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Now that mist form is out of the way, next up - Bolt Escape!
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LadyChaos✭✭✭✭If Mist was OP then Bolt escape has to be and was the most broken abiility in the game.
Instant Ha Ha You cant kill me button
Mist stacks with other run speeds. They changed it to match the sorcerer line run speed (before it stacks). Because IMO sorcerers are supposed to be top speed, and an open non-class line wasn't meant to be faster than us. And I still cant keep up with mist, no one can when it's stacked.
AND if YOU can't kill a bolt, doesn't mean it's a win. For every bolt that gets away 10 died. You just never consider the ones who died. How about that it takes an ultimate to stop a DK, and only takes 1-2 any stun to kill a sorcerer...Edited by LadyChaos on May 6, 2014 11:11AMVR2 Ataxia - [NA] Veteran Dominion Sorcerer [Auriel's Bow]
PvP, PvE, Crafting, and General Shenanigans
Sorcery and Mayhem online since 1999
Current PvP Class/Supernatural Census4 -
dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭gostner.emanuelb16_ESO wrote: »What "special" ability has the sorcerer expect bolt escape? nothing! If you take away that one spell why even play sorcerer anymore? DK has root/pull, Templar selfheal/burst, NB stealth... every class has something special, the sorcerer has an escape ability, whats the problem?
the most reliable stun lock or thundernuke ingame?PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.0 -
Tanthul✭✭The 1.07 vampire changes were kind of fail.
There were only three things broken with vampires. Only 3 things. One was fixed (vampire bats stacking with itself). Then they went ahead and "fixed" something that did not need fixing and followed an entirely wrong approach into fixing the second issue. The third issue (using a skill with affects and then turning on mist form) was not touched at all.
1) The issue of ultimate cost reduction stacking. The main problem is one of synergy. Instead of fixing synergy they're nerfing vampire which makes the lines even more broken than they were severly crippling any viable non ultimate cost reduction builds (vampire is heading the werewolf way right now--everything bugged/not working+minimal benefit). On top of that the underlying issue with the cost reduction just vanishing on its own, like after you use a wayshrine, is not fixed. With the current "fix", a sorcerer can still stack a huge amount of ultimate cost reduction but a person who played a normal build (non-ultimate cost reduction stacking) is now crippled. Why not address the problem at its source? Why not make certain things not stack or stack multiplicatively instead of additively? You would have the issue fixed for everyone without breaking viability for normal vampire builds... Make the Sorcerer passive not stacking with the vampire stage affect. Problem solved. Maximum cost reduction is Akaviri set+Vampire. Done. Or make them all stack multiplicatively. Problem solved again. The current fix just makes Vampire not worth it for people not using these specific broken builds who still get very low ultimate cost. Apparently you want to force everyone playing a vampire into these broken builds instead of fixing the underlying issue.
2) Why oh why the speed nerf on elusive mist? Seriously? On PVE side of things it had no effect. On PVP side of things it allowed speed builds that had tactical value. It didn't make anyone overpowered in combat nor could it be exploited in any way. It was a tactical tool and it only had some value if you were also using the Steed with Divines gear which also means you gimped yourself stat-wise to do it. Why would you ever touch that? It already had so many disadvantages that went with it, immunity to heals, inability to use any skill whatsoever and no way to break roots (which means that anyone who knew what they were doing could kill you by timing their root).
Much like bolt escape it was an escaping tool ("elusive" mist) with lesser value than bolt escape due to the multiple ways it could be stopped and the healing immunity. All you need to kill someone using it is a root skill. Why touch it in the first place?
Vampires need elusive mist restored to what it was, fixing the passives after death bug and stages bugging out, make mist form drop any residual effects when you pop it (no vampire bats and switching to mist form) and finally fix the ultimate reduction STACKING issue. Don't nerf vampire, nerf the actual STACKING that is the actual problem.
Werewolves need lower cost ultimate, longer duration of ultimate, longer extension of ultimate while eating corpse+regeneration while they do it, fixed transformation bugs (not firing, only lasting 3 seconds etc etc) and finally ability to break CC and dodge while in werewolf form so it's actually usable in PVP.
Fix the above so they're working as intended without ability to do uberbuilds and don't touch the lines again.Edited by Tanthul on May 6, 2014 12:04PMBeshaba Tanthul, Leader of the Dark Moon PVP Guild (AD EU Scourge).
Developer of Cyrodiil Alert addon.
Indie software/game developer.
