Melee is so weak they are getting booted out of Dungeon Groups

xentek_ESO

Shouldn't this whole thread be a non-issue? I mean the core complaint is how damage meters are evil and kicked his poor friend who is underpowered and needs a buff. Since we know that the damage meters line is bull, and I would LOVE for someone to prove me wrong by actually linking to a working party damage parser, it brings the rest of this guy's claim into question.

ESO doesn't have damage meters, because if they did, then we would actually know for a fact that the tank is doubling our damage and that the Sorc is spamming 1 key to victory and probably trippling our damage. That said, if that really is the case and we're the difference between a smooth run and chain wiping, we absolutely should get kicked. We should get super mad about it and demand answers from Zenimax.

However, the same crowd complaining of being kicked from dungeons are the very same people that don't want damage meters to prove that they ARE contributing, or to know when they're not so that they can fix the problem. Worse, if you knew that picking up a bow would turn you into a dps king, and you actively choose to do half the damage because you like daggers, that's extremely selfish on your part to expect others to do what you're unwilling to in order to carry you through content.

Lets get everything working first, please. Then we can see where the balance is. The content is going down. Otherwise we just end up where an ability gets fixed later and throws it all off again.

Davngr

xentek_ESO wrote: »

Shouldn't this whole thread be a non-issue? I mean the core complaint is how damage meters are evil and kicked his poor friend who is underpowered and needs a buff. Since we know that the damage meters line is bull, and I would LOVE for someone to prove me wrong by actually linking to a working party damage parser, it brings the rest of this guy's claim into question.

ESO doesn't have damage meters, because if they did, then we would actually know for a fact that the tank is doubling our damage and that the Sorc is spamming 1 key to victory and probably trippling our damage. That said, if that really is the case and we're the difference between a smooth run and chain wiping, we absolutely should get kicked. We should get super mad about it and demand answers from Zenimax.

However, the same crowd complaining of being kicked from dungeons are the very same people that don't want damage meters to prove that they ARE contributing, or to know when they're not so that they can fix the problem. Worse, if you knew that picking up a bow would turn you into a dps king, and you actively choose to do half the damage because you like daggers, that's extremely selfish on your part to expect others to do what you're unwilling to in order to carry you through content.

Lets get everything working first, please. Then we can see where the balance is. The content is going down. Otherwise we just end up where an ability gets fixed later and throws it all off again.

What you don't seem to understand is that a group wide damage parser IS NOT NEEDED to realize that close range melee damage is vastly INFERIOR to range damage.

This is not a non-issue this is HUGE balance disparity.

It's sad that developers let this crap go into live, this should have been nipped at the bud in beta. I know I made feedback request for better balance between range and melee damage after playing sorc and nb.

Sakiri

Melee is always inferior because of movement requirements anyway.

If ranged have to move tbut melee dont, the answer is to move ranged to melee range.

Typically melee does more damage than ranged in every other game in a strict turn and burn fight because of the imbalance from movement but it exacerbated here by poor damage from stamina based weapon abilities in general. Now couple this with broken nightblade passives and you have even more issues.

The solution to this that I see involves increasing the scale factor for sta weapons or scaling down magicka. Playing with full class abilities vs full weapon abilities, just damage(no buffs etc) should be equal. Theyre not.

sarnox

Arsenic_Touch's post pretty much state everything I had in mind, well put.

Attorneyatlawl

dusan.rusnak89eb17_ESO wrote: »

Well speaking as NB melee dual wielder i can confirm... I`m in full unique/legendary enchanted set gear (v10 ofc), spent decade playing MMO's therefor I believe I CAN say that I know what to do ( always aimed for bis and being among the best) and I can honestly say that e.g my damage output is nowhere near sorcerors , not to mention that he is capable of doing that much of a damage w/o having to worry at all from distance ...

every DK in this topic is gonna say that melee is fine.. yep well it is as long as you play fully functional char that can dish out tons of damage in pretty much any situation and yet still able to take alot of damage..

I've created NB because it fits my playstyle the most.. I dont wanna be forced to reroll for DK (not to mentions the days of pure playtime which I no longer have that I'd have to invest into getting him to v10 , getting all skyshards , quests etc all over again.) to be able to play the game as it was intented to play..

Gear can't make up for spec and skill. Night blades put the best dps for single target out in the game right now when built and played right.

NextGame

Reenlister wrote: »

Tell me where I have stressed my setup is more important?
Your speaking quite frankly out of your fourth point of contact.
You seem to be quite guilty of this yourself. As you seem to be only focused on the mystical build.
And you have no idea my DPS.

