Melee is so weak they are getting booted out of Dungeon Groups
Update 46 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/676209
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Axewaffle✭✭✭If your computer is running slowly you run a system diagnostic or replace it, if your car is making a funny noise you take it to get serviced or replace it, if your group member is unable to perform their task to the appropriate standard you run a dps meter to see where the problem is or you replace them. This whole elitism thing is something people who cant do their duties in group content lable it to defend themselves.3 -
Ceat_VonStrifeSoul ShrivenArsenic_Touch wrote: »
Recount wasn't the issue in wow. All end game content revolved around doing certain amount of damage in a specific amount of time. If someone was under performing, the entire group would fail.
Gearscore was the problem because even if your gearscore was below the "threshold" that people wanted you could still do competitive dps, but people wouldn't invite you because you didn't get that RNG item drop to up your score.
That's what ruined the community.
LFD/LFR is what ruined the community. Once you remove the accountability of the player being a jackhole, that is where the community begins to split. Before random matchmaking, if you were an screw up or a jerk you just wouldn't get invited back to groups.0 -
scruffycavetroll✭✭✭alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »Hello everyone!
Both me and my friend want to play the same build but he has more time so he made it up to VR8... when he started grouping for Dungeons.
He managed to clear a few before finding a group that had a dps meter and after the 1st boss they told him to get better dps as he was lagging behind the other sorcerer - the other sorcerer was using his own hp to have mana and spam Crystal Fragments over and over from what it looked like.(i was at his place watching him play)
At the 2nd boss he got booted out because his 380 dps was too little(he had to move a bit) and they said they are bringing another ranged caster sorc to replace him.
Melee is currently too weak, it should do more damage because the risk you take by being in melee range is huge - in the VR ranks mobs can 2-3 shot you while a caster spamming ranged spells doesn`t even get hit. GW 2 balanced this by making melee do more damage to compensate for the time they have to run getting into melee range or chasing the boss.
I see people with melee weapons getting killed all the time in VR content while magic ranged builds just CC them to death or when bored just AOE them with no problem.
With Craglorn coming up i doubt most guilds will even bother with melee physical damage build and just ask them to respec as right now nothing beats the Crystal Shard spammers and other magic builds.
ahhh, and now the days of the MMO elitists will begin...great, now grouping will become "whats your gear score?" all over again.3 -
I wouldn't mind an area where I can actually tweak my single target build (I play a 2h templar - 5 med/2 hvy). Lately, I've noticed a few things. Some spells I use in single target fights are a DPS loss, but an overall Group DPS+ (odd). I feel if I want a big "numbers" on my screen, I can push the dps meter very high with a good opener (critical charge from stealth). This start's me off at an inflated 1000 dps.
Right now, I use vampires bane, cleave and an axe to apply "dots", uppercut, executioner to damage, flame shield to give the healer breathing room. Single target fights I can get around 300-400 dps (vet4 @ spinddle boss #2). My dps loss usually comes from keeping power of the light on the boss.
Any suggestions?
As an edit, I've cleared spindle and BC (havent tried fungal). I've also got the achievements from Spindle. So while my dps isn't "elite" I bring a lot of group viability that isn't accounted for on the meters.Edited by oxygen_boarderb16_ESO on May 5, 2014 1:16PMToktok - Vet8 Orc Templar - 2 Hand, Medium/Heavy Armor Grunt - Blacksmith/Clothier/Enchanter/Alchemist0 -
Hrithmus✭✭✭If your computer is running slowly you run a system diagnostic or replace it, if your car is making a funny noise you take it to get serviced or replace it, if your group member is unable to perform their task to the appropriate standard you run a dps meter to see where the problem is or you replace them. This whole elitism thing is something people who cant do their duties in group content lable it to defend themselves.
Hahahaha this is funny. Your unreal. Should i submit my resume to them as well? The DPS meter is dumb. I'm a tank so im not really worried about it at all but in other games i have seen people quit.
DPS meters are a way for some nerd to say "Look, im doing the most damage, im UBER. Your not and you suck" The ingame community is really really bad. People selling EVERYTHING to make some gold. Not helping each other. Scamming people. If it gets real bad with UBER players i'll just simply stop playing. Easy as that.