Solidarity to the PVP players of Scourge EU&NA: Thread Here1 -
Azarul✭✭✭✭I have not played a Sorc so maybe this is how it works already, but I think what needs to be is it used like an AoE. Meaning they have to target an area they are bolting to. That way they cannot just bolt,bolt,bolt in 3 sec flat.1
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Kililin✭✭✭✭I have not played a Sorc so maybe this is how it works already, but I think what needs to be is it used like an AoE. Meaning they have to target an area they are bolting to. That way they cannot just bolt,bolt,bolt in 3 sec flat.
It would just raise the (player)skill cap.
Nerf everything that annoys me or is stronger than my toon, buff me, plx
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dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭2) Why oh why the speed nerf on elusive mist? Seriously? On PVE side of things it had no effect. On PVP side of things it allowed speed builds that had tactical value. It didn't make anyone overpowered in combat nor could it be exploited in any way. It was a tactical tool and it only had some value if you were also using the Steed with Divines gear which also means you gimped yourself stat-wise to do it. Why would you ever touch that? It already had so many disadvantages that went with it, immunity to heals, inability to use any skill whatsoever and no way to break roots (which means that anyone who knew what they were doing could kill you by timing their root).
Much like bolt escape it was an escaping tool ("elusive" mist) with lesser value than bolt escape due to the multiple ways it could be stopped and the healing immunity. All you need to kill someone using it is a root skill. Why touch it in the first place?
it was nerfed due to it being more useful then the morph for a CLASS, not to mention stacking so a sorc could go lightning for for the speed boost and use elusive. meaning they achieved 80% move speed, thats without the AvA speed boost, making them outrun any mount available.
now for a "bonus" skill tree, being more useful then a class ability is kinda broken, especially since it makes you nigh impossible to target directly, even elusive on it's own outran most mounts (and i know, i use it) so i'm glad it got nerfed, since it's already got a built in 75% damage intake reduction as well as a speed boost and stun immunity, lets not allow it to overshadow lightning form eh? ooh and just a heads up, it made it near impossible to catch a scroll carrier.PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.1 -
kitchenguy65_ESO✭✭✭beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »My build looks like this... Stampede, Obsidian Shard, Unstable Flame, Coagulating Blood, Burning Talons, Corrosive Armour. For those who are not familiar with the morphs, you can read about them on this website: http://eldersouls.com/elder-scrolls-online/skills
1. Stampede. Firstly, this requires a target. Second, it has a travel time. Third, and more importantly, Sorcerers can still bolt out of the resulting immobilize.
2. Obsidian Shard. Firstly, it is a projectile. Second, it can be counter by stun breaking, blocking, or Immovable. Third, bolt moves considerably faster than said projectile.
3. Burning Talons. This is one of the most powerful abilities I have. It can be countered by bolt itself, since you continue bolting regardless of being immobilized.
My build is designed to lock down a single target, prevent them from escaping, and to kill them. Sorcerers laugh at my build because stuns alone are not enough to kill a player, and they can simply bolt out of two abilities that I use specifically to keep them in range.
O NO! There's a counter to your most powerful ability? Can't have that! Better nerf it.
Considering how few counters there are to talons who cares if a few sorcs get away. You'll just talon, bash, etc, the rest to death anyway.
This is an MMO. There has to be counters for everything. No one build is going to allow you to faceroll every other build. Just like there are counters to a bolt escape spam build. Bolt escape spammers are extremely squishy, catch one and they are done for. But remember, it's a build, which requires certain other builds in order to counter, just like a talons, bash build. NOT EVERY BUILD FROM EVERY CLASS WILL BE ABLE TO COUNTER EVERYTHING. That's how it works in games like these. When you make your build, you should be testing and noting its strengths and weaknessess and play accordingly, which it looks like you have done quite well. I imagine your talon build works well against most everyone. You stated yourself that your build revolves around locking down a single target and preventing escape. It only makes sense that a class with an escape ability should be able to counter that build. And that's only if said sorc is running bolt escape.
PS. Sorc here who doesn't use bolt escape. Boundless Storm FTW5 -
Niffo✭✭✭If Mist was OP then Bolt escape has to be and was the most broken abiility in the game.
Instant Ha Ha You cant kill me button
Mist stacks with other run speeds. They changed it to match the sorcerer line run speed (before it stacks). Because IMO sorcerers are supposed to be top speed, and an open non-class line wasn't meant to be faster than us. And I still cant keep up with mist, no one can when it's stacked.
Retreating Maneuvers has a higher speed and longer duration than Boundless Storm does and everyone can get it and they haven't nerfed it down. There is no reason non-class abilities shouldn't be on par with class abilities, especially the vampire line since it has a noticeable downside to it. Mist needed a nerf but not in the way Zenimax nerfed it, movement speed buffs shouldn't be stacking and you should have been able to target people in mist form with single target abilities.