So which is it then?

DPS is not important and therefore people should run whichever build they like meaning that personal build is more important than the group objective.

Or

There is a group requirement on flexibility and therefore build is important, and as speedy resolution to encounters is desired, and indeed some dungeon bosses are a DPS checks, and others are attrition meaning that longer fights are bad news, reflecting that DPS is important?

After all you did state:

Reenlister wrote: »

This whole how much dps do you do is stupid.

-

Ultimately when I group, I don't run around worrying over who has what for a DPS because it is a group. That means working toward a goal, not again, a business setup.

Players who have run content several times want to get through it as quickly as possible and not hand hold others to get through the same content. This is human nature.

In ESO terms melee DPS is pretty much pathetic (Nightblade in particular which is bad regardless of which build is attempted). Whereas Sorceror sits top of the class. Logically Sorcerors are/will be the DPS of choice and other classes professing to be filling a DPS role will not be getting taken anywhere. I'm not trying to dictate that this will happen, I am stating that this will happen as this is what happens in every single other MMO that has 1 class that is simply better than others at a particular role.

As an anecdote: We ran banished cells & spindleclutch over the weekend with 2 groups.

Group A had a DK tank VR6, Templar Healer VR5 and 2 Nightblades VR5 (me) + VR3 and had serious trouble on DPS checks, fights with lots of boss centred aoe, and longer fights that required ongoing survivability. I went into this one with 130 grand soul gems and came out with 60ish

On Group B swapped out the VR3 NB for a VR1 Sorc fresh out of Molag Bal and both dungeons were suddenly significantly easier due to the Sorceror's sheer dps, survivability (ranged) & utility advantages. They are just hands down better than any other class at DPS. I came out of this run with 60 soul gems, only a few less than I went in with.

Similarly, my own sorcerer is just strolling its way through every single piece of content as I level it up (fact of online gaming: if something is good, use it) It is light years ahead of melee based classes, for PvE at least.

The difference between damage output between classes (and individual builds) is blatant; this is why as balance stands at the present time, groups will generally cease taking melee into dungeons and replace them with Sorcerors when taking group members that they have no personal attachments to.

If I find someone who is struggling guess what, I take the time to speak to them and tell / show what I have found to work. Its called mentoring instead of bashing them to the ground.

Not my job to teach others how to play. I'm here to play the game, not play it for others by proxy. It is their responsibility to understand how to play. The general MMO trend of employing established "cookie cutter" builds is what empowers latecomers to get into this kind of content.

Go ahead and play your little CEO of the MMO group role.

???? I will have HR mail out your P45 with immediate effect, I guess? Not sure where you are going with this whole business thing, but I'm not into roleplay, sorry

And do explain to me how one dungeon run with someone who may be not 'optimized' is going to result in you carrying them through the content? Maybe that 5 ( OMGosh so long! ) minutes you take out of your oh so busy schedule will actually help them to be better.

See previous answer. If someone comes into a dungeon with me, and cannot perform their role means that the dungeon takes longer, possibly goes unfinished, the other 3 have to pick up the slack for the guy who doesn't have any idea what they are doing, and will cost more in resource (repairs, soul gems etc.) in order to complete the dungeon. If someone cannot perform their role, they have no business being there.

Unfortunately, on top of this, in ESO the game balance & mechanics are actually against melee DPS being viable in the first place.

Chirru

As far as i see it ...all the NB needs is a little more survivability. Give NB a valid, combat breaking escape move...or make the class take more damage before it falters...either way would be fine. As it is, the NB is so squishy that it is comparable to the Sorc. Naturally that does not go down well with a melee weapon.

Assassin way is..in and out and gone. The current NB way is: get in and stay and be dead with almost everything that is more than two, and four is death assured.

Yes, yes...you can be a Vamp and do better. You can get Mage and Fighter-guild skills and do better, you can get top gear and do better, or you are an exceptionally skilled player and do better...still, the basic NB class right now is a wimp compared to other classes.