This is a video game. If you consider yourself Elite that's sad. If your make 800k a year in real life THEN you can be considered among the elite. Once the game stops being fun or full of elitism pigs i will stop.6 -
Darzil✭✭✭
Oh, absolutely. I don't know about all games (or this one), but certainly recall that dps races in LOTRO were more about keeping enemy debuffs on the target and group buffs on the group than maximising damage as individuals. The synergies, not the individual scores, were the key.oxygen_boarderb16_ESO wrote: »Some spells I use in single target fights are a DPS loss, but an overall Group DPS+ (odd).
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Axewaffle✭✭✭
Hahahaha this is funny. Your unreal. Should i submit my resume to them as well? The DPS meter is dumb. I'm a tank so im not really worried about it at all but in other games i have seen people quit.
DPS meters are a way for some nerd to say "Look, im doing the most damage, im UBER. Your not and you suck" The ingame community is really really bad. People selling EVERYTHING to make some gold. Not helping each other. Scamming people. If it gets real bad with UBER players i'll just simply stop playing. Easy as that.
This is a video game. If you consider yourself Elite that's sad. If your make 800k a year in real life THEN you can be considered among the elite. Once the game stops being fun or full of elitism pigs i will stop.
1) You misused the word 'your' I think you mean 'you're'
2) Your argument is based on 'DPS meter is dumb' truly the words of a poet.
3) You dont need to be elite in a video game, but you need to be a team player, people who under perform are not team players, they are selfish players in a multiplayer community.
4) You will not be missed if you leave, I guarantee it.1 -
Napkins✭pecheckler wrote: »Link to the add-on that displays other players DPS please, because I don't believe you.
On the topic, I hate grouping with melee nightblades, they are simply inferior to melee templars and dragonknights who have many viable melee damage builds. Ranged nightblades however, especially those who play full support are great.
The only effective melee night blade i've ever seen was using heavy and medium armor with a 2 hander, using brawler for damage shield plus immovable brute and ring of preservation.
Melee nightblades are inferior really? Having run about 15ish v dungeons (most successful, some not) the highest dps i've seen was a dw nightblade. He did insane dmg. One of the vamp boss attempts we were all dead cept for him and he took off like 15% of his health alone in about a min. I have no idea what skills he was using but it really was working out.
More dmg than all the ranged sorcs i've run into so far.
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Shillen✭✭✭This dps meters destroy games... they force players, with disturbing ways, to play the way THEY want, not the way the player plays his game, if players dont comply with their sadistic appetites, they kick away players and there is allot of frustration. I havent seen anything in game yet... Swtor does have 1 but its not 100% accurate, because bioware prohibits that.
If i see people like that ingame, is more likely that I will block them and ignore them, such as bots. I have them in the same category as bots, because they act, their character is like a robot. I never allow anybody to tell me how to play my game. I ignore them... either ways I play as a healer, but this latency destroying it some times.
As far as I can see, dps is not the issue in ESO bosses, so its worthless. ESO bosses, need you to be versitile and move and find a way to do it... its not like " DPS DPS FAST FAST"... its not like that.
Games have always been about figuring out the best way to use the game mechanics to beat the content. They are not supposed to be do whatever you feel like and win.
Please LOL my comments. I'm an aspiring comedian.1 -
concobar✭✭✭Rending slash has a great bleed effect, when it works.I will still look across the lands from my perch at Arrius, Nerf or no I will still be the Night. I may not be the hero Ebonheart Pact wanted but I will be the hero Ebonheart pact deserves.0 -
Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »i hate being lied to. they said these type of addons were not allowed to get thru.
No one lied, the API functions are not allowed now. However we can still tell when you're doing jack in the dungeon, you aren't fooling anyone saying the mobs are dying quickly when they aren't
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As to the thread topic, melee is actually extremely strong DPS in this game. I'll leave the specs as an exercise for the reader, but NB's are the best single-target in the game both sustained and burst as melee fighters.-First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
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-In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.2 -
Nooblet✭✭✭✭Not sure how this thread got so many posts. It's title does not match the post. A player was booted after failed attempts of the dungeon. It may or may not be related to being melee. They may have simply stated that in order to be nicer than saying... You suck, we would like to complete this so bye.
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Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
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Games have always been about figuring out the best way to use the game mechanics to beat the content. They are not supposed to be do whatever you feel like and win.
