Melee is so weak they are getting booted out of Dungeon Groups

Setarcos · May 2014

Axewaffle wrote: »

If your computer is running slowly ... , if your car is making a funny noise ... , if your group member is unable to perform ....

A really good way to make yourself look like a tool is to make a statement reducing people to tools.

BenjaminKacher_ESO · May 2014

Learn 2 dps... that is all.

Sunrock · May 2014

@alexandru987eb17_ESO First of all in normal VR dungeons you only need to do more damage to the boss then the boss can do you you. If the group QQ over that you do not do X +500 DPS when you only need to do X DPS to kill the boss is because they are sucky players or just d-bags and unexperienced. So avoid those that focus too mush on DPS meters as they are usually wants over kill DPS to compensate for not being able to avoid taking damage when they are meant to do so.

However I can see this being a problem for Craglorn though because of the high score list they have there. But there is a "million and one" issues with the balance between skill lines in this game. Right now every thing is very unbalanced when it comes to power, survivability and so on. Everything not just this have to be looked at ASAP.

Reenlister · May 2014

NextGame wrote: »

Reenlister wrote: »

This whole how much dps do you do is stupid.

False.

Firstly: So long as dps race mechanics are in place in pve boss fights your dps is relevant, as lack thereof can prevent you and potentially your party from progressing through the game. When you encounter these bosses, such as VR Spindleclutch boss #2, the game is telling you that you are expected to be doing a certain level of dps as a group. DPS meters are important as they are the only tool that you can have to ensure that you can tweak your character and playstyle to hit that baseline. Excluding this tool from the game only serves to harm endgame progression and leave everyone wondering whether they are grouping with decent players or a bunch of hams, or indeed if they are the ham (if you play nightblade, you are probably the ham).

2nd: once a player has completed certain repeatable content, they tend to want to move through it as fast as possible in the future, and higher dps is the answer to that. This is where bads traditionally start getting upset as no group that understands what they are doing wants to take them anywhere as their attitude is "dps level doesn't matter", and expect the rest of the group to carry them. This holds said group back and risks wasting a lot of time in dungeons that would be a cakewalk when taking someone else. Why should 3 other players time be wasted because of 1 players inconsideration?

Bottom line, this game needs group dps/heal meters to be returned as an available function to the community. People who don't want to use it obviously wouldn't need to, and can go group with similarly minded people, and just suck it up that other players are more willing to put time into making their character effective. But there's no real reason that the choice shouldn't be there for those who *do* want to play effectively other than sheer petty mindedness. Stop holding people back.

So basically, I am wrong, because I don't write a long dissertation on how this must be approached as a business function?
Gotta hurry through?
Why?
Guess I ll just take my N00B bad player attitude and hustle off with the others who obviously don't know how to 'play the game' correctly.
/shaking head
BTW Gotta love the 'play effectively' line.

hukaka · May 2014

melees are weak , its true, i'm not melee ,so whatever

Asava · May 2014

Perseas wrote: »

As far as I can see, dps is not the issue in ESO bosses, so its worthless. ESO bosses, need you to be versitile and move and find a way to do it... its not like " DPS DPS FAST FAST"... its not like that.

Blood Spawn says that you're full of skooma.....

ipkonfigcub18_ESO · May 2014

All evening when I get on is "DK and Sorc" requests for Dungeons. When they say "DPS" and you say "I'm a NB" you're quickly ignored... Fast.

But trust me, the class developer team consists of all Casters and Bow people. Melee will never get love in this game

Pseudofire · May 2014

I totally agree, melee damage is pathetic. ESPECIALLY one handed.

woodlandwoodsb14_ESO · May 2014

Melee need to do more damage than ranged in my opinion. Fighting up close should really mean something. After all, gameplay is simply more difficult for non-ranged players.

Melee have a harder time with fight mechanics in PVE.
They also deal with being kited in PVP.

Xili · May 2014

1st of all i'd like to take away the myth of not being able to see other ppl's dps... because it is perfectly possible with external software, I alrdy looked it up how other ppl did it, but chose not to use it because it practically alrdy ruined my personal game experience. with that said...