Razzak

The problem of melee damage and survivability Vs ranged damage and survivability is nothing new in MMORPG games. One of the problems lies in combat mechanics and trinity.
Tanks are usually melee oriented, bosses usually attack tanks with melee skills, healers and support classes usually don't use melee skills.
All of that means that bosses usually do most damage in their melee range. The result of that is this difference we see as ranged can "stand in one spot" and dish their damage unmolested while melee classes have to leave their damage dealing area due to Boss's AOE. That's highly simplified, of course, but I think it's part of the core of the problem.
The simplest solution is to buff melee damage dealing skills, but that is a solution only for group content as ranged skills would suddenly become sub par in solo PVE content.
One possible solution is to make adds attack everyone else, but tank. They should especially target ranged classes, as then melee classes coming to help them will become more important and their damage more valuable.

Kililin

Could i please get a source for the group dps parser?
Obviously common knowledge is, it is not possible since late beta.
Everyone claiming otherwise is very cryptic and obscure, please state how this is possible.

Oberon wrote: »

The problem is that in a fit of poor design, Zenimax placed a timer and a leader board into the Trials (raids). If you end up high on the leader board at the end of the week, you get 50% more loot than other players (1 extra loot drop over the 2 you got from doing the two Trials).

This massive increase in loot will absolutely lead to serious min/maxing along with cheating, hacking, exploiting and anything else that will result in fast Trial times. It is inevitable, all caused by the timer + leader board bonus loot.

If you don't have massive dps output, you won't be welcome to a good Trials group. Inferior just doesn't cut it when 50% more loot is at stake. Currently, melee is just flat out inferior.

I don't like it, nor do I like timers or leader boards being related in any way to actual loot gains, but that's how it is.

Could you please provide a source for the loot claim? Or did you experience it first hand on PTS? Also what is high?

---

For such a thing you will either be able to follow mechanics and still dish out dps.

In fact even generally, high dps is no excuse for standinng in red and vice versa, i really don't get the notion that dps meters are not needed because of other things, like the proverbial not standing in red.

I still think that dps meters are not really needed in group content, because there you can simply see and feel how the other group members perform, but raids are a different beast, and submitting parses to some external tool is unnecessary hassle, imo.

ShintaiDK

The latest excuse to leave melee out of groups is they cant spam immoveable to avoid any CC plus having greater spell and armour resists than any melee can substain.

Cously

Melee is weaker than mages. Sounds like all MMOs, sounds like the cinematics, sounds like it should be. I still didn't try VR content, but don't you need a melee to do the tanking? I'd suggest to you get friends. I'm not saying you don't have friends I mean friends for grouping. I have a list of people I grouped with, in guild, in PUGs and if we work good together I just give them a call and they come as I go when they need.

concobar

I think it is funny that all the people who left WoW for ESO want ESO to become WoW.

reggielee

Feidam wrote: »

The standard group I run with is me healing, a tank and one melee, and one melee ranged hybrid. We have yet to find content we couldn't complete. Melee's damage isn't the problem. The problem is really noticeable when I pug is that melee feel they don't have to move and try block all boss attacks. Melee character spec'd for pve can dish some serious damage. Using a pvp oriented build in a dungeon will work but is inferior. There are enough skills that you can easily have builds optimized for both arenas of play. I have seen people setting up groups stating melee need not respond and they are only hurting themselves IMO.

qft... the number of times I have seen melee just continue to stand in red aoes or let a heavy attack get them is staggering

Hesperant

LazerusKI wrote: »

What was his class? out of curiosity.
With my NB i have the same problem, because most of our skills do not work. Reapers Mark as an example or anything that applies a status effect.

Im still wondering why there is no "sneak attack" mechanik (like skyrim) that gives at least a small bonus when attacking from behind. would make a huge difference when you consider the risk of melee compared to ranged.

but yeah...currently one of the best groups is made with 3 tanks and one heal i think...shieldbash for the win -.-

There is a sneak attack component in this game. Whenever I strike from concealment at their side or back with a ranged weapon the damage is considerable.. However when I charge this extra damage component does not appear. I have seen a NightBlade decimate with their teleport strike on a stealth to the side or back.

Corithna

Reenlister wrote: »

NextGame wrote: »

Reenlister wrote: »

This whole how much dps do you do is stupid.

False.

Firstly: So long as dps race mechanics are in place in pve boss fights your dps is relevant, as lack thereof can prevent you and potentially your party from progressing through the game. When you encounter these bosses, such as VR Spindleclutch boss #2, the game is telling you that you are expected to be doing a certain level of dps as a group. DPS meters are important as they are the only tool that you can have to ensure that you can tweak your character and playstyle to hit that baseline. Excluding this tool from the game only serves to harm endgame progression and leave everyone wondering whether they are grouping with decent players or a bunch of hams, or indeed if they are the ham (if you play nightblade, you are probably the ham).