Quoted for truth. And to the person you're quoting, you wanting to force us to play with your broken, poorly-planned spec and effectively carry you is telling us how to play. You're contradicting yourself right off the bat
. P.S. a dead boss does no damage and thus requires no healing, so yes, DPS matters. Longer fights inherently mean stretched resources and more chance for error. Edited by Attorneyatlawl on May 5, 2014 2:16PM-First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
________________
-In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.3 -
rdfarley89✭✭✭2 hand melee DPS dragonknight is strong in AOE, I would say single target melee DPS doesn't matter. Also as I saw many people saying DPS addons cannot determine other people's DPS, they were full of ***.1 -
Ladrik✭The ridiculous part in all of this, is how the Bots have been used in dungeons. All I have seen recently, has been this type of set-up, just go in with a staff and bombs away. Doesn't matter what is going on around them, kill everything.
As per the melee Issue, I play a NightBlade, it is truly saddening that i can barely kill an opponent in melee combat or play the part as a DPSer. I have tried out using heavy armor and turning into a heavy metal death knight, my survival goes up, yet my damage is further down.0 -
Feidam✭✭✭The standard group I run with is me healing, a tank and one melee, and one melee ranged hybrid. We have yet to find content we couldn't complete. Melee's damage isn't the problem. The problem is really noticeable when I pug is that melee feel they don't have to move and try block all boss attacks. Melee character spec'd for pve can dish some serious damage. Using a pvp oriented build in a dungeon will work but is inferior. There are enough skills that you can easily have builds optimized for both arenas of play. I have seen people setting up groups stating melee need not respond and they are only hurting themselves IMO.Edited by Feidam on May 5, 2014 2:31PM3 -
Melee is definitely not weak, I have been running vet dungeons multiple times a day for the past 3 days and I know the damage I'm doing and it's not low...at all. With that said I change my skills for given bosses or areas (and I'm sure most people who are good at this game do as well). Sometimes I sacrifices dps for survivability, other times sacrifices single target dps for aoe damage. You work with your group, and just tell them you're changing skills. It all varies.
With that said, I'm on the fence about things like 'inspecting' players equipment. On one hand, I like to know who I'm grouped with, on the other the community would degrade to "You're under the hp we'd like you to be? Booted".
I was once with a vet7 sorcerer in vet spindle, and he kept dying...on everything. We were asking him why, and figured he had about 1200hp. Obviously we kicked him and replaced him, but thats because he does not meet the standards of the group.2 -
gladen5rwb17_ESO✭✭✭I play a sorcerer. Many times my skills would stop working and the only fix is to hit escape to get them working again. If I am not mistaken this happens to all classes. In the middle of a heated battle with lots of graphics going on I miss that my skills are not firing causing dps loss on a huge scale.
Asking for adjustments to skills or nerfing them at this time is impractical. Getting everything working first then assessing what ones damage is would be the most common sense pathway right now.
Priorities matter.
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Anastasia✭✭✭✭This dps meters destroy games... complaint is, that the group finder at least in veteran ranks, its not good at all!
...It makes groups without healing and tanks! If many dps apply for grouping up, the system is making groups without tanks and heal!! I am a healer, but I ended up with 3 players, all dps.
**** 1 of the dps players, was able to tank. Thats how we did it.***
YES>>>>>PEOPLE NEED MORE THAN ONE TRICK IN THEIR BAG OF BUILDS!
...All the dungeons I ve played in ESO, bosses, just need different approach, not high dps. If you are clever and approach it differently each time something goes wrong, u dont need DPS freakshows.
Group finder is fine...just, DIFFERENT. It seems to be set up to figure that four players want to play and have the necessary know how to SWITCH UP THEIR BUILDS/HOTBAR/WEAPS when heading into group content to accomplish the goal.
MIGHT THAT NECESSITATE ONE OR TWO WIPES WHILE .... FIGURING out the dungeon/content???? Yea. Its okay. One day you too will be a vet, telling stories about walking barefoot up the hill in the snow on the way to a great, challenging group fight that your group members put their heads together about and CLAIMED THAT MOBS ASS!
I'm telling you/some of you, THIS IS THE FUN PART! Once there are a million guides with recipe steps, eh, you do it if you need the content, but find little to no pleasure in being the umpteenth thousandth person who 'figured it out by using Dulfy's Hot Mess Guide to Dungeon Number 11 in TESO.
Don't call only for nerfs. Of course adjustments will need to be made by devs in a new MMO over time. But right now, in the fifth week after launch -- GLORY IN IT...take what ya got, pull up your johnnies and figure the shiz out. That is NOT reinventing the wheel either; using your own brain cells or coordinating with others to figure something out is a GOOD THING. (*Not counting the semi-pro Beta players from the last year, cause they already got to do that!)