2nd of all, it is also not a myth that melee do far less dps than magicka users, it is very much fact. either one needs to get buffed or the other nerfed, in my opinion the other shud get nerfed, as the VR dungeon content is alrdy too easy as it is.

this message was brought to you by a VR10 dual dagger wielder, equipped in full legendary armor & weapons, all of wich are legendary enchanted. set bonusses and stats all focused on PVE content. skillbar setup for maxed dps. yet... any mage will out dps me by double the amount without a sweat. depending on how much i have to move, between that and tank & spank, my dps will be 400-500... mages in my guild are talkin numbers of 1200dps.

end statement: i dont need to do 1200 dps, but a 200% difference in dps is just too big of an unbalance. i think melee users are actually right where they need to be lookin at the current endgame pve content, and mages need a serious nerf in order to make it challanging and worthwhile to play. if craglorn is as easy as the current 6x VR dungeons (including hardmodes) i will unsub without regret.

ignoroticb14_ESO · May 2014

I am sure zenimax will balance things, but how quickly is the question. The real problem is that hardcore mmo players only want what they have been told is the "best" min/max spec, class, and gear. That may matter in very difficult fights where the party is wiping, but to most people, as long as the dungeon is moving along without wipes they won't whine and cry a lot.

What cracks me up is when these uber types would rather spend 2 hours looking for their dream group rather than take anyone wants to go, which maybe makes a dungeon take 10 minutes longer than it would with their "perfect" setup.

If killing a boss takes 25 more seconds, but the instance is going smoothly, there are still going to be elitists who will kick you based on their own sense of smug superiority. It's a reason I pondered not getting into another mmo. Who wants some snarky jerk condescending to you?

tordr86b16_ESO · May 2014

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

...there is an API restriction that was added during one of the beta tests that prevents dps addons such as recount from determining other player values, only your own. So how exactly are they determining his dps when there is an api restriction preventing that?

In short, all dps addons can only determine the damage you do and the damage you take. Nothing else from other players.

Melee is not weak, at all. There's a reason why a 2h DK is arguably the strongest class in the game.

Those people claiming his dps was weak are full of it because they had no way of knowing what his dps was unless he had the addon and was announcing it to them.

Also, the reason why so many melee dps players die quickly is because they think they can face roll a boss or mob and that's not how this game works. I know plenty of people that melee dps and have ZERO issue with veteran content because they built their character to survive and know how to play a melee class properly.

All in all, this is pretty much a non issue.

Parsers.

tordr86b16_ESO · May 2014

laced wrote: »

LazerusKI wrote: »

laced wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

if what you are saying is true, this is bad. Yesterday i was doing a dungeon and our melee dps was dying constantly due to having to stay near the boss. most heavy aoe attacks would oneshot him and it couldnt be helped. But to also have lower dps than a ranged guy is just horrible

It is true, get someone with blue gear that is using the 2 handed skill line, and then someone that has blue sorcerer gear and using the dark magic skill line, the sorcerer will out dps the 2 handed by a mile. Its kind of ridiculous. All weapon skill trees need a buff.

atleast the bow is balanced compared to melee. deals slightly less dps i think, because of its low rate of fire.
i think it looks currently like that
Magic > Shieldbash > Abilities (except NB, because NB has no real attacks and everything else is bugged) > Melee/Bow

Here is hoping they do some serious balancing, because I use melee atm w/o magic aside from the Might Standard......

Also bugs me that weapon skills didn't get any ultimates......

Don't use might standard .... it is a magicka based ultimate which means it does crap damage if you are stamina based. no wonder you're doing garbage dps, you are not building your deck correctly.

blackwolf7 · May 2014

Fix nightblades and vamp skills = melee will be viable again

NextGame · May 2014

Reenlister wrote: »

So basically, I am wrong, because I don't write a long dissertation on how this must be approached as a business function?
Gotta hurry through?
Why?
Guess I ll just take my N00B bad player attitude and hustle off with the others who obviously don't know how to 'play the game' correctly.
/shaking head
BTW Gotta love the 'play effectively' line.

No; you are wrong because you appear to believe that your personal character setup is more important than your contribution to the group when it comes to group content, potentially hampering those other 3 theoretical players ability to progress as, in the context of your post, they have to carry your low dps setup.

Many players do not want to have to carry others through game content. I'm not sure why some are unable to grasp this.

PF1901 · May 2014

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Shillen wrote: »

Perseas wrote: »

This dps meters destroy games... they force players, with disturbing ways, to play the way THEY want, not the way the player plays his game, if players dont comply with their sadistic appetites, they kick away players and there is allot of frustration. I havent seen anything in game yet... Swtor does have 1 but its not 100% accurate, because bioware prohibits that.

If i see people like that ingame, is more likely that I will block them and ignore them, such as bots. I have them in the same category as bots, because they act, their character is like a robot. I never allow anybody to tell me how to play my game. I ignore them... either ways I play as a healer, but this latency destroying it some times.

As far as I can see, dps is not the issue in ESO bosses, so its worthless. ESO bosses, need you to be versitile and move and find a way to do it... its not like " DPS DPS FAST FAST"... its not like that.

Games have always been about figuring out the best way to use the game mechanics to beat the content. They are not supposed to be do whatever you feel like and win.

