these nerfs go through heavy attack will pretty much be useless for many of us.

I don’t want to Tank they get bullied even more than dps. I want to build a character for solo content and play it as much as possible like a real elder scrolls game and use that character in group settings with my small guild.

Not everyone had the same goals / health situations and reasons for doing things. Nirn does not revolve around you.

Useless... Anything doing more than 50K damage is far from useless. Very far from useless. You could cut the top end damage of oaken heavy attack builds in half and they would still get players through vet content with more than enough damage.

My two bar solo build does 55K damage on a dummy. And probably like 20K in solo content. It manages vet content perfectly fine.
My oaken sorc build does 87K on a dummy, and and least 50K-70K in actual content because everything is dead before I can even apply a full damage rotation to it, sometimes before my pet even gets to it. With this "nerf" it will now maybe do 45K-65K. Or, I adjust 1 set, and the dps loss is even more minimal.

This change is literally not making anything useless for anyone of any ability.

Not all of us are even close to 50k yet.
You are comparing extreme players. If I am set back now to lower numbers grinding for the gear I need to get to a higher number becomes less possible.

There was a recent test shown and it appears a lot higher nerf than people are even saying also.

jaws343

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

If you can hold left click you can hold right click. Seriously, what’s stopping people from trying to tank? It’d be a win-win… more tanks and don’t have to worry about HA balance. Tanks don’t weave and their rotation is slow while still having mechanics to do. It’s not for everyone but it is an option. Even if HA were to be absolutely obliterated (which it is not currently) there are other options.

Because that’s not what people want to do.
Also repetitive injury’s and things like carpal tunnel the click click click click is what caused these injuries for many people and doing those fast motions are painful and not possible for many people versus slow motions.

You may want to look at some of the tests if these nerfs go through heavy attack will pretty much be useless for many of us.

I don’t want to Tank they get bullied even more than dps. I want to build a character for solo content and play it as much as possible like a real elder scrolls game and use that character in group settings with my small guild.

Not everyone had the same goals / health situations and reasons for doing things. Nirn does not revolve around you.

Useless... Anything doing more than 50K damage is far from useless. Very far from useless. You could cut the top end damage of oaken heavy attack builds in half and they would still get players through vet content with more than enough damage.

My two bar solo build does 55K damage on a dummy. And probably like 20K in solo content. It manages vet content perfectly fine.
My oaken sorc build does 87K on a dummy, and and least 50K-70K in actual content because everything is dead before I can even apply a full damage rotation to it, sometimes before my pet even gets to it. With this "nerf" it will now maybe do 45K-65K. Or, I adjust 1 set, and the dps loss is even more minimal.

This change is literally not making anything useless for anyone of any ability.

Not all of us are even close to 50k yet.
You are comparing extreme players. If I am set back now to lower numbers grinding for the gear I need to get to a higher number becomes less possible.

There was a recent test shown and it appears a lot higher nerf than people are even saying also.

Literally, doing absolutely nothing else but holding the heavy attack button, any oaken sorc build can hit at least 70K. Doing nothing else.

Also, with how percentages work, the top end parses will always be the most impacted. A 10% nerf on a 90K parse means that build is now doing 81%.

A 10% nerf on a build doing 50K is now doing 45K.

A 20% nerf, to throw out the over-inflated value everyone keeps claiming, means a build doing 25K damage (which is frankly impossible on a heavy attack build unless you are just not doing heavy attacks at all), means that the build is now doing 20K damage. There isn't enough of a difference between 20K and 25K, and the nerf isn't even 20%. At 10% that 25K build is doing 22.5K. Still, absolutely negligible difference.

Y'all are overblowing this adjustment, wildly. And again, just adjusting to a new set will mitigate the minimal DPS differences.

jaws343

I've been a fairly strong supporter of the oaken heavy builds since the backlash hit these last few months. As a mostly solo player, this nerf is not a problem for average players at all. It is more impactful at the top end, which was probably the intent, lower that ceiling a bit. But proportionally, it is doing very little to limit the average and below average players.

VaranisArano

TheKaan wrote: »

Hi there! I agree with your opening line: "One-Bar Heavy Attack Builds are no mistake, they are in fact a good step for inclusion“. But I don't think this applies to Oakensoul, and I'd like to point out a couple of areas where your arguments aren't very persuasive, if that's OK.

One-bar (and two-bar) HA builds have existed for years and were perfectly viable for most content, including veteran Maelstrom Arena and Vateshran Hollows. Anyone who wanted a slower playstyle due to disability, preference or inexperience could go ahead and do it. There was no inclusion problem - HA builds just weren't all that popular. Then Oakensoul transformed them into a one-button route to victory.

Respectfully, the whole narrative that Oakensoul was created with inclusion in mind is extremely dubious. Nobody talked about this when it first appeared - the prevailing opinion was that this was an interesting but ludicrously overpowered Mythic, cynically designed to boost sales of High Isle. The PvP community made countless YouTube videos complaining about this, and about the inevitable nerf that came later.