THIS IS LITERALLY ONE OF THE MAJOR BEST REASONS TO BE IN ON THE GROUND FLOOR OF A "NEW" MMO! Do eet. Be the man/Femme!
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Nightscar✭✭
Hahahaha this is funny. Your unreal. Should i submit my resume to them as well? The DPS meter is dumb. I'm a tank so im not really worried about it at all but in other games i have seen people quit.
DPS meters are a way for some nerd to say "Look, im doing the most damage, im UBER. Your not and you suck" The ingame community is really really bad. People selling EVERYTHING to make some gold. Not helping each other. Scamming people. If it gets real bad with UBER players i'll just simply stop playing. Easy as that.
This is a video game. If you consider yourself Elite that's sad. If your make 800k a year in real life THEN you can be considered among the elite. Once the game stops being fun or full of elitism pigs i will stop.
I would have to agree.. I hated the DPS meter in WoW.. It ruined my game play.
And if I start getting kicked for low dps then the report for harassment button will become my friend.
I implore anyone else who is getting kicked for this reason to do the same.
@Axewaffle
ST*U
You want to be leet to some pixels on a screen.. go play CoD with the rest of the brainless generation, who keep ruining MMo's yr after yr.
My only hope is that people like you will eventually get sick of ESO and go play something else.
I hear Star Citizen is being made specifically for you!
In the meantime.. do the world a favor.. pull your lip up over your head.. and swallow
K
Thx
Bye!Edited by Nightscar on May 5, 2014 3:10PM4 -
ThisOnePosts✭✭✭✭✭Everyone going nerf crazy. While you're at it, nerf shield-bash, nerf countless sorc abilities, make those who decide to be healers do very little damage, tanks should not be able to do as much damage as DPS, and so on. Nerf a large number of DK and Templar abilities too. Really nothing to nerf on NB sadly, since most of it is broken. Also reduce werewolf speed. Fix Vamp passives. There, then you'll have a balanced game.1 -
Axewaffle✭✭✭"go play CoD witht he rest of the brainless generation" - @Nightscar
You then go on to use poor grammar, incorrect spelling, and unnecessary abbreviations to poorly communicate not an argument to help logically depict what you are thinking on the topic but a blatent personal attack, to which you have no credible evidence. This is typical behaviour of someone who has poor intelectual capacity, and has no solid grounds for their argument.
The game is a team based game, work as a team or play a single player one.4 -
Soloeus✭✭✭✭✭
✭alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »
MMO`s usually use a risk vs reward type of balancing aka if you are a ranged class who takes little to no risk to kill the mob you will do less damage compared to the melee type of character who takes a lot more damage and(in ESO) doesn`t have a hard CC built into his main nuke spell.
If they make melee type characters do less damage NOBODY would play them as they would get kicked out of dungeons like they are now so in the end a lot of people who enjoy playing that would leave. WOW did the smart thing, its called balance...
I get that you want ranged character to be more powerful because you play one but if you think about it a melee player will want melee to be stronger. Since the devs can`t make them both happy they just make them both do the same damage(balancing them) while usually giving the melee more options to survive taking damage and the ranged class more ways to kite.
ESO has Rapid Gear Decay which means the "no risk" is out the window. You still have serious risk just for being there. Healing is terrible, and you can only heal with potions (which sucks) or Resto Staff (Healing Springs). Meanwhile, I see melee guys using their "pull" ability to pull people off oil during sieges. I see melee guys using their ability to jump to you to leap all over the field stunning everything. Destro Staff is pathetic right now. Its abilities are weak and when you try to aim, half the time, a garbage monster gets targeted in the last second or you shoot so slow the enemies move.
Archery is real power, Snipe is easily the best stand alone ability right now. That would be worth talking about. Vamp Bat Spam is also worth talking about. But this hate against sorcerers is silly. And there are just some mobs where impulse is the only thing you can do if you want to survive combat.
Within; Without.0 -
ScardyFox✭✭✭✭✭1) You misused the word 'your' I think you mean 'you're'
2) Your argument is based on 'DPS meter is dumb' truly the words of a poet.
3) You dont need to be elite in a video game, but you need to be a team player, people who under perform are not team players, they are selfish players in a multiplayer community.
4) You will not be missed if you leave, I guarantee it.
His typo doesn't change the fact your initial post was absurd - followed by another post steeped in absurdity.
Outstanding.