AND if YOU can't kill a bolt, doesn't mean it's a win. For every bolt that gets away 10 died. You just never consider the ones who died. How about that it takes an ultimate to stop a DK, and only takes 1-2 any stun to kill a sorcerer...
Dragonknights can only be countered by Sorcerer ability, so the only way to beat them is by using another overpowered class.
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Kolache✭✭✭✭kitchenguy65_ESO wrote: »There has to be counters for everything. No one build is going to allow you to faceroll every other build. Just like there are counters to a bolt escape spam build. Bolt escape spammers are extremely squishy, catch one and they are done for.
He just gave you a list of the abilities that are designed to counter mobility. Those should be the counters to bolt escape. If you run a magicka-based charge with a stamina-based charge, you have 2 skills designed to close the gap between you and another player. With consecutive bolts they are completely nullified. Snare? Countered by escape. Root? Countered by escape. Stun? Every class has a natural counter to that, and it works off of stamina.
Squishy builds are only squishy if you can manage to squish them some of the time. If you have 10hp but can't be targeted you might as well have 1million hp. Every other class in this game can build themselves to be glass canons. Why wouldn't they? ESO lets us play tanks, DPS, solo or group builds, whatever role you want with different flavor from each class. Why would someone want to make a glass cannon with any other class if one class can disengage infinitely better than the other 3?Something being unbalanced in 1v1 does not imply that it is balanced in group play.4 -
LadyChaos✭✭✭✭jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »If Mist was OP then Bolt escape has to be and was the most broken abiility in the game.
Instant Ha Ha You cant kill me button
Mist stacks with other run speeds. They changed it to match the sorcerer line run speed (before it stacks). Because IMO sorcerers are supposed to be top speed, and an open non-class line wasn't meant to be faster than us. And I still cant keep up with mist, no one can when it's stacked.
Retreating Maneuvers has a higher speed and longer duration than Boundless Storm does and everyone can get it and they haven't nerfed it down. There is no reason non-class abilities shouldn't be on par with class abilities, especially the vampire line since it has a noticeable downside to it. Mist needed a nerf but not in the way Zenimax nerfed it, movement speed buffs shouldn't be stacking and you should have been able to target people in mist form with single target abilities.
AND if YOU can't kill a bolt, doesn't mean it's a win. For every bolt that gets away 10 died. You just never consider the ones who died. How about that it takes an ultimate to stop a DK, and only takes 1-2 any stun to kill a sorcerer...
Dragonknights can only be countered by Sorcerer ability, so the only way to beat them is by using another overpowered class.
working as intended does not mean, OP.
EVERYTHING that stuns kills us... is everything OP by your math?Edited by LadyChaos on May 6, 2014 1:02PMVR2 Ataxia - [NA] Veteran Dominion Sorcerer [Auriel's Bow]
PvP, PvE, Crafting, and General Shenanigans Sorcery and Mayhem online since 1999
Current PvP Class/Supernatural Census3 -
Niffo✭✭✭
working as intended does not mean, OP.
EVERYTHING that stuns kills us... is everything OP by your math?[/quote]
Only if you think 1 class being able to escape from any situation is not overpowered. One stunbreak gives you 8 seconds of immunity to ALL CC, you can then follow it up with 2 Bolt Escapes and you're out of any danger. Sorcerers also have the highest armour/spell resist buff out of any of the classes.
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kitchenguy65_ESO✭✭✭Why would someone want to make a glass cannon with any other class if one class can disengage infinitely better than the other 3?
Ok, you may have changed my mind here... Maybe the ability does need a slight rework, emphasis on slight. Most of the suggestions I read on how to fix it are way too extreme IMO.
IF there is going to be a fix/rework, I think there are two ways it could be done w/o "nerfing" it to the ground like so many people on the forums would like to see.
First, instead of changing the sorc "escape" tool, why not alter other classes gap closers/escapes to be able to work w/o a target? This will allow for all classes to increase their mobility while still allowing sorcs to benefit from the ability.
My second fix suggestion would be to increase the magicka cost of bolt escape IF AND ONLY IF 1) it is used more than once in rapid succession, and 2) if there are no valid targets within a 28m proximity.
Actually, a combo of these two, IMO, would work quite well. Make other gap closing/escape skills work without a target, but increase the resource cost of using them with no target.
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LadyChaos✭✭✭✭jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »
Only if you think 1 class being able to escape from any situation is not overpowered. One stunbreak gives you 8 seconds of immunity to ALL CC, you can then follow it up with 2 Bolt Escapes and you're out of any danger. Sorcerers also have the highest armour/spell resist buff out of any of the classes.