Then Update 35 happened, and the devs had to respond to unforeseen problems on PTS, one of which was Empower. This buff would enable top-tier groups to carry on as before, while everyone else got nerfed. Obviously not good. The devs' solution, designed in a hurry in the last 2 weeks of PTS, was to make Empower affect Heavy Attacks only.

Sorry for the history lesson, but I think the various twists and turns on the road to the current iteration of Oakensoul demonstrate that it never had the chance to be thoroughly tested. Instead it went live and was tested in-game, which has resulted in countless players (ESO veterans with not a disability in sight) switching to a HA playstyle because the input-to-reward ratio is staggeringly skewed in its favour.

Just look at how often the devs talk about "build diversity" and how important it is. I find it very hard to believe that these same people intended Oakensoul to work the way it does, and for everyone to play the same class, with the same gear and the same rotation. My guess is that they don't know how to put the genie back in the bottle, and I can't say I blame them.

Thank you for taking the time to post so politely about this. I hope I have managed to do the same, and maybe add to your perspective on this topic a little bit. I sympathise with anyone who struggled in veteran content before Oakensoul, and I understand why they defend this Mythic. But it is too strong. It is making challenging content far too easy, it is obliterating build diversity and it is (for me at least) devaluing the greatest thing in ESO; the combat system.

That's not true. Players talked about Oakensoul in terms of accessibility from its launch and the Devs acknowledged that when they later talked about their intent.

Dev Comment about the U35 Oakensoul Nerf:

The original intent of this set was to improve accessibility of one bar builds by providing many bonuses that you would get from running extra abilities on your back bar, and a few other named sources that may come from coordinated groups to help make up for the flexibility and specialization loss of having 5 ability choices instead of 10. While we did see the suggestions we’re incorporating now, we didn’t want to go too hard on the set after the heavy nerfs to the original form without some more concrete metrics and evidence, which we have gathered since Update 34 had launched. We now feel comfortable that the set will still be incredibly impactful for its target audience but in a much more balanced way. It may end up even stronger on some builds now, depending on your focus!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7694098#Comment_7694098

Player comments from U34 High Isle:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/608836/i-love-the-oakensoul-ring-and-hope-we-get-more-items-like-it-going-forward/

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/609327/thanks-for-making-oakensoul

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/604987/are-devs-disrespecting-good-players-now/

Yes, there certainly were players who were skeptical about it being a typically OP Mythic that ZOS was gonna nerf in a few months (hi, I was one of them) but there were also plenty of players who talked about the difference Oakensoul made for their ability to access content.

Which really is not that surprising when you consider that 1-bar builds have long been the standing recommendation for players with disabilities or who need minimal APM for various reasons.


(Edited: I realize I'm rolling in like two weeks later with corrections, but I only just now read this thread, saw that comment, went "Huh, that's not what I remember," and decided to fact check whether I remembered rightly.)

CameraBeardThePirate

People need to calm down. The nerfs are not going to impact your DPS by 20%. It will impact it by about 6%.

If you are able to do content with the Live version of the HA build, you will still be able to do all of the same content post-nerf. If you're not hitting 50k, 80k, 100k, guess what? You'll be affected even less by the nerf because that's how percentages work.

Agenericname

Soarora wrote: »

If you can hold left click you can hold right click. Seriously, what’s stopping people from trying to tank? It’d be a win-win… more tanks and don’t have to worry about HA balance. Tanks don’t weave and their rotation is slow while still having mechanics to do. It’s not for everyone but it is an option. Even if HA were to be absolutely obliterated (which it is not currently) there are other options.

Tanks typically have fewer CPM than DDs, but they do bar swap a lot, which has been cited as one of the issues with 2 bar builds numerous times.

You could run a lot of content with a very basic tank that didnt need to, but there is a point where you want the utility of the back bar buffs, or front barring Master or Vateshran and using the back bar to proc the 2nd set.

Personally, I dont think that the nerf to Empower will be as impactful as some think. Its a nerf for sure, but I wouldnt rule it out as a viable option.

Galeriano

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Stanelis wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Once again the inclusion strawman. HA builds help those with disabilities and if you dare to criticize HA builds, you must be against inclusion, anti social, an eltist, a gatekeeper, toxic and what not. Right?

The truth of the matter is: Noone is against inclusion. Noone wants to take away your enjoyment of the game. But we should be allowed to think about the consequences and the effects that these builds have.

Open esologs.com. Pick any.. ANY trial. Check the logs and check the equipment and you will come to the conclusion that either 90% of the ESO player base seem to be suffering from disablilities all of a sudden, or that HA builds are NOT just all about inclusion, that their impact on the game is quite significant and that the "lazy meta" statements are not too far off the mark.

Btw quite ironical that many of those people who were complaining about silly meta chasers and dummy humpers and were all about build diversity and play-how-you-want are now proudly walking around like an army of clone warriors.

Maybe the right question is why people are choosing a method that CAN'T reach the highest DPS......

Auldwulfe

I have an answer ready for you : because the regular 2 bar light attack playstyle is clunky as hell and has been for year and HA 1 bar build fixes the game and makes it enjoyable for most.