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Mephiston87✭✭As a tank all i know is i love tanking melee bosses and completely fear caster bosses, magic blows through my shield/stam bar quite fast I have to rely on any temps spear shards if we have one in group to keep my stam/shield up or just make do and swap puncture for iner fire and use my whole stam bar for shield alone. wheras melee bosses i can generally keep up shield and punctures fine.0 -
Soloeus✭✭✭✭✭
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His typo doesn't change the fact your initial post was absurd - followed by another post steeped in absurdity.
Outstanding.
He also doesn't use commas where he should. He uses apostrophes instead of quotations. Then he misses an apostrophe in the 3), and is telling others how to play the game. Aside from his own grammar failures, this fail troll does make one important point just not the one he wanted to make:
This forum has a lot of bullies, and this form of typical bullying behaviors and these kind of posts need to be reported. The bullies enjoy doing it, they aren't going to stop unless someone makes them. The community isn't going to clean itself, you know. But we can demand change, identify and label it, and report always.
Edited by Soloeus on May 5, 2014 3:46PM
Within; Without.2 -
I am seeing a lot about Crystal fragment spam and iam finding it amusing because it doesn't do a grate deal of dmg alone and it would be pointless spamming it because its morphed ability doesn't proc off its self so what your more than likely seeing is a ;-
velocious curse 3.5 seconds to explode
Crystal fragments 1.3 second cast ( while casting you cant dodge )
Crystal fragment again (at this point VC explodes)
Endless fury spam below 20%
The down side to this and melee won't see it is the CF casting if the sorc is in any aoe he can't just dodge out the way or run out the way he has to Block 2sec dodge 2sec and in some cases run like hell by the time the caster using CF has re-positioned the melee should have been back on the boss for along time attacking.
So you see 3 spells there most CF users also have to use
Inner light 20% crit but it reduces base magicka by 5 but as a spell is really a passive ability and dose no dmg.
And in the last slot is either Equilibrium/Dark exchange or some other form of magicka gaining ability so another that you can't do dmg with.
If you think that the single target dmg from using the 1st 3 spells is op then yeah nerf it but what I would say is that they might be slightly stronger to allow for the fact you cant use 2 other ability slots and the casting time it self leaves a caster wide open to attack.
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crush83✭✭✭✭I also played as a Dragon Knight dual-wield with some minimal casting. I had no problem pumping out high DPS, and would sometimes out damage casters.0
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Custos91✭✭✭neocomab16_ESO wrote: »
First of all, get to 50, do vet dungeons, tell me again about DPS not being important.
Second, I know and it is totally fine for you when you pretty much suck at your role as a DPS because you want to fulfill your personal phantasy of being an ineffective something. I get that. But here is the deal. This is an MMO. That includes multiplayer. Multiplayer means more people than just you. So, if you want to play stuff that is designed for player number = 4, then you will have to play by the rules and thus perform in order to not *** off your entire group.
If you find 3 others just like you and you wipe over and over again because the tank prefers to wear cloth, the healer tries to heal with a 2handed axe and you want to dps with a resto staff, that is totally fine. But if that ever happens (and I hope it wont for the sake of other players) dont complain about content being too hard.
And finally, if you dont want to adjust your setup for grouping, play solo but stick to it. Simple as that. There will always be tight enrage timers to beat so better get used to it or play a single player game, or never join a group - ever.
actually many tanks are wearing cloth armor afterwards, because passives/ actives from DK and sorc will just hardcap you with only plate armor... if you get more cloth armor, you will have a much better dmg mittigation xD
I would rather have a player with brain, who does not do the same dmg as every other player I meet, but lives a lot longer and is able to slot defensive abbilitys or a heal or two xD
And for your information, you can do every single Vet boss without a tank...
Some, like half of banished cells, can even be soloed by some tanks, so much for the dps race^^
You can skip the second boss in spindle, and avoid the adds ath the third keeper in BC so if there is a DPS race, then the endboss at fungal xD
BUT, at this fight every player with more movement is a better choice then a pure dps person, will save you many soulgems^^
DPS is not an issue, I play templar healer, I can get 200 dps and more by just using a backlash morph on the mob, with that bonus dps, you can carry every player through all of the dungeons, you might skipp the gargoyle, but otherwise you will be fine xD
Can't say something for the other vet dungeons, will hit VR 6 tomorow...
Btw, dual wield meele NB seems to do more dmg than bow xDWarden Main apparently... 7 Wardens currently, otherwise a healer of every class.
Mostly active in No CP PVP on EU, blaming the buffbot meta in pve.
I want to feel like I am saving somebodies life, not like I am carrying amunition for them...2