[/quote]
we cannot escape from everything... you must roll a sorcerer and give ti a shot and tell me how much you get away from everything. We get away when we didn't commit.
root/immobilize has no immunity... we have the STA pool to block, OR break once. Once we break once we are still rooted, still taking damage and not able to block now.VR2 Ataxia - [NA] Veteran Dominion Sorcerer [Auriel's Bow]
PvP, PvE, Crafting, and General Shenanigans Sorcery and Mayhem online since 1999
Current PvP Class/Supernatural Census2 -
NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bolt Escape is fine. Does not need to be touched.Bolt Escape is not over powered in any way shape of form.
Its an escape skill. One morph gives you a moderate amount of damage. One morph gives you a moderate amount of spell absorption. Both are quite expensive.
The ability to disengage form a fight is what balances the Sorcerer's poor sustainability. They have the worst self healing abilities of any class in the game. In compensation, they get an escape skill.
Its called Bolt ESCAPE. If you couldn't Escape, the skill wouldn't be working as intended.
The magicka regen debuff was added late in the Beta process. Its was an unjust and painful nerf.
So this was a good change.
If you're having issues with Bolt Escaping mages, try any of the following:
1. Use a CC. Any kind of CC will work. Bolt Escape gives zero immunity, even mid bolt. This means Crystal Shard, Piercing Javeling, Encase, Dark Talons, Shield Charge, Bombard, Fiery Reach, ect. will all stop them from escaping.
2. Use any kind of speed buff or a horse. Several people have posted videos proving that a Bolt Escaping sorcerer can be caught via these means. I'll post one as soon as my YouTube stops giving me a 503 error. But I can also tell you that I have guildies who are in Medium Armor, with a Bow, using the Steed stone, and they are way faster than Bolt Escaping sorcs over medium to long ranges.
3. Let them go. If they run away, they are no longer part of the fight. A sorc who runs away from a siege is no longer sieging.
It can no longer be used while carrying the scroll. That was a nerf. And it was well justified.
That's the only issue with the skill.@Nijjion
Its clear from your post that you have very limited experience with the mechanics you're trying to discuss.
Gap closers will work great in fact. This is because things like Shield Charge and Stampede apply their effect before you actually make contact. Stuns, unlike Immobilize (Talons, Bombard, Encase, ect.) are hard CC and the Sorc cannot use the ability while Stunned. Even with Soft CC, which are designed to allow you to continue using abilities, you'll notice that the root slows the target down quite a bit. This is because they lose the ability to walk in between bolts and are limited to the short distance that the skill its self takes them.
As to your broader point, you're just wrong. As I have explained, there are much much more viable routes to escaping from combat, many of which are open to all classes.
Elusive Mist is one option. I'm not sure how it will hold up after the re-balancing, but it put Bolt Escape to shame before. In Stage 4, a Vampire can cast Elusive Mist infinity times with decent magicka regen. When I was a Vamp (since cured) I could be at 50% magicka, cast Elusive Mist 5 times or so, and be back at 100% magicka. That's because you regen magicka WHILE THE SKILL IS ACTIVE. That means Elusive Mist gives you CC immunity (Bolt Escape does not), reduces incoming damage (Bolt Escape does not), affects opponents' ability to target you (Bolt Escape does not), and has no limit on number of casts and indeed allows you to RECOUP your resources while active (Bolt Escape has a finite number of casts and depletes your magicka completely.)
For non-skill based options, try the following. Pick up the Steed Stone, a Bow, and Medium Armor. Its a bonus (but not needed) if you also get "Well Fitted" traits on your gear. Bow's give you a speed boost after roll dodge. Medium Armor will reduce the cost of that roll dodge as well as the cost of sprinting. The Steed stone will increase your speed, and if some of your gear is "Divines" trait, it will increase it by a ridiculous amount.
I have a guildie using that spec and she can escape from fights much better and for much lower cost than a Bolt Escaping sorc.
So you're wrong that its in any way class limited.
And again, this skill makes up for the lack of self healing. It allows Sorcs to escape and come back to the fight. Other classes can just stay there and heal.
If they nerfed Bolt Escape, they'd have to nerf Leeching Strikes, Swallow Soul, Dragon's Blood, Lingering Ritual, and Breath of Life while making Dark Exchange insta cast.
In fact they buffed it because it was under powered in the first live build, after receiving an unjust nerf near the end of the Beta process.
They also nerfed the one problem with it, which was scroll carrying. That part was good.
Any changes to the combat effectiveness would be bad.