Quoted for truth. And to the person you're quoting, you wanting to force us to play with your broken, poorly-planned spec and effectively carry you is telling us how to play.You're contradicting yourself right off the bat .

Just because people don't want to adopt to the elitist's "maxed out spec" way of thinking does not necessarily make their spec "broken, poorly-planned" as you call it. Basically it' a sad way of thinking all to common in games these days.

Coraxcor · May 2014

I didn't encounter every dungeon and boss in this game yet, but I hope some bossfight mechanics demand more than simple max dps to end this fight.
I remember a bossfight in LotRO where two bosses had to be killed, the one only vulnerable to ranged attacks like bows and magic, the other only vulnerable to melee attacks. If your group wasn't well balanced, you got a problem, especially in the "hardmode" of this fight where the bosses' HPs never had to differ more than 10 % from each other.

But I've some some interesting mechanics in ESO too, so I think Craglorn won't be all about dps

Sakiri · May 2014

Coraxcor wrote: »

I didn't encounter every dungeon and boss in this game yet, but I hope some bossfight mechanics demand more than simple max dps to end this fight.
I remember a bossfight in LotRO where two bosses had to be killed, the one only vulnerable to ranged attacks like bows and magic, the other only vulnerable to melee attacks. If your group wasn't well balanced, you got a problem, especially in the "hardmode" of this fight where the bosses' HPs never had to differ more than 10 % from each other.

But I've some some interesting mechanics in ESO too, so I think Craglorn won't be all about dps

EQ2 has a fight in one of the Drunder group zones that has the boss split at a certain percentage. They need to be tanked apart or they merge and he hits like a tank.

Having a second fighter was always nice, but Id put threat song on myself and tank that sod on my dirge. Between Percussion of Stone and hp leeching if the healer was good, I was good.

dennissomb16_ESO · May 2014

The unfortunate side of pugs is to often you will get the elitist, and that leads to things like booting people for not doing what they want, how they want. Guilds and building a good friends list eliminates that issue.

As far as melee dps, I think it is lacking overall compared to magic. partially it is class skills seem to do significant more dps the weapons, and that is magic. But where I really find the issue with melee is the same issue with many MMOs. Melee is often forced to move out of range for a number of reasons such as aoe on the ground, Mob has some difficult effect on itself, getting physically hit by some mobs just cant be mitigated enough, etc.

Having to move out of melee range means you are not doing dps. Of course the argument is always "switch to range". Really why take melee at all, simply build all range. I think the melee could use a bit of a boost

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO · May 2014

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

The unfortunate side of pugs is to often you will get the elitist, and that leads to things like booting people for not doing what they want, how they want. Guilds and building a good friends list eliminates that issue.

As far as melee dps, I think it is lacking overall compared to magic. partially it is class skills seem to do significant more dps the weapons, and that is magic. But where I really find the issue with melee is the same issue with many MMOs. Melee is often forced to move out of range for a number of reasons such as aoe on the ground, Mob has some difficult effect on itself, getting physically hit by some mobs just cant be mitigated enough, etc.

Having to move out of melee range means you are not doing dps. Of course the argument is always "switch to range". Really why take melee at all, simply build all range. I think the melee could use a bit of a boost

An easy resolution to this would be to re-do the bleed/dot dmg that melee can apply to be more viable. The bleed from the 2h Passive heavy weapons ability does virtually nothing, the bleed from Carve doesn't add up to much. This would help to keep melee dps competitive during move sequences.

rayvn03b14_ESO · May 2014

Saerydoth wrote: »

If this is the case, that's awesome. DPS addons like Recount destroyed the community in WOW because everything became about how much DPS you could do, with nothing else mattering.

If Zenimax has indeed made it so addons can't measure other players' DPS (only your own), that's really nice and they should definitely keep it that way.

Agreed. When I first started reading, my first thought was "Oh gods, the Male Body Part Measure Contestants have infested ESO already." This isn't just an endgame issue. I've seen it happen in WoW at bloody Ragefire Chasm and wailing caverns, ffs (for non WoW players, those dungeons are level 15-20 at the most, and max level is 90) You don't freaking need Recount and gear score for those!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgnMpOU1LNQ Warning: heavy sarcasm within.

People overuse these meters. sure they can be useful for monitoring yourself and making sure people aren't tabbing out to Facebook or looking at their phones (it happens) but when it turns into waving one's e-peen, no one benefits.

Davngr · May 2014

I'm going to make this real easy for the people who don't understand and thus want to slander/prohibit our fun.

I find parsing fights with others FUN. Many other players find parse wars FUN.

On top of it being FUN! FUN! FUN!
It serves a purpose, it allows people to improve by tweaking their gear/group set up/casting order/timing/ect...