Exactly. God forbid we are able to play and enjoy the content we paid for with our hard earned money.

By that logic ZoS should never nerf anything people were enjoying and at this point top parses would be sitting at around 200k. Nerfs are as needed as buffs for game to be balanced.

Things is people will usually enjoy the most, things that are overtuned and developer's job is to keep things balanced and nerf overtuned things even if people enjoy them. It's not first nerf that happened in the game and definietly not the last one. Adapt and move on.

Imagine only considering end game experienced players and not considering how this affects disabled and less experienced players ? 200k dps lol
Okkkkkkkkkk we are talking about the difference between 25 k and 22k or a little less for us lower end players it’s a big dip for us when we already struggled our asses off got mocked and laughed at prior by toxic players and now still mocked for using a play style they see as “lesser” but go on….some people just want to enjoy the game they paid for and have fun and that’s it they aren’t all capable or even trying to be amazing god of combat.

Imagine not caring about game balance at all. Wheter You like it or not healthy online game requires for things to be balanced, on high, mid and low end. it's not a single player. Currently low and mid ends got a little too strong tools. Also fact that top parses would be sitting at 200k means average parse would be somwhere around 150k. Still pretty ridicolous.

If You are doing 25k than something is wrong other than Your disability. I assume we are talking about regular 3/6M dummy (btw these are inaccurate for measuring DPS) but even then when properly built You can put something heavy on LMB and get around 30k. Toxic players will always exist wheter You like it or not and since it's an online game You should grow a thicker skin and care less of what other people think or stop playing online games if it bothers You so much. Nothing is stopping You from enjoying the game past nerf. You can't expect for a developer to ignore game balance and artificially overbuff low end players. They don't live in a vaccum every change will impact whole game. It's not Skyrim, its an online game and balance will be always an important factor for developer.

That’s like comparing Usain Bolt to billy bob down the street. Just because one experienced player can hit 100K+ dps does not mean the rest of us are even doing anything remotely close to that.

And yes I’m working on getting better traits on my gear it takes. Along time when I can only do normal dungeons. But I’m at a much better place now than I was prior and much closer to my goal.

This isn’t balance this is kicking people to the curb who are paying customers.


I’m very well aware it’s not Skyrim.
“Grow a thicker skin” aka deal with awful horrible mean and toxic people who make fun of others who are trying their best ? I don’t think that’s the solution here.

People are working on their own goals so they can contribute and enjoy the game the best way they can.
It’s a shame I most likely will now no longer be able to enjoy the content I thought I was going to be able too.

What You are doing is actually saying that because Usain Bolt exists than government should give every Billy Bob down the street some performance enhancing drugs so he can be closer to Usain Bolt. After all Billy Bob is paying taxes. And You don't want some average PEDs, You preferably want the ones that give the best results with the least training. Just because there are exceptional individuals who can go beyond what is usually possible it doesnt mean that average human possibilities should be artificially crancked up to the next level without any reasonable limit.

Other people are also paying customers and some of them don't like current situation and Your money is no better than theirs so just because You are paying for the game don't expect developer will always make every balance decision to fit Your desires. This is a 9 years old game You know how many setups that people liked was nerfed during that time? A lot.

Yes it means excatly that. Learn to deal with these kinds of people or just ignore them.

Like I said multiple times already You will be perfectly fine after the nerf and You will be able to do everything You are able to do right now. At worst it will just take a bit more time. If 5% or even 10% DPS is a where You draw thick line between enjoying and not enjoying the content than You really need to grow a thicker skin.

jaws343

Ok, I wanted to get a Baseline for this conversation from live to showcase where this truly stands from a damage perspective for oaken heavy builds.

I took my sorc build. Removed ALL gear except the lightning staff and oakensoul. Precise staff, thief mundus active.
I kept my skill slotted, but did not cast a single skill. No pets, no dots, no aoes.

I ONLY held down the heavy attack button for the entire parse.

On a Trial dummy, just holding the heavy attack button with zero sets equipped. No storm master, no sergeants bonus.
24.9K DPS

So, with basically nothing on, a player can hit just under 25K dps by literally just holding heavy attacks. No skills, no gear.

There is no way a player, of any capacity, cannot hit 50K with gear equipped doing exactly the same thing. Just holding heavies, no skills used.

And that only goes up, just by adding cast the pets and having them out. Not even using their active skills. I actually already know that parse, it is 70K. 70K dps but having the pets out, with storm and sergeants, and only holding heavy attacks the entire parse.

So, let's go back to that 24.9K baseline parse. The only thing from the patch that impacts that is the Empower nerf.
Say a heavy does 10K damage. On live, with empower, it would do 18K, on PTS it would do 17K, or, as mentioned, a 6% damage decrease.

So, assuming that 24.9K dps parse was 100% only heavy attack damage (I have a shock enchant on so it is not), a 6% DPs loss from 24.9K is 23.4K DPS on PTS.

Or a loss of a whole 1.5K DPS. But, that is the absolute worst case because of the shock enchant.

This is not going to impact anyone in any meaningful way. It just isn't.