You people are trying to ruin the game by destroying interesting abilities, rather than learning how to actually play the game.3 -
Niffo✭✭✭we cannot escape from everything... you must roll a sorcerer and give ti a shot and tell me how much you get away from everything. We get away when we didn't commit.
root/immobilize has no immunity... we have the STA pool to block, OR break once. Once we break once we are still rooted, still taking damage and not able to block now.
Except immobilize does not prevent you from casting Bolt Escape, you break out of stun bolt twice and immobilize wears off before you get into danger. Don't have to roll a Sorcerer to see it, I have plenty of guild members running Sorcerer that can engage and disengage from a fight like no one else can. I've seen them bolt into range of a target blow them up and bolt back out of range, I've seen them bolt into a group of people cause a distraction take damage to within a sliver of their lives and disengage with bolt escape, when my group gets overwhelmed the Sorcerers are the ones that always survive.
The Sorcerer has to be incompetent and severely outplayed to be caught while using Bolt Escape.
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LadyChaos✭✭✭✭jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »we cannot escape from everything... you must roll a sorcerer and give ti a shot and tell me how much you get away from everything. We get away when we didn't commit.
root/immobilize has no immunity... we have the STA pool to block, OR break once. Once we break once we are still rooted, still taking damage and not able to block now.
Except immobilize does not prevent you from casting Bolt Escape, you break out of stun bolt twice and immobilize wears off before you get into danger. Don't have to roll a Sorcerer to see it, I have plenty of guild members running Sorcerer that can engage and disengage from a fight like no one else can. I've seen them bolt into range of a target blow them up and bolt back out of range, I've seen them bolt into a group of people cause a distraction take damage to within a sliver of their lives and disengage with bolt escape, when my group gets overwhelmed the Sorcerers are the ones that always survive.
The Sorcerer has to be incompetent and severely outplayed to be caught while using Bolt Escape.
You are dead by the time you have "escaped" from talons if you were stunned.
YOU have no idea the trades we have you are just on the "it's not fair" bandwagon others have laid for you. MIST is still faster than us (with synergies), for starters, not to mention what @NordJitsu has polity laid out just 2 posts up.VR2 Ataxia - [NA] Veteran Dominion Sorcerer [Auriel's Bow]
PvP, PvE, Crafting, and General Shenanigans Sorcery and Mayhem online since 1999
Current PvP Class/Supernatural Census3 -
Niffo✭✭✭You are dead by the time you have "escaped" from talons if you were stunned.
YOU have no idea the trades we have you are just on the "it's not fair" bandwagon others have laid for you. MIST is still faster than us (with synergies), for starters, not to mention what @NordJitsu has polity laid out just 2 posts up.
You can break out of stuns before the stun animation has finished and be out of range with immunity, you're acting like the Sorcerer has no idea what they're doing it takes half a second to break out of stun and with bolt escape you're out of melee range in one cast and out of range of everything with the second.
Everything Nordjitsu posted is absolute nonsense, Sorcerers can put 1 ability on their bar and escape from any fight, all other classes have to devote not only their armour/armour traits, mundus stone, and multiple ability slots to not even guarantee they can take the Sorcerer out.
Every single Sorcerer defending Bolt Escape is arguing from emotion, and not with logic or reason.5 -
eliisra✭✭✭✭✭
✭Multiple people aren't going to die simultaneously from Bolt Escape.
They aren't gaining loads of kills and Alliance points, by using it. One or two guys always manages to flee the fighting ground, so what? That's hardly going to affect the map or anything else that matters.
Think this mostly boils down to peoples ego's, not killing someone infuriates them. They think surviving is the same as winning, for some reason. I don't even understand this crazy urge where people must run after the only survivor forever. Go be useful instead?
Anyway, I don't mind if the increase the cost of Bolt Escape. I think you should be able to use it once or twice at a very high cost, to gain some distance in combat. That's what it's there for. Not blinking half the map indefinitely.
But there is still no actual reward for surviving and running around all by yourself in the wilderness of of Cyrodiil. You gain nothing but leg work.
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LadyChaos✭✭✭✭jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »You are dead by the time you have "escaped" from talons if you were stunned.
YOU have no idea the trades we have you are just on the "it's not fair" bandwagon others have laid for you. MIST is still faster than us (with synergies), for starters, not to mention what @NordJitsu has polity laid out just 2 posts up.
You can break out of stuns before the stun animation has finished and be out of range with immunity, you're acting like the Sorcerer has no idea what they're doing it takes half a second to break out of stun and with bolt escape you're out of melee range in one cast and out of range of everything with the second.
Everything Nordjitsu posted is absolute nonsense, Sorcerers can put 1 ability on their bar and escape from any fight, all other classes have to devote not only their armour/armour traits, mundus stone, and multiple ability slots to not even guarantee they can take the Sorcerer out.