2nd: once a player has completed certain repeatable content, they tend to want to move through it as fast as possible in the future, and higher dps is the answer to that. This is where bads traditionally start getting upset as no group that understands what they are doing wants to take them anywhere as their attitude is "dps level doesn't matter", and expect the rest of the group to carry them. This holds said group back and risks wasting a lot of time in dungeons that would be a cakewalk when taking someone else. Why should 3 other players time be wasted because of 1 players inconsideration?

Bottom line, this game needs group dps/heal meters to be returned as an available function to the community. People who don't want to use it obviously wouldn't need to, and can go group with similarly minded people, and just suck it up that other players are more willing to put time into making their character effective. But there's no real reason that the choice shouldn't be there for those who *do* want to play effectively other than sheer petty mindedness. Stop holding people back.

So basically, I am wrong, because I don't write a long dissertation on how this must be approached as a business function?
Gotta hurry through?
Why?
Guess I ll just take my N00B bad player attitude and hustle off with the others who obviously don't know how to 'play the game' correctly.
/shaking head
BTW Gotta love the 'play effectively' line.

@NextGame‌

Fist off you are both right and wrong in your assessment. Context matters greatly to the argument you are putting forth. For instance when utilizing LFG to find others to join you in a dungeon run it is only fair that whomever you end up with, you end up with. When you roll the dice and then decide that you don't like that dice roll it is inherently wrong to penalize others simply due to the state of their game play. However by the same token, but on it's flip side, when you take the time to form up a group yourself with clearly stated expectations and measures, but then find that you've been lied to or a player simply can not offer what was requested despite stating that they would do so then you are perfectly justified in replacing this player. Context matters. Lastly I'd advise you to learn to revise your use of the word 'bads' as a noun to describe players. It does nothing to better your case, and really only leads to confrontation. Clearly you are more articulate than this.

@Reenlister‌

Just as NextGame has some issues concerning when and where it is appropriate to attempt to enforce one's own standards upon other players, so to do you need to realize that there are many different types of people who play this title. For myself I like to start out fairly easy, and tend to reroll characters quite a bit until I find something that I like as I learn the system. Then slowly over time as I learn more and more about the game system I start to develop into one of those players who will travel through content at a quick pace having already seen and done everything in an area many times over.

To both of you: I find the best way to get into groups consistently with people whom I know will live up to the expectations I have. Be that a certain performance dps wise, or upholding certain standards of civility and social behavior. Is to build my own groups from guilds that I've joined or that I've formed up myself and filtered the membership myself. Understand that LFG is a grab bag in this respect. You should always do your level best during these runs, ask questions when and if you need to. And allow others the room they need to enjoy the game. When you find yourself in a run that is disagreeable to you it is usually most polite to excuse yourself and leave rather then make a big drama production out it. Do these things during your lfg runs and everyone you encounter will be much happier for it.

ShintaiDK

reggielee wrote: »

qft... the number of times I have seen melee just continue to stand in red aoes or let a heavy attack get them is staggering

qft... the number of times I have seen caster just continue to stand in red aoes or let a heavy attack get them is staggering

Shillen

Nightscar wrote: »

Hrithmus wrote: »

Axewaffle wrote: »

If your computer is running slowly you run a system diagnostic or replace it, if your car is making a funny noise you take it to get serviced or replace it, if your group member is unable to perform their task to the appropriate standard you run a dps meter to see where the problem is or you replace them. This whole elitism thing is something people who cant do their duties in group content lable it to defend themselves.

Hahahaha this is funny. Your unreal. Should i submit my resume to them as well? The DPS meter is dumb. I'm a tank so im not really worried about it at all but in other games i have seen people quit.

DPS meters are a way for some nerd to say "Look, im doing the most damage, im UBER. Your not and you suck" The ingame community is really really bad. People selling EVERYTHING to make some gold. Not helping each other. Scamming people. If it gets real bad with UBER players i'll just simply stop playing. Easy as that.

This is a video game. If you consider yourself Elite that's sad. If your make 800k a year in real life THEN you can be considered among the elite. Once the game stops being fun or full of elitism pigs i will stop.

I would have to agree.. I hated the DPS meter in WoW.. It ruined my game play.
And if I start getting kicked for low dps then the report for harassment button will become my friend.
I implore anyone else who is getting kicked for this reason to do the same.

Yeah, it's clearly not remotely harrassment so you're just wasting your time. People don't have to put up with you in their group.