If for some reason YOU don't think that parsing is fun, then don't do it.

All the people against it are arguing that it's not needed anyway right? So don't use it and without it, you will be able to carry out your function in the group (as you say) and thus it's a non-issue to you.

As far as the melee thing..
everyone here saying that melee is super powerful or even comes close to magik is either insurmountably clueless or a huge, gigantic troll. Either way they should be ignored.

Wish I had listened to my gut and rolled a sorc or tank =(

Figured devs had taken notice of the vast difference between magic and melee skills but... guess not.

Again, fixing nightblade melee should involve fixing/adjusting nightblade melee skills NOT boosting passive melee damage that is available to ALL classes and would only further unbalance the game.

Attorneyatlawl · May 2014

Excellent post @Davngr‌.

Chryos · May 2014

The fix for this is to not group with Aholes.

Kyle_Roberts · May 2014

Gearscore will solve everything, someone make an addon for it please.

Oberon · May 2014

Xili wrote: »

if craglorn is as easy as the current 6x VR dungeons (including hardmodes) i will unsub without regret.

This is actually an interesting dilemma for Zenimax.

If Craglorn is hard, then a raid leader would be crazy to invite any melee characters. There's no other way to put it--melee is just flat out inferior. The only way they'd get invited is because of a mechanic that mandates it. Once that boss is killed, melee gets the boot and the raid leader brings in vastly superior casters.
If Craglorn is easy, everybody gets invited (that's good), but players whine about it being too easy and ZOS suffers endless qq from the fanatics.

ralurielb16_ESO · May 2014

My wife and I have rerolled Sorc. AoE damage and CC are the only reliable way to do vet dungeons as a DPS. Way too many mobs doing a lot of damage.

Reenlister · May 2014

NextGame wrote: »

Reenlister wrote: »

So basically, I am wrong, because I don't write a long dissertation on how this must be approached as a business function?
Gotta hurry through?
Why?
Guess I ll just take my N00B bad player attitude and hustle off with the others who obviously don't know how to 'play the game' correctly.
/shaking head
BTW Gotta love the 'play effectively' line.

No; you are wrong because you appear to believe that your personal character setup is more important than your contribution to the group when it comes to group content, potentially hampering those other 3 theoretical players ability to progress as, in the context of your post, they have to carry your low dps setup.

Many players do not want to have to carry others through game content. I'm not sure why some are unable to grasp this.

Tell me where I have stressed my setup is more important?
Your speaking quite frankly out of your fourth point of contact.
You seem to be quite guilty of this yourself. As you seem to be only focused on the mystical build.
And you have no idea my DPS.
Ultimately when I group, I don't run around worrying over who has what for a DPS because it is a group. That means working toward a goal, not again, a business setup.
If I find someone who is struggling guess what, I take the time to speak to them and tell / show what I have found to work. Its called mentoring instead of bashing them to the ground.
Go ahead and play your little CEO of the MMO group role.
And do explain to me how one dungeon run with someone who may be not 'optimized' is going to result in you carrying them through the content? Maybe that 5 ( OMGosh so long! ) minutes you take out of your oh so busy schedule will actually help them to be better.

Oberon · May 2014

The problem is that in a fit of poor design, Zenimax placed a timer and a leader board into the Trials (raids). If you end up high on the leader board at the end of the week, you get 50% more loot than other players (1 extra loot drop over the 2 you got from doing the two Trials).

This massive increase in loot will absolutely lead to serious min/maxing along with cheating, hacking, exploiting and anything else that will result in fast Trial times. It is inevitable, all caused by the timer + leader board bonus loot.

If you don't have massive dps output, you won't be welcome to a good Trials group. Inferior just doesn't cut it when 50% more loot is at stake. Currently, melee is just flat out inferior.

I don't like it, nor do I like timers or leader boards being related in any way to actual loot gains, but that's how it is.

dusan.rusnak89eb17_ESO · May 2014

Well speaking as NB melee dual wielder i can confirm... I`m in full unique/legendary enchanted set gear (v10 ofc), spent decade playing MMO's therefor I believe I CAN say that I know what to do ( always aimed for bis and being among the best) and I can honestly say that e.g my damage output is nowhere near sorcerors , not to mention that he is capable of doing that much of a damage w/o having to worry at all from distance ...

every DK in this topic is gonna say that melee is fine.. yep well it is as long as you play fully functional char that can dish out tons of damage in pretty much any situation and yet still able to take alot of damage..

I've created NB because it fits my playstyle the most.. I dont wanna be forced to reroll for DK (not to mentions the days of pure playtime which I no longer have that I'd have to invest into getting him to v10 , getting all skyshards , quests etc all over again.) to be able to play the game as it was intented to play..