Every single Sorcerer defending Bolt Escape is arguing from emotion, and not with logic or reason.
WE actually know how much we die... you only "know" you saw one get away so it's a win button for all. YOU chose to ignore reasonable explanations because in your mind if you touch it, it should die. You are asking questions that have been answered over and over and over. You, like the others on the "it's not fair it moves faster than me" bandwagon just chose to not be reasonable. Roll a sorcerer and talk to me in 50+ levels...VR2 Ataxia - [NA] Veteran Dominion Sorcerer [Auriel's Bow]
PvP, PvE, Crafting, and General Shenanigans Sorcery and Mayhem online since 1999
Current PvP Class/Supernatural Census5 -
Kolache✭✭✭✭But there is still no actual reward for surviving and running around all by yourself in the wilderness of of Cyrodiil. You gain nothing but leg work.
If people didn't care about escaping/surviving then they wouldn't go out of their way to do it. They'd just faceplant and respawn.Something being unbalanced in 1v1 does not imply that it is balanced in group play.3 -
Niffo✭✭✭Multiple people aren't going to die simultaneously from Bolt Escape.
They aren't gaining loads of kills and Alliance points, by using it. One or two guys always manages to flee the fighting ground, so what? That's hardly going to affect the map or anything else that matters.
Think this mostly boils down to peoples ego's, not killing someone infuriates them. They think surviving is the same as winning, for some reason. I don't even understand this crazy urge where people must run after the only survivor forever. Go be useful instead?
Anyway, I don't mind if the increase the cost of Bolt Escape. I think you should be able to use it once or twice at a very high cost, to gain some distance in combat. That's what it's there for. Not blinking half the map indefinitely.
But there is still no actual reward for surviving and running around all by yourself in the wilderness of of Cyrodiil. You gain nothing but leg work.
The issue is that only one class has the ability to escape from fights, there is no combination of class, non-class, or weapon abilities that can mimic or even come close to what a Sorcerer can do with just slotting Bolt Escape. Bolt Escape needs a target requirement and that is all, you teleport 15 meters back from your target it still gets you out of the way of trouble and lets you maintain range without being a get out of jail free card that only one class has. And giving every class an escape like that is not at all the answer to the problem that just means you have to slot that ability to have any chance.3 -
NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@jobo11b16_ESO
I think you should re-evaluate who here is arguing out of emotion. You're upset because an opponent go away from you. Instead of crying for nerfs, you should have come here and said, "Hey, this sorc got away from me using Bolt Escape. Can someone teach me how to better counter this or explain the mechanics to me so I can be a more competent player?"
Did you even read the posts I wrote above? The ones in the spoilers. I know they're long, but you should take the time to understand the game before calling for nerfs.
Decisions like this can't be made lightly and if you refuse to actually engage in discussion about the skills, you should stay out of balance threads.
Like I said, there are many ways to counter the skill. They can be CC'd and damaged while trying to escape. Other specs and skills actually offer faster and better escape routes. These specs can easily catch a sorcerer over moderate to long (but not short) distances.
And most importantly, Sorcerers lack self healing. Like I explained, the other classes lack built in Escape mechanisms because they have great self healing (except Night Blades who have both healing and escape options.)0 -
Niffo✭✭✭@jobo11b16_ESO
I think you should re-evaluate who here is arguing out of emotion. You're upset because an opponent go away from you. Instead of crying for nerfs, you should have come here and said, "Hey, this sorc got away from me using Bolt Escape. Can someone teach me how to better counter this or explain the mechanics to me so I can be a more competent player?"
Did you even read the posts I wrote above? The ones in the spoilers. I know they're long, but you should take the time to understand the game before calling for nerfs.
Decisions like this can't be made lightly and if you refuse to actually engage in discussion about the skills, you should stay out of balance threads.
Like I said, there are many ways to counter the skill. They can be CC'd and damaged while trying to escape. Other specs and skills actually offer faster and better escape routes. These specs can easily catch a sorcerer over moderate to long (but not short) distances.
And most importantly, Sorcerers lack self healing. Like I explained, the other classes lack built in Escape mechanisms because they have great self healing (except Night Blades who have both healing and escape options.)
I did read the posts and I understand the game very well. The issue is not that people are escaping but that only one class has the ability to do it. Not one of the counters you listed actually hard counters Bolt Escape, stunbreak negates ALL CC for 8 seconds and can be cast long before you finish the animation of being stunned and then all it takes is 2 casts of Bolt Escape to be out of range of any ability. No other spec offers speed like Bolt Escape does not even a pre-nerf Vampire Nightblade stacking Path of Darkness and Elusive mist, because both of those still require the player to run they don't teleport you instantly across the terrain.
Blood Magic, Critical Surge. Dark Exchange, three forms of self healing available to Sorcerers, you're welcome for the free education on your own class. Maybe you should take the time to learn the game before making emotional posts on the forums in an attempt to keep overpowered abilities in the game.Edited by Niffo on May 6, 2014 2:36PM2 -
LadyChaos✭✭✭✭jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »@jobo11b16_ESO
I think you should re-evaluate who here is arguing out of emotion. You're upset because an opponent go away from you. Instead of crying for nerfs, you should have come here and said, "Hey, this sorc got away from me using Bolt Escape. Can someone teach me how to better counter this or explain the mechanics to me so I can be a more competent player?"
Did you even read the posts I wrote above? The ones in the spoilers. I know they're long, but you should take the time to understand the game before calling for nerfs.
Decisions like this can't be made lightly and if you refuse to actually engage in discussion about the skills, you should stay out of balance threads.
Like I said, there are many ways to counter the skill. They can be CC'd and damaged while trying to escape. Other specs and skills actually offer faster and better escape routes. These specs can easily catch a sorcerer over moderate to long (but not short) distances.
And most importantly, Sorcerers lack self healing. Like I explained, the other classes lack built in Escape mechanisms because they have great self healing (except Night Blades who have both healing and escape options.)
I did read the posts and I understand the game very well. The issue is not that people are escaping but that only one class has the ability to do it. Not one of the counters you listed actually hard counters Bolt Escape, stunbreak negates ALL CC for 8 seconds and can be cast long before you finish the animation of being stunned and then all it takes is 2 casts of Bolt Escape to be out of range of any ability. No other spec offers speed like Bolt Escape does not even a pre-nerf Vampire Nightblade stacking Path of Darkness and Elusive mist, because both of those still require the player to run they don't teleport you instantly across the terrain.
Blood Magic, Critical Surge. Dark Exchange, three forms of self healing available to Sorcerers you're welcome for the free education on your own class. Maybe you should take the time to learn the game before making emotional posts on the forums in an attempt to keep overpowered abilities in the game.
only one class has: pets, in combat stealth, chain pull, charge forward etc. Just because 1 class has it doesn't mean it needs nerf. THIS is how class variation happens. Otherwise they would all be the same and bland. IF you want an escape of this type, even though NB has something similar, and mist > bolt... then roll a sorcerer and give up what your class has for specialty.VR2 Ataxia - [NA] Veteran Dominion Sorcerer [Auriel's Bow]
PvP, PvE, Crafting, and General Shenanigans Sorcery and Mayhem online since 1999
Current PvP Class/Supernatural Census2 -
NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
@jobo11b16_ESOjobo11b16_ESO wrote: »
The issue is that only one class has the ability to escape from fights, there is no combination of class, non-class, or weapon abilities that can mimic or even come close to what a Sorcerer can do with just slotting Bolt Escape. Bolt Escape needs a target requirement and that is all, you teleport 15 meters back from your target it still gets you out of the way of trouble and lets you maintain range without being a get out of jail free card that only one class has. And giving every class an escape like that is not at all the answer to the problem that just means you have to slot that ability to have any chance.
No I know you didn't read the post. The bolded part is just plain false.
There are at least 2 SINGLE SKILLS that give the same escape utility as Bolt Escape. These are: Dark Cloak and Elusive Mist.
Its also possible to create builds that SURPASS the escape utility of Bolt Escape, without dedicating a single one of your precious 5 ability slots to it. This is done through a combination of the following:
Medium Armor (Passives Wind Walker and Athletics)
Bow (Passive Hasty Retreat)
Steed Stone
Armor Traits (Divines, Well Fitted, or combination)
A combination of those things will give you BETTER escape than a Sorc can ever have.
There are two Dragon Knights in my guild running that spec. They've got an equal or better chance of getting out of a fight than I do. Why? Because they also have self healing. They can run away 10 feet, pop Green Dragons Blood, and be ready to back in the fight. A Templar could do the same with Lingering Ritual.
And the only one of those escape options that is class restricted is Dark Cloak (if you're a NB and can't escape any fight you want, you're just terrible at the game btw.)
That's without even mentioning Retreating Maneuvers, which will ALSO make you immune to roots and immobilize (one of my DK guildies also uses this, so she's just gone when she wants to be.)
Or without mentioning Dark Stalker (Vamp passive) and Improved Sneak (Medium Armor passive) which allow you to escape and hide literally right next to the zerg.
So no, Bolt Escape is FAR from the only or even the best escape mechanism in the game.2 -
Kolache✭✭✭✭
summon shadeonly one class has: pets
invis potionsin combat stealth
critical chargecharge forward
shield charge
focused charge
teleport strike
true. As consolation, when there are endless debates about how OP chain pull is I will cast my vote for whatever side you're on.chain pullSomething being unbalanced in 1v1 does not imply that it is balanced in group play.3 -
Kolache✭✭✭✭Its also possible to create builds that SURPASS the escape utility of Bolt Escape, without dedicating a single one of your precious 5 ability slots to it. This is done through a combination of the following:
Medium Armor (Passives Wind Walker and Athletics)
Bow (Passive Hasty Retreat)
Steed Stone
Armor Traits (Divines, Well Fitted, or combination)
A combination of those things will give you BETTER escape than a Sorc can ever have.
How exactly do these stop someone from using consecutive magicka/stamina based charges to follow you as you go?
Something being unbalanced in 1v1 does not imply that it is balanced in group play.2 -
LadyChaos✭✭✭✭
summon shadeonly one class has: pets
invis potionsin combat stealth
critical chargecharge forward
shield charge
focused charge
teleport strike
true. As consolation, when there are endless debates about how OP chain pull is I will cast my vote for whatever side you're on.chain pull
aside from the fact that some of those are not class abilities... well tbh hard take your point of view serious TBH, but I'm trying. So by this... equation... if there is a non class ability that does it then it's "fair" ... we've already given you sooo many examples of what is just as reliable and those that are even better.
VR2 Ataxia - [NA] Veteran Dominion Sorcerer [Auriel's Bow]
PvP, PvE, Crafting, and General Shenanigans Sorcery and Mayhem online since 1999
Current PvP Class/Supernatural Census2 -
Niffo✭✭✭
@jobo11b16_ESOjobo11b16_ESO wrote: »
The issue is that only one class has the ability to escape from fights, there is no combination of class, non-class, or weapon abilities that can mimic or even come close to what a Sorcerer can do with just slotting Bolt Escape. Bolt Escape needs a target requirement and that is all, you teleport 15 meters back from your target it still gets you out of the way of trouble and lets you maintain range without being a get out of jail free card that only one class has. And giving every class an escape like that is not at all the answer to the problem that just means you have to slot that ability to have any chance.
No I know you didn't read the post. The bolded part is just plain false.
There are at least 2 SINGLE SKILLS that give the same escape utility as Bolt Escape. These are: Dark Cloak and Elusive Mist.
Its also possible to create builds that SURPASS the escape utility of Bolt Escape, without dedicating a single one of your precious 5 ability slots to it. This is done through a combination of the following:
Medium Armor (Passives Wind Walker and Athletics)
Bow (Passive Hasty Retreat)
Steed Stone
Armor Traits (Divines, Well Fitted, or combination)
A combination of those things will give you BETTER escape than a Sorc can ever have.
There are two Dragon Knights in my guild running that spec. They've got an equal or better chance of getting out of a fight than I do. Why? Because they also have self healing. They can run away 10 feet, pop Green Dragons Blood, and be ready to back in the fight. A Templar could do the same with Lingering Ritual.
And the only one of those escape options that is class restricted is Dark Cloak (if you're a NB and can't escape any fight you want, you're just terrible at the game btw.)
That's without even mentioning Retreating Maneuvers, which will ALSO make you immune to roots and immobilize (one of my DK guildies also uses this, so she's just gone when she wants to be.)
Or without mentioning Dark Stalker (Vamp passive) and Improved Sneak (Medium Armor passive) which allow you to escape and hide literally right next to the zerg.
So no, Bolt Escape is FAR from the only or even the best escape mechanism in the game.
Are those Dragonknights specced solely for running away? Both you and Lady Chaos give comepletely nonsensical counters to 1 single ability on a class. Sorcerers put 1 ability on their bar to have mobility and escape, while every other class has to sacrifice their build and gear to do what Sorcerers can with just 1 ability. Maneuvers is available to anyone, even Sorcerers, that is not a counter. Ritual has a 2 second cast time, have fun escaping while you're walking away. Look at what you listed, full medium armour with the well fitted trait, The Steed mundus stone, and bow, and that is just the gear then you have Dark Cloak, Elusive Mist, and Retreating Maneuvers, just to come close to what Sorcerers can do with slotting 1 ability. You don't want balance and counters you just want to maintain your advantage. Oh and you can knock someone out of stealth by damaging them which is a HARD counter to stealth something that Bolt Escape is lacking.
I notice you ignored the self healing options I listed in my post, Bolt Escape will get nerfed, it is not a balanced skill, you can try to ignore that it is broken all you want.
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